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We're also Kilkrias Cooks at Hearts. We've got some questions, but don't know where to start. Dave Nastatsia Jack and Joe 2. They're all here now to listen and help us through. So get your cook check issues.
This is a call on Shay with your cooking issues. Every Tuesday. Coming to you in the back of uh Roberta's PT in Bushwick Brooklyn. Hey Joel, thanks for coming by. How are you doing?
Thanks for having me. Yeah, no problem. Here, pull that mic over there. And you're all we're also joined uh with uh America. Hello.
Hi. She hasn't had a mic yet, she will in a second. It's pointed uh where Joel's mouth used to be pointed. Uh and as usual, joined with uh Nastasha the Hammer Lopez, Joe and Jack in the engineering booth. No Joe.
No Joe! Joe's on tour, man. On tour? South by Southwest, yeah. He's uh big ups.
On the road with the big ups. Yeah, yeah, doing his front man routine. Rockstar life. Where's he gonna tour? Where's he gonna go?
Uh he'll be in Austin doing a few shows down there. And I think uh a few shows on the way to Austin. Like something like eight shows in 15 days. What's the big venue nowadays between here and Austin? Oh man, I don't know.
You're asking the wrong guy. No? Yeah, I have no idea. Anyway, good luck to Joe. Go out and see Joe.
That was great, Joel. Yeah, that was great. Thank you so much. Thanks for coming in. Uh and this was the long-awaited live performance of the Cooking Issues theme here on the uh on the on the air.
So uh in case you weren't paying attention to the theme song, calling your questions live too, 7184972128. That's 7184972128. Got a lot of crap to go through. Oh, by the way, where are you guys where are you guys hailing from if people don't already know? Uh New Haven, Connecticut is where I work.
We're from Clinton, though, so the southern uh shoreline of Connecticut. Yeah, uh back when I was there, there was an awesome song by uh Connecticut band called Gravel Pit called Going Back to Southern Connecticut. I don't know if you remember that song. No. Yeah, from the early 90s back when I was uh up in up in New Haven Way.
What are you guys doing in New Haven? So I'm a corporate chef, so um I have a uh corporate cafeteria that I run. Uh but I have most of my uh experience is in fine dining, so I sort of take that and move it to serve people lunch of this company that I work for called Higher One. Uh they seem to really like it. Um I got a decent budget to work with, great people, great staff.
Uh and I just take a big interest in sort of the modernist movement and uh doing everything in-house. So I run a full bread program there. I run a charcuterie program, um, and we serve this to people on blue plastic trays, and it's kind of funny. Nice. Yeah, nice, nice.
I haven't been up to New Haven in a while. Nastasha's sister up there at the Yale at this very moment. Uh all right, let's get cracking. We got a lot of crap. Oh, before I before I we're announcing what the Kickstarter is today, we haven't we haven't filmed it yet, but as of uh last week, I guess Friday, right?
We have our patent pending. Is that true, Stas? It was Friday. That's true. So I have my first patent pending, and so now I can tell you guys what it is we're working on.
Here's what it is. So uh anyone who's listening to me knows that uh I have issues with the use of torches in the kitchen. Because when you what happens is I I always find that they make what what I call a torch taste, and that you can tell uh the flavor of something if it's been torched. The other problem with torches is that um they tend to burn one spot if you're not very careful, so you have to back way back on them. It's very difficult to control because you have a very hot uh kind of point heat source that's blasting very fast.
You can also move stuff around. The torch, the torch gases are moving so fast. Now, for years, years, uh we've all thought that what was going on was an improperly mixed flame, right? Or incomplete combustion of the uh propane or butane. And so there's a lot of arguments back and forth on well, it's the it's the gas, right?
It's so that's why some people are like, well, butane tastes better than propane, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or that somehow, if you can complete the combustion of what I in fact, what I used to think it was was they put um stink it stink of fence, I don't know what they're called. Odorants, there you go, into gases so that you could tell if there's a gas leak. Typically, uh uh sulfur containing things, mercaptins that you can smell in very small concentrations. So I always thought it was some sort of residue of that that hadn't been fully combusted.
Anyways, uh turns out uh none of that's the case. Uh we sent some uh we sent some products, including the new thing that we're making over to uh Ariel at UC Davis, our good friend, who did some GC mass spec work on meats cooked in a pan, meats cooked with a regular torch, and meats cooked with our new attachment. Right. Now, what our new attachment does is it arrests the flame, right, allows for complete combustion, but also spreads it out and turns it into uh mainly radiant energy. So, what it is is uh it's a cone that fits over your uh torch and has two screens on it, and those two screens convert the majority of the heat of the torch into radiant energy and stops it from being a direct hardcore blasting flame onto your thing, and also spreads it out evenly so that you have a three-inch circle of glowing red, like right it's stuzz, it's like crazy glowing red.
And the other thing about it with the because the screen is such a light thermal mass, unlike other radiant things like salamanders that take a long time to heat up, this suckers at full blast in like a couple of seconds. Not everyone says, Oh man, salamander instant on bull crap. You light up a salamander, it's it's many minutes until it's raging at full speed. Yeah, you can start cooking with it pretty quickly, but this sucker, instant on. Anyways, so she did a test of uh pan cooking, torch cooking, and the uh the new attachment that we're making, and it turns out that uh what's happening with the propane isn't uncombusted fuel, it's that the super high heat, high intensity, direct flame on the torch is creating new combustion flavors on the meat that are undesirable and taste fuely.
Uh and we have the data, and when we do the Kickstarter, you know, in uh in like a we'll probably do the Kickstarter in what, like a month or something, Stas? Yeah, yeah. Something like that. Yeah. Uh anyway, so you like we'll show the diagram she did, the taste diagram, and there's kind of a good half and a bad half.
Our half is oh it doesn't taste the same as pan, but we haven't done tests versus grilling, which is what we think it's more like, or like straight broiling. But we're on the good half of the of the taste uh thing, and the torch cooking by itself is on the bad half due to these other uh newly created uh um cooking byproducts. Anywho, so we have one problem left with this uh attachment, and it'll fit on um we're we're making it right now to fit on the three most common torches that you have in kitchens. But the one problem we have, we don't have a name for it yet. Right, Stas?
Yeah. We sort of we've thrown around many, many. Yeah, but no one likes no like we don't like. We all like different names. Yeah, well Nastasha likes some of the options here.
Okay, well, Nastasha likes, which is absurd because it's too freaking long for a name, the all searing eye, because it looks like that's not my that goes to Piper. Piper came up with the name. No, he didn't. Oh really? No.
No, he didn't. You just like it best. Yeah, he came up with the name, and I mean, yeah, he did. I came up with that. Okay.
Anyway, no, I mean, like, I'm I'm glad to give Piper his his ups. You know I love myself some Piper, but it's an absurd name for the for the product because it's too long. Hey, can someone go get the all searing eye? No, it's not gonna happen in the kitchen, it won't happen. So then I was like, hey, because I love sawzalls, because who doesn't love a salzol?
Anyone out there that doesn't love a salzol can come and have a discussion with me privately. But sawzalls are amazing. And what do they saw? Do they saw some things? Everything, saws all.
So I was like, well, what about Sears all? Searzol, but and everyone's like, it sounds like Sears Roebuck. I don't want to buy it because it sounds like Sears Robux. So I got some some some blowback on that. Uh you can't use anything with the word dragon in it because there's already a torch company that uses the word dragon.
It's got to be something, it's got to be something, I don't know, that's easy to trademark. We lot I liked uh we like some version of Sally, like Sally, but like Piper, this is Piper's Sally Hander, but it's another silly name. That was Mark's. That was Mark's. I know.
It sounds sounds not family friendly, right? Yeah, you're gonna get a Sally Hander. Sally Hander, right. Here's why I like Sally though. I like Sally, I liked Sally, what did I like?
I like Sally Mattock, but no one likes that because Dax likes Sally Mattock. But I the reason people don't like people don't like the silly names. Why I like Sally is it sounds friendly, and it sounds like something you might say, Sally instead of Sally Mander, some version of Sally. But in uh in a what's it called? When I'm bowing to pressure from Nastasha, we're gonna probably put the letters A-S-E for all steering eye after this.
Yeah. Because we're patenting the whole text. It's just so funny. We're pat oh yeah, and we should base our letter. No, I mean it's great.
Alright, alright. So, anyways, so uh uh the so we'll probably put the letters A S E afterwards because this is the all steering eye version, and we might have a tabletop version that's not. So here's the here's the cooking issues contest uh of the next week because we need to get this thing straightened out. We're working on it, so we might not use any suggestions. However, if we get a suggestion in that we use, you will get a free version of whatever the hell this thing is called that we're trying to help us to name uh without having to uh invest money in the Kickstarter, right?
Fair? And can in in due consideration for the use of name and our ability to use it in all perpetuity. Um right? That's a good contest, yes? Speaking of contests, I have to give a shout-out to Cole Miles, who became a member uh and of Heritage Radio Ave through cooking issues.
So thanks, Co. Nice, nice. Is he the winner of that other contest it's over? Yeah, that's the the membership drive. Is he coming in from Houston?
I don't think so, but if if he ever gets here, he says he'll he'll come. He's an interesting dude. I don't know how much he wants me to tell you about himself on the air, but I met him at a uh what's it called? What do we call those things? So vide, sous vide low low temperature class.
And uh interesting dude. Uh interesting history. Okay, so thank you and congratulations for winning. Any questions on the torch attachment light here, Joel? No, I mean it sounds actually awesome because I've had the problem of obviously use the torch because you want some quick steering on the outside of something, it just tastes gross.
Yeah, it's gross. Yeah. This one, okay. So here's the deal, right? The main problem is is that when you're when when uh the reason I first started working on this is that is I'm interested in finishing low temperature meats.
And a regular salamander, right? It doesn't have the doesn't have the whatever the polite doesn't have the oomph. There you go. That's a polite way to say it. It doesn't have the oomph.
There's a caller, Dave, if you want to. All right, hold on, one second. To finish a low temperature meat. And so uh this does because you can get it extremely close to the surface of the meat, or you can pull back with almost no burn, but then it has a lot of ancillary things, like if you roast a chicken and uh, you know, and it's not quite done at certain points, you can hit it without it getting on that. Yeah.
Or like, you know, if you're doing burgers and you don't want to you don't want to steam your burger, you can just throw the chick uh the cheese on top and then melt the cheese out directly with this thing almost instantly without having to like either throw it in a salamander or or cover it so that this burger is steaming. You know, you're useful like uh to help to finish off little parts of the area of a grill when you're not working right. So it's just useful to have around. It pops off and on your torch. Anyway, we're looking forward to it.
All right, caller, you're on the air. Dave, Chris from Durham, North Carolina. How are you going? Going alright, going alright. How's it doing down there in Durham?
Uh it's pretty rainy, so not great, but uh pretty decent food scene down here. All my family's from New York, and uh we can get some pretty good eats down here. Nice. Yeah. Got a quick question for you about um polyphenol oxidases and avocados.
Yes, it's problematic, right? Yeah, is there any way to turn that like kill them in a circulator without changing the flesh? Uh that's a great question. Uh I was looking at the range. It's like 25 to 35 C is I think their optimal thing, but I'm trying to do um like an avocado roulade without using any kind of acid.
Right. Uh I seem to remember somebody testing this out. I've never actually tested it myself. I seem to remember somebody. I mean, obviously the trick is to cook it to a temperature that uh inactivates the enzymes without rupturing the cells.
And I would guess that you'd want to do something in the mid to high fifties. Sure. You know what I mean? Maybe like 60 should wipe it out, right? Don't you think?
140? 60. I would assume so, yeah. Yeah, I don't I don't know that you're gonna have that much change at 60. I mean, I don't know what's gonna happen to the other products of respiration in the avocado at that temperature, but that's a great.
I mean, I would give it a shot and see what happens. Just don't peel a f an avocado. I wouldn't don't vacuum it because you'll smash it. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Like uh, definitely. Yeah, I would just throw avocados into uh into 60 degree water or even 65, I would try. Because I think uh Bruno Gusot, he was trying to inactivate the enzymes in papaya without ha without doing anything uh to the flesh. And uh Nils and I tried it and we hated it because it intensified that diaper smell that papayas have up here, that nasty baby diaper smell that papayas have uh that I think they have, but they for some reason they don't have in South America, which is why I guess they like them in South America. And if you have anyone here met an American that loves papayas?
No. I hate papayas. Yeah, see? Uh so yeah, yeah, no. Right, yeah, yeah.
I think it's because we get crappy ones. In South America, they're legit. Anyway, so uh Gousseau, I think was using 65 degrees, so you might want to try that for but then the question is you should uh use uh sous vide um, whatever that, whatever the poly science sous vide application is for the uh iPad just to calculate your time temperature ratios. Now remember though, you don't need it to get all the way to the seed. So, you know, take the take the numbers with a grain of salt, right?
Because you're only really penetrating the first however much that is, inch, you know, depending on what kind of avocado. I'm assuming you're using uh Haas or equivalent, not like the dimension. Yeah. So I mean, I don't know how long it's gonna take to penetrate, but you know, the uh sous vide tool, what is what the hell is that thing called again? So you toolbox?
Dash, dash. There you go. Uh use that to calculate what your what your time is. And if you try it, please tell us what happens so that we know. Yeah, I would love to test it out.
Um it's been a problem for a while, and you know, lime goes great with avocado, but you don't always want to use it. Right. I guess that's true. I guess you don't always want lime, although a lot of times I love myself the lime. But but it's it's an excellent problem.
And like you try it out, and if I can think about it, I mean I I like we swim in avocados uh in my neighborhood. They're basically free. It's like it's like cheaper to use avocados than packing peanuts in the lower east side in some places when you buy 'em. But uh but try try to give it a shot, and if I can remember to do it, I'll try to give it a shot and see what happens. Okay, cool.
One more quick question about Dragon's Beard video you did. Yeah. Whenever I do it, it just sets up like a rock. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Um, what do you mean like a rock?
Like how much like a rock? Like a soft rock or like a hard rock. You can't put a dent into it? Yeah, even when I microwave it, which you mentioned in that video, it's if I can't get my finger through it. I don't know what the if I'm cooking it too long.
It's a little bit more yellow than yours, and I don't know if it's just going too high, but I mean my probe says it's going to one thirty-three, I think is what you said. Well, I think that's the that's the finish, but uh I think I pull it at like one thirty-one or one thirty-two. Go back and look at the go back and look at the thing again. You're add but you're and you're adding the corn syrup? Yeah.
Hmm. I mean, just try cooking it to like a degree or two lower so you see what's what's going on. Uh it's not crystallizing though, right? It's still staying clear. No, it's not crystallizing.
Yeah, so I mean, uh it's best not to have to nuke it because if you have to nuke it, we well is Dragon's Beard Candy, for those of you that don't know what the heck we're talking about, is a candy where you cook sugar to a particular point. My memory is that the finished temperature should be at 133 with a little bit of uh with a little bit of corn syrup added uh to uh prevent crystallization. And um what you do is it has to be this exact texture that it's a solid but still bendable uh when it when it cools down, and you form it into a donut and then you stretch it at all the time, putting it through uh cornstarch or a mixture of uh cornstarch and cocoa or mixture of cornstarch and whatever other powdered flavors you want, and folding it and stretching it, folding it and stretching it until you stretch it into the into the width of cotton candy. It becomes like cotton candy. It's called Dragon Spear uh in China.
In uh in other places like Iran, it has uh other names like uh I think they call it Pecmesh. Uh no, Pekmesh is the other thing. What's it called? Anyway, so I forget. Uh Pecmesh is uh the grape molasses, right?
I can't remember what it's called. Anyway, it's called something. Uh so so and a lot of cultures have this thing, and then uh but the issue is is if it's too soft, it'll just blast apart on you. And if it's too hard, you can soften it in the nuke, but when you if you're not extremely quick, it'll chill, and when it chills, it hardens and then it'll rupture, sometimes explosively. It's quite amusing to watch me getting covered in things and yelling and screaming and cursing when that happens.
Uh but I would try just going a degree or two lower and then uh letting it come like letting the thing uh the temperature rise as as it comes off the thing. Are you not altering the batch size, are you? Uh I cut it in half once, and then I tried to do the full one because it's just me in my apartment. I don't need, you know, two pounds of candy. I've never tried it with a smaller batch size, and it might be that the batch size you're getting a faster rise in temperature with a smaller batch size.
The larger batch size was just as hard as the small one. Uh the first time I did it, I had it in half, and it got up to temp in like 17 minutes. Maybe that was the issue. Yeah, yeah. But I'll give it another shot and let you guys know how it goes, along with that avocado thing.
Alright, cool. Thanks, brother. Alright, thanks. Keep up the great work. Love the show.
Uh-huh. Thank you very much. All right. Anna writes in, and by the way, Anna busted Nastasha, female listener, totally busted. She's married.
Oh. Oh, wait, so wait, she's not a woman now? She's not a woman because she's married. What the hell's that? That was why she didn't yeah.
Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But anyway, but n Nastasha's point was that we have absolutely no female listeners, and not only a female listener, but one from Budapest. So Well, now my point is we have no single female listeners.
Or or or none that are interested in me. Right. Right, right. Okay. So anyway, uh fur further trials with Dulce de Leche.
Here we go. Uh Anna writes in. I just wanted to give you a shout out that I've listened to all your episodes and currently up to date with the podcast. Thank you. Uh, you guys make my base baking sessions at home even more entertaining, and I have learned a great deal from you, which uh for which I'm very thankful.
If you were still not tired of my dulce de leche questions, it really can't be enough dulce de leche questions, right? I mean, it's a good product. The banging you might hear is from the lunatics upstairs, I guess they're like, they're beating a tree to death. There's trees growing on top of us, and I think they're beating a tree to death. Oh, really?
I don't know. Well, in order to build a tree house, you have to beat a tree to death. Okay, so uh dulce dilation. Here's uh uh dulce de leche. Here's a new one.
Uh, how do I prevent the sugar in dulce de leche from recrystal uh recrystallizing? The cream turned out uh beautiful the way you told me uh it would, but after a week or two it started having little sugar crystals in it, and we would like to give it uh homemade dulce de leche to our guests at our wedding. And if it's not married yet, not married yet, at the wedding, yeah. Uh and it would be nice to give them something that stays smooth. Should I put golden syrup in it?
Thank you very much in advance. Hi from Budapest, Anna. Okay. It's not sugar per se, that it's not table sugar that's causing uh the graininess in your dulce de leche. It is lactose.
And what happens is that when you heat the uh and concentrate the the milk, making the dulce de leche, you all of a sudden put the lactose in a position that it is super saturated once it cools. And so over time, lactose will A crystallize and then B, form larger and larger crystals, agglomerate until the lactose crystals get to a point where it tastes sandy in your mouth, at which point very difficult to get rid of them. Now, I you should be able to reheat your dulce de leche in like a water bath all the way up. You have to go above 93, I think, or above, you know, 85, 93 to get it to go redissolve again. I don't know how long you have to keep it there.
But that's not going to solve your problem because what you want to do is give it as a gift and then uh and then have it stay good for a long period of time. So uh, you know, that's probably not going to help you. The reheating it. Okay. Now, the way that they do it, the way they do it in condensed milk, right?
If you're I know you're not making dulcetal lache from condensed milk because you were doing it the old-fashioned way, but the way that they make sweetened condensed milk not have this problem is they add miniature lactose, very, very fine lactose seed crystals as it's cooling down. And by doing that, they seed it with such small crystals that the crystals are small enough that you don't uh sense them in your in your on your tongue. Okay? Also not an option for you. Although it might be possible to add a small amount of uh sweetened condensed milk to the dulcetal leche as it cools down to seed it with the small crystals.
I don't know how much you'd need to add, and you'd want to add them when the stuff is around 35 uh Celsius, at a place where it's still liquid enough to move around, uh, but that you know it's uh not hot enough that it's going to dissolve the C crystals. Okay. Uh also this is probably not going to work out for you. There are various stirring regiments and cooling regiments, but I couldn't find one that reliably worked, right? So here's down to my last one.
See what you think about this. You can buy lactase. Lactase is the enzyme that breaks down lactose into its two constituent sugars. Okay. If you add lactase to uh the milk, which you can, I think get at pharmacies, right?
Because people who are lactose intolerant can buy lactase and put, or you can just buy lactose uh uh free milk, but you know, you could do it yourself because you might have a milk that you like, right? You add the lactose to it. The lactose will break up uh the lactase will break up the lactose, but right, see, lactose is necessary in the thing, in the in the mix because it's a reducing sugar, right? So that's a reduced, so straight sucrose uh I don't think inverts enough into the uh dulcetylchee to provide a reducing sugar such that it's gonna get uh adequate browning. So some people use glucose, they add glucose, which re but speeds up the browning sometimes too much, which is why you have to limit the amount of glucose you add.
But if you break down the lactose, it'll still have uh its reducing sugars when you break it down. And according to uh advanced dairy chemistry, volume three, lactose, water, salts, and minor constituents. If you add uh, you know, a lactase and convert a mere 30 or or 40% of the lactose in the milk, then that's enough to prevent recrystallization of the lactose as it as it cools down. So go buy that, add it to the milk, let it sit around for a day, then make your dual state of Huff should not crystallize. Although please run a test before your wedding because I do not want to ruin your uh your your wedding gifts out out to your people.
Another interesting thing I read about in that book uh is that I'd always assumed that the baking uh soda that people add to the dual state alH was there to enhance the myard reactions by making the product more basic. But it also turns out uh that it has another purpose. Now I'll just read it directly from advanced dairy chemistry. Uh gluc uh, where is it? Um bum bum.
The mixture of milk and sugars is first neutralized with calcium hydroxide or sodium bicarbonate. So they're they're using baking soda or or uh calcium oxide, to obtain a pH of 7.0 or a titratable acidity equivalent to 2 to 10 milligrams of lactic acid per blah blah blah blah blah. Uh neutralization avoids the destabilization of casein micells as a consequence of the decrease in pH during evaporation, which in turn is due to the concentration of calcium phosphate, the formation of organic acids from lactose degradation, and the hydrolysis of phosphoric esters of caseins. So there's actually acid being formed in the milk as it is being boiled down, which can lead to the destabilization of casein micells. Did not know that.
Didn't we have a collar date? Colour, you're on the air. Hello? Hi. Hi.
I'm calling I've got a s slightly strange question. I want to know about the process that you think of emulsifying beef tallow. Just straight up, you know, if you were to trying to make a foam or a froth, say, could you like run it through an ISI container or use a hand blender? And then once you did that, if you could do that, what would you stabilize it with? I mean without uh straight beef fat.
Huh. So I mean you're gonna want to add if you're gonna add an emulsifier to aerate the beef fat, you're gonna want to add something that is um uh lipophilic, right? So you're gonna you're gonna add uh probably um mono and diglycerides or lecithin, right? Right. But I've never like you'd have to somehow aerate it and keep the aeration stable so that you could chill it, right?
Yeah, and that's that's where I'm sort of scratching my head. Like you can sort of maybe get it to you know be like a delicate snowflake for a a few minutes, but how do you get it to stay that way? Mmm. Hmm aerated fat aerated straight fat, not like aerated I mean it would be easy if you uh emulsify the stuff into a water base, right? And made a fake cream and then kind of whip that up like like coo whip, right?
Yeah, of course. Like cooip with but you but you want straight fat. Straight fat. Yeah. Uh well let me see chocolate is mostly straight fat and I gotta remember what they use to emulsify chocolate when they make the aerated chocolate stuff.
Oh that's interesting. Yeah. I mean of course there is other so there's solids in it, but there's no other liquids in chocolate, right? Right. So and cocoa butter is a little I mean it's firmer, obviously firmer than beef fat, but you can set the sucker up.
Uh I mean, if you were to whip air into it, right? Yeah, then wait until it's almost kind of until it started to set up. And you might need to add an emulsifier like monondiglycerides are like less thin or something. Well lesser thin, yeah. Less than might work because that's what they have in chocolate.
They don't put monoglycerides in chocolate. And then uh put it in a vacuum machine, suck a vacuum on it so it aerates the same way that like Wiley's aerated foie works, or you know, that's interesting. Yeah, okay. Heston's aerated chocolate or any one of these things, and then um, you know, put that sucker in ice water uh to set it. You might be able to get it to you might be able to get it to work.
That's cool. I will uh screw around with it and see what I can get it to to land on. Thanks for the ideas. Hey, no problem. And if anyone else out there has an idea, tweet it on in and we'll tweet it back out.
Great, thanks so much. Thank you. Oh, oh, you thanks. Paul Peterson wrote in about the dairy-free ice cream we talked about last week. Just listen to last week's podcast and have a thought about non-dairy ice cream.
I don't have my full recipe with me at the moment, but I make mine using soy creamer, heated low on a burner to incorporate sugar and often other flavors, uh, e.g. mint, and then I cool it in the fridge overnight along with a can or two of coconut milk. The next day I scoop the solid fat off the top, blend it with the rest of the base, and then freeze it as indicated. The recipe is surprised many people when they're told it's dairy free, and it's nearly impossible to taste the coconut flavor. Paul Peterson.
And uh in addition, uh Ellie Nasser wrote in uh Dave Ari uh regarding dairy-free gelato, modernist cuisine at home makes awesome flavors using nut butter, juice, oil, and cornstarch. Remember Nils and I remember that one we used to make styles like years ago, the pistachio? And then Modernist Cuisine made the same one, and then we were demoing in the same, like, but different. Sorry. Yeah, but the trick with nut butters, if you're gonna use nut butter in a non-dairy ice cream, sucker has to be smooth.
Smooth. Which is why, you know, if you're gonna use commercial stuff, a lot of the natural products, like they're kind of grainy. Whereas, you know, you know, our good our good buddies at Jiffy and Skip know how to grind those peanuts until there's some tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny particles so that you can't taste them. And when we were using nut butters to make them uh back at the FCI, uh, you know, we were we were we were first blending them, we were first robokooing them, then vita prepping them, then putting them in a Santa wet grinder to reduce the particle size down to you know almost nothing, and then spinning them in a centerfuge to further get the the the larger particles to settle out so that we had a super creamy thing. And so we got a super creamy result.
Your results may vary. Uh uh, okay. Um should we take a quick break? Yeah. Okay, welcome back uh after our first commercial break, cooking issues.
Today's program has been brought to you by Rolling Press. Rolling Press is a family-run commercial offset print house that brings together environmentally friendly methods, ethical practices, and personalized service. Founded in 1998 by Eugene Lee and his father, Cam Lee, rolling press represents the harmony of traditional craftsmanship and green technology. Rolling press prints using soy and vegetable inks, uses a variety of certified and recycled papers, and they incorporate a chemical-free production process. For more information, visit rollingpress.com, and we're not going to be able to do that.
The song is for uh Harold McGee. He wrote one of my favorite books called On Food and Cooking. You ever want your eye a souffle who rise? It's about gas expansion and water that big bowl is. Yeah, food science rules.
His knowledge race. And I answer he sings a day. He's got big brains. It wears a sweater vest, Iconic Harold. Yeah, he's better than you.
And just like me, you wanna be a part of his food science crew, or at least I do. Maybe not you, but isn't it obvious? That crazy belt Harold, and he's all shiny for my science fell, and I can't wait until the day that we meeters don't know who'll be the best of friends. What's talk about my reactions? My favorite line, Harold McGee, he's better than you.
But I wasn't directing towards you, didn't I? No, it's in general, this in general. I like that. I like that table over there. He watched me.
There's a person from Boardwalk Empire here. Yeah, the guy with the killed off one in the second season. I haven't watched it yet! Oh god, whatever. Okay.
Well, thank you. Uh we will uh call Harold McGee and ha make sure he listens to that. I wouldn't, if I had known, I could have called him beforehand and had him listen. Well, I don't know what he's doing. He's probably in some other country right now.
Who knows? Yeah, he's always flying around the world being Harold with his fabulousness, his mired reactions. Uh Jay Matthew Miller writes in. By the way, Jay Matthew Miller, patent attorney. Said so on his uh on his on his email.
Uh hey there, cooking issues gang. The pumps for the New Orleans public water system lost power over the weekend because of a fire in the power generation facility. The loss of power caused a loss of pressure in the water system. As a result, they've issued a boil water alert recommending that everyone bring water to a rolling boil for 60 seconds. Our work coffee machines apparently heat watered at 180 degrees, which is then either kept in a thermal carafe or on a hot plate, so at a temperature for at least a little while.
Is 180 degrees Fahrenheit, 82.2 degrees C, hot enough for whatever might be lurking in that water, or is there really a need to bring it to 212 degrees? Uh thanks, love the show. Keep up the good work and can't wait to hear about the Kickstarter. Well, uh, we already talked about the Kickstarter. But uh you are exactly right.
Your coffee machine well here's the thing, right? You got two problems here. Water might taste like dirt, right? Might be crap. If that mean like and I don't just mean literally crap.
Like the water might taste bad. Now, uh that's not gonna get solved by uh by the boiling, right? Although I guess you could flock stuff out by boiling it, right? Anyway. But um here's the thing.
Uh you don't need to heat it up to the boil. In fact, I found some very interesting articles on water pasteurization in places like Africa. Now, uh, in places that don't have uh safe water, or if there's an epidemic going around and they issue a water boiling thing, the problem is it takes a lot of resources to bring actual water to the boil. It takes a lot fewer resources in terms of wood to burn, fuel to use, whatever, to bring water up to a lower temperature. So there's a bunch of articles out there uh that show that in fact uh heating to 65 degrees Celsius is adequate, uh, you know, assuming that everything is heated through to 65 degrees Celsius, is adequate to assure that you uh pasteurize your water such that it's safe to drink.
Uh I mean, assuming it doesn't have some inorganic crap in it that's you know, like poison. If it's got poison in it, then boiling's not gonna help it anyway. Poison. Uh so uh they what's really cool is that these guys have developed these, and if you go to, I think it's like solarcooking.com or something like that, uh, these guys have developed this really cool system for use in in places without power, uh, where you make a trough and the sun is heating the water and they have a little vial of a little air-filled vial that has a um solidified soy protein, uh not soy protein, soy fat in it. The soy fat melts at exactly 154 degrees Fahrenheit, and it's in the top of this vial that's fl that's weighted down but is like floating in the water, and you can and the it's down at the bottom, which is the coldest part of the water.
And if you look at it and the fats run to the bottom of the tube, it means it's melted and your whole thing came to temperature. So it's a quick verification that your that your stuff is worked, and then you just re melt the fat, invert it, and it's ready to go again. So, yes, uh, it's something I didn't know about. Uh this uh whole uh solar solar pasteurization of water in places, but there you have it, sixty-five. So sixty-five being below eighty two, eighty-two should be good.
Right? That's a kind of good question. Okay. Um at uh Barriatua writes in Are there any can't miss technical food events in New York City at the week of March twenty sixth? Nastash, are there any technical food events in the week of March twenty sixth?
We're doing something at the Boulet uh kitchen, test kitchen. Yeah, but that's just Bruno Gusseau is coming in and doing a thing, and then we're just going to like chill out for him, right? They're teaching a class? Yeah. Well, there you have it.
A chance to see the great Bruno Gusseau at David Boole's test kitchen. There might still be space available. I have no idea. We're supposed to go in and just shill out from a little bit, right? They should go to www.l e c R E A dot com.
Wow, I just couldn't pay attention to what you're saying. Say that again. Hey, like me. Are you on zappos? Yeah, yeah.
I am. L-E-C-R-E-A.com. Oh, Krea. Yeah, Krea is Bruno Gusseau's uh school. Anyway, okay, okay.
Hey guys, I gotta jump in. What up? March 27th, Heritage Radio Network Second Salon Party, which will be on the hunt for the city's best vodka cocktail. Maybe not the most tech event, but still pretty cool. I mean, uh, we make a pretty good vodka cocktail.
Okay, okay. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Uh at Cut Hancock. And there's really there's other ways to read that which are not as uh family friendly.
But at cut at Cut Hancock writes in, what is the name of the Apple Preserve in England? I'm traveling to London in two weeks and was hoping to visit. Thanks. Oh, there's not going to be much there now, I think, on the on the trees figured out, but it is the Brogdale, the Brogdale. Uh, and it's it's at it's in Kent uh in a town called Favisham.
It's called the Brogdale. Nastash has been there. Nastash and I have been there now a couple times. Or no, you went once and I went once with McGee. Okay.
Uh all right. Um let me see. I don't know. Do that one last because I'm gonna scream about it for a long time. Okay.
David Wilkie writes in from Huntington Beach, California. Where is that, Sus? On the beach. Duh. Is it north or south?
South. Oh, okay. Over where you're from. Mm-hmm. Okay.
Uh about eggs. Hey, Dave, Nastasha et al. I recently read uh HCP blah blah blah uh about how to make a naked egg. You just search how to make a naked egg. You can find it.
I know it's possible to dissolve the shell off a raw egg using vinegar, which leaves the raw egg intact uh in a semi-permeable membrane. I also know that this ruins the flavor of the egg completely. I popped one open and fried it up post-dissolve. It was awful. Solid vinegar in the shape of a fried egg.
Not just vinegar, though, there's also a lot of dissolved calcium in there, and the calcium's gross. Because if you've ever eaten an eggshell, eggshells are not so bueno. You know what I mean? And so, like that calcium, what you're doing with the vinegar is you're taking the calcium carbonate that's in the shell and dissolving it in a solution. So you're probably also getting a nasty calcium taste on top of the vinegar taste.
So it's probably a double whammy of nastiness. Anyway, whatever. I also now know you can dehydrate a deshelled egg by soaking it. By the way, here's what doesn't work. You cannot re-eg it.
You can't like take the egg after you've dissolved the shell and then put it in calcium hydroxide and have it reincorporate into uh into a shell. A couple people have said that you can, and I tried it. I've tried it like five different times. You can't do it anyway. Why would you want to?
Uh I don't know. Like, you know, someone's like, well, I'm gonna like take an egg, like reform it into a new shape, reharden the shell. Like, you know how this you know like the Japanese square egg makers? Right, right, right. Yeah.
Which but they, you know, they make squared eggs out of shelled eggs, not out of eggs in the shell. Right. So anyway, whatever. But uh someone said, Can you do it? So I was like, no, no, no, I'll try it.
Back when I had more time to try things, and it doesn't work. Doesn't work. Okay. Uh back to Dave's questions. I also know that you can dehydrate a deshelled egg by soaking it in corn syrup.
I'm not confident this will make it taste any better, if not somehow worse, so I haven't tried it yet. What got me excited is learning that if you deshell a raw egg in vinegar, then dehydrate it. You can rehydrate it in water. If the raw egg absorbed the flavor of vinegar, I'm thinking it also absorbs some of the flavors present in the liquid to rehydrate it. So why not deshell and dehydrate a raw egg, then rehydrate it with chicken stock or any other flavorful liquid?
That's just the first one I thought of. It seems you would be uh you'd be able to get a unique intensity of flavor that would be much different from pickled eggs or tea eggs, and the egg still being raw allows it to be used in other preparations and form. Formza. I'm imagining preparations uh like flavor-infused fried eggs, for example. Uh so the first issue I'm having is dissolving the shell without ruining the flavor.
Uh, and then after that, how else could you go about dehydrating it without corn syrup? Will corn syrup osmosis harm the flavor? Is there a better method maybe storing with desiccant packs, blah, blah, blah. Well, no, I don't think desiccant pacts are gonna work. You're probably gonna want to use osmosis, otherwise you're gonna have otherwise you're gonna have some problems.
The issue is look, the real question is what we don't know is what can make what I don't know, I should say, you might know, is uh what can go through. The key thing is semi-permeable. So the question is what can go through and what can't. Uh clearly, if the inside of your thing tasted like vinegar, then vinegar can make it through the membrane, right? Clearly, water can make it through the membrane.
That's why osmosis is working. Uh can protein make it through the membrane? I would guess not. So, you know, uh, can other peptides make it through the membrane? Meh, I don't know.
So the the question is which flavors are going to be able to transfer through? Like, can you get sugars through? Can you get, I mean, clearly vinegar you can get through. So it's a question of what can go through and and what can't. Uh as a question of what you can do uh for flavoring it.
But it it it sounds interesting. I have to give it kind of more thought rather than just a morning thinking about it. This is the kind of thing that, you know, as Joel is saying, McGee has probably thought of once or twice. Probably. He's he's thought of everything.
He well, yeah, he's he does think of it, because he just sits around thinking, and he doesn't tell you about it until he's pretty sure he's right. That's the thing about McGee. He doesn't just he doesn't just go spouting off. Uh so um I wouldn't think desiccant packets would work because what you want to do, you don't want to have a case hardening situation, which you would probably get in the membrane, you probably turn it into a thing. Uh also I would go with a very high acid vinegar so that you could dissolve the shell extremely quickly and not wait for all the acid to diffuse through the membrane if you want to get less in.
So go buy if you go to Russian stores, you can buy 10% vinegar, which is pretty hardcore. Uh I have some. Remember, Stas, when we went to go get Kavas and I bought all that 10% vinegar? 10% vinegar, badass. And then you could probably also uh neutralize the vinegar somewhat, although that will still leave some acetic taste if you've ever tasted uh acetates, different acetates, uh you know, uh vinegar salts.
Anyway, but uh give that a shot. Sorry, I do not have more good information with that. Um wait, we have we're we actually have a little bit of time. We do. I sped through that so fast.
Uh, by the way, Jason uh Bizant wrote in to you, Nastasha, just checking is this the correct email address to send a question? And clearly, since I'm reading it, it is it is uh would love to call, but I live in Tasmania and then in Parents, Australia. Like, really? You're calling out the Australia, you're not like Tas Tasman Pride that you're just like, I'm from Tasmania. Like, we don't know where that is.
You gotta remember, everyone in the United States grew up with the Tasmanian devil. We all know where Tasmania is. Like, ask us any other like country or place. We have no idea where the hell it is. But like everyone's like, Tasmanian devil, I gotta look up where that thing comes from, and they go look at them, right?
I'm pretty sure I don't know where Prague is. No, yeah, but Tasmania? Absolutely. Yeah, hell yeah. As far as I'm concerned, this is the Tasmanian devil writing in to cooking issues.
Yeah, right? As far as you know, Tasmanian devils are like kind of awesome. Like, because like you've seen their mouths when they open their mouths? No. Oh man, just Google the Tasmania because Dax, my son has done this many times.
He's like, Tasmanian devils. He's like, who would win? A Tasmanian devil or a Wolverine. I was like, Dax, that just doesn't come up. That just doesn't come up.
You know? Uh okay. Uh Al Salstrom wrote in. Can one use gentian, quinine, etc. as beer as a beer bittering agents?
Do different herbs produce noticeably different bitter flavors? Obviously, hop flavorslash aroma involves a lot that goes beyond that, but I'm curious about the differences in bitter compounds. Okay, look. Bitter, unlike acid. First, I'm not going to get into like what I believe and what I what I don't believe or my uh the fact that I'm freaked out that different acids have uh different flavors even though they're non-volatile and even though they don't all have bitter components, right?
I don't I still don't fully understand why it is that malic acid tastes different than citric acid. But to a first order approximation, sourness is a relatively simple flavor in that uh it it it activates one type of receptor only in your tongue. Uh ditto with sugar. Different sugars have different flavors because they have different onsets of sweetness and different different uh aftertastes and different off notes, for instance. I hate stevia.
Can we buy IHate Stevia.com or is that already taken? I can check. Does anyone like stevia? Oh god, no. No, this stuff sucks.
Like, just hey, I'd rather have no sugar than have that stevia crap. That stuff is ruined. And then they're like, well, I came up with a way that I can mask the awful taste of the stevia. Me too. I don't use it.
Sucks. It feels like I'm like I'm chewing on a soap bar. Yeah, it's awful. And like you're like someone will hand it to you, and then it like it leaves this poisonous aftertaste. It's horrible.
The domains available. Oh can we buy I hate stevia dot com? Jack, can you buy that? It's fifteen bucks. Yeah, we'll do it.
Done. Boom! Anyone out there who wants it, write in and we'll give you an email address at I hate stevia.com. Okay. Do the other one that you want to buy.
Which one? I hate. I hate which one. I hate.me. Are you?
Oh, is that available? Everyone hates that one. Oh, yeah, everyone hates.me. That's available? Yeah, because I just opened the Montenegro.
They just opened the Montenegro website, uh, you know, domains.me. And so I was gonna get everybody hates dot me, and then I could be like, I'm David, everybody hates.me. That'd be pretty awesome. You want to buy that one too, Jack, while we're at it? Indie Jesus.me also available.
Oh! But he's the only one that can what what what would his address be? Me at indiees.me. Yeah. Uh okay.
Back to the question. Back to the question. Stay on task. So, um so here's the thing. Uh coup couple of things with bitterness.
Uh so sweetness is like a a similar receptor, sourness, ditto salt. Bitterness i there are many different bitter receptors on your tongue. So uh there's all these different uh umami, I guess also, uh s what one one set of things. But bitterness has many different receptors, and so there are consequently very many different types of bitterness. In fact, uh I taste a lot of bitter things, but I I'm a very low taster for prop, which is what they use to determine whether so uh depending on our genetics, you know, some of us will have either a very, very strong reaction to the chemical prop, who's I can't remember what the name of the thing is.
Right. And those people in in general uh are l are called super tasters, and it used to be thought, and by so some people still is thought that your ability to taste prop uh correlated with the number of taste buds and therefore how well you could taste uh other things. Uh Professor Zucker at Columbia says that's a load of horse hockey, but whatever, you know, nobody knows. So uh so prop, you can uh totally lack the gene for tasting prop, and you're called a non-taster, or you could be a regular taster somewhere in between. You guys ever taken the prop test?
No. Yeah, you put the strip on your thing, and some people will think it just tastes like paper, and some people will be like blah, and then some people be somewhere in the middle. I can bear barely, if at all, taste it, right? But other bitter compound compounds I'm extremely sensitive to. So uh, and it just is this one category of bitter receptors that you know I'm deficient in.
Stasi, well, what's your stuff? Do you like I don't remember? You don't remember? No. Uh anywho, uh so the the the point is is that bitterness can be very different depending on your doing what you're doing.
But it's like you know, quinine, super freaking bitter, you know what I mean? So you can use it, but it's not gonna be the same bitterness that you get in beer. Now, bittern and and you can get many beers. There's a the old form of beer uh was called uh one of the old forms was called uh gruet, uh and it's uh herbed beer without hops. Remember, hops, although in use for a long time in beer in uh Germany and in that area, didn't spread throughout the rest of Europe until relatively late, like in the 14-15 hundreds, right?
Uh, and didn't become dominant until like around that time, I think 14, 15, maybe even a little bit later in every area. And so some people have even tried to bring back beer styles that don't have any hops in them. I mean, most notable were the ones I used to get. There's a Scottish beer company, and I have it somewhere in this mass of letters that I have on my thing. But I've tried their beer.
They have a Heather beer, they have a kelp beer. I like the Heather beer, but not the Kelper. And a pine beer. The pine beer I actually really liked with spruce. But hops is not the only thing it's not the bitterness is not the only reason it's there.
Also, it's there because hops acts as an antimicrobial as a preservative in beer. So if you're gonna have uh uh a hop free beer, you want to make sure that you're not gonna have other things growing in it. Now, hops, the article to look at uh is I have it here written down for you. Uh beer spoilage bacteria and hop resistance. And you can get the whole thing on the internet.
And it has a really interesting history of hops using and and what it's doing. Hops destroys what are called gram positive bacteria. So bacteria divide one of the ways to divide bacteria roughly is into gram positive and gram negative bacteria. And it was based on this guy, Graham from Denmark, these Danish people, Danes. Uh no offense, love danes, love danes.
Anyway, so uh he this developed this way of staining bacteria to look at them under the microscope, and you know, didn't didn't really understand the significance of it. It turns out that it it's actually quite significant, not just to whether or not it stains a particular color, but to what the outside of the like what the outside of the bacteria is, whether it has a uh you know an extra lipid layer on the outside of the bacteria. So it actually is a good way to determine like whole different sections of bacteria. Anyway, some gram positive bacteria of interest are uh lactobacillus and uh Petiococcus, and these bacteria are some of the most common spoilers bacteria in beer, giving it nasty ropiness and kind of lactic off flavors, right? And hops nukes those things, right?
Whereas gram-negative things like acetobacter, it doesn't get as heavily affected. And right now, actually, it's weird. There's some there's some uh lacto uh there's some lactic acid bacteria that are becoming resistant to hops and they're becoming of renewed interest. Uh and when I was reading this, I learned here's some other nasty ones. Here's some nasty uh all uh gram things that aren't killed by hops.
Ready for these? Uh pectinitis, which provides extensive turbidity and an offensive rotten egg smell. And my favorite, megasphera, the production of hydrogen sulfide causes a fecal odor in beer. That's my favorite part of beer. My favorite is the fecal odor, which makes this bacterium one of the most feared organisms for brewers.
Right? Good news is no one kill you. None of this stuff will kill you. My brother's actually a brewer. Really?
Yeah, he owns a brewery and uh just started up called Thimble Island Brewery in uh Brantford, Connecticut. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, Thimble Island, you know, I never went out there. Here it's nice out there though.
Thimble Islands. I was actually on one of those tour boats when I was a kid, and I was I was a first mate. Yeah? And then I got fired. For hopefully not for excessive Thimble Island beer drinking.
No, no, no. I I fell asleep and he ran over a buoy and he got mad. Uh yeah, well, there you have it. Yeah. Buoys.
Booyah. But anyway, yeah, so uh he hasn't run into a fecal smelling uh problem in his beer, but I'm gonna make him aware of it. Well, why don't we ship them a uh uh a sample of megasphera bacteria can mix it in and we can make some some strong some thimble island fecal beer. Do you think that would sell in Brooklyn? It seems like some people would catch on to.
I I guarantee you it would sell out here. So all you gotta do is tell them that it makes them more hip. They could put on their Grato headphones and drink their fecal beer and they'll they'll love it. Alright, which brings me to the last thing before we have to leave No, okay, I love you, Brooklyn. Come on.
Okay. Which brings me to my last thing. Uh Miller High Life, the champagne of beers, right? We're all familiar with the Miller High Life, correct? So Miller High Life, we serve it in the bar in the little miniature pony bottles, which these tiny bottles, as a garnish.
If the beer is a garnish to a salty drink we make called the Corsair. The Corsair, we we uh we spin clarify, we blend and spin clarified lemons, not to make them 100% clear, but just to make them thinner so that they work in a shaking drink and to get rid of a lot of the albedo, which we melt with uh pectin X ultra SPO. So preserved lemon, uh Moroccan style, hence Corsair, you know, Moroccan pirates, and uh lime juice and tequila, and makes a super salty drink that I like, and then we serve it with this little uh like pony of Miller High Life as the garnish. Now here's the thing. Uh how is it for all of because everyone knows who thinks about beer that hops when expos hop compounds, right, which is uh humulones get decomposed uh in war in the wort boiling to isohumulones, which are the actual bidding bittering agents that are soluble in water.
Uh so it's isohumulones that are there, iso alpha acids as they're known, and these suckers in the in the presence of ultraviolet light, right, uh break down and form skunky components by scavenging sulfur in it. And a really good uh really good um treatment of it that I thought was very readable and seemed accurate from what I can remember and what I know, is Light Strike in uh in advance uh Light Strike Advanced Brewing uh by Chris Bible. The guy's name is Chris Bible. How can you forget it? But he has a little web article that's really nice on it where he actually tells you what the compounds are that are being broken apart in a very readable way that I thought was very good.
So go check it out for stuff on Light Strike. But here is the interesting part. Miller High Life comes in a clear bottle and does not get skunked. How do you do it? I don't know.
Yeah, right. Neither did I. They use uh these uh uh hop acid extracts that have been dorked with so that they don't skunk out anymore. And on the way out, I'm just gonna read you what they do. Um under under Chris Bible's section, another approach of protecting beer from light strike.
Apart from storing beer in light proof containers, which is duh the right way to do it, except for the fact that Miller High Life's bottle is so awesome that you don't want to mess with Miller High Life just to keep the beer good, right? Kidding. Uh but the uh kidding. Uh so apart from storing beer in lightproof containers, the photosensitivity of beer can be reduced by chemically altering the isoalpha acids so that the chemical precursor to the photochemical reaction responsible for producing light struck, aka skunked flavor, is not present within the beer. Iso alpha acids can be converted to reduced isoalpha acids by hydrogenation or by reaction with sodium borohydride.
Three major types of reduced isoacids can be produced dihydro, tetrahydro, and hexahydro. Interestingly, I don't have time to read the whole thingamajig, but interestingly, they still break apart when they're hit by light, but the stuff that's broken apart doesn't form the nasty skunkiness. And this is how Miller High Life, the champagne of beers, can maintain the clarity and beauty of its pony-sized bottles without having the skunk flavor. Thank you, Joel! Till next week, cooking issues.
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