Today's program has been brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit Heritage Foods USA.com. You are listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwick Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit Heritage Radio Network.org for thousands more. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from a Burner's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 or 1, something like that. Hey Stas, how are you doing? I'm doing alright. Joined as usual with Nastasha the Hammer Lopez and the guys in the engineering booth. How you guys doing over there?
Just just Jack today. Just Jack. Old school. Old school. You know, you know, no offense to anyone else, but you know.
I like just Jack. Feels good to have the just Jack. Thanks, guys. Yeah, Jack Jack's the man. Jack Insley, aka the man.
You got anything uh good going on the Heritage Radio Networks that we need to know about? New website launch. Yeah, when is that gonna happen? It's up. It's it when did it go up?
Uh we had a little soft launch happen last week and it's up now. Uh we also have our own kind of like storefront in the iTunes store now. So you can see Heritage Radio Network has its own kind of channel. And right now on the front page, they're featuring our Alice Waters Evolutionaries, kind of Alice's life story, is on the front page of the iTunes Podcast Store. Oh, nice.
Now that's fun. Let me ask you a question. Do we sell anything other than us? Nope. No, all right.
That's why you should donate. Yes. Yes. Uh all right. Well, that's good news.
I'm gonna go check that out. And we did you already tell these guys like like like a little blurb on what they're gonna get out of the new website, what it's gonna do that they couldn't get before from the heritage radio netw department of in-house produced content. So we've got six sort of categories pleasure, health, news, opinion, business, science, and technology. And we're both from the programs weekly and then just from scratch in the office putting together in-house content. So kind of transitioning to more news, more reporting, um, stuff like that.
It's really good stuff. Nice. Uh all right then. Well, uh, let's take some questions. Call in your questions to 718497-2128.
That's 784972128. And just so you guys know, I can't personally check my tweets during the uh show because I'm talking during the show. So if you have questions you want to tweet in, if you don't want to call in, tweet it to at Heritage Radio Network. Is that right, Jack? It's at heritage underscore radio.
Shows what the hell I know. Yeah. You know what? Close. How's it that I know nothing?
How long did it take me, Jack, to memorize our telephone numbers? Yeah, it's still a process. Took like a like a year and a half for me to memorize our telephone number. Well, whatever. So Devin Stone tweeted in uh at Cooking Issues, Trader Joe's sells most of their protein in vacuum bags, some clear, some black.
Are they low temperature safe? Devin, I wasn't able to find anything uh off the bat on the composition of the Trader Joe's uh bags, and I dreaded, but I will do during the next week, uh fighting my way up the corporate ladder to find a human being who knows what the hell's going on. But everyone knows what a pain in the butt it is to deal with corporations like that, right, Stas? But I will tell you something about Trader Joe's. Uh I you know, Stas, what are your feelings on Trader Joe's?
They're okay. They're well, what do you really think? I don't like their Hawaiian shirts. You don't like their Hawaiian shirts? Yeah.
Well, you know, I always kind of like I was fine with Trader Joe's. I had no problem with Trader Joe's uh until I found this out. You ready for this? Are you familiar with the Bread and Life? Uh Bread and Life is like uh they provide food for people that don't have it and they take donations.
They're they're here in Brooklyn, actually. Yeah, yeah, you know Bread Joe. Good friends of the station. Yeah, good friends of the station. Well, Jack, you might be interested to know this, and I'm not telling anyone to change their buying behavior based on this, but uh a lot of the big food purveyors uh around, like Whole Foods and whatnot, right?
They will give their uh like the day before their stuff is gonna expire, they'll they'll take it off the shelves and they'll give it to organizations like Bread and Life who will instantly cook with it so that they can get it out before the expiry date, right? And then they're not throwing away or wasting all this food, right? That makes sense, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah.
Trader Joe's doesn't because they think it's too much of a hassle. They specifically destroy the food, throw it out in dumpsters instead of giving it uh to Bread and Life because they think it's gonna be too much of a hassle. So that I know Yeah, so I know some of the the higher ups at Bread and Life uh you know have stopped buying at Trader Joe's, and uh, you know, my wife encourages me to stop buying a Trader Joe's. I haven't done enough research yet, but I mean I'm hoping this is just that's just like some sort of like corporate like brain uh w whatever you want to call it on the air, and that they maybe could change their policies. But if anyone who's listening knows anyone at Trader Joe's and wants to, I don't know, comment on that or have maybe figure out a way to change their policies, because literally they the Bread and Life people were told, it's just too much of a headache for us to give all this free food that we're gonna throw away to all the people who need it.
It's terrible. That sucks, right, Jack? See, now with our in-house kind of production, I'm I'm thinking we're gonna have to call Trader Joe's and get a comment, follow up on this. Yeah, because that that's that's crap, right? We'll report back to you.
That is crap. That's crap. I uh that that is what we here at the Heritage Radio Network like to refer to as a load of crap. Um, okay, caller, you're on the air. Hey, this is John Doe.
Hey, how you doing? I j I was gonna uh call out one of your tweets there that you uh let me see if let me find it here. There it is. Uh finally made fish sauce cured bacon, freaking delicious. I saw the picture, so uh uh tell us about it.
So um basically uh Piper gave me the um base brine and uh I just replaced the the salt with fish sauce and it was actually around um eight percent. So then um I just boosted it a bit to get to the twelve and a half and then just added brown sugar and water uh to the appropriate percentages to to get the the brine. Then uh uh left it in the fridge, uh probably a little bit longer than I should have. So it was a little slightly oversalted, but I compensated by doing just like uh a couple stages of uh dilution and and just water. Um that's actually one of the questions I call I I've been calling you about, but uh so then uh, you know, tried it for a few days to build the pellicle and then just smoked it um for a couple hours with uh mesquite and it came out really awesome.
Um but the funny story is um when I had first cured it when I had disc when I had discovered that it was way too salty, I pretty much stunk out the whole house. Uh yeah uh people were pretty upset with me, but that was that was funny. It was still very good, but it was just really powerful and and um somewhat inconsumable, but I mean you could put it in stuff, but then I just did the dilution and that ended up working out. So actually my question is um is there some way to come up with like um a concentration such that you take care of you know the botulism, all the all the yeah, you know, all the bad things that come along with it without having to figure out the exact time, like basically leave it in there indefinitely uh without having to worry too much about you know it being under or over salted. Is there some sort of cross um basically a crossing between optimal flavor and um and handling all the the microbes that you don't want in there?
Well sure. I mean you I mean the the things like botulism you're gonna take care of with uh nitrites. Did you add nitrites to it? Yes, I did. Yeah, okay.
So I mean like and the nitrite concentrations are small enough. You know, you don't have to use uh were you using what were using a prague powder or were you using like a salt with nitrites in it? I was using uh what's uh what's referred to as pink salt. So I think it was salt with all the nitrates in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So in other words, you don't need to add enough uh uh s like that stuff's not gonna radically increase the saltiness of your of your product because you're not gonna be adding that much relative to the quantity of what would normally be regular white salt to it, right? Okay. So the you know, it's the pink salt that's gonna take care of the the beasties that you're really worried about, like you know, the uh the ones that are that uh will grow perhaps if you were gonna cold smoke or hold it, right? So you're you know, so like th that's gonna take care of that stuff. And you said you added extra salt to the fish sauce, right?
Yeah, it was an eight percent, so I brought it up to twelve and a half, which is I believe to be the uh the the basic uh brine for a bacon. Yeah, well I mean you can do various different brine concentrations. I'd have to look up exactly kind of what the the minimums are, but you're not holding it for a long time. You know what I mean? Right.
Uh so is I mean if the nitrite levels are are high enough to inhibit things like botulism and to get a good pink cure, which I saw the picture, sucker's pink, right? Yeah, yeah. So I mean like that's gonna take care of of of a lot of a lot of those problems. Another thing, um you're saying that the it was unbearable the salt or the aroma. Have you tried did you try precooking the fish sauce a little bit to blast off some of the volatiles?
Um well what I had done was I just Yeah so what I had done was I I took it's you know once it came out of the brine I just took it out immediately to cook it just to taste how how much salt penetration was in it. So I think I had some excess it was still pretty wet. Right. So that that's why a lot of you know it it was pretty stinky so no I mean did you did you cook the did you like boil the fish sauce a little bit before you used it as a brine. Oh no I didn't I I just did it straight.
Right that might mellow it a little bit um in terms of how it smells after it comes out. Uh I have never done any side by sides but it's always been my mental perception when I that heated fish sauce tastes very different or smells very different from unheated fish sauce. But that could just be because once it fills up the kitchen and it's combining with the ingredients that it just smells totally different once it's combined. I don't know. But you know it's always been my feeling that like something's volatilizing off of the fish sauce that kind of rounds it out and makes it um less offensive to the people around who might not love fish sauce as much as we do.
That's a fair point. Yeah I would consider that yeah I mean it might be it might be hard to love fish sauce as much as I do uh I mean you know and be you know from the east coast of America because that stuff is just straight up delicious. What brand of fish sauce did you use? Um I forget what brand it was but I I found a I found a brand that um didn't have any of the uh uh the fake hydrogenated vegetable proteins. Yeah, I I can I can follow you I can uh shoot you a picture of it.
I forget exactly which brand it was. I think it was the one with the baby on the front. Oh yeah, I forgot the name of that one. I've done a I did once uh like years ago, like four years ago or something, I did a side by side of a lot of the ones that were available in kind of the local markets around uh lower Manhattan where I live. And uh I mean as anyone who knows listen to me I've there's a lot of Japanese fish sauce out there that I love and there's one that's not really available here that's made with uh ishiri and there's a bunch of different ishiri's uh and one of them is called uh one of them's from squid solely from squid guts and that sucker is amazing because it's extremely meaty and that's the one that I think tastes as close to uh Sally Granger who's the um she's the fish the Garam Roman fish sauce expert and she's done a lot of recreations of uh recipes in large tanks as part of her PhD thesis uh on fish sauce and she's done a lot of work with a peachist and she and her husband did a translation slash adaptation of a pecious for uh you know I don't know maybe seven eight years ago that is I think the best one that's available in terms of uh historical accuracy of cooking because it starts from the it starts from the uh the premise that uh they actually meant what they said when they were writing as opposed to some of the earlier like the Dover publication who's I forget who's the translator on that just you know kind of plays fast and loose with it's assuming that we moderns know better about cooking than they did back then when it's always better to assume that someone who's writing about something is writing about it well you know but uh anywho so I tasted her fish sauce uh a number of years ago that was uh the garum sociarum which was made from uh mackerel guts in her case and aged for I think two or three years.
And that was very close to this one Japanese ishiri and the difference between it and normal fish sauce is it had much more of a kind of canned meat, hammy, bacon-y flavor than um than your standard fish sauces. But of the standard fish sauces, I mean the ones that a lot of people like, like for instance, like the three crabs or whatever it is, is like super doped with uh with uh you know isolates, protein isolates. Um the one that my favorite uh is uh Tarose, which isn't the one with the baby on the front, but that of the commercially easy ones to get, I like that one. I believe Tarose is out of Thailand, but I'm not sure. I never know.
You know, ever every every everyone from uh you know from that area of the world argues about who's got the best fish sauce, you know. That of course when are you gonna do? Uh yeah, so I wouldn't I mean like we I can look it up, but I wouldn't worry about like uh it being unsafe with having just the eight percent on a on a on a brine like that. Uh and then you know, then you'll get you know relatively more fish sauce flavor versus salt flavoring, which might be good. And try I would just do a side by side where you just uh uh boil a small sample of fish sauce and then taste it versus the raw just side by side after they cool to see what happens.
Okay. Um just one more quick question. On the you know how I did that ice cream cone with the microwave cake? Yes, also on my tweet, in case you guys ever follow my tweets. Um so the um the one question I had was we were trying to just uh draw patterns on a plate or be able to build you know little structures to be able to put other dessert things next to it.
Um and I was wondering if some sort of holly hydrocolloid or some sort of thickener that could add to it that would still allow the the uh the boxing effect of microwaving um but hold more structure. Is there uh is is there a lot of dairy in the cake? Um no, it's actually just um I think it ends up being half a stick of butter, four tablespoons of butter. Right. Um it's mostly uh it's mostly egg and then um uh egg white powder.
If you prehydrate methylcellulose uh from the either A or S G series, a fairly viscous one, if you prehydrate that in water to a fairly high degree, so it's kind of pasty, and then fold that into the mix, that will um that will gelatinize after so what but you you need to pre-foam that, right? So you pre-foam that uh, and then if you have egg white or Xanthan or something in there that's holding the structure, um see the the issue with with these is with these things is is that with cakes, uh there is you need to have structure beforehand, right? And that's what holds the bubbles as they grow, and then you need to have structure uh you need to have structure afterwards, which is the starch that sets. So uh, you know, years and years ago I was working with uh Johnny Azzini, and one of the things we did for a uh demonstration we were working on was a no-protein um, you know, cake, uh like angel food cake style, but without that kind of bite of egg protein, and we worked it out with um methylcellulose, and we would foam with an ISI cancer, EC canister into molds. We would foam uh a cake batter mix that had as a portion of it hydrated methylcellulose.
The issue, and it worked, because the methyl cellulose, it was already foamed, the methylcellulose would gel as it heated. It gelled, it held the structure in the same way that a protein will hold the structure in a cake, uh, and then uh after it was cooked, the starch took over. Problem is is that it has bad interactions with dairy. Uh, you know, like methylcellulose doesn't necessarily um react well or work well in uh high dairy applications. Okay.
I'll give it a go and let you know how it works out. Cool. Thanks a lot. And there we go. Thanks so much.
Alright, talk to you soon. We got a tweet pink salt for bacon? Yeah, you don't use pink salt for bacon? That was a question mark? That's a question mark, yeah.
Yeah. No? I mean, is someone that like eat like I okay, look. If you go to if you go to what's it called, if you go, you know, pink salt, by the way, for those who don't know, is that what they do is is they mix there's two different kinds of pink salt. Ones that have uh nitrites in them, which are the ones that we normally use, and ones that have nitrates.
You only want to use nitrates for uh long cured things like uh country hams and whatnot, because nitrates break down uh over time into nitrites. Uh and so in a short cured thing like bacon, you're only supposed to use nitrites. And uh nitrites, I mean let and look look, this is all the top of my head, so it could be that like a huge portion of my brain was erased somehow and that like my data is totally wrong, which someone please tweet and tell me. But uh, you know, the when people like for instance, let's say you go to Whole Foods and you buy what's called uncured bacon, they should put giant ass quotes around giant quotes, I mean, around that, because what happens is is they use uh foodstuffs like celery that are very, very high in nitrites, and then they just uh purify, I guess remove the flavor and gr you know greatly purify uh concentrate the amount of nitrites that are in the celery itself, right, such that that is strong enough to cure the uh bacon. Bacon that is actually uncured looks like roast pork, right?
And tastes like salted roast pork, which is not bad. Any bacon, you know what I mean? And I'm pretty sure that they add the pink color to the salts just so that you don't accidentally use it as salt. And I'm virtually certain, I would say 99.99% certain that uh, and I always forget they're called pre uh prague powders or insecure powders. I never remember whether it's number one or number two.
I just can't remember because I just I choose not to. They uh they color it uh pink. Now, if you get nitrites in the form of tender quick, Morton's tender quick, that is NACL, regular salt mixed with uh sodium nitrite in in a dosage that's meant to be used straight, and that sucker is not pink. So if you're using uh tender quick or what's called you know, that kind of a curing salt on a bacon, then uh which is you know it can be recommended because there's no possibility really of error with it. But uh anyway, so someone tweet on in and tell me that you know my brain was erased because there's always a good chance.
Uh alrighty. Uh should we take a break? No, keep it. Keep going? All right, Stas says keep going, so I'll keep going.
Uh Christian Spinelo at Eat the Pig uh tweeted in. Listened uh to a back show where you talked about octopus and was curious if there is an anesthesia uh shtep. Anesthesia step. Why is that so hard? Is that a tongue you try it?
Anesthesia step. Yeah, uh Stas is good at that stuff because yeah, anyway. Uh or equim step for the Piper, by the way. Pipe Get Piper drunk. Not difficult.
Says that says that uh tongue twisters are like he he hates tongue twisters, he won't say it. The poor man's uh pun. But to me, they're unrelated. Yeah. Like to the tongue twister is unrelated to a pun.
I don't like who the hell knows what he was talking about, right? He was in the car, so he wasn't drunk. Well, yeah, well, well, who knows? Love you, Piper. Uh I'm sure he's listening, and now I'm gonna have to put up with that all day.
He's he's never never listens except for today, he's gonna listen just so that he can hear that and then give me give me crap for being the bad person that I am, right? Give you pink salt. Oh, wow. Okay. So uh that is a very interesting uh question, uh, Christian, and one that I can't believe that we haven't thought about before.
And part of the issue is that uh I've never purchased a live uh octopus at a at a market. Have either either of you guys ever had that live tiny octopus on a chopstick. It's not really I don't really want it's not that I wouldn't eat it if someone handed it to me. It's just not in my thing. You know what I mean?
But uh the reason why uh it's super interesting is that you know, as I've said, you know, many times, cephalopods, um, you know, octopus uh and some squid in particular, but really octopus, are kind of the geniuses of the invertebrate world. They're extremely smart, but they they're they're very bizarre in that they their brains don't function the same way ours do. They're not put together the same way. Now, their uh neuron the you know, the neuron transmission works the same way because you know, nerves had already developed by that time, and so they function in similar pathways, but their nervous system and their way of cognition, however you want to put it, right? And and I think that the you know, I think we're we're all past this uh idea that um animals are somehow just machines that can be uh, you know, that you know have no sort of uh inner inner inner life or workings at all.
I think we're you know we're kind of past that as a as a society. Don't you think so? I mean, very few people think that anymore. Uh I think, you know, there's a bunch of hardcore uh scientists who kind of believe that, but it's it's almost the equivalent of solipsism on an individual basis to believe that we are the only animals that have some sort of inner life. It just doesn't really make any sense.
But you know, the question is, you know, does a clam really think about a lot? Is there an inner life to a clam? I don't think so. But the closely related octopus, I mean, it can do some pretty complicated and amazing things and can learn some pretty complicated and amazing things. So I think it would be a little disingenuous to think that uh an octopus doesn't have some sort of inner life going on, whether or not they're they're aware of their own existence or not, whether, you know, that that's unclear.
But uh it is very interesting to think about what anesthesia and particularly what ikojime uh might do to them. Now, ikojime is is is a you know a set of Japanese fish killing techniques, but in the larger sense, you know, uh we're not referring to any particular traditional or even newer Japanese killing technique when we're talking about this subject. We're talking about the um purposeful quick killing of an animal, in this case fish, because ikajime means you know fish killing, uh, in a in a way that increases their quality. And typically, when you think about fish, and and d I don't want to get stuck into arguments of, you know, hey, what is the fish actually feeling? The question is, is do things that seem like less stressful ways of killing the animal, right, from just from an anthropomorphic thing, let's not to even talk about being rigorous, do things that seem like they would make sense to reduce the stress of slaughter, like anesthesia, like taking the brain out right away.
Uh muscle stress in a sense, like destroying the spinal cord so that uh there's no more impulses coming from the spinal cord to the muscles to uh use up the ATP to cause rigor, which is why you want to destroy the spinal cord in some strong swimming fish like bass and tuna. So the question is is things like that that makes sense from a human perspective as reducing stress, do they have an effect in the taste? Now uh you don't even have to think about what's going on in the inner mind of the fish because you have a much more uh verifiable result. Things that look like they cause less stress cause the uh animal to taste better when you eat it. So there is there is an effect.
So it's like humane, whatever that means, killing techniques somehow align in this case, and hopefully in as many cases as we can see, align with uh best practices from a food preparation standpoint. Now, in an octopus, I came across a site looking for it here, uh W W Nietzsche Nietzsche Refresh dot co.jp. Uh and they do octopus and they say some interesting stuff. They say their octop their octopi, but they say octopuses when they uh when they uh translate it, are caught one at a time using pot traps. It's said that only strong, healthy octopuses enter the pot traps uh while the shallow waters are still abundantly full with prey.
This enables us to capture strong, firm limbed octopuses of the highest quality. Unlike the trawling method, this harvest method does not disturb the harvesting waters, and it also prevents over harvesting, making making it much better for the environment and for resource conservation. That's really interesting, just on a loan on that standpoint, because the idea that that you want to catch a good strong octopus and they and they those are the ones that go into pot traps, it kind of makes sense because you know they like to hide, right? So I mean I don't really know what an octopus pot trap looks like, but they might go in there thinking they're hiding and they get trapped, right? Whereas it's a well-known fact that as soon as a male octopus uh donates its sperm or whatever you want to call it to the female octopus, that it goes like it's called senility, it goes insane senescence, it goes crazy and just starts wandering around on the bottom of the ocean floor so that it can get picked apart by whatever uh prey you want.
So then you're getting kind of crappy, yeah. Or uh and on the flip side, as soon as the uh female lays its eggs, it stops eating and sits in the cave, like blowing water over the eggs to keep things from growing on it and guarding them against uh you know predators, and then as soon as the uh the babies hatch, she wanders out to get picked apart, eaten, and died in senescence. So you want a nice, good tasting octopus that hasn't gone into sedescence already, you gotta get one that still has its its self-preservation instincts intact. Um so uh Stas is looking something up she can talk about in a minute because I don't have time to look at the picture right now. Uh but she's gonna what do you got a picture of there?
This is a picture of a Japanese octopus pot trap. Yeah. With a calm hack happy octopus. And it does look a lot like a cave that an octopus might go, and it makes sense. And it literally says calm, happy octopus.
And the name of the trap is Taco Isubo. Yeah. Tako isubo. Anyway, so I thought that was really interesting. And then here's uh the other thing uh that they say is they say then that they practice Ikajime on it to kill it very quickly.
Now there's uh there's an article there uh that's available in the September, it's available September 2013 in the Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology called The Identification and Management of Pain, Suffering and Distress Encephalopods, including anesthesia, analgesia, uh analgesia, and uh humane killing. Uh and it's by Paul uh Andrews et al. Uh, and yes, it's fairly recent article. Uh and it's extremely uh interesting. So they it if for those of you that are interested, and it is an interesting subject, and we don't have time to go into it now, but they go over uh all of the markers that human beings would look in if in a supposedly non-anthropomorphic way, although it doesn't make sense to think of it really in a non-anthropomorphic way, of how you would judge whether or not something is experiencing pain to the degree that uh that animal should be protected in a research environment.
And then it goes on to figure uh to try and figure out uh whether or not we can prevent uh those sorts of pain. Uh and pain, remember, is different from nociception. This is getting complicated for a radio show, but nociception is the idea that there is a noxious stimulus and animals uh go away from it. So you take a cockroach and you put fire next to the cockroach, cockroach moves away from the fire. Are they experiencing pain?
I don't know. Or are they just responding to the heat uh in the way that uh a sensor, you know, uh uh a smoke detector sensor responds to smoke, right? So a response to what human would consider a noxious stimulus is nosyception. Pain is a consciousness state that has to do with whether or not the animal understands that something is going on and feels some sort of distress uh relative to that. So they go through a bunch of arguments about what that would mean, uh, and then they go into what is now the important part for us, which is uh, well, what regulates that.
So the two main uh two of the anesthetics that they use, one of which is clove oil, which is the one that we use when we're anesthetizing fish, and there's a lot of data on using clove oil uh and uh its derivatives, usinol and isousionol, to um to anesthetise fish, right? And I've done it many times. I've anesthetized lobsters, which are an entirely different set of you know, animals, crustacean with uh eusinol, and I believe that there is an observable difference, and therefore I don't have to worry about whether or not we're actually what's going on in the mind of a lobster because I feel that they taste different if they're anesthetized beforehand and if they're killed quickly. Um the question is does it work encephalopods? Uh answer, yes, it appears to work in cephalopods.
Uh but here's the interesting part: Magnesium chloride, which is a widely available salt, you can get it at the Dwayne Reed. Remember we got the magnesium chloride at the drain weed. Magnesium chloride added to uh the water that um uh invertebrates like mollusks and clams are living in, um, causes them to lose their uh their their muscle, it's a muscle relaxant, right? And so if you add the right amount of magnesium chloride uh to the solution, and here I have the numbers, it's approximately 0.5% uh weight, magnesium chloride, and volume, along with 1% ethanol, it will cause their muscles to completely relax. Now, what you don't know here, right?
What you can't know is whether or not that is actually shutting their brain down or whether it's just shutting down the ability of their muscles to work. But large amounts of magnesium chloride uh stop down, uh stop respiration and cause the animal to die. So a humane killing technique, uh ecogemic style, might be to put a small amount of clove oil along with a small amount of ethanol and magnesium chloride to slow their muscles down and to put them into a state of anesthesia, right? And then to add more magnesium chloride to stop their respiration, and then you know, do whatever cut your brain out. The other hum uh, you know, and here's the issue problem with octopi is that they don't have a central brain.
They have a large kind of brain near the eye, so there's midline dissection where you take out the entire eye area and get rid of the brain section. But they have a bunch of other quote unquote brain sections, uh, unlike us, right? But that's one of the humane things, or complete decapitation of the octopus, immediate decapitation octopus, another good ecogemia weight. But are the brains in other parts of the body, or it's all the head? No, I think it's like a separate, like most of the neurons in an octopus are in their tentacles, not most, but those I haven't done the research in a long time, but a huge amount of the of the neurons in the octopus are in in the tentacles because like the for instance, it's it's very complicated.
But the the point is that nobody really understands what it means to knock out the uh consciousness of an octopus because nobody understands what octopus consciousness is. And one of the fascinating things about researching cephalopods is that their entire method of perception of the world is different than ours. So that like proprioception, like how you know where your body is in space, works entirely differently in cephalopods than it does in mammals. And so it's kind of hard to evaluate uh what's going on. But it's an extremely interesting subject.
And anyone out there who has uh access to live octopi, I'd be curious to run some tests on taste. You know what I'm saying? Because that's the only thing I know I can test is how that sucker tastes on my how that smart, awesome thing tastes once it gets in my mouth. Anyway. Let's take a break.
Oh, we'll take a break. Come back with cooking issues. Every August for the past ten years, Heritage Foods USA has had the great honor of announcing the arrival of a new generation of Good Shepherd Ranch Heritage Turkeys and a new chapter in the history of an endangered species. You have to eat them to save them. While many farmers now use the term, Frank Greese and his team raised the truest example of the original heritage turkey.
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For more information, visit HeritageFoods USA.com. And welcome back to Cooking Issues. We've had some of those heritage turkeys. They were straight up delicious. I did I think I did a bionic turkey on Heritage Thing once.
That was, I think, maybe the best one we ever did. We did a Bionic Heritage Turkey. Yeah. And Sucker was awesome. You know, the Bionic Turkey is where we rip out the skeleton, replace it with a skeleton an aluminum tube skeleton with holes cut in it so that we can pump heated oil through, cook it from the inside out so that it cooks quickly, and then flash fry it afterwards to get a crispy skin, which is delicious.
Should we do that again this should we if we tell Jack uh if we tell uh rather Patrick that we're gonna do some sort of fancy thing, you think he'll hook us up, hook us up with a heritage turkey? Probably make that happen. Sweet. We don't we had a question come in too about um alternate proteins, like in the form of bugs, and if you think bugs will find their way on menus soon. Well, I mean, bugs have found their way on menus, you know, uh already.
I mean, you know, everyone, you know, in you know, Mexico, you got those fried grasshoppers, which I just don't think taste good. That's the thing. I mean, they're crunchy, but a lot of things are crunchy. You know what I'm saying? You've had those, right, Stas?
I don't think so. And I don't like them. Then there's the ant eggs, uh, you know, Eskimole, which I haven't had, but I think those are extremely, you know, high priced. There's witchety grubs, uh, and you know, some grubs are apparently delicious tasting. I mean, there's no there's no reason not to eat them, you know, other than the the gross factor.
Um, and that they're fairly small, right? So, I don't know. I don't think there's any reason why they shouldn't. I mean, like obviously there's a grossness factor that a lot of people have to get over, but you know, then you know who uh was big into eating bugs is uh Dana Goodyear. Didn't she write about that in her new Eating Everything, eating Bugs?
And then the uh what's it called? The um what's it called? Natural History Museum had that big bite bug eating uh thing a couple of years back. You know who else? I bet you Paul Adams from Popular Science has eaten himself a lot of bugs.
But you see, bet you that guy's eaten himself a lot of bugs. Um we have this in on the Twitter. Uh Dan D at Eat the Fat. Uh at Cooking Issues, Trader Joe's in STL, which is St. Louis, we think, donate, right?
Yeah. St. Louis. Uh donates a lot of food to our local at campus kitchens. Maybe it's just an in-store decision.
Well, that's good to know that it's not Trader Joe's nationwide, and it just means hey, New York Trader Joes, step on up and give some food to bread and life. What? There's a lot of Trader Joe's here. I think there's three now. Yeah, but I'm sure they're probably all like run like low.
Hey, Jack, you want to say something nice about the bread and life friends of our station? All the good work they do. Well, yeah, they they work with Heritage Foods also. We give them a lot of hams, I believe, and then come Thanksgiving we work with them as well. They've also they were one of the sponsors at the Bushwick Block Party, so they're like always around here.
Also Anthony Butler's a great guy. I don't know if you met him. Yeah, no, yeah, I have. Uh I know some, you know, my wife's done some architecture work for them, and so has uh, you know, another couple of friends of mine. They they just happen to be really kind of good people, you know?
Yeah, exactly. Uh so you know Trader Joe's, just you know, give them the stuff that you're about to throw away. Why throw it away? Why have it go to waste? There's plenty of people, there's plenty of people here in New York that could use the food.
Am I right, Jack? Absolutely. Okay. Uh here's a question out to you guys. Tom Fisher, you asked us about the eggnog.
Did it work? Did it thicken? It's been like a week or two, right, since we answered that question. The eggnog should be thick now. Let us know.
Tweet on in. We need to do our own eggnogs, yeah. Oh, dang, yeah. Well, before Thanksgiving, we have to set our eggnog. Piper's gonna do something crazy with it, though, right?
He can't help it. No, let's do it. Correctly. So you and I are gonna do it. We won't tell them until afterwards.
Or you can do his own, geez. He does love the side by side. Uh another follow-up. Drew uh Drew Bushorn wrote in on Tempe. He had tweeted in and asked us about whether or not you could use microbial transglutaminase, which by the way, transglutaminase is what we call meat glue, and it's the enzyme that bonds proteins together.
It brought binds a um glutamine residue to which is an amino acid to a lysine residue uh in a covet res it's such a gross word. Why would I say residue when I'm talking about food? Residue. Glycine, I mean uh uh lysine residue. Anyway, uh the so anyway, so it bonds these things together and uh it comes from microbes.
It's called microbial transglutaminase, and it usually has uh various helper proteins. The question is, could you glue tempe together with it? And apparently the answer, and you could see it because he responded uh uh to the Twitter is yes, it does. Uh it glues it together, and he he says, um uh what did he say here? Thanks for putting together uh good program.
Long live the hammer. Fan of the hammer. Nice. There's gotta be one fan of the hammer. Oh I have a couple of things.
I know you do. Oh, come on, please. Everyone, everyone loves the hammer. Come on, please. Uh uh a few days back I tweeted Dave about using his favorite enzyme uh transglutaminase to make steam tempest solid enough to char uh to charburger style.
Since I know he's not a big veggie, but he might be amused by the results. I thought I'd report back. The upper half uh he shows the part that's not uh TG'd and it's just all broken apart. And the bottom, Patty, with a 1% by mass transglutaminase, which is a good number for something like that. Uh, it tasted pretty uh it worked well and tasted pretty good with lettuce and mayo.
Well, everything tastes good with lettuce and mayo, right? Lettuce and mayo tastes good. Man, add a good tomato, and you got let you got all you're almost all the way to a bacon, lettuce, and tomato sandwich. And in fact, even if you're a vegetarian, I hate to say this, because baking lettuce and bacon lettuce tomato, and we're talking with Mark Ladner about this over the weekend because we did a an event at uh at the Discovery Center at the uh Thanksgiving farm, which we could talk about later. Center for discussion.
Sand for discovery, yeah. Uh Discovery Center or something else. That's like a science museum or something. Sandford Discovery. Uh you know me.
Anyway, so the point is that like that's kind of one of the great sandwiches. Mark thinks that the reason it's such a great sandwich is you can have it at any time of day, and it's good, but and I'm getting like I'm gonna get a lot of flack about this, but it's not as good a sandwich, but almost as good as as good a sandwich as just with just to toasted crappy white bread, mayo, an excellent tomato and lettuce. Yeah. I mean, right? Subbing bacon for the mayo, is everything?
No, you need mayo no matter what, Jack. Don't try to make a BLT without mayo. Do you eat BLTs without mayo, Jack? Is this a problem we're gonna have? No, no, no.
All right. All right. Um you can feel me swooling into. Yeah, headphones have been down. Bad bones, like you know, like the gloves come off and the hockey, boom, on the ice.
Anyway, uh okay. Uh so that was it. Uh just a good follow-up, thanks. And we like to hear uh follow-ups like that, right? We enjoy that stuff.
Um, we had a question in last week, but we forget who it came in from, right? I think it was a caller, asking about gluten-free ramen. Uh, and they specifically they want to know whether or not uh you could add consui, which is the uh kind of alkaline salts that are used to firm up uh alkaline noodles, uh, of which ramen is one of those. So you add uh to flour, you add uh consway, it raises the pH, makes it more alkaline, and raising the pH strengthens the gluten in it and causes the noodles to have more bite, more snap, more elasticity makes them firmer, right? Which is one of the reasons why uh people do alkaline noodles.
The other one is there's a specific alkaline taste that you like if you're accustomed to that. Um and we're accustomed to that uh in certain things, it's a slightly different alkaline taste, but for instance, in pretzels have an alkaline taste to them because they're boiled in alkaline water before they're um or dipped in alkaline uh bath before debaked, which is why they have that awesome color and that specific pretzel taste. Um back to this. So the other thing uh that the alkaline stuff does in uh in wheat flour is it turns it yellow, which is why you have those kind of bright yellow alkaline noodles, right? Now, with ramen, uh I think most of the time ramen is made in an alkaline noodle semi-alkaline noodle process, not a high high uh level of alkaline noodles from the data that I could get from you know the the internet's on the actual industrial production of ramen.
So, but the the classic ramen production is you make the noodle, probably with alkaline, uh with uh out of wheat flour, sometimes with the addition of potato starch or other very fast hydrating starches to allow the rehydration to take uh place much faster in the cup when you add the boiling you know water to it when you're making the ramen. You know, I haven't made ramen in so many years from the from the boy from the bags. Have you ever when was the last time you had one of those things? Three years ago. Oh no, you mean like that?
Yeah, like like you know, like the one that you actually buy the package, you break it open with the little flavor pack. Oh yeah, I know. Twenty years. Twenty? Dang.
I used to eat the hell out of those. Those are good and cheap. Anyway, so uh what happens is you uh make the noodles, they are steam. Oh, this is kind of cool. They have a conveyor belt, and the conveyor belt runs at two different speeds, right?
So it the a faster running conveyor belt loads onto a slower running conveyor belt, and that's how they get the wave in it. Oh yeah, by by the differential conveyor belts fed onto, and then they get the wave in it. When it's on after it goes on the slower conveyor belt that causes the wave, it goes through a steam tunnel. The steam tunnel cooks the starch out, right? It then goes, uh it's then cut, sometimes folded it.
It well, then they put it on another conveyor belt that stretches it out a little bit to separate the noodles after they've done that. This is all pretty cool, right? And then uh that's after the steam thing, and then it goes, it gets cut and sometimes folded into the full block. If you're gonna put it into a block form for like in packaging and plastic, then goes into a fryer. It fries to dehydrate it.
It's a fast dehydration step. It also, as opposed to regular dehydration, opens the pores in the noodles because it's boiling the water out. And that's why ramen uh rehydrates so quickly because it's got all these open pour structures from the frying. And that's also why you can eat ramen without cooking it, and it's got kind of a good crunchy texture because it's slightly it's slightly it's more porous than dried pasta. That's why it tastes better raw, raw-ish uh than uh pasta.
It's then further dehydrated a little more and packaged. That's how the ramen works. So then uh the question is uh so clearly adding consui to uh gluten-free uh um ramen isn't going to add the functional benefits of texture that you would get in um in wheat flour. However, there is a a new article out, I think it's brand new. I think it's like not even out until 2014.
I think it's one of those ones that's in pre-press right now, uh, in the uh journal Food Chemistry called Quality Improvement of Rice Noodle Restructured with Rice Protein Isolate and Transglutaminase by Yang Kim et al. And it's specifically looking at increasing the toothiness of rice noodles using transglutaminase. Uh and they talk specifically, I think, about uh ramen and how ramen might work. Okay. Um and so it what's interesting if you look this uh paper up is they have photos of uh scanning electron micrograph uh microscopy photos of uh what you know just plain rice looks like as a noodle, and like everyone knows is ever just made a rice noodle, it's like a bunch of babies.
It doesn't hold together well. There's no structure, there's no protein network uh like there would be in something that has gluten, which is why when you're making uh gluten-free things with rice, what you do is you cook off some of the rice first and then f uh and then add that cooked rice back to your raw rice flour because otherwise it has no structure, right? So they have that, then they have that just with transglutaminase added, and it doesn't join do that much joining back together because uh rice is fairly low in proteins that can be bonded uh bound together by transglutaminase. What they did, and then they said that look, one way to get around this is to add soy proteins and all these other things, but these guys did a study where they added rice protein back to it and transglutaminase, and you can see it, and the one on the the one that it has the added rice protein added back to it as well as transglutaminase added to bind it together, looks a lot more like a traditional dough structure than that. So maybe that's a way to increase in a gluten-free application the toothomeness of uh of it.
And you could probably also, if you can't get rice protein, you could probably do a little bit of cooked rice, soy protein, unless you're against it, that's hydrated along with the rice with transglutaminase and get more of a firm uh kind of snappy texture out of it. But go take a look at that uh article uh because you know it seems fairly interesting. The one the issue, only issue I have is that uh, you know, as as I've said, there were arguments, and I haven't had the time to do the research to really suss it out about whether or not adding transglutaminase to things that contain uh trace amounts of gluten, whether it makes that uh whether it makes the gluten fraction more reactive or less reactive uh for people who suffer from celiac. Uh and I've heard kind of arguments on both sides. However, I will say that this article is specifically addressing the issue of uh celiac.
And so, you know, they they're looking to make a gluten-free rice-only uh product that has good eating qualities, and they are interested in the ramen issues. So it's uh something to look at, and you know, it's current right now. That's two transglutaminates questions. Cool. Oh yeah, right.
Um next, we have in from uh you think it's pronounced Philippe? I think so. Philippe. Philippe Lament. It's kind of awesome to have a last name Lament.
I think it's a good name altogether. Philippe Lament. I bet you like I bet you like super happy though. If you haven't if you have a name like Lament, you you can't you can't like you can't be melancholy. You know what I mean?
Because you know, well, at least if it was Piper, you'd be like, I'm not living up to my name. I won't I won't. Anyway. Uh hello, Nastasha, Dave, Jack, and Joe. It's Philippe Lament writing.
Love your show. I have a question about soft serve ice cream. Some of my good friends acquired a soft serve machine, amazingly, and I told them I'd be glad to make a ton of ice cream base for them for a party. Now I know how to make ice cream that is churned regularly, but soft serve is different, more overrun, right? What do I do to make a baller soft serve base?
Okay, this is a great question. Um here's the deal. So I once uh was the uh proud owner of a soft serve ice cream machine. Also, kind of strangely. I was walking down the street one day.
This is you know, uh, fifth 15, 12, 15 years ago. I was walking down the street uh in uh the Garment district where I used to live, and just literally someone had thrown out on the side of the street a giant, like uh, you know, two flavors and a twist, Taylor soft serve ice cream machine on wheels. And I was like, look, someone threw out an ice cream machine, and my wife's like, so what? I'm like, so what? It's coming back to our house.
And it weighs like, because you know, yeah, whatever. So, but the sucker weighs 900 pounds, and it's on these crappy little casters. I know it weighs 900 pounds because I looked up the cut sheet later on the sucker. And so anyway, it was on this, you know, those crappy little casters that machines are on that aren't really meant to. And if you've been to the garment district, the the only roads that are worse are the ones in lower Manhattan down where we are now.
But like the garment district has these like all bent, all the roads are messed up from heavy trucks ears just rolling over them all the time, right? So I'm rolling this thing back a couple blocks of my uh, you know, my loft where I lived at the time, and we roll it in, and you know, I spend the next day and a half blowing all the roaches out of it and like you know, completely nuking it such that there was nothing left alive in it, you know, making sure that I wasn't bringing a family of rats with me or anything like this. Disassemble the machine, put it back together. Unfortunately, the uh unfortunately the one of the compressors was shot. In fact, two of the compressors were shot.
So instead of two flavors and a twist, I had kind of one flavor where the cylinder compressor worked, and the actual refrigeration compressor that uh uh thing that keeps the base going didn't work at all. So I had to like pack that with ice uh to get it to work. And this was the first time I'd ever made a huge quantity of ice cream base. Uh and so what I'll say is this when you're making and this applies to anything, if you have low temperature, you're gonna want to go ahead and because you're gonna make gallons. If you have an ice soft serve ice cream machine, like uh I remember I was like, crap, I can't even fire this sucker up reasonably unless I'm making like four gallons.
So I tried to make a four gallon or five gallon batch of ice cream base in my turkey frying pot, right? Now, if you've never done this before, it is very difficult to get an even temp and stupidly, because I'm a jerk, I tried to make uh I tried to make the whole batch at once just by whisking really hard. And the bottom of it, obviously, I got a little overheated. I didn't move it fast, and so all of a sudden I see bloop, I see all of these, I see that the coagulated overcooked egg float to the top. I'm like, no.
So I tried filtering it out, right? Also, if you've met me, you know that I was very late and like I needed the ice cream on the table, right? Because I had it was family dinner, I needed to have this stuff out. You know, Stasza's shaking her head because she knows how I am. So I was like, oh no.
I didn't have the time to cool it down just by putting it in the in the case. So, first of all, I filtered it out. Sucker tastes like scrambled eggs. This is way prior to Heston Blumenthal making scrambled egg ice cream famous. I could have been like, well, I'm just doing Heston Blumenthal's recipe.
I'm just I'm just trying out this. Yeah, look, what do you mean? I meant to do this. This is what Heston does all the time. You know, listen, if you're not looking for scrambled egg ice cream, scrambled ice egg ice cream, no good.
And I haven't had Heston's, I'm sure it's delicious. I don't want to talk about that. So, anyway, I needed to cool this base down super quick, right? That I had made, and I had messed up part of it by curdling part of it. It was at the last minute, too.
It's always at the last minute that you ruined the base, which is why it's so horrible. I thankfully hadn't burnt it because that would be the real joker move, whatever. So it's all strained out, and I have it in the in a bus tub because I had lost the original thing in the bottom of the soft serve machine, and I threw dry ice into it to try and cool it down faster. And of course, it tasted lightly carbonated when it came out of the soft serve because the soft serve hadn't frozen out all the water in it. And so I had this kind of carbonated scrambled egg ice cream.
It was the worst ice cream I've ever made in my entire life. I then threw an ice cream uh party afterwards, and quite smartly at the time, although it's a cop-out, and we'll talk about ways not to cop out. Uh, I drove up to the Bronx to the Mr. Softy uh warehouse where the actual trucks for Mr. Softy go, and I said, Look it.
I'm not look, I'm not trying to horn in on Mr. Softy's business. I have this ice cream machine, my wife's gonna make me throw it away in about a week and a half. I'm gonna have a big party. I'll pay whatever you want.
Just let me buy like five gallons of Mr. Softy mix. And they did. They let me buy it wasn't that much. I mean the guy was not used to it to like a normal non-Mr.
Softy guy showing up at the window where the Mr. Softy trucks show up to buy their stuff and like kind of making this plea. And I and I guess uh he obviously looked at me and was like, this person does is not a professional person in any sort of way. And so he sold me the stuff. Party was insane.
Party was nuts. We went through so much soft serve ice cream on that. But that said, um, I'm sure you want to make it the right way. The first thing to do, if you've never made huge batches before, is make them in smaller batches so that you don't do the stupid stuff that I've did. Uh second, if you have an immersion circulator, I would just make it an immersion circulator in um kind of two liter two liters at a time and just build it up two, three to four liters at a time in bags and build up that way because you're much less likely to uh have a problem.
It'll take you a little bit longer, but it's easier to chill and easier to keep um keep done. That said, if you want to know about uh the actual formulation of soft serve, the problem overrun in a soft serve ice cream machine isn't achieved the same way that you achieve overrun in regular ice cream with the with the churning thing. The way that soft serve literally injects air into the freezing cylinder at the same time that it injects the mixture in. So you change the overrun uh based on the orifice. If you look in the soft serve machine, uh there is a pump.
The pump uh draws the base out of the of the at least the one I had, out of the bottom of the unit and injects it into the chamber through what what looks like you know a a MIG welding tip, a little orifice, and you change that orifice size to change the overrun. And so unscrupulous people who are making soft serve, what they'll do is they'll put an orifice in there that increases the overrun to like a hundred percent or more, so that you're getting more than you know, as more air than you are ice cream based in the finished product. Uh you know, conversely, you can do a s like a super premium one by reducing the overrun by changing the orifice in it, which is what companies like Carvel do. So Carvel, you know, used to, and you know, it's not super premium anymore by you know modern standards, but you know, back in the 70s, they had a very low overrun ice cream that was still soft served. That's why Carvel cakes, once they're hardened, they're dense as hell, because it's actually a very dense ice cream, which is why I like Carvel.
Uh and I, you know, whatever their flavoring is, I got you, you know, I learned to love it when I was a kid, so I have no idea whether it's actually good or not. Um right? You but you didn't grow up with Carvel. Do you like it? Uh it's okay.
Yeah, but you didn't grow up with it. So it's yeah, I mean it's like it's like black and white cookies. If you didn't grow up with a black and white cookie, you don't love a black and white cookie. Jack, you grew up with black and white. So we had this conversation last week.
Yeah. Yeah, black and white. Yeah. Okay. So anyw, uh, so the point is the overrun is controlled by the uh the overrun is controlled by the orifice.
So you can go buy a new orifice and they're fairly inexpensive. So whatever make you have, you can easily go by the orifice to produce the overrun you want. The trick with uh soft serve machines is is that you have to adjust uh you have to remember that they're gonna be served warmer than a hard slightly warmer than a hard ice cream. So sugar levels need to be a little bit different. And what you need to guard against is over whipping because this thing sits there churning the entire time, even when you're not drawing.
Uh at least I believe that they always churn even when they're not drawing. So there's the issue that something might be in the cylinder much longer than it would be in a normal machine, and so you need to add uh emulsifiers to it to prevent over whipping in the cylinder as it goes. Uh now, a good place to go for this kind of information if you just Google uh soft serve guelf, which is where the university is that does a lot of the good dairy science stuff that's available on the web and Goff, G-U-E-L-P-H, which is where the professor's name, there's a huge PDF that you can look at on the uh on the internet that deals very specifically with all of the different um all the different things that go into soft serve, including um the fact that you want a higher uh milk fat uh milk fats um you know uh milk sorry non-milk fat solids, milk fat's non-solid, that's what it is, in uh in ice cream um because you're not gonna have lactose crystallization problems over time and it increases the body of it. They talk about the fat content uh and they actually give some proportions uh that you might want to use, and then you're gonna go out and get some good emulsifiers. I mean I'm sure egg yolks are good enough to emulsify them to prevent the overturning.
Uh and they talk about fat contents and everything. So just go on to that, and they actually talk about um uh changing the wetness or dryness perception of the ice cream based on whether you add certain salts, and this is something I never thought about before that I'm gonna do more research for the next time we do ice cream work, uh adding sodium citrate uh or different calcium to either make it wetter or drier the ice cream. I had no idea, so that's something to look into. You gotta love guelf. You gotta love guelf.
Uh all right, so that's it. And uh shout out to John Riper who says uh Stas, sorry to hear the apples didn't arrive in the best of shape, but glad you could still go to uh tasting with them. Hey John, the chocolates are delicious. He sent us chocolates. Uh well, you see, and I you know, like and then I was told that I was throwing John under the bus saying that you know that they didn't get it's not that they didn't come in the best of shape.
I see you know you want to know exactly what our tasting stuff is, and I I for one, really appreciated it, and I thank you, John. Cooking issues, thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org. You can find all of our archived programs on our website or as podcasts in the iTunes store by searching Heritage Radio Network. You can like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at Heritage underscore radio. You can email us questions at any time at info at heritage radio network.org.
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