This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine, and co-founder of Chef Steps.com. We've just launched a free course on spherification that's quick and to the point. It teaches the fundamentals and then reveals the details the best chefs use to create amazing dishes that border on culinary alchemy. Sign up now at Chefsteps.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn.
If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Cooking issues! Cooking issues! Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of cookies.
Oh, cooking what? Cooking what? Cooking issues. Coming to you live from a birth pizzeria in the back of Butchwick, Brooklyn! On the Heritage and Host of Cookies.
I wish. Yeah. Can we start a new show? It's called Host of Cookies. Actually, that would be Tozy's show, right?
That would be Christina Tozie's show. She could be the host of the show. Cookies issues, yeah. Cookies issues? She could she can handle that.
Maybe she should just maybe we could get her to guest host one time and just do cookies issues. Right? What do you think, Seth? Sounds good. Yeah?
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Save us a week of work. Uh anyway, joined as usual with Nastasha, the Hammer Lopez. How do you do Sass?
Good. Yeah? Yes. Anything uh interesting uh happening? Nothing.
Really? Not since I saw you eight hours ago. Uh remember, the people who are listening haven't heard from you since last week. Yeah, you know. Thank people.
How many years have we done this show, Jack? I think going on like three now, right? Three years. Something like that. Three years.
Nastasha still has not figured out that the people who are hearing this don't hang out with us all the time. Weird, right? Well, I haven't done anything interesting since the last time I spoke. Have you? It's kind of sad.
Um have I? I don't know. I feel like I have. I don't know. I have to think about what I did last uh last week, and I feel like I have, but I haven't thought about it.
What about you, Jack and Joe in the engineering booth? Uh I'm going to Bonaroo with Heritage Radio and Roberta's on Wednesday. Nice. Nice. Tomorrow?
We're throwing up a pizza party there. Nice. And well, I did do something interesting actually last Tuesday, right after the radio show, uh, in the evening, Heritage Radio had its first ever all host meeting. Right, Jack? All host meetings.
Nice. Sweet. And uh, you know, uh maybe maybe after the uh first uh break, maybe Jack can say some of the changes that are gonna be happening on uh on our fine network over the next over the next year or so, right? Lots of fun stuff. Yeah, you want to do that?
Sure. Alright, cool. Uh all right, now uh and Joe, I didn't hear anything from you. You doing all right? Well, I'm covering for Jack while he goes to Bonaro, so so not so much.
So you're you're gonna be you're gonna be moping. All right. Last week we had a question about oh, by the way, calling your questions to 7184972128. That's 7184972128. We're gonna be here for the next 45 minutes or so, ready to answer your questions.
Now last week we got a question in that I wasn't prepared to answer about phosphates and dishwashing detergents. So, uh for those of you that don't know, uh a couple of years ago, uh a bunch of states, and then I think finally the federal government said, you know what, you're gonna have to reduce the amount of uh phosphates or eliminate phosphates uh in detergents like laundry detergent. Now, the the big one has a it has it's a it's all the same crud, but it it's it's um it's either called uh it's trisodium phosphate, but it's also like you know, sodium tri polyphosphates and sodium, so it's either like uh, you know, TSP, STP, STPP, uh, and uh what they are uh is just awesome detergent awesomeness. So lots of things are like that though, right? So lots of things are amazing at what they do but cause problems.
For instance, asbestos, asbestos, freaking amazing insulator, completely dimensionally stable, uh, you know, really fireproof, um, you know, just awesome from a technical standpoint, awesome. Also kills you. You know, so you know you can't you can't have it both ways. You can't have the the awesome uh fire retardant mitts and also live, it turns out. Um but uh so the phosphates, it's not quite as bad as that.
It's not that it's gonna kill you. The issue with phosphates, and the reason that they were removed is because um, according to a bunch of research, one of the limiting factors in algal growth in uh in water bodies is uh free phosphorus. Uh and so if you dump a lot of extra phosphorus into uh the groundwater and it seeps its way into you know rivers and lakes and streams and whatnot, you'll get huge algal blooms that'll choke uh choke out the the life in there. And so that's why uh they say to get uh rid of the um phosphates. Now, phosphates were introduced into detergents, uh, I think, according to some of the research I was doing when I was poking around, you know, fairly soon after World War II.
And so what are the what do they do? According to Cascade, who is cascade the dishwashing people, who've removed phosphates from their detergent, this is what they say the phosphates do. Phosphates helped with dis uh dishwashing performance by facilitating food removal, removing the calcium that binds to these types of uh these types of food together, and aided in grease removal. They also helped control water hardness and bound suspended soils within the washwater so that they did not redistribute onto the plates. So and so in that little nutshell there, like what tells you is that phosphates, when specifically this kind of phosphate, trisodium phosphate TSP or STP, whatever you want to call it, are freaking amazing because they do a bunch of different things.
First of all, they do uh what's called chelate and sequester uh calcium ions and other metal ions. What those things do uh if you don't do that is they redeposit uh on your on your your stuff and make a film. Also, that disgusting film, you know how stuff is that disgusting film you get around a bathtub? Mm-hmm. Yeah, calcium and stuff, whatnot, different deposits, right?
They can also calcium can bind with the soap, right, and then make insoluble stuff. And also, uh first of all, like molecules like calcium binding with your soap and your surfactants, your detergents, they prevent uh that that detergent from doing the job on the dirt, right? So they shaft you that way, and I think they can also kind of cause those things to deposit into that awful film scum stuff, right? Trisodium phosphate is uh, first of all, it's basic, it's alkaline, so automatically it helps break up organic uh organic uh soils. Most organic soils, including the stuff in dishwashing, uh most of the time, it it is uh broken down well by alkaline things, basic things they break down proteins and fats and whatnot.
So, which is why they're awesome at declogging grease uh in uh in uh what am I thinking about drains, like liquid plumber, right? So they're awesome at that. They also uh they're basic. They also uh chelate and sequester out uh calcium and other ions that that shaft you uh and so they're called what they're there's what's called builders in the trade. And so they do those phosphates that phosphate do a number of different things that it's very hard for one thing to replace it to to fix.
So what are they adding to it uh nowadays? They're adding sodium carbonate. So sodium carbonate, uh, which you can make, you know, McGee uses it for pretzels sometimes. You bake the hell out of baking sodium and it turns from bicarbonate to carbonate. They add this, it's extremely uh alkaline, right?
So it does some of the stuff that uh that the phosphates did. Problem with it is is that's the stuff, I'm pretty sure from from you know noodling around, that's the stuff with the new detergents that's turning your aluminum pots and pans all uh black and disgusting. So the reason why your pots, your aluminum stuff is getting destroyed in the dishwasher now is because of things like sodium carbonate. The other thing, one of the other things they add is sodium percarbonate. So this is actually what's I looked up what's in cascade now, the phosphate-free.
Sodium per carbonate is added, and that is the main uh one of the main ingredients in oxyclean, because it cr uh when you add it to water, it um it degrades and turns into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. So then that also is turning your your aluminum pots gray and disgusting, but it's got the oxyclean stuff, which is supposed to make up for some of the lack of bleaching and cleaning power when they took out the phosphates. They uh they also add sodium citrate, which you know we use in cooking all the time. Uh oh, by the way, also the phosphates, the same reason we use them uh in uh in cooking, they act as kind of emulsifying salts, which is also good at binding the grease and causing it from redepositing. They also have to add uh sodium silicate, which is actually not sodium silicate, it's a it's a specialized metasilicate that they use uh along with uh modified polyacrylate, which is an anti-redeposition agent.
It's the same crap they use in diapers stas to make it in uh absorb all the stuff, but that's uh you know a different form of it. Anyway, so there's a bunch of different things they're adding uh to it to try and get rid of the phosphates, and they haven't totally gotten it right yet. But they are uh apparently working on it. But by all accounts, uh, you know, they they switch because they didn't want to make a bunch of different detergents for all over the country, uh, but they haven't gotten it 100% right yet. But there is there's good news and bad news.
If there's a whole group of people who do not believe this stuff hurts the environment, and if you are one of those people, you can go on the uh they also add some enzymes, by the way, to break down proteins before this stuff uh starts if you have a pre-soaker if you use cold water. Okay. Uh you can go on Amazon and order boxes of uh trisodium phosphate TSP. It's gonna run you around eight dollars the pound uh if you order the uh Savo Gran brand uh and if you order that's that's Amazon Prime. There's another brand called uh well DAP, they're famous people, but they make a TSP that you can get.
I think you can still buy it at Home Depot uh because it's still used uh in pressure washing the sides of buildings prior to painting. So what you can do is just like add a uh you know, add a teaspoon of that to uh to the your regular detergent, and that should phosphorous up the stuff and bring back some of the old goodness of phosphorus. Of course, you might be shafting the environment. What do you think, Stas? Who cares?
Wow. No, that was easy. Yeah, Stas is Stas is gonna go out after this. Uh I I have a meeting, but she's gonna go uh frack. She's gonna go frack some stuff.
Hey Dave, you have a caller on the line. Alright, cool. So that's the that's the issue on detergents. Go buy the stuff if you need to. Otherwise, sit tight.
They're gonna make the stuff work eventually. Caller, you're on the air. Hi, everybody. Howdy. Uh this is Aaron calling from Oregon.
Oh, Oregon. Where in Oregon you have? Yeah. Uh I used to be a dishwasher when I first started out in the industry. I basically had the same well, same problem with all the aluminum pans.
We had the big cling on it. Makes a lot of sense now. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and by the way, just to go back for a second, uh, you can also buy industrial industrial dishwashing stuff can still have the phosphates in it, so you so you can get it.
But that's uh that's a that's a a good note. And I think even the phosphate ones, they will ruin the aluminum somewhat, but just not as badly as the new ones do. The deal is is that the um the sodium carbonate and things like it, what they do is they eat away the protective oxide surface on the aluminum and then allow it to react with the water more. So that that that's that's what's going on. So wait, but before you go though, where in or where in Oregon are you?
Where in Oregon are you? Uh Lake Swego. Uh little South Portland. Yeah. Well, I still have not made I'm I was in Portland recently, but I still have not made it to Corvalis yet, which is my dream to go to Corvalis during berry season.
Uh but you got a question for me? I do. It's about ice cream. A friend of mine owns an ice cream shop here in Portland. And we were having a discussion about making a sea salt ice cream, about adding it in and folding in sea salt to get crunch of sea salt.
Right. But we run into the problem of osmosis and the sea salt itself melting into the mix and frozen base itself. Yes, I would imagine the idea of either powdering it with multixtrin or emulsifying in some sort of fat. But we haven't had the chance or the money or the time basically to test any of it out. I was wondering if you had any ideas on how something like that might work, if it's possible at all.
Well, I mean if uh yes, if you had enough time, I'm sure it's possible. What i any time that salt is contacting a uh a water based uh like a a liquid, you're going to get um you're gonna get salt melting. It's gonna it's just gonna happen, right? So, you know, you're on the right track. You have to protect the salt with something that is insoluble in um in water.
So for instance, you could chocolate coat the salt. You know what I mean? Or you could or you know, uh you don't have to use chocolate chocolate, you could use another solid fat like cocoa butter or something like that and coat the salt. So if you were to take like a like a panning attachment, I'm sure you could pan malting crystals with uh cocoa butter and then fold them into your ice cream and as long as there's no route for the water to enter, I mean it won't last forever, but it'll last a lot longer than you have now. I mean otherwise you're gonna have to do something you know, fairly sophisticated, like coat it with another water insoluble product, like for instance cornzane.
But the problem with cornzane, cornzane is a a protein that's uh soluble in alcohol but not in water. So you would dissolve the xane in high proof ethanol, toss the salt and it won't dissolve the salt out, and then uh you let the alcohol flash off and you get a coating around the salt. I don't know how completely impermeable the zane is, but it's used as a confectionary coating at times to prevent moisture migration, right? But I don't again I don't know how long it's gonna last. Like the third choice, I mean the third choice would be uh, you know, you you could use uh what's called an alpha tending emulsifier and an oil and you mix them, and then as they as they start drying out, they should form a film around the outside of the salt.
But you're gonna need some sort of moisture uh impermeable thing. I mean, the the best I I mean the best thing I can think of is something so chocolate is quite thick. Cocoa butter is fairly thin when it melts, so you might be able to get a constantly churning thing of cocoa butter and get a very thin coating. I'm not sure. You know what I mean?
Or like just make it into like blocks of sugar and uh and sorry, salt and uh something like like uh white uh chocolate or cocoa butter, some sort of solid fat, and then to shatter it, grind it into smaller pieces. Some of the pieces will be totally protected and others won't. You'll get some of the crunch from the chocolate pieces anyway, but inside of that you'll get crystalline crunch. I don't know of a way of preserving individual salt crystals so that they're not gonna melt out though. Does any of this make any sense?
It makes amazing sense, yes. Alright, cool. Um so listen, what what what you should do is if you try any of this stuff, please tweet us back at uh at cooking issues and let us know how it worked, okay? I will. Cool.
Uh I am actually heading down to uh the pear orchards this summer. Oh my god. I hope to see you there. Oh my god, I would love to go this summer. I'm gonna try to make it happen.
I was gonna go to uh the um Miami to do mangoes again this year, and it turns out it's been a horrible mango crop in uh Miami. Are the pears looking okay over there in Oregon? They're coming out pretty strong right now. Sweet. You want to do that, Stuzz?
You want to go to Corvallis? She's like, she doesn't want to go. I'm gonna go. Maybe I'll get McGee to fly up too. Alright, cool.
So uh I'll mention over the air if we're gonna do it. Anyway, thanks for calling in. Let's know how it works. Enjoy the rest of your day, guys. You two.
Okay, so we had a question in from James last week about making raspberry and other fruit flavored gins. Hi, Dave, Nastasha, Jack, Joe, et al. Yeah, we don't have the et al. No at all today. No at all today.
No at all. No at all. Oh, no at all. It's good. I like that.
I enjoy the show and have gotten through the archive, so I'm up to date enough to ask a question. By the way, people, do not feel obliged to listen to everything that we have said uh before you ask uh a question, right? Yeah. Right. Okay.
Uh I've recently tried your agar clarified strawberry gin recipe from uh the cooking issues blog with a slight modification uh from changing from strawberries to frozen raspberries, it not being the season for fresh berries, and easier to get frozen raspberries. Turned out delicious. Uh the end product is a bit cloudy due to my over squeezing of the gel, but this settles out nicely on the sitting. Alongside this, I tried classic infusion technique, just putting raspberries into the gin and letting it sit at an ISI raspberry gin infusion. Each technique gives a gin which is similarly clarified after letting the ISI and Agar one sit to sediment out.
Well, I foolishly didn't keep the gin to raspberry ratio constant for these tests. I would imagine that I can adjust this ratio to match the color and flavor profile of each technique. Do the new techniques simply provide an improved yield, less berries giving a stronger, better flavor, and more rapid processing? If so, what is a good use for the agar clarification alcohol infusion that gives a clarified product when classic infusions won't? Cheers, James.
I think it's exactly uh right. The benefit of um agar clarification techniques is that uh when you do it, you know, you blend the fruit and the uh and the product. And so you get uh you know very fast uh you know mingling of the berry and the the the gin. Uh so the the issue is is your your yield is not going to be as high so you're gonna lose uh product I mean I do it in a centrifuge uh luckily the enzyme I use pectinx ultra spl when I do clarification uh is fairly alcohol insensitive so you can you can blend things directly like that with the enzyme the enzyme breaks down the pectins and boom you spin it out I would recommend even if you're doing regular agar clarification go on modernistpantry uh dot com buy some pectin X ultra SPL to break down the pectins in your slurry before you set it with agar you will increase your yield by 20% at least because it thins it out. Um so and on regular infusions you're just sitting a long time making an AkaVede it can take you know days weeks depending on how strong the infusion is uh you know but again it it it's valid I tend to you know when I'm doing infusions and I want them rapidly it's either because I don't have time or because I feel that the quality of the flavor is going to change as it sits for a long long time.
Strawberry gin for instance when I make strawberry gin very fresh strawberry gin tastes different from strawberry gin that's been sitting around for a long time. So there is changes that take place in it uh as it sits and so sometimes those changes are good sometimes they're bad sometimes they're just different. So when I want very fresh flavors I'll do ISI or I'll do uh but if you do ISI on berries you want uh on strawberries anyway, you want to slice them very thin so you get rapid, rapid penetration. Raspberries is not such a such a big deal. Um another thing you can do if you want to uh do uh raspberries with a more traditional technique is do a pre-treat of the raspberries with uh pectin methylesterase which is novoshape and I think Monitus Pantry is carrying that now.
Uh that will keep the flesh intact over long maceration periods and then put a lot of the raspberries in and it'll even out and then both the raspberry should be good and the uh and the liquor should be good. Most of the time it's either one's good or the other's good but not both, right? Right. Uh oh call caller you're on the air. Hi Dave uh this is Dave.
I actually saw you at uh Roberta's two weeks ago. Oh yeah uh yeah in the I was in New York uh it was awesome. I know Berta's food is great. When a WD50 it was amazing. Nice.
So yeah it was awesome. Uh so yeah I got a question about uh induction burners. Um about to uh uh move into or I'm moving a coffee shop from one to the other and the other space is a little smaller. We don't have a space for a gas stove. So I was thinking of getting an induction burner because uh mainly for you know making syrups and we also make a little bit of ice cream there.
So uh just wondering uh if there's anything I should be looking out for other than size. Well I mean uh so here here's the thing on on induction burners. Uh I I love them. They're they're great, right? Well you gotta make sure you have the the correct power which I'm assuming you do.
Uh you have to figure out how you want your uh stations set up. So the induction burners if you're getting portables or movables right they come as singles, and I I wouldn't bother getting the the little the little home jobby ones, like some people try to use those in industrial settings, but they they kind of crap out on you sometimes, and a lot of times, you know, when you're doing professional stuff, you don't want them to crap out on you. Uh, and the reason they crap out on you is because they don't have sufficient cooling circuits to run the thing hardcore, and so if you try to overdrive them, they they shut down uh in thermal overload, they come back, they don't die permanently, but uh that's kind of an irritating thing to have happen to you uh, you know, when you need to get a bunch of stuff out. So, I mean, and and I think that's the main difference between the relatively inexpensive home ones or the ones that are sold portable for catering that can plug into a regular 110 socket and the much bigger ones. The only of the of the bigger ones, you know, I've really only had experience with the with the cook tech ones, but your main choices are the following.
You can either get single induction hobs, they're obviously the most portable and they take the least electricity, but they only take uh one uh one pot at a time. Uh the other thing is you can get duels. Now the choice in duels is this they have front back duels and they have side-side duels, right? So the advantage of a front-back duel is that you can you can get you can get one and then you can get another one and stick it right next to it, and now you have like a four-burner range, and then you can get another one and stick it right next to it, and now you have six burners and they're all controlled from the front, right? Which is it seems to me to be a pretty big advantage.
Uh but you know, the guys at Sambar had uh one and they were having some problems with it. I don't know whether it's a problem with that unit in particular, but the concept to me is very appealing because it allows you to make a choice now and not be shafted for later. Although nobody wants to cook front back if you only have two. Do you know what I'm saying? If you only have two, you definitely want to cook side-side.
But if you know you're eventually gonna gang up four or six of them, then I'm pretty sure you want to go front back. Um the other thing is is that even you know, five, six, seven years ago when people were buying uh commercial induction units, they always broke, always broke. And the the braking features were uh two two reasons. One, a cook would put a pot down very heavy on the uh glass surface and shatter it. I saw more than five broken that way.
And then uh the other problem was is that everyone wanted the holy grail of range over oven. And if you do range over oven, especially with the electronics the way they had them, you know, years ago, uh they always burned out. It was like inevitable. So, you know, but it doesn't sound like you're gonna have that problem because you're not going hot over, uh you're not you're not going hot over hot. So you're not gonna have probably cooling issues.
You'd want to make sure that those suckers stay ventilated. So it's gonna be a choice for you of of of what kind of configuration you want. You know what I mean? Right. Right.
I mean, I I would I wouldn't I would don't pay it too much attention to I mean get like a powerful one, but remember that wattage in an induction unit is not comparable to wattage in an electrical uh you know resistance uh heated uh uh range top. Uh it's completely non-comparable because the the efficiencies are you know vastly different between the two. Uh so you know, a much smaller wattage is gonna give you uh it in an induction unit is gonna give you the same output that you're gonna get in terms of like the actual heat in the pan as uh as the as the you know the regular old coil units. And also you can't make a good conversion between BTUs in a gas range and uh watts into the uh into the induction. You know, I've had, you know, I I've done races even with the crappy induction versus you know a fairly good gas, and the the induction most of the time is gonna win because it's directly heating the pan.
You get a further mean you're gonna pay more in electricity, no doubt, uh but it you are gonna have less ventilation requirement and it's gonna take less uh HVAC load to cool your kitchen down, should you cool your kitchen down, which you probably will if you know, probably will somewhat. Uh so you you can you can win on those. The only ones I really have experience with though uh on the commercial side are the Cooktex, and I think they work fine. Uh but you know, I don't have a lot of experience with the with the other brands. Is there like a oh a ballpark of like wattage I should be looking out for?
Uh well I'm trying to uh well I mean get as high as you can, right? Uh I mean, you know, they they should be, you know, the ones that run on two twenty, you should be able to get a couple kilowatts into them no problem, right? So the ones that you plug into a regular socket are limited to about fifteen hundred watts. That's about the limit that someone's gonna want to suck out of a wall socket. So a fifteen what's one point five kilowatts.
So a one point five kilowatt induction burner, the you know, the the standard kind of crappy home models, they are pr they work fairly well. They're not as good as an industrial, you know, range like a jade or one of those things, but uh they're pretty good. They're pretty damn good. But then so if you go to the next jump up, like a three kilowatt burner, I think they make three. Uh but just but look at it that way.
Like the most you're gonna suck out of a regular one ten is about one point five kilowatts. So above that you're looking at gravy. If you uh I I I haven't looked at the specs recently because I haven't bought one, but if they have like a two kilowatt or three kilowatt, you're probably looking at you know, mucho powered into the pan. And I I know they make wok burner units that are like four and five kilowatts, and those suckers are nuts. They cause they c they're nuts.
They're insane. Well. Alright, cool. Uh well, let us uh let us know how it works out. If you have any more questions, give us a call back.
Okay, great. Thanks, Dave. Thank you. Uh, you guys want to go to the first break? Yes.
Coming right back with cooking issues. Cooking issues, and the song is called Fish Is Fish Is Vodka. This is Chris Young, co-author of Modernist Cuisine, and co-founder of Chef Steps.com. We've just launched our free short course on spherification, a modernist technique that can imbue a flavorful liquid with the appearance of being solid. A culinary illusion that's broken when the spheres burst with flavor as they're eaten.
Our free course offers helpful step by step demonstrations of reverse, frozen reverse, and direct spherification. We also explore the science behind spherification so that you can go beyond our recipes and create your own to surprise and delight your family and friends. And as always at Chef Steps, you get the support of a friendly community of experienced cooks and world-class chefs who will answer your questions. If you're interested in learning modernist cooking techniques, if you want more from the creative team behind modernist cuisine. And if, like us, you're a fan of Dave Arnold and Cooking Issues, then we think you'll find a lot you'll like.
Sign up now at ChefSteps.com. Well, you didn't. So, yeah, Jack? Yep. Well, I was just I was just excited because I'm also a fan of Dave Arnold and Cooking Issues.
I'm glad the guys at Chef Steps are too. You know who else is a fan of Dave Arnold and Cooking Issues? Everybody at Heritage Radio. Yeah. Like you said, we had our big first all staff all host meeting.
Kind of awesome to get everybody in the same room. Well, a lot of people, a lot of the founding hosts, the early hosts in the same room, same time. Um we just debuted the Summer of Food today, which is a student submission program where people are giving us travel logs and uh recordings and musings from their summer of food, which includes coverage on issues of farming, sustainability, and uh all sorts of things. So that's really fun. We're opening up a whole new post-production division of the network.
Lots and lots of new stuff, and I would highly, highly recommend every listener of cooking issues go to our website, click on evolutionaries, and there's an episode of Harold McGee where he tells his whole life story, really, in a in a very tightly edited, post-produced way. I think it's very fascinating for all fans of modernist cooking. When's that going up? It's up. It has debuted, so it's there for your listening pleasure archived, the evolutionary series on Heritage Radio Network.
It's right there on the homepage. And you have a bunch more that are coming out over the summer, yeah? Tons, yeah. Wiley as well. Nice.
Yeah, we edited his. Who knew he was such a uh competitor, sports guy? He likes he likes the sports. He does. He does.
He's damaged like his uh you know, some part of his arm, so he has to get it fixed. I think from like, you know, repetitive not from punching his cooks apparently, but from cooking. I think he damaged his uh I don't think it was in sports. I think it was in cooking he didn't. He just always wanted a sports injury and then you know, had to make it happen through cooking.
Full contact cooking? Yeah. Nice. McGee's story is really great too. Everyone should check it out.
Indian food. Grew up eating Indian food. Well, you know, McGee McGee, half uh half Indian, also McGee, sports guy, but not like you know, compet he's like a uh a runner, has been for a long time. Man runs all the all the damn time. Did you know that?
Did he mention that on the on the on the program? You have to listen and find out. Yeah, I'll tell you something. I hate running. No offense, but like I hate running.
Like it's I hate it. Like, you know how Stas, do you like running? No. You know how people like they say they get this endorphin rush from running that that they like it and then they like to keep running? I've never felt that in my life.
You guys? Anyone? Uh no way. No. Joe?
No, I used to I used to run track, but it was never fun. No, no, it's just not fun. Running around, not fun. Uh although uh uh Dax of of my kids booking Dax Not the Bar, just got picked for the track team. Nice, nice little mini track.
Okay. Rolf writes in uh dear Miss Hammer and Nails. So I guess I'm the nail getting hit on the head by I guess all of us are. There's nails, so Jack and Joe also getting hit on the head with the hammer. Uh Mustacha, by the way, just uh just during the commercial break, totally busted me because I was remembered last week I said that like I was gonna go to jail because we couldn't find out when my quartet was for my bicycle ticket?
I was like, I gave it to you, where the hell is it? And she's like, You didn't give it to me, you took it back, and we had a big argument, and I'll do my wallet. Guess what? It was there in my wallet. Right or wrong.
Right. So now she's gonna now she's gonna be uh she's gonna be moody all day as a result. All uh I just don't like how angry you get. How angry get what? Do I get angry?
Jack and Joe, do I get angry? I guess I do. But I don't it's not re it's like, you know, it's not serious anger, right? Cartoon anger, huh? Yeah, cartoon anger.
That's me. That's why no one takes me seriously. Okay, Rolf writes in, dear Miss Hammer and Nails. Following on Tom Fisher's questions about his kissing Coon Recon pressure cooker. I can add that mine, circa 2009, has always done the same thing.
Bought it while living in France, and the customer service there isn't such that it was worth suffering, uh suffering the follow-up a follow up on it that I'd have to do to get it fixed. So I just got used to it. For what it's worth, it's not the secondary slash higher pressure valve, which is the one on the side, uh, but the pressure indicator valve itself. I've taken it apart, cleaned it. It hissed on first use, so it wasn't food contamination.
Tried to adjust the tightness of the bolt in the bottom of the pressure indicator. Uh used to be I could quiet temporarily by turning it while it hissed. Uh uh, as though either the hole of the or the valve weren't quite round, but no longer. Hope that's useful in your data collecting. Rolf, it is useful actually.
And I've heard uh, you know, mine is circa a long, long time ago, but I heard that Coon Recon was having some uh issues with uh QC. That's quality control. Uh having some issues with uh QC for a while, but that they had it fixed. I mean, I'd like to know how many people have this problem with Coon Recon is because one of my favorite things about it is that it doesn't leak uh I mean it's still gonna leak a lot less than you know some of the other brands uh like uh Fagor that you know leak by design. Um but anyway, yeah, I do want that for uh for my research.
Okay. Uh Colin Gore. Haven't heard from Colin Gore in a while, huh? True. True.
Writes in about apples. Palm nerds, he calls us. I guess we got some good salutations to uh today, right? Dear palm nerds, my British girlfriend has been looking for Bramley apples in the United States. They're big tart baking apples that it seems can only reproduce by having a threesome super kinky triploid action.
Uh so the referring to the uh number of sets of chromosomes. So we are diploid, we have two sets of chromosomes. Uh you know, there's when you have more than that, it's called polyploidy, right? So, you know, more than and so the but the problem is is that uh usually it's an even number in order to in order for the things not to be sterile. So three sets, triploid means that usually if you're triploid, you're you know, three sets of chromosomes, you are uh sterile.
Anyway, uh, you know, not you person you, the fruit tree, not you, the person. Uh because I don't think that that doesn't work for us. Anyway, okay. Uh I recall Broaddale Farm is a massive fruit repository in the UK, but I think you mentioned uh the US la uh having a living library of apples as well. Uh where is that?
Uh and uh have you cooked with Bramleys? What makes them so interesting to the Brits? And what other weird fruit sex can you share? Okay. So the issue uh first of all, the um the place is in Geneva, New York.
It's how uh I don't forget how far it is, maybe like four or five hours from uh New York City, and it's the Geneva uh apple extension, it's an extension of Cornell, but the Apple repository is run by the United States government. It's like Noah's Ark for apples, and and they don't really like a lot of the people there don't really some of the people care about the actual apples, but the theory is is that if some new disease comes in, people don't think about it if you don't think about trees a lot, but a lot of our major trees over the past hundred years have been wiped out by introduced uh pathogens and new tree pathogens. So, you know, el Dutch Elm uh disease wiped out the majority of our elms, which were kind of the preeminent uh street tree. Um we had our chestnuts wiped out by chestnut blight. They were like the one of the primary uh you know trees of the eastern forest.
You know, they they were like from sheer number standpoint were one of the largest numbers, almost completely wiped out. Uh now only young saplings grow from the dead stumps. Uh we have uh butternut canker killing our butternut trees. Uh there's just like we have we have a fungus that infects uh beech trees, another important you know, U.S. tree.
So you get a thing called beech snap. We have uh introduced uh things that are killing off our our hemlocks, you know, our great conifers. So there's a we have a long uh well, I should say long, couple hundred year history of having some of our major and important uh tree species getting wiped out by uh introduced pathogens. So what they're worried about is that some pathogens gonna come in and attack all of our commercial cultivars and wipe them out. So what they do is they have thousands of varieties of different apples sitting there, and uh and you know, that way they can figure out which ones are resistant to whatever new pathogen comes in, and then they can create new apples from those.
That's why they keep them. And they still haven't successfully uh insured the keeping just the uh the clonal the the you can't keep apple seeds because apples don't uh grow true to seed, but they can keep they keep the wood frozen in liquid nitrogen, but um some people say that keeping the the wood like that so that they can make uh new grass of it frozen in liquid nitrogen isn't so good because uh it can cause uh sports, so it can change slightly from the parent tree. So people still say you have to grow all the trees. Anyway, that's why it's there. It's a fantastic place to visit.
Okay, now back to Bramleys. So here's the thing. Uh I have not cooked with Bramleys uh because I've never really done um uh I haven't had a kitchen in the UK and they don't really uh make you know doom so much over over there. Uh I mean the Brits, I think they they just they just like them a lot. Um the uh first you know, Bramley comes from the UK and uh was discovered around 1809.
It's called uh Bramley seedling, and what that means is that it was discovered as a seedling, it wasn't a sport or anything like that because what you used to do is you'd spray apple seeds around, like you know, 20 trees would come up, maybe one of them was good because apples, as I say, don't come true to seed. Okay, so the interesting thing about uh Bramley's triploid thing is that you need two other kinds of apple trees near it to uh have it work right. And here's why. Uh so triploid trees don't produce uh pollen. All right.
First of all, apple trees don't like to self-fertilize usually, which means you need at least two different uh apple trees near each other to get a good crop of apples, right? Triploid trees have two two two separate triple fruit things in general, right? Accord according to I don't think it keeps it current anymore, but I'm no one to talk. The fruitblog.blogspot.com. Uh triploid fruits tend to be larger, which is why a lot of people uh like them, but the trees tend to produce fewer flowers, right?
And they don't typically produce uh pollen. Now, remember the apple trees can't pollinate themselves. So you need normally you need two different kinds of apple trees, right? One one will pollinate the other. You don't really care what the seeds on the inside of the apples are because you're not going to grow from the seed anyway.
Anytime you're gonna reproduce the apple, you're gonna do it by grafting. Okay. Here's the thing. So you got these two apple trees. Now, uh the Bramleys is just sitting there doing nothing, doing squat.
So you have to wait for the other tree to pollinate it, right? Now here's the other thing. If you want that tree to also produce apples, you need a third tree out there to give pollen to that tree because the Bramleys is shooting blanks. Right? Okay.
Uh so that's that. So some other triploid trees out there, apples are Ashmade's kernel, which is my favorite uh kernel word for seed. My favorite all time, uh drink apple, John of Gold's, Mootsu Crispins, and Gravenstein. So there's a lot of triple H stuff out there. Uh now, the the other question is uh what is uh w so what other weird kind of fruit sex is there?
Wait, I got a caller? All right, so weird fruit sex after the call. Caller, you're on the air. Hello? Hello?
Oh, hey, I have a question um about doing chicken. Um so I end up doing a lot of catering and I pretty unhappy with just the way that chicken turns out in large quantities being able to reheat it. Right. Um for catering setup. And I was just wondering if you had kind of any ideas about how could how I I could do something that would be delicious and at the same time, you know, somewhat easy to pull off in the kind of catering situation.
Sure. How many how like how many people on average are we talking? Uh let's just say like 125. Okay, and what kind of uh you're talking like a main course chicken, so a hot? Yeah, main course hot.
And what kind of finishing stuff do you usually have with you? Um with with that, um well, I have a circulator, I have and a bunch of other stuff I can bring with me, but generally we just use the grill or sometimes we have uh ovens or like fryers or stuff like that. But preference is the grill. Right. Yeah.
I mean, so I mean the uh the so the the issue with chicken, right, specifically chicken and specifically main dish hot prep chicken is that um in order to crisp the skin out nicely, you need to cook the chicken for uh a while. I mean like chicken skin has to dry out and render and crisp. That's why other than deep frying, super fast techniques tend to produce a less than awesome uh surface on the exterior of the chicken, right? Uh for and the and the breast meat is just tends to get way overcooked. Right, right.
Now i if you could now so there I would I would circulate the chicken uh before I would bone it unless you need to serve it on the bone because if you circulate chicken uh with the bone on it you can tend to get a lot of pinking and red around it which doesn't go away and then catering that's like death right I mean that's the I've gone through the circulating the chicken before so many times and I mean I I'm not against deboning it but I mean I prefer the thighs and I would prefer not to debone thigh. You know you know what I mean? Like I mean maybe I could just debone the breast or something. Yeah I mean the the issue is especially on thighs with that little short bone so much red in that bone that the thigh the thighs really turn pink. If you anytime you do a low temp like to me the easiest way to get around the problem of uh of cooking a bunch of stuff off at the last minute and having is is to do low temp.
But low temp on thigh you're asking for a complete world of hurt if you don't depict it. You know, the other thing you could do is you could if you nitrate them, the whole thing will be pinked and it'll look cured. You know what I mean? And then people don't mind the pink so much. But I people freak out on chickens like for that.
People just don't want to see uh the red the red chicken. I mean, the advantage of boning, right? Uh the disadvantage obviously is the freaking work, right? Uh the advantage of the boning is you can then use the bone scraps to make stocks and gravies without having to get anything extra. People do like eating the thigh uh the thigh meat boneless.
I mean, what we used to do when we're doing large-scale chicken for hot prep is uh we would bone out the whole chicken and then roll it like in the skin. We would do the thigh thighs and uh and uh drums on the uh you know, you know, cut open, glued to the skin, and then breast meat in the center, rolled, and then we would poach those off at um, you know, uh in the circulator at like 63, 64. That cooks the breast meat in the middle and almost cooks the other meat all the way through. You can let it ride at like 57, pull it, and then throw it on the grill to crisp off the skin and take that thigh meat up a couple of extra degrees to cook it out. And that everyone always ends up liking that preparation because everyone gets a little bit of white, everyone gets a little bit of dark, and it's boneless, but it is a lot of work beforehand.
The good news is that it's beforehand, so it's not work on site. If you want if you want to cook the thighs boneless, you're gonna have to go to a much higher temperature or just cook it uh much faster. I haven't done a lot of experiments. My guess is that if you cooked it at 66 and you kept the layer fairly thin or sixty seven that you would be able to uh get rid of some of the pinking as long as you cooked it relatively quickly at those temperatures, uh like in a you know, in a in a combi with it going or or something like that. But yeah, I haven't done a lot I haven't had any success with bone in thighs done low temperature.
Um what is the is the issue when you do low temperature the red is that coming from I mean when you circulate it the bag is it is the marrow coming out of the bone or is it more of just the time after cooking for a long time it turns pink. I don't know both. It's both. It's both. So what happens is is when you suck a vacuum on a piece of chicken to put it in a bag, you know if you're not using zippies, uh you that vacuum will cause stuff to come out of the bone which it you know and all the vessels around there and that will put a lot of the pink in the meat around the bone and also uh the bone is going to act as an insulator.
I mean the same thing that makes it good in doing traditional cooking it insulates the meat so it doesn't overcook right in low temperature cooking because it's slower so it it kind of protects that and then you know the the redness the the how much of the red is denatured is dependent upon the rate of denaturation. So in sl in in cooking that takes longer period of time to heat through uh up to cooking temperatures you're gonna have more red than you would in a situation where those temperatures are achieved quickly. So it's kind of you're doubly shafted by it. Um I mean it can be done but like you're gonna want to either use ziploc bags or very low vacuums and you're gonna want to push the temperatures a little bit higher than you would otherwise want to push them. So you what you could do is you could do your breasts at 63 to 65.
I've never done this but then try to do the legs at like 67 to 68 and see whether or not they're still juicy up at those at those temperatures, and maybe those temperatures are high enough to wipe out the pink, even with the bones in. But if you suck a hard vacuum, you're never going to get rid of the pink. Yeah, yeah. I've run into that a couple of times now. Um that's helpful.
Yeah. I guess deep boning is probably my best option. It is a pain in the butt, but you do get lots of delicious gravy. Thank you. Alright, good luck.
Alright. Bye bye. Uh so back to weird uh weird fruit sex. So uh seedless fruits, by the way, are one of either two situations uh happen, right? Either uh you have a situation back where where you know the uh the tree is actually pollinated, but no seeds form.
I call that the shooting blanks method, right? That's called actually uh stenospermocarpi, uh right, and that's how seedless grapes work and things like that. The other one is this style is gonna like this one, parthenocarpi, which which means virgin fruit. Virgin fruit. And that's how things like bananas and certain figs work because they don't need to be pollinated for the fruit to form, which is weird, right?
So the like bananas back in the day, before they were like you know, awesome food things, have like lots of seeds in them, and they're they're fundamentally inedible until they found these ones that had parthenocarpi. And there are certain figs that are also uh parthenocarpic, they don't need any sort of pollination. But styles, you know how figs are regular like the old school figs, you know how they're done, right? Here's some weird fruit sex for you. Uh wasps go into there's a male fig tree and a female fig tree, right?
They're not on the same tree. And they uh male ones have the they're called capri figs, the male trees, and they have this thing called a sync a synchronia, I think. Sinconians, seconia, anyway. And male uh the wasps, not males, the wasps go into the fig, right? And they lay their eggs in the fig, right?
And then uh the wasps are born and they eat their way out of the fig, right? And they fly to a female tree, go into the fig, and try to get they can't get back out again, lay their eggs in, uh no, sorry, they die in there. When they die, they don't lay their eggs, I guess. They know they don't lay their eggs. They die in there, but they pollinate it while they do, and the fig dissolves the wasp on the inside so there's no wasp left.
That's kind of bizarre fruit sex, huh? You got another collar? Yes. Collar, you're on the air. More for more fruit sex after the call.
Hey, it's uh Brian in San Francisco. How's it going? Going all right, how you doing? Good. So I dehydrated my apricots, and I wanted to let you know that it is side by side with uh the ascorbic acid um on one tray of paper cups, and then I did the um uh potassium metabisulfate um for the other tray, and far and away it the potassium metabisulfite one.
Yeah, did was there any off-flavor from the sulfur? I would guess not, right? I did not taste any off-flavor, but in the bath I could definitely smell you know that rotten egg, uh sulfur sulfur smell. Right, and then it should it should volatilize anyway while it's uh dehydrating. But I should also say that the ascorbic acid that the apricots ended up tasting sour.
Really? Uh somewhat from from that ascorbic acid that was was was on the surface. Also, I should say that um I did get some browning on on the uh potassium metabisulfate. It's not foolproof. I used half a percent um by weight.
And um uh you know, I still got I still got some. So maybe I need to to to increase that. I mean, the one I was read did some reading that um they use a kind of um a smoke box where they smoke some kind of sulfur um uh dioxide, I guess it is, into the into the box um when they do it commercially which is how um uh how they make sure that uh there's no there's no browning at all. Right. Well some so yeah well because it hits everything.
Some people burn the sulfur uh some commercial people do use the dip, but they use a much heavier duty dip than than the sulfide people for home uh dehydration recommend. Uh but you know it's the same procedure they use to bleach uh palm fronds, uh you know, uh palm uh things for making Panama hats. They bleach them with uh sulfur, they burn sulfur underneath the uh underneath the palm leaves so that they can uh bleach them out for making uh Panama hats. So yeah, that's a that's an old school that's an old school technique. How is your how is your wife with the sulfur?
Any problems? She hasn't tried them yet. Uh but I I think it should be fine because she did she does okay with with most wine with wine. So um it it's just the asthma piece which was in question. Right.
Well, you know, have an inhaler nearby. She does she uh she uses an inhaler, yeah. Yeah, have an inhaler nearby. I mean, if she has most wines without a problem, I you know you're not gonna probably get a uh I mean reaction. Yeah.
Or at least not one that's uh life threatening. Yeah, uh but it was nice to do the side by side so now I now I have a uh a clearer sense of it. Cool. Tweet uh tweet a picture over at Cooking Issue so I can take a look at it if you if you can't. Yeah, yeah, I I'll I'll I'll try to do that with my with my dumb phone.
Uh but I have another question here which is um I I need a foolproof recipe for mayonnaise because I tried the immersion blinder technique that I found on the Sirius Heats website and I tried and it and it and I couldn't save it. And then I I um I tried and McEs. I looked in his uh keys to good cooking, he says add another yolk if it breaks, and I added that and I couldn't, and I and I tried it with a whisk also as well. So I I need some some advice on on um ratios and technique. Right.
Well did you hear the did you hear the episode where we uh the one with uh Chris Young on it where like my feeling is is that the main problem is when you're doing the series Eves technique of using the immersion blender without you know without any sort of premixing is the uh is the size of the vessel. So if you did you did you hear that one? So if you're making the I'll go back and listen to that. Yeah, so like the trick is okay, so I I'm I I've been contradicted by a couple of uh listeners who have you know written in and said that that they can make it normally in a large vessel like a quart container, but I was running some side by side tests using uh the immersion blender to make the mayonnaise in the immersion blender cup, which is roughly the same diameter as the bell of the immersion blender, and when you do that, you know, the egg yolk sinks to the bottom, it like s makes an emulsion and then builds very quickly and easily, right? Or and then I tried doing it in a quart container and it failed miserably.
Miserably. Miserably. And uh and I could and just like you said, I tried to fix it, miserable. Uh just awful. So when you're making it in large vessels, I mean like when I do it in large vessels, I take a whisk, I break the egg yolk, I hit it, I hit it with mustard vinegar, hit it, and then very, very slowly drizzle in the first bit of oil while I furiously mix with my hands until you see a stable emulsion forming.
Then you use a whisk? Yeah, I use a whisk. Yeah, but then but like but not anymore. Now I now you know I can I use for small quantities I do the immersion blender thing. Once you form an emulsion, then you can kind of go ape.
You know what I mean? Then it then all of a sudden nothing matters anymore. The hard part about mayonnaise is the very beginning part, getting that initial stable thing going. So my feeling is is that if you're doing the quart container situation, although some people say they do it in a core container it works, but if you're doing it in a core container uh at least with one egg yolk, uh I was unsuccessful because it mixed the egg yolk and the oil together before it had formed any kind of stable emulsion. Yeah, yeah and so then you're just hosed.
Now the the other thing is is that uh you know you want to you want to make roughly 80% oil 20% water uh base stuff. That's how it works. And McGee and I used to do uh you know as as part of uh the Curious Cook was his second book which you guys should all go on uh A B E or on Bookfinder or whatever and buy a copy of it. But you know he goes through there the experiment uh that you can actually make you know many quarts of mayonnaise out of one egg yolk. So we used to do that and we would do it with a whisk.
We would get one egg yolk we would we would hit it with a whisk and we would start uh making and then we would just make gallons of mayonnaise with the one with the one egg yolk right that but you have to keep adding water to it right because if you get too much oil in the emulsion will break and then you're shafted right so you want to try to stay but the other hand is if you don't add enough oil it's thin. So adding the oil up to around seventy around seventy five seventy to eighty percent, eighty percent right when you get there is when it gets that thick mayonnaise consistency. Anything less and it's going to be thin anything too much more and the mayonnaise is going to break. But you can always add some liquid back in, thin it down, and then build it back with more oil. Okay.
Do I need a refrigerate it? Because I don't understand how white Japanese mayonnaise is not ever in the fridge. Well, same with New Orleans mayonnaise. Uh, you know, they they guys in New Orleans keep their mayonnaise out uh all the time. The the issue usually when you're making mayonnaise you add acid to the uh egg yolk portion of it, and over time the very low water activity combined with the acid will kill whatever ails you in the mayonnaise, at least so they say.
But the issue the issue is that mayonnaise right out of the gate is not safe. The Japanese guys, coopy, they might uh actually also dope it with something to kill kill anything in it. But my impression from what I've read is that mayonnaise, properly made mayonnaise with an acidifier in it, gets safer over time, not less safe over time. So how long do you think it'll keep? Oh.
But I would make it in small quantities anyway, though. You know what I mean? Make it in small quantities anyway. Got it, got it, got it. Okay, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna try the your I'm gonna try this technique and make sure I get my ratios right.
Can I ask you another question? Is there time? Sure. Okay. Um my my I'm I make I make kefir and I make also a bread starter, but the problem with having them out all the time is that I gotta keep feeding them.
Um so I put it in the fridge to slow the um slow down the reactions or for for both of them. And I understand they're they're they're separate. But my question is, is there different kind of acid that that is released at that that temperature for the fermentation than it would be at at room temperature? Meaning I I think I read something that there's more more lactic acid at room temp and more um uh some kind of uh a a different kind of acid, maybe uh uh a scorbic or s or something. And so I'm wondering if if that's in gonna that's a consideration.
Or I need to bring it to room temp first before when I use it and just kind of store it uh when I'm not using it in the fridge, uh thoughts. Right. Well here's the deal. So uh anytime you change the either what uh something is growing on, what the starter medium is, or any time you change the growing conditions, meaning the temperature at which it's stored, or I guess even really the humidity at which it's stored, you're gonna shift which bacteria and which yeasts are growing properly in that starter, right? So if you look at any sort of uh actual fermentation, it's not one specific thing that is growing over the length of the fermentation.
Different organisms take over at different stages depending on what the pH is and depending on what the temperature is, etcetera, etc., depending on how much oxygen is dissolved. So uh the the trick is is if you want a consistent starter, you just have to do everything consistently. So yes, storing it in the fridge will change the culture, right? Uh somewhat, but when you use it, as long as you use it the same way every time and store it the same way every time, eventually you'll achieve some sort of consistency. You hope.
Another thing you can do if you want to store it, and it also changes the consistency, is a lot of people store their starters uh very much more stiff than you would ordinarily uh form a starter, and that slows down all the uh rates of reaction. It's another thing people do. They just dope it with more with more salads, more flour. Okay, got it. Alright, thanks so much.
Have a good week. You too. Alright, now on our way out, I didn't get to talk about salt risen bread this time or hickory nuts. We'll get that to that next time, I hope. But one last uh fruit sex.
My favorite fruit sex of all is vanilla. So vanilla, vanilla, the bean, the orchid, right? Vanilla is from Mexico, and in Mexico it's pollinated uh by a special bee that only grows in Mexico. And when they tried to take vanilla out of the Mexico, they could not get it to reliably produce because it will not pollinate itself. It turns out that vanilla orchids have a chastity belt on them.
And vanilla orchid, it's called the rustellum. And the deal is that vanilla orchids don't want to pollinate themselves. They want to prevent self-pollination because they don't like vanilla orchids don't appreciate incest, right? Now, uh, so no one could figure out what the hell was going on, no one could get vanilla to produce. On the island of I guess in French it's raining, but it's reunion in the US language here, right?
Which is off the coast of Madagascar, in 1841, a slave named Edmund Albius figured out how to how to well what's what's a polite word to say it, how to sex up the orchid by removing by by taking the orchid, flipping open the chastity belt, and taking it with a little blade of grass and taking his thumb and rubbing the male private parts and the female private parts with his finger, and force ancestrally pot pollinate the vanilla beans. And single-handedly, this slave uh invented the uh vanilla trade the coming out of Madagascar, coming out of reunion, single-handedly. Now, he was a slave, so he got almost no credit at all, right? They they uh outlawed slavery uh soon thereafter in the late 1840s, France did, right? And he just kind of was like left defend for himself, no money, no nothing.
And he actually got sent, he stole some jewelry because he needed it. He was sent to ten years in prison. This guy literally was the foundation of this of what was one of the biggest industries over there. They finally let him out, the Glenn of Cremacy, because they're like, Yeah, I guess you did, you know, you did give us all our livelihood. So they let him out, but he died in poverty in 1880.
So it turns out that uh sexing sexing an orchid doesn't necessarily lead to wealth and fame, cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on heritageradio network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org.
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