Broadcasting live from Roberta's in Bushwick, Brooklyn. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network.com. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. I'm Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you every Tuesday from 12 to 1245, live from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Calling all of your questions, cooking or non-cooking, tech or non-tech related, to 718-497-2128.
That's 718-497-2128. Currently joining the studio as normal with uh Nastasha, the Hammer Lopez, the Hammer of Cooking Issues. Hi, Nastasha. Hi. In a couple of minutes, we're going to be joined by Superstar Chris Young, who's coming live from the main stage last uh yesterday at Star Chefs.
This being the Star Chefs edition of Cooking Issues. Uh so he did his main stage demonstration at the uh International Chef's Congress yesterday, and he'll be here in a couple minutes. He's on the BQE right now, caught in Brooklyn traffic. He's not from Brooklyn, so I think he doesn't realize how awful it can be getting around Brooklyn sometimes when you need to get somewhere, right, Nastasha? Right.
Right. Anyway, uh so uh make sure uh you know Chris Young, uh one of the authors of the mega cookbook, Modernist Cuisine, uh, will be here and he will answer any of your modernist cuisine or uh glider. Did you know that he's a glider pilot? No. Yeah, yeah.
He's like an avid glider pilot, like you know, catching thermals and all that, not like you know, little paper airplane gliders like the ones that he flies in. So he's an avid glider pilot, so if you have any questions about gliding or about uh anything else really, I guess, uh call in your questions to 718-497-2128, but think about him for a couple minutes, because it's gonna take him a couple minutes, probably to get here. But make sure you call in uh because that's gonna be fun. Okay, so uh what happened since last week? We had our uh fundraiser, right?
Yeah. Yeah, so the Museum of Food and Drink had a fundraiser at Mapesh Restaurant, which was uh I think an unqualified uh success in terms of I think the people really had a good time. Yes, they did. Yeah, they had a really good time. Mario Batali.
Mario Batale comes to the uh event and is was bidding like a lunatic in the auction. I mean, first of all, I don't know whether if I don't know whether you know this out there, but one of my skills is to go completely off my rocker bonkers lunatic during an auction situation. Would you would you agree that's one of my skills? Or at least crazy. Like if you want if if if what you want for your auctioneer is crazy, then I think in fact, at our next event, Snosh, see what you think about this.
At our next event, I think I'm gonna have as one of the auction items, I'll do an auction for you. Ooh, that's a good idea. Yeah. You like that? Like, I'll do like a charity auction for whatever your charity is.
Yeah, and yeah, yeah, right? Because I'm sure you know most people get like higher ticket items. They're like auctioning off like a country or something like that. Yeah, I I could definitely get that that money up there in terms of how much that country is gonna sell for as long as they give me the data on the country beforehand. I need the data.
I need to get jazzed up. I can get jazzed up about pretty much anything so long as I have the data. Okay, today's show again is being, and I don't mean that in a negative way, I'm just saying they must like us, which we appreciate. Today's show is brought to you again by the Modernist Pantry. I will read the I'll read the promo word for word.
Today's show is sponsored by the Modernist Pantry, supplying innovative ingredients for the modern cook. Do you love to experiment with new cooking techniques and ingredients, but hate to overspend for pounds of supplies when only a few grams are needed per application? Modernist Pantry has a solution. They offer a wide range of modern ingredients and packages that make sense for the home cook or enthusiast, and most cost only around five bucks, saving you time, money, and storage space. Whether you're looking for hydrocolloids, pH modifiers, or even meat glue, you'll find it at Modernist Pantry.
And if you need something that they don't carry, just ask. Chris Anderson and his team will be happy to source it for you. With worldwide shipping, Modernist Pantry is your one stop shop for innovative cooking ingredients. Fans of cooking issues that order $25 or more before next week's show will get a free bottle of Pectinex Ultra SPL, the miracle enzyme. Simply use the promo code CI56 when placing your order online at WWW modernistpantry.com.
Visitors modern visit modernistpantry.com today for all of your modernist cooking needs. How was that? Good? Jack, was that strong? It's pretty good.
Good? Alright. Stronger than some of your previous reads. Oh, jeez. Of this one or of different ones?
Different sponsors. Yeah, you know, I'm never gonna hear the end of it. Like, uh, listen, if you're gonna sponsor this show, right, and you're gonna make a piece of equipment that I've never used before, right? I'm just saying it's hard for me to get enthused. I can't make a claim for a piece of equipment that I've never used.
It's like not in my nature. It's just I can't do it. You know what I mean? Like, I don't mind shilling out and selling stuff that you know that I know I I agree with, that I know they make a good product, right? So, like, you know, I don't know, poly science.
I like their circulators, so I don't mind shilling for them. Do you know what I'm saying? But if I've never used your stuff before, how am I gonna sell it? Jack, you're still mad at me about that? Sorry, no, I'm not mad.
Alright, alright. Okay. I'm impressed that you've memorized seven of the ten digits in the phone number. Oh, yeah. By the way, guys, I still don't have the phone number for this show memorized.
I've had listeners who have it memorized. I don't have it memorized, but I'm getting very, very close. I'm just missing the f the middle three digits, and then we're gonna be good. Okay. Uh uh who said this question, by the way, Nastash, I don't have the name on the Ikijime.
You'll find it. So I have a question in uh from about Ikajime. Ikijime, by the way, is uh the fish killing technique uh that we that we use uh that we studied, uh Japanese style, uh and there's different levels of ikijime. Ikajimi really just means fish killing. But uh we use in particular a technique uh called Shinke Nuki, which means destroy the spine.
And the idea being that by destroying the spine of the fish, uh you you you basically what happens is is that the spine keeps sending messages to the muscles even after you've killed the brain. And so uh those messages that are getting sent to the muscles reduce the amount of ATP that's available that's it that's in the muscles because the muscles are using the ATP. The faster you use that up, the faster you go into rigor. The faster you go into rigor, typically the harder you go into rigor mortis. And fish muscle is so strong that uh, you know, it it's it it the strength of the contraction is strong enough to actually damage the muscle.
So when it comes out of rigor, uh if it if it goes into rigor very hard and very fast, um gets damaged, gets mushy. So if you're gonna serve uh a piece of fish, uh certain fish, and you do this thing with spinal cord ablation, shinkanuki, you can uh get a firmer textured fish. So that's that's what we're talking about. And here's the question. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on Ikajime and how much it would could really improve the flavor and texture of fish caught on a rod and reel.
I'm going to the Gulf Coast next week and hope to catch king mackerel, redfish, bluefish, and maybe some flounder and speckled trout. By the time a fish has landed, I will have been uh I will it will have been struggling against the line for maybe as long as 10 minutes or as few as thirty seconds. Big fish will be gaffed, then hauled up onto the fishing pier. At that point, the custom in the area is to whack it over the head and dispatch it, then throw it in the cooler. My question is to what extent can Ikijimi improve the outcome?
The fish will be stressed regardless of how it's subsequently treated. My plan would be to bring the fish to the pier, then either knife the brain or simply cut through the backbone blood vessels behind the head, then cut the tail, destroy the spinal column, and then bleed in ice water. An alternative would be to fillet immediately. If the cooler is too big for a whole fish, fingers crossed, because he wants a big fish. Then bleeding in ice water.
Any procedural suggestions would be appreciated. Okay. This is an excellent, excellent question. His name is Andy. Hey Andy.
This is an excellent question, Andy, because one of the things I've always wondered on IKime is the effect of post-catch stress on uh on an animal. Now, you obviously you want the animal to be as little stressed and as rested as is humanly possible. And that's not necessarily possible when you line catch something. I've had only one experience with uh line caught boat ikojimaid uh game fish in our waters, and that's in striped bass. So I did a shoot with uh Dave Chang uh for his iPad application.
I don't know if it's out yet or not. I don't know. Anyway, uh and uh one of the uh production assistants there uh fishes off of Montauk regularly, went out on a boat and got uh lime caught stripers and did Ikojime with the spinal cord ablation on uh one, and then basically, you know, uh whack over the head, gill cut, throw in a cooler with the other. And there was a definite difference in taste, the ikojime one being uh better, having a better texture. So that's only an N of one, so it's very hard to know uh whether or not it in all cases.
I mean, in other words, any time you get the fish and you do the ikajime, you're you're increasing the quality as much as possible. Would you like there to be less stress as the thing is being caught? Sure. But I think it's it's definitely getting uh you're definitely going to get some help, at least in the very small amount of experience I've had with line caught fish, uh Ikijime, there was a there was a difference. Um you know, obviously the ones that are struggling 30 seconds are going to be the best.
Also, you know, uh I would guess that the the bigger, stronger fish, the stronger a fish is, the kind of the more of effect you're gonna get. Now, listen, I really need you when you go to uh this is what I want you to do. Please, Andy, if you can do this for me, I want you to catch two bluefish. I mean, I know you can't control it, but I want you to catch two bluefish, and I want you to do ikijime on one, and I want you to not do ikijime on the other one. And I want you to tell me whether there is a difference on bluefish specifically.
The reason I'm interested in blue fish is bluefish is one whose texture and flavor can go off relatively quickly uh after it comes out of, you know, after it's killed. And I want to know whether ikijime can help with it, because it's also a fish that really isn't eaten, I don't think, in Japan. And so it could be really an American kind of test on this. Plus, I love bluefish. Some people don't like bluefish.
I love bluefish, and I've never been able to get uh Ikijime blue fish. So please, please test that. Now, uh instead of whacking over the head, uh, after you gaff the fish and bring it over, I would immediately uh I would spike its brain. Um and the reason is is that stops it from flopping around and it's very easy to hit as opposed to trying to do a gill cut. Right?
You could hit it over the head and then do the gill cut, but I think you're better off spiking the brain. That like kills it like this and takes away the stress, and then you have an easier time getting to the spinal cord. Now I would cut the spinal cord and the tail. I'm trying to learn how to go through the head of the fish to get the spinal cord, so you don't necessarily need to do the cut before you do the spinal cord ablation, but I'm not not quite there yet, because that's how they do it on tuna. Uh but uh so I would I would put it through the head first, then uh do the two cuts, put it through the spinal cord, and when you get it through the spinal cord, if you've never done it before, you can see the fish uh it'll do like a shimmy as the needle goes down.
So you know exactly how far the needle has gone down and and through the fish. So you you you know where you are. Now I would um if the cooler is not big enough, I think you're gonna have some problems. Here's why you don't want to cut open the fish. Uh cut it into pieces first.
You want the blood uh pumping, basically. You want the heart to help pump out the uh the the blood to really really really clean it out. So uh if you can, please don't chop it into pieces before you get it into the cooler. Maybe actually if you can get down to the water, you can just bleed it in the water where the fish is. I don't know how high up the pier is or whether you can get to the water.
Another suggestion gut it right there after you do the Ikijime, gut it. Uh as you after you open it up, bring a a stiff brush with you, uh, and then go under uh take your um take your knife and go and cut along the membrane that's on the underside of the spine to expose and cut open the blood vessels that are running underneath the spinal column and scrub that underwater with a brush to get all of that goopy stuff out because that goes uh off as well. I would pull the gills out immediately and then take it and ice it and put it in the thing. I think that's gonna be like Uber maximum quality. What do you think, Stuzz?
That's good. He also wanted to know one another thing. Oh, yeah, I haven't I haven't read a second. Oh no, but there's one more after that. One more after the other one that I'm about to read.
All right. Uh okay. So uh Andy also has a question on canning and pasteurization. It's a two-part question. He says most canning recipes call for the sealed jars to be processed for 10 minutes in boiling or simmering water, supposedly to kill any nasties and ensure a safe product.
And the low temperature charts on the bl on the blog, cookingissues.com, uh, which I realize are dedicated towards meat and poultry. Uh I say that anything over 74 degrees Celsius is instantly safe. Do I need to process in the water bath for 10 minutes to achieve sterility, or is the 10 minute cook more for textual reason? Um and then B, I did not use enough pickling liquor in a couple of jars, and subsequently not all of the pickled green beans are fully covered with a liquid. Is that a major problem?
Okay. Couple of things going on here. Uh so if you're gonna can okay. We're talking about pasteurization versus sterility, okay. Um you're processing something in first of all, if you're gonna can an item, if you want to achieve sterility, right?
You have to, you can't just boil in in simmering water. You have to uh sterilize that thing, which means you have to pressure cook it using uh you know recognized canning procedures. And those canning procedures are based on uh I think what's in the what's in the can or what's in the jar and how big the jar is, because you have to guarantee a certain temperature for a certain length of time at the center of your jar in order to kill any spores that are in there. So there are certain bacteria, and the one they're really worried about in canning is botulism, which uh which basically forms spores and can't be boiled out with normal boiling. You have to go well over the boiling temperature and actually sterilize.
Okay. Now, the reason you can do canning at lower temperatures without a pressure cooker in certain situations is because you have enough acidity present in your product to or salt or combination of salt and acidity to ensure that no botulism is going to grow in there. And if that's the case, you just need to kill off some of the easier to kill bacteria that aren't spore-forming, and all the spore-forming bacteria don't grow because of the very high salt content or very high acid content or both. So when you are boiling something or simmering it for 10 minutes at boil, you're just ensuring you're getting to that high of a temperature. That's not really a sterilization procedure.
So the question is really, what are you trying to guard against? You could uh you could cook for a longer period of time at a lower temperature and kill everything that's in there from a vegetative standpoint and therefore get a different texture, right? But only if your product is inherently safe from a spore standpoint. So let me make this very clear very, very, very, very clear. If you are gonna sterilize, if you want to sterilize something and make a shelf stable product that you can leave on an unrefrigerated shelf for uh an infinite length of time, you have to either can it using a pressure canner using recognized procedures for pressure canning, or you have to ensure that you have enough salt or acidity in that can to ensure that no spores, no spore-forming bacteria are gonna grow after you do your initial kill step.
Spore. Spore. So, and if you if if you have that, you can cook at a lower temperature for longer and basically effectively pasteurize the product, but not sterilize it. On the second part of the question, where you're worried about there not being enough uh cooking liquor in the you know, pickling liquid in it, that could conceivably be a problem if it doesn't diffuse in fast enough. You could get possibly some growth of uh product uh in the portion of the thing that's uncovered.
It's very hard to say without uh knowing it first. But be very careful when you're canning uh to ensure that you're not gonna grow botulism! Let's take our first commercial break. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hella can't be helped. And I'm coming from a brand new place.
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Are we on? Welcome back to Cooking Issues. 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128. Chris Young is still on his way, still caught on the BQE.
Which for those of you who don't know our uh fine neighborhoods over here sucks. Right, Jack? It does. It does suck. Especially flushing ev sucks.
And that's kind of where it's close to where that's close to where we are. Probably where he's getting off, yeah. Yeah, you know, Roberta's, like I tell you why Robert is designed uh basically solely for hipsters. And the only train really that services this place is the L, which is the hipster line. You know?
Uh we were like they threatened to shut down the L, didn't they, Nastasha? For like a for like a week or something like that? Didn't you say that? Every weekend it's shut down. So what are the hipsters gonna do?
There's uh there's a website that we can plug called Is the L Trainfucked.com. Wow, busting out the F. F bomb, F bomb, what? I'm not, I mean, I Jack already told him about it. They can go to it, and the answer is pretty much yes.
Yes. Well, here's the here's the real question. Do you need to get somewhere? Then the L train won't take you. If you don't need to get there in a big hurry, the L train will be fine.
I think that's pretty much pretty much how the L trained. You can take the J. Yes, you can take the J if you enjoy a 20 minute walk. Okay. Uh hello.
Another a different Andrew writes. Oh, by the way, Andy emailed us while I was talking about that and says, How long do you want to age the bluefish and or mackerel when you catch it? I don't know. It's really something you have to kind of uh test. I would uh after you get it home, I would take and uh cut them into two fillets.
I would taste some right away, uh, and then I would uh like keep it a day and then test it there. I doubt it's gonna take longer than a day to be good. I mean, most people who eat bluefish, they want you to eat it right, right away. I mean, like if you if you ever grew up fishing on Cape Cod, or you know, you grew up on near Cape Cod in the summers and people fished for you, which is what happened to me. They would give you bluefish and because it was considered a trash fish, uh, you know, when I was growing up, and uh they would tell you to eat it right away, and strangely, it's known as a very oily fish, and they would tell you uh they would always grill it, always 100% of the time it would be grilled.
I've never had it cooked any other way on the cape. And they would tell you to put mayonnaise on the fish. And here I think I've mentioned this on the show before, but they say oil they don't talk like this because they're from Cape Cod. Oil gets out oil. That's how it works.
You put the mayonnaise on the fish because oil gets out oil. Doesn't make any damn sense to me at all. Makes no damn sense. But that's I'm just telling you, that's what they used to say. Uh I know, you know, mackerel, another oily fish you don't think of as aging necessarily, but some of the most interesting best mackerel I've ever had was Sabasushi, which was basically mackerel that had been aged overnight wrapped in combu.
Like he fought like the chef uh Sas, I think it was Sasaki san, formed uh, you know, basically a roll with a vinegared rice and the mackerel, wrapped it in combu, and aged it overnight, which was delicious. So I think it's just you have to see. I just have to test it. You're gonna test it and you're gonna tell us how long to age it. Rice does it.
Yeah, she's not listening. Yeah, we're doing a radio show. No, I just asked you to that was that was like a half hour ago. She's condense this question. Oh, yes, she is condensing a question.
She is doing work for the radio show people, so I apologize. Okay. Uh Andy, Andrew, different Andy Retson. I have a few questions I've stored up rather than emailing you one little question each week. Hope that's okay.
Uh so firstly, I was wondering about the mechanics of cartouches and whether there's really a reason to use one over just putting a lid on. Uh and what we're talking about here, a cartouche is not uh in cooking parlance, it's not like an Egyptology term. In cooking parlance, a cartouche is a piece of parchment paper that you cut into a circle, uh, and then you cut a little circle in the middle so that it just fits into a pot. Uh, and usually you're gonna use that in when you're brazing something, you'll put that in. And uh, and or if you're cooking um certain times you're cooking vegetables, you'll do that.
You'll put a little bit of water uh, you know, and sugar and whatnot, uh, you know, butter, whatever, uh, in your vegetables, and you'll put uh uh like a cartouche over it and cook it. Now the theory of them is that it allows a certain amount of moisture to leave through the central hole in the in in the paper, right? Kind of like a parachute, let's some of the steam out. So you get a slow reduction, right? Without it getting a like it's it's not super fast.
It's kind of a controlled reduction. And also it keeps uh basically a hundred percent humidity environment over the portions of the paper that are covered. So you're not gonna get on a braised item, for instance, you're not gonna get a lot of drying out of the meat that is not directly centered over the hole, right? That makes sense. So uh is there a big difference between that and just putting a lid on?
I don't know. You know, I've never I've never really done the test. I can tell you how many times at home I've made uh I've made the cartouche roughly zero. You know what I mean? Like on the order of zero is how many I mean that's not true.
I used to do it sometimes for the for the heck of it. I just don't know that there's gonna be that much benefit over keeping uh the lid on. I'd have to run a side-by-side test and see whether it really controls the uh evaporation rate any better or whether or not it actually prevents uh kind of some surface drying of the meat. Maybe this is something when Chris makes it here from the BQE, we can uh we can ask him about, yeah? I'll put that on the list of things to talk to him about cartouche because I'm sure that they've studied that because they did a bunch of in-depth studies of um classic cooking techniques on and you know they like to debunk the classic cooking techniques, so we can actually get him going on uh on uh confie as well, get it get it get his motor going on confie.
Okay. Uh my other questions about the method you talked about some shows ago with using gelatin and meat glue to make noodles. By the way, this is a Wiley Dufrein trick. Uh, one of the great properties of gelatin, as I'm sure you know, is it's fantastic flavor release. Is this still the case in this application?
Uh also uh is there any benefit in using this method over other thermoirreversible gels for making noodles, I guess. Now, uh that's an interesting question. I've had the noodles, and the noodles are delicious. Uh also they fry really well, better than any other kind of hydrocolloid noodle I've had. Uh, as for the flavor release, I mean, it seemed to me that they had a good flavor release because it's just my recollection.
It would be okay. Gelatin, anytime you use a gel, you you care about whether or not that gel has a good flavor release. So for instance, uh alginate gel doesn't break up in your mouth very well, uh, doesn't leak out a lot of fluid, uh, so is basically the worst for flavor release. It's a flavor thief. It's uh, you know, it's kind of it's alginates are the enemy of flavor, which is why you either want a very thin or very soft uh alginate shell uh or you know, a lot of something very, very flavorful, otherwise you're gonna get a lot of the flavor sapped out.
And that's the problem a lot of times with things like alginate. Um things like gel-an have very good flavor release because they leak a lot of moisture, they break very easily in the mouth, and they uh and they're used at very low concentration, so they tend to mask flavor less. Gelatin is kind of the gold star standard for flavor release for a number of reasons. Uh it breaks very easily in the mouth, liquid comes out, and also it melts at body temperature. So when you eat it, uh gelatin literally melts in your mouth and turns back to a liquid.
Flavor release doesn't get much better than that, right? So in this scenario where we're basically what we're doing is we're taking transglutaminase meat glue, stirring it in with the gelatin, the meat glue is cross-linking the gelatin so that the gelatin will no longer melt, not only at body temperature, but it won't melt even at at deep frying temperatures. So one of the things that gives uh gelatin its great flavor release, the fact that it melts in your mouth, is not gonna happen. However, uh it still breaks up very nicely in your mouth, almost like a pasta. So is it gonna have as good a flavor release as straight gelatin?
I would bet not. But it, you know, it is gonna have a better, it does have a good flavor release, and that's just from kind of you know me, me knowing that from eating it. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Okay. Um finally, although it's not really finally because he has the fourth question. By the way, when you s when you guys write in and you say finally, make it the final question. Ask as many as you like, but make the final one the last one. All right.
Uh just kidding. I'm just kidding, Andrew, I don't really care. Okay. Uh, in your post on enzymatic peeling, you use a combination of two enzymes. Uh I used uh Pectinex Ultra SPL, which is the one that they're selling on Monarch's Pantry, and Pectinex Smash XXL, which was the first one of the enzymes really that uh I was using for breaking down pectin.
Uh and when I wrote the uh and post on peeling things with uh enzyme enzymes, I used both. Have you found that Pectenex Smash XXL is not really necessary? In other words, can you do it just with Pectinex Ultra SPL? Yes. Um you can.
So I no longer bother sourcing Pectinex uh Smash XXL. I find that if you just add a little bit more of the Pectanex Ultra SPL uh that it works fine. The reason I initially used both was uh the the people at Novazymes, the enzyme uh person at Novozymes uh said that the one that was most optimum they used to make an enzyme called Peelzyme, whose only job it was was to break down um the kind of membrane around citrus fruits and also the albedo, the white part in a citrus fruit, right? That's all that thing was built for, peelzyme. They stopped making uh peelzyme.
Chris Young is coming, I see him coming around. Uh they stopped making peel zyme. And so what the enzyme specialist at Novozyme said was why don't you use a mixture of uh Smash XXL and uh ultra SPL? But then later it's just slightly more effective. So I just use a little more uh of the one enzyme than you would of the two combined and it works fine.
We use about four grams per liter ultra SPL uh in our in our solutions to do our peeling. So that's gonna work fine. All right. We are joined in the studio by none other than Chris Young, author of Modernist Cuisine, friend of friend of mine, friend of uh friend of the cooking issues, and uh our one of our West Coast buddies. What's going on, Chris?
Not too much. Very frustrated with your traffic here in New York. Uh yes, not used to it. Not used to it. I like that.
You know, in in in in Seattle, everything's nice. The traffic's nice, me, me, me, me, me. Yeah, that's uh that's I think why I'm gonna go right back. I like the West Coast. All right.
Uh one question for you before I before I forget. We had someone write in, I don't know if you address this in modernist cuisine. Uh by the way, call in all of your questions to Chris at 7184972128. That's 7184972128. So someone's saying, you know, cartouches, you know, where you cut the paper and then you cut the little hole in the center of the paper and you put it in the pot so that it uh kind of gently boils down.
Any any point in that as opposed to a lid? Not really one that I could possibly think of. Uh all you're gonna do is slow down the evaporation, keep it closer to the boiling point, but uh no, I don't really see any benefit to it over a lid. Yeah, me neither. Well, that's the thing.
So the question is, is uh will you are you gonna prevent any local? So if you have a very tall pot, right? And I'm just talking right out of my behind here, but if you have a very tall pot and you have, let's say, uh, that was my iPad, folks, and you have like a uh uh like an asebuco or something like that. Sure. Uh, and so your liquid's not covering the thing.
Do you think it's gonna get any drier because of the because of the steam basically hitting that one section that's not covered? Is it really not going to make a difference? You're gonna have like a local deficit of humidity there. I mean, I don't know. That's the only event.
I don't see it making in the oven. I I can see there being a bit of an argument for using one in a brazen and oven. Uh on a stovetop, I don't see any benefit over a lid. I I think that's highly suspect that it's gonna make a significant difference there. But in an oven, you are gonna slow down evaporation, you're gonna raise the wet bulb temperature, and you're going to get an effective higher brazing temperature than if you left it uncovered.
Oh, sure. By the way, this is something that uh I you know, as long as Chris is here, let's debunk this sucker right now. You are not creating any pressure in a pot by putting uh a lid on. Uh even a minute overpressure in your pot is many pounds of force on a large lid. You are not increasing the pressure to the extent that you're increasing the temperature on the inside of that pot.
What you are doing by preventing uh evaporation is getting your temperature actually up to the boil throughout rather than uh rather than allowing it to uh be basically be evaporative cooler. So an experiment you should run at home is take an oven with two Pyrex dishes, uh same Pyrex dish, set your oven to 350, uh cover one Pyrex dish with aluminum foil tightly, uh, and then you know, jam a lid into it so that you know you're not getting much evaporation off of it, and then leave the other one open. The one that's covered will boil, the one that is not covered won't. Agree? Yeah.
Yeah. Anyway. Uh huh okay. So Chris, how was your main stage perfor how was your how do you feel about it? This is your second time on the main stage of Starchest by the way, right?
Uh yes, this was my second time. Uh this this was a bit interesting. I think we attempted to do a a little more cooking this time and a little less uh dog and pony show uh which went pretty well except for the fact that we were cut short by about fifteen minutes. Yeah. You know and when you're doing a show that you set up from kind of far away you have X amount to do and you know you're gonna do a lot, you don't want to get I mean 15 minutes is a big deal.
No, I had to cut a lot out and we had to compress a lot of a lot of steps. So uh luckily my colleague Kyle was able to keep up with me as I drop stuff. But uh it was entertaining. Came came complete with its own explosions. Oh yeah well so uh I didn't realize what happened.
Apparently what happened okay so we might as well get into this. So one of the things look modernist cuisine costs five hundred bucks right and and I get this knock and I don't have nearly the kind of crap that you guys had. So I'm sure you get this knock even more than I have that this is stuff is you need a lot of equipment, blah blah blah blah blah. You've heard this bullshit many times. I I've certainly heard people assume that you need thousands of dollars worth of toys to do this stuff.
Which by the way not the case. That's just the way I feel about it. But uh so one of the demos that Chris uh did yesterday at Starchefs was to do um low temperature reductions without having to buy a rotovap. So basically your ability to do low temperature reductions in a in a restaurant situation uh for under five hundred bucks relatively effectively, yes? Yes, that's that was the point.
Is how do you how do you get on eBay a little Google foo and put together your own evaporative uh reduction system or vacuum reduction system? Right. So it's not it's not a distillation system because you can't recover. No. Uh actually, you know what, then it's totally legal though, even to do port in it because you can't recover.
That's right, you're not recovering any of the vapors. So it it's not a replacement for a roto vap, but it is fun to point out and just needle you a little saying you don't actually need a roto vap to do what eighty percent of people do with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Although you know, I am I am the uh uh the other section where I am almost always using the illegal distillate, but in restaurants you can't because you know you can't, you know, endanger your liquor licenses. That's the the main problem.
So what Chris did was he set up uh an aspirator pump. You had a nice one though. That one's not a cheap one. Uh well we bought that one used though. So I think if you were to buy that one new, yes, it would probably be about a thousand dollars new.
There's no reason for it to cost that much. Uh I saw them used on eBay for around five hundred. But I didn't get into this yesterday, but you don't even need that. You can even buy the aspirating nozzles that screw on a on a faucet and just use the venturi effect to basically give you a vacuum, and that's what thousands of chemistry labs around the country do. Right, but then your boiling temperature is only gonna get down to whatever I mean, look, here's a way an aspirator works is you're you shoot liquid past uh um an orifice at a high velocity, it carries basically the air with it and sucks a vacuum.
You the you're limited in the in the vacuum that you can suck by uh basically by whatever the vapor pressure of water happens to be at the temperature that the water is. So the most effective way to do this is to use ice water. Uh and so recirculating aspirator pumps are uh the way to go if you want to get the lowest stuff, and if you don't believe in throwing water away, like absurd amounts of water away, because you're talking like gallons, gallons and gallons and gallons. Now, I'm not going to tell you to go on uh the internet, search uh for do it yourself meth labs and see how those guys use a flowjet pump hooked up with PVC tubes to aspirators to build your own recirculating aspirator because I wouldn't advocate that you go up and look up uh do it yourself meth labs. But if you wanted to, you could go there and for about uh you with at Home Depot, you can get a good pump that'll do this for like, you know, eighty bucks, ninety bucks, and then you just go buy uh series, you have to buy two or three aspirators, put them in uh in um parallel to get a higher rate of pump down, and you can do this.
Although I'm not advocating it, but you can do it. I'm not I'm advocating the pump, not the not the meth. Yeah, I I I think that's what's coming across here, Dave, although I'm not entirely sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know what?
Like until until they get so tweaked out that they blow themselves up in their own lab, like you're you start with like a uh people who are smart enough to do orgo, basically, right? And you know, kind of ambitious enough to build their own setups. And uh so, you know, they have some good ideas and then they you know I think what I'm hearing here is you're not you're advocating buying some uh stuff at Home Depot, not some phenylalanine solution. Bingo. Okay.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah, okay. So uh anyway, look, we can learn from everyone. Learn learn from meth labs if if they if they're there to help you.
Uh but what I was really interested in with this setup is so basically it's just uh uh an Erlenmeyer flask with a sidearm uh a plug in it and uh stirring hot plate and a stirring hot plate although you know you could get away with look you don't want to ignite it. So you can get away with you could get away with I guess you need it to stir yeah you want to avoid the bumping that that's sort of the aside from stirring and getting yourself a nice vortex for greater surface area you will get it jumping all over the place if you were just to put it in a pot on a uh a hot stove. Right I mean my only problem with the with those stirring hot plates is that um they're they're not cheap you have to get them used. You have to get them used but uh there was a I I literally before my presentation yesterday Google eBay just to double check and there was a a huge number of them for around a hundred dollars um and they're they're dirt simple so there's not much that can break about them. Right but just so you guys who haven't used one out there they are great not gonna deny that um you you know and they and this managed bars are like two bucks for McMastercar.com or Cold Parm or whatever they're like two bucks they're nothing uh the one problem I have with them is that their heat rate is very very slow.
So they will once they're stable they're good and ready to ready to rock but just know that when you turn one on don't expect it to get up to temperature instantly and they don't dump a lot of watts quickly into your which it's not a problem. You actually that's good for you. That's that's good. They're designed for a chemistry lab where stability of your temperature and accuracy is a lot more important than responsiveness. So it can be frustrating when you turn it on and it takes thirty minutes to to get to stable temperature.
But once it's there, who cares. Right. That's it that but that's my point. My point is is that is that it's going to take a cook a while to get used to the response. Is it really all that different than a French top?
I mean, a French top, you turn it on in the morning, you leave it on all day, it doesn't change temperature massively. And if you're used to that, you just leave this thing on all day and know that it's hot and don't touch it. That's that's a very good point. And but my all my another point I've always said is that I wish more cooks in the US were used to French tops. Because I did my cooking in over in the with the Euros.
Yeah, I mean, like I mean the amazing thing about about them uh is that I think it's really interesting to because on a French top, you don't you don't uh adjust temperature by adjusting knobs. You cook spatially. So you know uh kind of what you know you know what temperature your pot's gonna be based on where it is in space on the top, which I think is really great. I think it's really interesting way to cook, but again, not something that I think most U.S. cooks are used to.
No, and I think we'll probably end up skipping that and going to induction. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Um I was wondering is like, is there a problem doing an induction magster? Is it a problem or can it be done? I would think it could be done.
It might be a little bit of cleverness because you would need to you'd have you'd be trying to couple a magnetic field of the pot in the same time uh basically rotate that field to get your your uh stir spinning. So I imagine it could be done, but it wouldn't be trivial. Yeah. So anyway, so what Chris was talking about uh about the explosions yesterday was that uh he took the thing off of the heater to show that it was still gonna boil even though it wasn't being currently heated, and it's because we were lowering the pressure, or he was lowering the pressure in the Erlenmeyer using the uh aspirator, and uh set it down. Eventually, what happens is the aspirator starts getting the pressure down and the product starts cooling and it's no longer boiling, sucked enough of a vacuum to inhale the cap that was on the flask into the Erlenmeyer flask, and then ejected uh liquid out of the Erlenmeyer into the air.
Uh and it's kind of cool. I thought it was nice. Yeah, that that was rather spectacular. It it gave me pause. Yeah.
It was a good 10 seconds of going, what the hell just happened there? Yeah, well, you know, and this is uh oh, this is another good point. A couple things about this. One, I'm not gonna insult the gastrovac on air except to say that it doesn't work and it's useless. So uh the only way you can make GastroVac is by the way, is that is a machine that you buy that has a very bad vacuum pump on it.
That then should I be saying this? Do you agree with me on this? Um it's a bad vacuum pump. It's useless. Yeah, it's useless.
If you own a chamber vacuum machine, there's no reason to own a gastrovac. True or false. I don't think there's a reason to own a gastrovac full stop. Right. But if the gastrovac guys had, instead of putting that vacuum pump on it, put an ice bat an ice uh bath run aspirating pump.
Now I think you have uh uh a good thing. So the point of the Gastrovac is you're supposed to be able to do as Steingarten told us yesterday, Jeffrey Steingarden, was to do things like jellies at lower temperatures so that things don't caramelize, and to do like Wiley was was very very interested in vacuum frying for a long time so that you could get all the moisture. Well, and you can fry things that are very sweet that would burn at normal frying temperature. So bingo, they do this in the tropics in Thailand and stuff, they'll do deep fried pineapple chips. Sure.
Or or apple chips, another big one that you do that you you you want to totally dehydrate them in a frying situation, but not at at a lower temperature. But this isn't the way most people views their gastrovac, and that's I think why we're both saying this isn't uh a compelling technology. Right, because and here's the kicker, the gastrovac won't work for either of those two applications because anyone that knows anything about uh vacuums and distillations will tell you in order to boil something off, you need to either recondense it or your vacuum pump needs to be able to handle the vapor, and it can't. But Chris's aspirator pump, on the other hand, could do that because it can take as much water in as it wants. It doesn't matter.
That that is one of the beauties of it, is you can foul it up with the the worst vapors and it does not care. That's why we use them in Chem Labs uh for bust. Well, I'm not giving up my roto vap anytime soon. I think this would be a good solution to do kind of lower temperature jellies. If you want to reduce citrus juices or anything that has a real delicate aroma and flavor that would change with any high temperature boiling, this is the way to go.
So I'm gonna give it a qualified thumbs up. Listen, why don't we go to one more commercial break and we'll come back for another segment with Chris Young? Hey! Got the payback! Rubin!
A man! Got to get back! I need some get back. Payback. Payback!
That is payback! Revenge! I'm mad! Get down with MacGogriff! That ain't right!
Whoa! Holland Cass! Hey back! Here's a thing! You got the Cell!
Follow me out! Chicken chain! Told me they had all a rain! Hello, and welcome back to Cooking Issues. Call your questions in too.
Nastasha, what's the number? 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Alrighty. Oh, by the way, uh, before we go any further, Adam Lazarick uh wrote a question in before, and uh apparently there is a typo.
He wants everyone out there in internet land to know that he does not recommend cooking a uh was it a short rib, I think, uh, at 130 for eight hours. He knows that that's not long enough, so he doesn't want anyone to have that uh 130 F for eight hours attached to his name in any way, or uh to the uh LaCroix restaurant where he works in Philly, and we hope to get out to the next time we're in Philly. So for anyone out there listening, he knows better. I saw him a Star Chefs actually yesterday. Nice guy.
Okay. Uh and one more little note, uh, if I can get back to it, is uh in fact, I'll get back to the note, I'll have it be my my ending. Andrew wrote in and agrees with you about candies, but I'll read his, I'll read his notes on candies uh as we go. But uh oh, I also mentioned before you got here that uh you were a glider pilot. I am.
Yeah. That is the other hobby. Yeah. So well, gliding and cooking. That's it's you know, what else do you need?
So uh I want to talk about some of the stuff you're working with. I mean, look, everybody who's tunes into our show knows modernist cuisine. I feel like, you know, I like if you don't know I would be shocked if there's even one person who can hear my voice right now that doesn't already know about modernist cuisine because did our publicist pay you to say this? No, I mean I'm just saying I still you know, it's I can't I can't picture it. I can't look.
If you don't know it, if if you are the one person who was suddenly born and got interested in tech technical cooking, and this is the first thing you've ever heard about it, go Google modernist cuisine. Okay. Uh but let's talk about some of the stuff you're working on after the book. Sure. Uh one of the things I was interested in, you were telling me you were you were working on a project uh on milk in Africa.
You want to talk about that? Yeah, I can talk a little bit about that. So we did the cookbook at uh Nathan's day job, which is uh running a company called Intellectual Ventures, which uh uh simply put it's an invention company. And so the cookbook project was just one of many odd projects going on. We had anti-malaria projects involving lasers shooting mosquitoes down.
That was going on right in front of the kitchen. Um I've seen the laser, it's cool. Yeah, so um I got asked at the end of the book project, since um I'm kind of a uh uh technical food guy, if I would help out on another project that was going on the lab, which was um basically improving uh the milk situation in sub-Saharan Africa, particularly Kenya and Uganda. This is a Gates Foundation sponsored project. And we take it for granted here in this country that we can get milk from the farm, it can be shipped, it can be pasteurized, then it can be kept cold, shipped around and distributed, and we get this very fresh milk supply.
But in fact, that's a very recent technology. Even in this country, it's less than about 60 years old that we've reliably done that. And before that, we did all sorts of crazy wacky stuff, like putting formaldehyde in milk to try to eke out a little bit more shelf life because we didn't have a reliable cold chain. Delicious formaldehyde. Yeah, real tasty stuff.
So Africa, it turns out shipping things and keeping them cold, really difficult. Um reliable cold chain non-existent. And so by some estimates, 50% of the milk that these small whole dairy farmers produce spoils before it can be sold. Incidentally, it turns out that 50% they would need to increase their amount of milk sold by about doubling it to basically break the poverty trap. And most milk produced in Sub-Saharan Africa is by small hold dairy farmers who have two, maybe three cows.
Um they're not able to sell their milk before it spoils. And and then even then, uh they don't capture a lot of the value. The dairy traders do, who tend I mean, theoretically, all of the milk in Kenya is supposed to be pasteurized. In reality, 80% of the milk is purchased and sold and consumed raw. And actually that's not strictly true, because people don't drink raw milk, they would all be dropping like flies because it is basically diluted shit.
I mean, the the bacterial counts are fantastically, I mean, just mind-boggling numbers of over a hundred million collar units per per milliliter. So everyone boils the bejesus out of their milk, and as as a result of this, they turn out it turns out they like the flavor of boiled milk. Where you and I might go, Oh, that's a little kind of sweet tasting, not to not to my liking. We're used to fresh milk. Well, the insight that um I had was basically why don't we if they like the flavor of boiled milk, why are we putting all this effort into cooling it down?
Why don't we basically collect the milk, bring it up to sous vide temperatures, uh pasteurization temperatures, because that's very easy to do in Africa, and then hold it hot for many days at a time until it's sold, it's purchased hot, and then it can be used within several hours. So those of you guys out there, listen, here's the here's the thing, right? Boiling energy intensive, especially if taken from cold, right? So to cool down and then boil energy intensive, heating it up to not as high a temperature, but keeping it there, not as energy intensive. Right, and it's actually even more than that because what happens today is they transport the milk, it's chilled down, then it's heated up again, then it's chilled down again, and you have all these heating and cooling cycles, and then the problem is you've pasteurized it, and now it has to be kept cold to be shipped around, and that's the real falling down.
Is it forget even the total energy consumption, it's just not possible to ship it around cold. But if you have a very well-insulated container, it's very easy to ship it around hot, and so now you don't have the temptation that the current traders have of let me put formaldehyde in there, let me put hydrogen peroxide in there to try to prevent my inventory from spoiling before I can sell it off. So, how long can you hot hold? Um, we're we're actually working on finding out. I mean, you can hold indefinitely from a microbiological standpoint.
Taste though, from taste standpoint. That's going to be very subjective. To me, at three days, that's the the upper limit. What about for the consumer there? Well, we're doing sensory studies right now to figure it looks like at one and two days, almost everyone thinks the milk's fine.
At three days, maybe ten percent of people don't. It's gonna fall off by some amount, and so probably the price your milk commands falls off over a number of days, too. So the flavor profile, even though they're gonna boil it when they get it, yes. Uh is different if it's been held hot for longer than about three days. You're essentially running even though it's a very wet system, over that duration of time you get some mired reactions, so you actually get some caramel color form running some of those flavors.
Um the milk, yes, you've destroyed some of the micronutrients, but in fact in Africa the macronutrients is all you give a shit about. Right. Now, uh one of the problems you were saying in this also is getting heat exchanges that don't foul up in the field because you want this to be as simple as possible for the farmers. It has to be incredibly low tech, it has to cost less than 200 dollars to be a viable product. And how close are you to hitting that number?
We're very close. We're expecting to be doing pilot studies in January in Kenya. Right. And so now just so you guys know out there, because this is another thing I hate, is you know, you know, Chris has been involved in high high-tech cooking for uh a long time, and they say, you know, the stuff that you think about never has any kind of impact. And it is true that you know, tend to focus uh and the book focuses on things that uh are are aimed at a high end consumer, let's say.
But uh turning now the same kind it's the same thought process. It's like here are the givens, here's what we're trying to achieve, right? Here's the problem, here are the givens. What can we do with it? So it's the same kind of creative notion that can then be applied to this kind of a problem.
And I think what's you know, what's different about uh, you know, what at least my impression of what's one of the things that's different about what Chris is doing here uh with the Gates Foundation, right? And and and Nathan, I guess it's a lot of people. Yeah, it's intellectual ventures and the Gates Foundation. Uh is that starts from a uh science perspective, but more importantly from a cook. What tastes good?
How can we make this milk taste uh the way that these guys want the milk to taste? Not how do I want the milk to taste, or not like how do I just make it safe? How do I make milk that these guys want to drink that also is economically viable for them and and and and will also will also be safe. But the safety has to go with the it tastes good to them. Yeah, it's very funny because in a lot of situations people come in from the Western world and want to force a Western technology, a Western viewpoint onto them.
But in fact, they don't like the flavor of our pasteurized milk. It's too bland to them, whereas we like that blandness. They don't like homogenized milk at all. It's too lean tasting. They want that rich, full fat taste you get of of the raw, unhomogenized cream.
And so everyone who's looked at this problem before is trying to say, well, here's how we do it in the Western world, let us show you how it's done. And we took a slightly different attitude of saying, well, that's not what they like anyway, so why don't we just try to figure out how to give them what they like and we just have this problem of preventing the milk to spoil? You could do it cold, but why not do it hot? So what percentage uh do you think now of milk in Kenya just is unsalable because it goes bad? We think about fifty percent of the milk is is lost to spoilage.
Right. I think you said that before, but I just want to say it again. Fifty percent, right? So and how big a number is that? Oh, uh it would be trillion uh be um hundreds of millions, close to billions of liters probably annually.
Right. And so that's how many. That's over the broader sub-Saharan Africa region. And if you if you remember, so it's fifty percent of the milk is co going bad right now and is unsaleable, and that's about the number it would take yield-wise, dou double the current yield, i.e., not losing that fifty percent to get those farmers out of the poverty line. So you're talking this gets them to that place where they're no longer at the poverty line.
We're we're s I mean, this is part of a much broader initiative that the Gates Foundation has funded called the East African Dairy Development. And the idea is that milk is a major product for people, it's a major source of nutrition, it's a source of actually drinkable water. And so we're hoping that this is one step in basically really solving some of the problems over there. Small differences may have a big impact. Alright, nice.
I like that. Uh so doing good work. Uh uh is that laser thing with the mosquitoes actually working or no? Uh it is actually working. They were doing some testing of the the kill laser uh last week, I believe.
So this is basically uh like Ronald Reagan's anti-missile Star Wars thing, and it just shrunk by a couple orders of magnitude. Yep. I mean, quite literally, that's what it is, right? Yeah, the the basic idea is that uh if you can in a in a say around a village reduce the mosquito population by a significant amount. Don't totally eradicate it but reduce it, you can have a profound impact on how quickly malaria is transmitted.
So we decided to start shooting the lasers out of the sky with a laser. Yeah, it's crazy. I like that. It's crazy though. It's it's Looney's loony tunes, but it it does work.
All right. So here's what's gonna happen. I'm gonna read a comment on candy about Nastasha, and Chris is gonna comment on that. And while I'm doing this, I want him to think of something uh in cooking that he hates. And we'll end with something that he hates in cooking, right?
You gonna think about that while I read this? I'm gonna think about that. All right, Andrew writes in and he says he's also like to say that Andrew is totally with Nastasha on red, orange, and yellow candy being crap candy flavors. Artificial cherry, this is Andrew's words, not mine, is a vile abomination and sullies cherry's very name. I mean, come on.
If you can't make a flavor that is remotely like a delicious fresh cherry, don't use it at all. As for oranges and lemons, they're just boring. With the fantastic flavors that flavor houses producing candy manufacturers, they have no excuse to keep using these crap flavors. Still, the worst candy flavor of all time is popcorn jelly beans. I can force myself to eat other distasteful flavors like artificial cherry, and in turn increase my appreciation for the great flavors.
But Jelly Belly popcorn goes straight in the trash. Alright. Any comments, Nastasha? I agree. We have a caller just thing.
Oh, really? Alright, so Chris is gonna think about what he hates. And caller, you made it in just under the wire. Hi, uh, my name is Janani. Um, and I have a question about hard boiling eggs, actually.
Uh, I'm wondering if it's better to put the egg in uh when the water is still cold or to drop it in when it's hot. All right, listen, I'm gonna have what I think, but I'm gonna let Chris say what he thinks, and then we'll argue about it. What do you think, Chris? Generally speaking, I like so there's a pro and a con to it. I like putting it in cold because the egg doesn't tend to get the thermal shock and it doesn't tend to split on you.
But it becomes a lot more difficult to time it just right because how long is it gonna take that pot of water to get warm? And I've read studies that say it's harder to peel if you go from cold versus if you go in straight hot. But uh here's my thing. Are you timing your eggs very very rigorously? Uh no, I kind of just leave it and come back.
Then go from cold. Then go from cold, who cares? Yeah, I mean, look, these boiling water things, what they're doing is is they are uh they're they're getting a large, large pot of water boiling and they're plunging enough eggs in there that the temperature never really drops appreciably below the boil. And therefore, therefore, assuming you use the same size eggs all the time, you can get a very accurate temperature. If all you're concerned with is getting a hard boiled egg and not turning green on the outside of the yolk, then I would just bring it to just below the boil, leave it covered, and let it go back to cold, it won't get what do you think about this?
I think that's fine, and I'm gonna throw in one tip here. If you have a hard time peeling your your hard boiled eggs, get yourself a blowtorch. Oh. If you hit the shell with a blowtorch and then try to peel it, it's way easier. Like after it's pulled out, it's dry.
After it's done cooking, after it's dry, you just go around uh basically hitting the surface with a blowtorch for an intense pulse of heat, not really enough to cook it, but that shell will come away much more easily. Really? Great. Nice. Well, thanks for the call.
Great, thank you. All right. You're welcome. So, Chris, to take us on out of this, give me something you hate. Uh, I hate uh I hate the label of molecular gastromedy.
Boom! And I hate the parlor tricks that tend to come with it. Oh, yeah! Give me some more, give me a stop. For about 10 years I've been associated with this kind of cooking.
And I will go into restaurants, I see lots of foams, lots of gels, and done well. These can be wonderful, they can be exciting, and they should exist. But first and foremost, it has to be good cooking. And I'm getting tired of going into restaurants where people figure out who I am and all of a sudden the gels start come flying out. So I despise that.
Stop. Nice. Nice. And have you ever met someone who calls themselves a molecular cook whose work you respect? Oh, going rough!
I can't think of it off the top of my head. Don't use molecular gastronomy. Thanks, Chris Young. This has been Cooking Issues. Oh, you did that.
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