Today's program is brought to you by Heritage Foods USA, the nation's largest distributor of heritage breed pigs and turkeys. For more information, visit HeritageFoods USA.com. I'm Michael Ameko from Food Talk. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network, broadcasting live from Bushwood Brooklyn. If you like this program, visit HeritageRadio Network.org for thousands more.
Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you. Precorded from the Heritage Radio Network and Roberta's Pizza Willa in Bushwick, bro uh uh uh uh uh you doing Stas. Joined as usual, Stas. How are you doing?
Good. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah? Nastasia, the hammer Lopez people.
You can't call in to speak to her while she's wearing it, but she is wearing for the first time this year at the radio show, her marvelous Christmas hat. I think we got a tweet out or something that that her hat, because the hat is like There's a photo online of you and I here with it, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Really? Yeah, there is, strangely.
Who did that? I don't know. Me? It is a it is a fantastic Christmas hat. It is completely unrelated to the phenomenon of the ugless ugly Christmas sweater, of which you also have several.
Yes. Yes. But this is actually a legit awesome Christmas hat. It turns her entire head into a festive Christmas tree. Yeah.
Totally covering the sourness that comes out of the mouth attached to the hat. Whoa, wow. Whoa. Wow. Oh, and Merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas joined in the booth with our good buddy, Jackie Molecules. What's up? Jack Inslee. How's it going? It's great.
I'm in a really, really, really good mood because the cooking issues listeners have gone like above and beyond with their donations to the network, and uh it it's awesome. Nice. It's so awesome. They really represented so well. There are too many of them for me to even shout out.
It's crazy. Um but just know that every time those come in, we're everybody in the team is like super, super stoked and and we can't thank you all enough. Awesome. Awesome. So uh I just came from a by the way, so we're recording this on Monday instead of on Tuesday, because uh Nastasia has to go up to Boston uh tomorrow.
To get a why why are you flying out of Boston? Don't get me started. Like you know, like I I thought you were going to Boston to go to Boston. No. Getting a flight.
From Boston? Yep. Let me guess, $50 cheaper. No, a lot cheaper. But how much cheaper?
Like $150 cheaper. How much is it costing you to get to Boston? It's $30 on the bus. So so I'm gonna do this math here. What's your time worth?
So $120. By the way, if you want if you want Nastasia to throw away four hours of her time in each direction. No, I fly back into New York. Oh, okay. Alright, alright, whatever.
I don't even want to get me started. Don't even start it. Uh so you'll enjoy this, Nastasia. So uh earlier today I had to do a series of videos for Vox for the Museum of Food and Drink. All right, it's part of our contractual obligation with Infinity.
Uh and you know, food science demos. No one asked me to just sit around and talk about I don't know, something. It's always like some sort of tech and sciencey stuff, right? So they said, hey, you know, yeah, let's, you know, we're gonna do liquid nitrogen. I'm like, really?
Really? Jack, you know what? I'm like, really? You know how many times I've done the liquid nitrogen demo, Jack? Yeah.
So many. Many. And uh so I figured I was gonna mix it up a little bit. Stas, you're gonna like this, you're gonna want to pay attention. You already heard you already heard?
Of course. Well, Peter ruins everything. He's supposed to come on the show, Peter from uh Kim from the Museum of Food and Drink. He's like, Oh, yeah, I'll come on the show. He's like, No, I'm busy, man.
Not busy. He sucks all of my time this morning. He's gonna suck all of my time this afternoon. He's too busy to come on the radio show with us. Instead, just calls and ruins the surprise for you.
But you folks here haven't heard it yet. So here's what it is. So I'm like, you know what? Liquid nitrogen, as we all know, is amazing, but it has three main safety issues. One, it can it's cold burns, right?
You could get cold burns from it, and that could either be from ingesting it, which you should never ever ever do, or from you know, getting it poured onto your pants or some other thing, right? Uh you know, you can get it on your hand, you know, because the leidenfrost effect, it'll just roll off, won't do anything, but you know, there's cold burns is there. Asphyxiation is a big one. Remember Mirvold almost killed himself in his car with liquid nitrogen, and so we have all these safety rules against asphyxiation. But the other one is Jack, any guesses?
You know this one? Nope. Explosions! Oh yeah. So you can do the explosion noise again.
So Yeah. Yeah. And in fact, years ago, and we always talk about it, there was a German cook who took liquid nitrogen in a sealed container home from the restaurant, and it exploded in his girlfriend's bathroom and like took off one of his legs, one of his hands, most of the other hand, put him in a coma, etc. etc. Because the pressure just keeps building and building and building, right?
But I've never actually done the demo. Because I've always wanted to do the demo, right? So I take, I swear to God, the name of this stuff. So I'm I'm like, I'm like, listen, we're gonna blow up, you know, we're we're not in front of a big audience. We're just we're gonna blow up uh a plastic bottle with liquid nitrogen to show how dangerous it is, right?
So I take this thing, it's called harmless water. You heard of this? Harmless water, it's some sort of one of these coconut waters. But it's in a non-carbonated bottle, right? So it shouldn't be a problem.
You know what I mean? So anyway, so I'm like, eh, meh. So I get, I'm like, I'll get a cambro, because cambros are made out of uh, you know, uh polycarbonate, they're strong, and that stuff's not supposed to shatter, it's supposed to bend because it's made out of polycarbonate. Okay. So, okay, I get a big uh cambro, I get this little harmless water, right?
And some liquid nitrogen, and you know, I have safety goggles and all this. So I pour the liquid nitrogen into the harmless water container, and I screw it and I quickly dump it quickly in into the cambro, and then I back off and go down, right? So that my eyes aren't over the top of the thing. And I was like, nothing happened. Like literally, nothing happened.
So I like tap the thing, nothing. Slosh it around, nothing, nothing. Finally, I swear, and then like it's it's nervous. Do you ever light fireworks in your kids' dollars? I never let them know.
Jack? No. Really? No. I feel like we've all been raised on crazy.
I they were around. I never let them. Okay, okay. So anyway, so anyway, if you light a firework and it doesn't go off, you're in a dangerous situation. Like that's what you do.
You don't want that. If you light a firework, you want it to go off. Because a dud, you have to go dispose of a dud, and it might not be a dud, it might come on and like shoot you in the eye or burn the whatever. You get me. So I'm in a fi I'm in a dud firework situation here, right?
We're talking like a minute and a half later, and all of a sudden, uh part of this is these harmless water bottles are A, obviously not harmless, and B much stronger than for instance, Fiji water bottles, which I know I can blow up with a measly like hundred and 110 PSI. Because I've done that. I've held a Fiji water bottle and exploded it while I was carbonating in it, like, you know, anyway. So all of a sudden, this bottle starts freaking growing, like growing and like starting to look more like a watermelon. And I'm like, eh.
And it was when it finally went, it shattered the can it first of all, the bottle like disintegrated like a balloon. The cambro freaking shattered and sent cambro pieces everywhere. And it was the loudest. It was like shooting off like like three or four shotguns all at the same time. Thank God they got it.
I was like, I was like, we're gonna run a test, but you're gonna film this because I might never do it again. Yeah. You know what I mean? And the video, it's horrifying, but so again, you do no one out there needs to try this. The video is horrifying, but kind of hilarious because what you see is you see me looking at it, trying to figure out what's going on, then you see the explosion, and then like a second later, I'm like, oh, and I fall over.
Like that would help. Anyways. So keep your eyes out for that video. I don't know if they're gonna actually put that section of it in there, but you know, you know how I like to do the I like to do the what not to do in a semi-controlled environment. Very important.
Very important. Although, Jack, do you know how many times? And I've said this before, and I've told people not to do this. You know how many times I've done demos where I'm like absolutely never do what I'm about to do, and then they leave out that part and just have me doing the bad thing. It's happened to me so many times.
Every time I do it, Nastashi sits there and she shakes her head back and forth. She's like, How many times is it gonna take before you learn? Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah.
It's because nothing really bad has happened. Well, I'm gonna edit an episode of this show, Dave, and just um things that you say not to do. But I'll take out the disclaimer, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dave's top ten tips for the year.
Look who's back. What do you mean? Oh, oh, uh, yeah, oh, it's a Satan's little uh Santa's little uh hipster. Santa's little hipster. The uh, you know, we we we uh for those of you just uh tuning in for the first time to our show, we enjoy poking fun at the friendly uh staff of Robert's uh as does everyone, right, Jack?
I mean it's all it's all love. It's all love. Um I have been really hurt. What do you mean? That's why my wife doesn't trust me anymore.
Yeah. No, I lit myself on fire. It's been a while since you really hurt yourself. It's been a while since I really damaged myself, yes. Yeah, if you unless you count slipping with the with the maul and shoving it through my toe or any of those other things.
But that didn't well, I wasn't cooking at the time. It's been a long time since I've entered in the kitchen. Yeah. Is that true? Didn't I slice myself open recently?
That was yeah. But I was cooking at home. That was when I was in the basement. I made my Christmas cookies yesterday. Yeah.
Yeah. Do you make Christmas cookies anymore, Sas? Or were you ruined that one time that we tried to make all those Christmas cookies for the trees? My parents do, I don't make any. Oh my god, what kind of Christmas cookies do your parents make?
Sugar. Just sugar? And fudge. Do you like fudge? Mm-hmm.
Really? Mm-hmm. For real. Mm-hmm. Do you actually enjoy eating fudge?
Jack, fudge? Yeah. Really? I do. Small doses.
There you go. Small doses. And they see you've actually hit a thing that I like it, like I can have small doses, but I would never be like, I'm gonna tuck into this giant block of fudge. Oh god, no. No.
You know what I mean? But I've seen people do it. Like I could eat an entire tray of brownies. Yes. But I only want like a little bit of fudge.
And if we had this conversation, what kind of brownies are you guys? Are you guys the dense brownie people or are you cake brownie people? Dense for me. Dance. Dance dance.
I like them both. I like them both. Noncommittal. But I nuts or no nuts. Um I like nuts in a brownie, but I would always choose not nuts.
Okay. Like I I I don't mind it. I don't mind the taste of it, but the problem is is that they can get a little soggy. And to me, a brownie should be almost uni textural. I don't really need textural variation in my brownie.
So like no chocolate chips. You know, a lot of brownies have like chocolate chips in them. Yeah, not mine. Unnecessary. Yeah, no.
No, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like chocolate chips. And I like brownies, but I don't need them in the same stitch. What about you, Saz? Yeah.
I can go either way. You know what? You know what else I'm not a huge fan. I like it fine, but I'm not a huge fan of it. I'm not a huge fan of the hyper like solid block of chocolate poured on top of the brownie thing.
Yeah. Or the frosting y stuff. What about fudge on top of a brownie? It's a lot. It's like it's a lot.
It's a lot, a lot. In other words, there's something about a brownie, even a dense brownie, that allows you to eat almost an unlimited amount of it. And I don't know what that is. You know what I mean? As opposed to like fudge, which fudge is self-limiting.
You're like, you eat a little bit, you're like, okay, I'm done now. That was good. Yep. Now I am done. So uh anyway, so that kind of leads me in.
So the cookies that I make, I'm always make three cookies. I make sugar cookies because the kids like to use the we use the gun, the spritz gun. Mm-hmm. You like those? No, I've never used one.
You know the secret? What? Right onto the aluminum pan. Because otherwise you'll pull up the parchment or whatever. Anyways.
Um and the dough has to be the right temperature. But yeah, they love the gun. They make they always make the same damn rosette, and then they try to make the Scotty dog. We have Scotty dogs, rosettes, Christmas trees, but the all the shapes always end up messed up. The rosettes, it doesn't really matter because they if they bleed, they bleed into circles, so who cares?
Anyways. Um I make those, I make the almonds. Remember the Rick Victorelli's that I make? I make those. I burnt out actually my nyxtomatic.
Like the motor came back on, but I was trying to grind all the almonds in my Nyx Domatica Nixtaball maker, and it was rocking, and then all of a sudden it stalled and went poof and smoke came out of the back of it. I was like, no! Cause how when's the next time I'm gonna go to Mexico? And I would give up my my corn grinder just because I was trying to be a bonehead and making almond cookies. That sounds like some stupid crap I would do, right?
It is, yeah. Yeah. Uh and then I make the I make these cookies that like theoretically they're not good, but they're like my favorite cookie, and everyone also seems to kind of like them. Is that is it these cookies that are like my great great grandma's recipe from like the 1800s? They're like a you know, like black and white cookies aren't really cookies, they're little cakes with icing.
These are like that, but they're chocolate and they're made with clabbered milk. And so you make a clabbered milk and you put this chocolate icing over the top called bonbons, but they're really dry, so you have to drink something with them, but you keep eating them and eating them and eating them. You know cookies like that? No. Do you like those Italian hyper dry like vanilla cookies with ice?
This is what my grandma makes, she's Sicilian, yeah. Well, love those, don't you? Lose, you just keep drinking and drinking like water with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you see, yet you still want more.
Yep. Weird. Weird. Anyway, that's what I did. Nice.
Oh. And I got back from China. We haven't talked about China. Oh, yeah. Centerfuge.
We have a lot of stuff to talk about. I know. That's why we don't need collars. I saw you said that Chinese takeout in China tastes like Chinese takeout here. Oh, yeah.
Well, also when I said that, I was quite disappointed because I was supposed to have gone to this like awesome uh Sichuan restaurant where this where the waiters know how to like they can do that mask trick where they change their their opera masks like back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And instead, the meeting ran late because it turns out it takes a long time to explain to people how to build a centrifuge. And so instead I got like this little thing of Chinese takeout, and I was like, I can't believe this. And then when I ate it, I was like, I can't, I cannot believe this. This tastes like I walked across the freaking street, you know, to like the local Chinese takeout and you know, got their, you know, local.
It was like it's crazy. It was comforting for me to hear though. Yeah? Yeah, I think so. All right.
Yeah. I mean, like, you know, um, I mean, I had a lot of good, I had a lot of good, good, good, interesting, interesting food on there. Like, I think I said also on the Twitter, like I had some really cool steamed bun varieties that you don't get over your um or that I have never had before. So I need to do some investigation on that. I'm thinking, I don't really have any time, but uh, you know, one of the things I'm interested in is uh starches.
So like being over there really made me think I need to up my starch game. So I want to like uh I'm gonna start categorizing there's a I I have a couple technical books now on starches I need to read to get a handle on it because you ever notice that people they say the same if you if you look up people's descriptions of different starches and what they're good for and what they're not good for, they're always extremely vague. Do you ever do that? You stu you probably do that. I hate starches.
What? I hate the sound it makes. Oh, oh, oh. But you love starches. You like noodles.
Oh, you mean like star, yeah. Yeah. So but anyways, but like the like most of the most of the you know, popular writing on using different varieties, for instance, like you know, you got you got your sweet potato, you got your your water chestnut, you got your caltrop, which is the other kind of water chestnut, which is a they're entirely different species. You got you there's a zillion different starches. You got your tapiocas, your potatoes, and but not even to mention your modern or modified starches.
So anyway, I want to go through that before I really get into the kind of like bun thing. I want to go through kind of a starch, a starch uh extravaganza. And there's actually uh there's an interesting book from 1919, I think, that has like these lunatics just took a pictures of like five hundred different starches. It's on the internet. Maybe I'll post a link to it so people can see like this like starch that that person didn't give a rat's behind about cooking.
Anyway, uh look forward to hearing more or don't to hearing more because remember you know at Clefs who writes in sometimes uh on the Twitter he's from Japan or lives in Japan. He came up with this interesting problem. You ready for it? I'm gonna try and tackle this probably not over the break I won't have time but he I think it was buckwheat either buckwheat or rye I can't remember wants to make something the texture of fresh mozzarella made out of that with the flavor the flavor of I forget whether it was rye or buckwheat texture of fresh mozzarella. And I was like you know what that sounds like it would be good.
You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And I think I know how to do it. It's like a mixture of like soy milk, cashew cheese, uh LBG kappa, and like I gotta figure out how to get the the the the flavor of the buckwheat without having too much of an additional starch. Anyway, I'm working on it.
Just pe just so you people know I'm working on it. Is there any way to set up like a like a like an open source like where like you're like this is the thing you have to do to include the information like I'm gonna come up with like standardized starch recipes to test out the different starch things and then you know uh uh do them and then I could I there's no way I could have other people I don't know I'm sure that exists. I don't know how to do it. I'm just terrible at communication with people that's a thing. What are you doing for Christmas does?
Going home for two days two days two days huh? Long way to go for two days. Out to out to LA well not really, Covina. Land of Goodburger. What about you, Senior molecules?
What are you doing for the holiday? I drive to Long Island for the night. Yeah. That's it. Alright all right, let's take some questions.
Uh hey, Dave, Nastasia, Jack, and the rest of the crew. It's just us today. It's just us, Alex, uh, from the Bay Area. Up near where you went to college there, Stas. Mm-hmm.
You have any love for the Bay Area? I hate the Bay Area. Alrighty. What do you really think about it? Merry Christmas, Bay Area, people.
Nastasia hates you. Uh I have a question regarding pressure cookers and induction cooktops. I had a Fayor duo earlier. Yes, yes, I'm aware that they don't make a great stock as I read from your cooking as great of a stock uh as I read in a cooking issues primer. But I was thinking of maybe getting a giant mason jar uh of sorts and sticking the bones and trapping all of that uh within the lid if that was a possible method of retaining more flavor.
Uh it is. Uh in fact, modernist cuisine does that um all the time. They were the first people I think to sh you know demonstrate that to me is the idea that if you don't have a sealed pressure cooker, you can just seal things inside of something into pressure cooker, and it's you know, same, same, same. Umfortunately, I also live in an apartment that has a rather terribly old electric stove. Uh I was wondering if buying a single separate induction top would be advisable since it may offer better controls.
And if so, are there any recommended brands? Uh yeah, they're awesome. I love them. I don't have any like kind of brands. Uh I have had some dye on me, but I think they just get better and better.
The main problem with induction cooktops, frankly, is uh the the inexpensive ones. I mean you could buy really expensive ones. How much was the one what did we end up selling ours for, Stas? 800, 900. Yeah, but that's a real one.
You know what I mean? Like uh like two twenty or whatever. It doesn't, you know, you need a separate uh the ones that go into one ten. The problem that people have with it, and it a lot depends on how old you are and how good your hearing is, because they make this horrible noise. Does the noise bother you, Stasi?
Yes, I hate it. Yeah. Jack, are you ever you know what I'm talking about? Nope. Yeah.
So like every inexpensive induction burner that I've ever used just goes. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And so, like, if you're like me, like an old fart that can't hear worth spit anyway, like it doesn't really matter. It doesn't bother me so much, but you know, Nastasia like like can't stand that.
It's like hearing an ice cube that's like on metal. Or no, remember the the uh dry ice on on the hotel pan? Yeah. Yes, that's horrible. Man, I used to love turning on the uh ultrasonic homogene uh homogenizer and watching everybody run.
And you know, there's gotta be some benefits to listen to too much loud music in your headphones for years, and it's I can I can be around things that are unpleasant constantly. I mean, look, I do it every day. Oh, boom. Nice. Uh uh if so, what are recommended brands?
My other question is in regards to the instant pot and all the other electric pressure cookers that were on sale recently from Black Friday. I don't know the instant pot, do you, Stas? No. Jack, have you heard of the Instant Pot? Nope.
Hmm. I don't know the instant pot. But I have used electric pressure cookers. In fact, I know the designer of the Cuisanart uh electric pressure cooker, and I think they are convenient and they're they're good and and you don't have to the one of the things you have to worry about, although it's not as big a deal with an induction uh um top, is just uh remembering to throttle the um throttle it down so it doesn't, you know, um doesn't s scorch or or over pressurize. Um my issue with the electrics, I think they're very convenient.
I'm you know, mine blew up eventually. Not not exploded, d died. That's more, you know, didn't explode. Because I've had that happen too, as Stuzz remembers. That was around Christmas time when we blew up that pressure cooker, right?
Uh huh. And we had a stock fountain. Yeah. Awesome. Good times.
Um so the problem is they are a slightly lower pressure, so you'll need to recalibrate your recipes, and I really prefer to cook at 15 Psi uh then I think I forget what they those a lot of those run, they run like seven. I don't know why they run lower. I think part of the problem is is that they're not actually judging pressure. They're actually controlling the temperature and they're controlling the temperature a little bit higher, and I think that's really the reason. And that's why I was able to take uh my electric pressure cooker and fool it into getting a higher pressure by just altering the sensor so that it was wrong in the temperature and it jacked it up to the normal pressures that you want to use.
Now again, that voids any warranty, but it it it does work. The other problem with the electric pressure cookers, frankly, is is that a lot of times, like uh and uh, you know, I use Coon Recon, uh, but it was a gift, I didn't have to pay for it. And uh it's a good pot though. So the good thing about a good pressure cooker pot that's not like uh an electric kettle is that usually you can get the pot itself up to really high temperatures really quickly over a normal sort of a stove, and so it allows you to like, you know, um it allows you to saute the onions first, or if you're gonna do a pre-sear or like brown the meat beforehand or something like this, that's a huge advantage, whereas I always found that with my electric pressure cooker, I would have to brown the meat or do the onions somewhere else because it was just taking for freaking ever. And who wants to sit around for whole point of the pressure cooker a lot, not always, but a lot of the time the point of a pressure cooker is I can have something done in like 15, 20 minutes.
And so who wants to wait 15 or 20 minutes for the onions to freaking saute so that you can then have a pressure cooker thing done in 20 minutes? That it's like doubling the freaking time it takes to make something. Who wants that? Do you want that stuff? No.
No. Do you but you don't have a pressure cooker, do you? Why? You don't cook that way? You don't do braces?
No, I don't. Do you not like braces? Usually one for one person. So by the way, Stas is like trying to do some sort of like Christmasy blues crap. Nastasia, every day of the week, Nastashi's like, I gotta get home because I'm cooking for like 30 people.
They're in my house. What does that take? Like, that's what I'm saying. The pressure cooker's 20 minutes, 20 freaking minutes is what I'm trying to tell you. It's just it seems like a lot of work.
Seems like a lot of work. If any listener wants to send Nastasia a secret Santa gift. No. No. No.
Wow. No. Wow. Wow. Wow.
Yeah. Okay. Let me see here. Got a question in three related questions. And we're supposed to have the questions from last week, but like with this whole blowing things up at the thing, I you know where I'm all discombobed by it.
So these are the questions I have. Um one of the amazing things about low temp cooking has been uh being part of the online community that has put in so many hours working on and sharing techniques and ideas. The technique has been largely ignored by the cookbook publishing world, and they're saying are there about four books? Is that true? I don't know.
There's the Thomas Keller, there's the original one Roka book. Uh there's Modernist Cuisine, Modernist at Home. What do they have now? They also have they have Modernist in the Small Cafe, Modernist in the Bar. Modernist in the Bar, Modernist in the Uh Kidding.
Uh yours may be Well, no, I don't have Kenji's book has some uh stuff in it. Uh I'm sure the ideas and food uh guys have some in their books. Oh, what about uh there's a couple? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Ideas and food.
Oh. Yeah. Uh I don't know. I'm sure there's more, but you're right. There's not as many as there could be.
There's a there's also some European ones, but pfft. Well the the the Roka one's a European one. There's that weird German one where the temperatures were like twice as high as they should be. Remember that one? No.
Anyway. Uh it's a long time ago. Anyway, the uniqueness of the tur uh term um is it, what is it? Ignored by the cookbook publishing. The uniqueness of the term is allowed the online community to connect and build a body of knowledge that we can now benefit from.
I agree that Sous vide uh as a word is a low quality description for low temperature cooking. However, it is impossible to Google low temp techniques and temperatures. That's true, I guess. Uh is it worth giving up the benefit we have received from the term in order just to bow to accuracy? I don't know.
Uh I never say it. But again, yeah, you're right. Like I have benefited from Google search analytics with things like cooking issues with as one word or like Booker and DAX. Uh yeah, I mean look, it's too late. I've like I I've been saying this for a long time.
It's too late to to go back and, you know, not have had relations with the dog on this one. It's like, you know, um I I just think it's it's bad because it's not it's like not accurate. It's less important now, I guess, because people know it all, but it was really a big deal when l restaurants were getting uh you know fines and shut down for using Sous vide and people were confusing the two techniques because l low temperature cooking with a circulator uh that had no actual regulations on it. Uh it was just a vacuum machine that had the regulation, so it was dragging an entire set of techniques into like a like a kettle of nasty hot water when it didn't need to be. And I think, you know, especially when I was talking to Philip Preston back in the day uh and uh other people, I was like, why are you marketing a why are you marketing a cooking a piece of cooking equipment that can be used without a vacuum machine and you're hanging the name of it and the name of the technique on this other much more expensive piece of equipment that you don't need to invest in right away?
So it just doesn't make any doesn't make any sense. It would be like saying um, you know, i it would be like only having the word for sunglasses be driving glasses, so that you felt that you had to go buy a freaking automobile just to use a pair of freaking glasses, and it's not the case. That's not really a good analogy, but I'm coming up with it on the top of my head. It's like no you don't need a vacuum machine for uh low temp cooking or for a circulator, so why would you tie the terms together? But again, I've lost so whatever.
You know, you can't turns out not only can you not win them all, you can't really win any of them. Do you know what I mean? Just can't win. Um, does Nastasia hate rabbits? No.
I mean, well, to eat. Yeah, pets or eating. Uh it's fine to eat too. What are you doing? You have no thoughts when we're gonna do that.
No, I haven't eaten it enough. But it's fine. I will eat it. I got a rabbit sausage once from Heritage Foods is one of the best things that I made like a pasta with it. It was so good.
It's a strong plug, Jack. That's good. Thanks. Just working that right in there. You didn't even have the question ahead of time, right?
Nope. Nice. Um so there, no, Nastasia does not hate rabbits. Alive or dead. Unless they're served with biscuits, in which case she hates it.
Ooh, like a like a rabbit sausage, egg and cheese on a biscuit. Sounds good. Does except for no biscuits. No biscuits. Yeah, you're crazy.
She really is straight up nuts. It just doesn't make any sense. How about Yorkshire pudding? I've not had that. What is that?
Well, it's not really a biscuit. It's like you when you take when you do you like prime rib at Christmas time? Mm-hmm. Jack, do you like a prime rib at Christmas time? Yeah.
I think I might have prime rib or Christmas time this year. So what you do is is when you uh cook the prime rib in traditional way, or if you do uh if you do low temper insurance and then do a roast off on it, you get the drippings into the pan, right? So you have these fat drippings in the thing. And then you basically take a um what we used to call like a Dutch baby mix, which is like a thin pancakey batter whipped up with a bunch of eggs, and you dump it into the pan with the grease, and it just puffs up into this like beef grease pop over. It's like it's like it's like it's like one giant popover dot com.
So you like pop so you like popovers. I do like popovers. So you're not a total enemy of quality. Jack, you like popovers, right? Yeah.
Is there anyone that doesn't like a popover? Hard to find. What's the matter? Isn't it the same chair you've been using for like a billion years? I think it or somebody big sat in it.
Did somebody big sit in Nastasia's chair? I can't say uncomfortable. Wow. You've been you've literally sat in this chair for almost 200 episodes. Blown out.
It might be this one that's usually here, and this one this one's over there. Jack. Donate to Heritage Radio today and help us buy new chairs. Yeah, Nastasia's Nastasia's butt well, thank you. Yeah.
Uh back to rabbits. That said, the online community has failed me completely when it comes to rabbits. This is all from by the way, from uh James 5 on. So I I think that's probably Jameson with a five. It's like that's the password.
Anyway. Yep. Uh I bought a rabbit at Union Square over the weekend. Uh went to stew the saddle, want to stew the saddle later, but I'm first looking to low temp confide the legs. Online temperatures and times are all over the map.
Blog commenters complain about pasty on every uh almost every site I have found making any recommendations. I saw a forum post claiming that modernist cuisine calls for 66 degrees Celsius for one hour. Uh that's high. Other sites were doing uh tests around 60 to 64 Celsius, but all with an ongoing conversation about time and claiming that too long and the meat goes pasty. What do you think about the word pasty?
Don't like it. Don't like it. Do you like it? No. What about like pateashoo?
No, don't like it. No. We know what a pasty is. Yeah. Are you from are you all all of a sudden you're from that area of the country?
Where were you from? From Long Island, but I went uh I went up to the Upper Peninsula this summer. Yeah in uh Michigan, and I had uh like a traditional pasty. So some meat pies? Yeah.
Were they good? It was really good. What were the crust like? Was the crust flaky or oily? It was a little bit flaky, like oily, like exud.
Oh, I love a pot pie. Yeah. Okay, Stas. Yes. Pot pie?
Like papay, yeah. Okay, so you like b hate biscuits, but like pie crusts. No, I don't like the crust of a hot pie. What the what? Oh man.
No way. Yeah, you break it up, is the uh no, you know what? Well, first of all, I like a traditional freaking pot pie. Here's what I don't want. I don't want you to take a hotel pan, throw some crumbly crust bits on top of the pot pie mix and say that you served me a pot pie.
Oh, no way. That is garbage. Garbage. Pot pie. I remember when I was a kid.
I used to put myself on fad diets when I was a kid. I don't know. Like literally, like I would do I would like not eat all day. I used to you know what I used to eat a lot of when I was a kid? Steak'ems.
Remember steakhums? Steakhums are like they're like fake cheesesteak meat. It's like pulped, pulped beef that they spray onto a piece of wax paper and then freeze solid. So bad. Yes.
You literally what you have to do is you have to take it apart frozen because otherwise it just disintegrates it back into meat paste again. And you stick it on your on your electric skillet because invariably these are made with electric skillets from the 70s. And then they kind of shrivel up and they solidify into these kind of like cheesesteak things. Anyway, so I had everything like exactly sussed out. I was like X number of slices of American cheese, X amount of sauteed onions, X number of steakums on this particular roll with mayo and ketchup was like right at this number.
I forget what the number was, but I had it right dialed in and it would be all I ate. Why? All day. Because I was an idiot. Anyways, I wouldn't even on this.
What are we talking about? Pot pies. We started with it. So I remember I looked up like how many calories were in a pot pie, and I was like, oh my God. And you know what then I realized?
Calorie counting's for the birds. Crap on that. It was all done. I was like, you know what? And you know, have you ever read the book Catching Fire?
No. Uh how how cooking made people human or whatever. It's interesting, but they you know, they talk about a lot of things. You know, one of the things that's a hundred percent true is every calorie counting mechanism that is used is complete garbage. And, you know, they you know, this person actually has uh rangum, I think is his name, actually has real data to back it up.
Whereas I always use this simple thought experiment. Have I said this one before on the air? I don't know. If you take uh Jack, and you can do this over the holidays. If you take a gallon of oil, right, and you calculate how many calories were in a gallon of oil, you'd gain a good amount of weight, right?
If calories were actually calories. If you could actually absorb all the calories that you eat in an equally potential way, right? Swallowing a gallon of oil would be a problematic. However, if you swallow a gallon of oil, you just crap a gallon of oil out. You know what I'm saying?
And now he says it in the book in a much more kind of your like smoothie and juicing thing. I think juicing, though, you're gonna absorb a lot more. So like I actually absorb less than I guess the average person because I wolf things down. Nastashi says that I'm inhuman. So like all chunks of uh like, you know.
Anyway, his main point is that raw food diets are literally like, you know, even uh a very rich uh Western city dweller can barely survive on a raw food diet in terms because they have to eat so much more because you're the foods the unless you cook it, the food's not really available to your body, so they have to eat so much more. So his point is is that and this is why it's how cooking made us human is that there's no way that modern humans could have existed based on a uh a raw diet, because he says chimps have to spend like like almost a third of their day chewing things because they're eating raw, raw food and they have to eat so much of it and they have to chew the hell out of it. How the hell do we get on this? Pot pies. Uh detour was from pasty.
That was my fault. Oh, yeah, all right. Well, no, it's it's always my fault, Jack. It's never your fault. Oh, meat goes pasty.
Yeah. Uh anyway, uh if time is so important, doesn't that mean that they are cooking so hot uh that you might as well use an oven and not really low temperature? Why would the rabbit be unique in requiring such a specific time requirement, unless we were getting the temps wrong? And do you have any suggestions on time or temps? Furthermore, even traditional confíe recipes do not seem to agree.
I've seen people insisting that you keep the oven under 210 degrees, and others calling for 350 and even 375. Times vary from two hours to ten. Uh is the time uh if the time is such a factor on the low temp, why is there no talk of pasty in the oven methods? Thanks for uh for your help. Uh Jameson, Jamie Five Sun.
Uh JV5 on. Five on. Uh anyways, uh here's why. Um you don't notice the pastiness in a piece of meat when you simply overcook it, right? So the classic pasty meat that you get is uh tenderloin.
Any kind of tenderloin, if you cook it for too long, even without overcooking it, it tends to go pasty. And that's because the muscle doesn't actually have any real structure of its own. That's the problem. So uh things l things like beef tenderloin are always described when they're cooked too long as pasty. Um and I haven't done a lot of rabbit low temp, but I guess rabbit has the same kind of of an issue.
Anything that, like I say, is like very low in in connective tissue. I think that uh chicken, especially if it's vacuum bagged and cooked too long, goes uh kind of pasty or fibrousy. It's almost the fibers like become almost separated so that when you eat it, you get all this liquid at once, but then it turns into like a mush of fibers in your mouth as you chew it. And it's because the meat doesn't have too much structure of its own. That's the real problem.
So uh that's what they're talking about, and it doesn't happen in traditional cooking because you just usually undercook the inside and overcook the outside, and overcooking it just makes it hard, so it doesn't make it pasty. That's why it really only happens in these situations where you can get large pieces of meat that are all the same cooking temperature throughout it, that you really notice the phenomenon. Um anyways, so that the trick is is that you want to minimize uh also I think duck can get pasty. Duck can also go livery. So some the the two faults that you get with certain kinds of meats by cooking them too long, even at the proper temperature, is a fibrousness or pastiness.
Sometimes, like I say, it's more fiber, sometimes it's more paste. The worst also is like things like shrimp sometimes have an enzymatic reaction in them at low temperatures where they just turn to almost literally a paste that's completely unedible when you cook it for too long. Um so those are the ones that are really kind of time limited. And it it applies to the lower time, lower uh, you know, part of the of the temperature scale, like where you're not going all the way to a braise, but you're in like kind of the lower temperature. It's usually meats that ha are low in connective tissue.
Um on the pastiness. On the livery side, it's usually um like duck can go livery if you cook it too long. Things like especially uh really terrible are like cuts of beef that like don't have a lot of fat or structure like I have round in them, they tend to go livery and nasty when you when you cook them too long. Um and so that's why I tend to not really cook things like tenderloin low temp uh unless you're doing like a wellington or something like this and you need to just cook it through really quickly. But I try to keep all of those times on things that go pasty under an hour.
Um and you can do that in a couple of ways. So if you have something that's thick, you can uh you have to figure it out, but you can basically set your water bath a little bit higher than you actually want the center to be and then pull it um a little bit early before the thing gets up. Or you know, you can do you know any number of things like that, but it is problematic. It's best to try to keep pieces of things that go pasty in ways that you can cook them in under an hour. I've never really noticed any piece of meat going pasty in less than an hour.
Um anyway, that answered that question or not? A little bit. When you describe that shrimp turning into paste, it was really sickening. Yeah. Oh man, you know what?
I used to do that as a demo when I was teaching at the FCI. I would do that as a demo, and then all of a sudden one day I I wasn't able to uh reliably make the disgusting paste anymore. But it was so bad. And you know, for any of you who've been to one of my demos, if I make something on purpose that's crappy, I make you eat it. The point being that you well, you're supposed to know what happens, right?
You don't want to just take someone's freaking word for it. And so, you know, I used to enjoy watching people put it in their mouth and then everyone would spit it out because the texture was just like repulsive. Uh, but you know, alas, I was not able to. Hey, you know what I had that's not repulsive? So uh I'm not gonna name any names because that would be rude, but it's a three-star restaurant, Michelin Star restaurant in Tokyo called Jiro.
Nice. Not gonna mention who it is though, but maybe it's Jiro. Anyway, so Nastasia and I had, I believe, it was good. I had a good time. But stas, was that the worst the worst dish you've ever had at a Michelin-starred restaurant in your life?
Really? Yeah, yeah. The single worst dish I've ever had at a Michelin starred restaurant was this uh mantis shrimp that uh that I was we were served that was paste. It was basically somehow like it was cooked mantis shrimp and it had turned to kind of this granular paste. And it was just vile, right?
Mm-hmm. Remember that? You can tell by the look on your face that you remember it like, yeah. Uh also the most expensive. But uh the anyway, so the point is is that uh here in the US, we don't I don't really see live mantis shrimp that often.
And f how do I describe what a mantis shrimp looks like? It looks like imagine like a cross between a lobster and a centipede, but big. Wow. You know what I mean? Is that accurate?
Yeah, it's kind of like a C centipede. Anyway, um, but okay. Yeah, it was because it had been cooked and then frozen or something and then thawed, and then it was just like it was like Chiro, huh? Yeah, yeah. Jiro dreams of pasty mantis shrimp, apparently.
But the um so anywho, so and I've bought mantis shrimp frozen here in the US, and they're just freaking awful. Like a one time buy, because I used to I once tried one, I was doing uh, you know, like a Capino, and so I buy a bunch of stuff to throw into the Capino. So I'm like, ah, well, put a mantis shrimp in, why not? Wretching, wretching. Um terrible.
So in China, uh, and apparently it's like only been the rage for the past, I don't know, a couple of years or something. I went in Hong Kong, I went to one of these places where you buy you you buy the fish live and then then they take it and they cook it for you. And in fact, you can go next door to the boat and buy it from the boat and then they cook it at the restaurant. It's a really weird situation. You can never do that in the US.
So in the past couple of years, like very large mantis shrimp, like on the order of longer than a foot long, like big mantis shrimp, are all there live. And you know, they're like three inches across and like over a foot long, these mantis shrimp, and they're like kind of all flopping around. It's really very like, you know, prehistoric looking stuff. And the here the it was freaking awesome. Now now to gauge whether or not you're gonna like this, right?
Are you know you're familiar with a salt and pepper shrimp, they're cooked twice, right? So they're cooked, they're f they're fried up and then fried again so that they get the cr they're super crispy on the outside. And when the shells are thin enough, you just you can eat the shells. Right? You familiar with this, Jack?
Yeah. Yeah. And so like you always see people peeling it, and I'm like, you're losing all the flavor. Yeah, yeah. So these thin-shelled shrimp, you can double the mantis shrimp, even though they're huge like that, the ones that I had, the shells were thin enough that when they did the double the double cook-off like that on them, you could just eat the whole damn thing.
That was awesome. So it was like hacked up into pieces and served, and it was just freaking freaking really good. I had some other I don't know. Someday we'll talk about someday we'll have time to talk about the uh interesting food stuff. Anyway, have a question in here uh from Steve that I don't have an answer to, so I'm hoping that uh I'm hoping that the internets of uh of people at the Heritage Radio can hook us up on this.
Hello everyone. My name is Steve. I just discovered your podcast recently, and I love it. This is gonna grow stars out, so I'm gonna look at her face. I've been ready, ready.
And uh, what's your face? You have a neutral face? Yeah, do it. Because I read it like when like a week ago. And you were like, uh uh big fan of the cooking drama known as Hannibal on NBC.
So Hannibal actually was a cooking show? It was about cannibalism and cooking? I really don't know. Jack, you familiar with this show? Not at all.
Now can't be. Well, I guess cooking because he was a can he was a Hannibal, Hannibal the Cannibal. Sure. I'd guess. Listen to you, Jack.
I don't watch TV. All right. It's true. You don't like TV. No, not really.
Nothing. No. I don't I don't have cable or a TV. I have a projector and I'll watch like movies. Do you have Netflix?
No. I know. I'm sorry. How do you make um you know how uh how do you stay plugged into uh pop culture there? There just the internet, just the YouTube all the time?
That's the thing. I all the TV stuff kind of goes over my head. People talk about all the shows they keep up on. Um that's like the one thing I kind of unsubscribe from. So people don't uh don't uh try to engage Jack in conversations about the TV shows that you just watch.
Boring conversation ahead. Wow. Damn. Wow. I love this, Jack.
You know, I don't usually get the hater side of Jack. Rare. Rare. I mean, I get plenty of hate from me, plenty of hate from Stas. Very little hate from Jack.
I've like glad you brought it for Christmas. This is the season. Yeah. Stas, did you have you pulled out your uh Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer set? Oh my god.
So Nastasia has the entire Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer, like what is it, 30 or 50, 40th year anniversary set? Where you had to buy you had to buy Yukon Cornelius, Hermy, Rudolph, and Santa Claus, and then you send away and you get the bumble. Right. And Stas, I think, was the only person that ever sent them all and got the bumble. It took a really long time to get them.
No, we thought they were gonna screw you on the bumble. I know. That that is something Nastasia likes a lot. And by the way, I agree with her. All the rank and bass old, like, you know.
Oh my god. I wish Stas, you gotta tweet out the bumble is on the top of Nastasi's Christmas tree, like King Kong on the top of the Empire State Building. And you know, uh you are hater in general, but you do pull out the Christmas, which I enjoy. Um on the Hannibal page here for the on Wikipedia. And apparently Jose Andres was the series' culinary cannibal consultant.
Yeah, that's what that's well, right. Is that what he's getting to in the church? That's crazy. Yeah. Anyway, so the show was canceled because I guess there's only so much cannibalism people want to see uh on the TV.
I don't know. And one of the things that stuck out to me was an episode where Hannibal talks about centrifuging Sow's blood uh in order to create a clear liquid that tastes sweet. That would be the plasma. I asked some medical professionals about it, and they mentioned that they had heard anecdotally from third hand sources, third hand, like that. I never tasted it, that serum and plasma are indeed sweet tasting.
Sounds interesting. I wanted to try it for an awful themed dinner. I got a cheap centrifuge that's been some blood. A six tube uh primitive Clay Adams model 0181, which is like a standard uh uh thing. Uh that I think was used by companies to give employees physicals for commercials, driver's license tests or something like this.
Anyways, the capacity is horrible, but I got some pork blood from my local butcher to centrifuge, and after about half an hour I got zero zilch separation. This puzzled me, since this machine was presumably used to separate blood for physicals. I called the butcher shop I got the blood from Bel Campo Meats in Los Angeles. So you can hang out and get some uh thanks. Uh and they said they didn't add anything to the blood as an anticoagulant.
It's just pure pork blood. It can't really be true though, right? Otherwise it would coagulate. I think there's gotta be some I think uh it maybe if the doesn't the pH I forget. I it's been such a long.
There's plenty of literature about cooking with blood from plenty of sources, but nothing I can find out about centrifuging it for culinary use. Since Jose Andres was the culinary consultant on the Hannibal TV series, and he hasn't mentioned anything about centrifuging blood in any of his books, I have come to the conclusion that he has all this fun information about it and is jealously guarding it and keeping it from people like me. I don't think I can afford a centrifuge with significantly higher RPMs, so I'm wondering if there is a way to chemically clarify the solids out of blood similar to the way you clarify fruit juices and to produce a clear, possibly sweet serum or plasma. I always get them mixed up. Steve in Los Angeles.
So wow, I don't know. I've never centrifuged blood uh in any of my machines. Um, but this seems to me, Jack, am I right? Like this is something that I guarantee you we have people. I think so.
Like this is one of the things where you don't need me. There's been there's people out there, right? There's people out there. There's people out there. Don Vaux in from Berkeley, California.
You have never been to Berkeley. Isn't that weird? Do you like it over there? No. Nice.
Wow. What's so nice? All right. Uh and he says, uh, he says nice things about us, which I enjoy. He says, Well, I do have some questions, I don't know what to ask first yet.
Uh, anyways, we we might as well just ask anything, right? People ask anything. You don't have to wait till you have just anything. Ask a cooking question. Anyways, I do miss the original Fishes Fishes vodka.
Remember that, Jack? Yeah. Yeah. What I would like to know, and here's the question that's important. What I would like to know is where do I get the Jackie Molecules ringtone?
And is that still available from my phone? Ooh, we I might have taken care of this for him. Uh, but email us again, info at heritage radio network.org. Uh the response will be quicker if you're a donor of Heritage Radio Network. Yeah.
But uh shoot us an email, we'll sort it out. All right, and we'll and we'll see what Stas thinks about this. Also, this has probably been said before, but is Aubrey Plaza's character on Parks and Rec a character portrayal of Nastasia? You feel yourself like uh it seems uh like through the last two hundred and thirty episodes, I imagine Aubrey Plaza channeling Nastasia. Uh please don't hurt me, Stas.
I respect the hammer. She sounds like someone awesome to hang out with. Thanks. See, you saved yourself. Although I think Aubrey seems like cool.
Like I would want to hang out with her, right? Yeah. Anyway. Uh I tell all the cooks and bartenders I know about cooking issues. While I'm not in the industry myself, I seem to confuse people when I tell them I work in IT.
All the stuff on the show you guys talk about makes them think that I work in a kitchen, which is highly amusing as I feel like a total fake. Uh nice. Well, well, here's the making you feel like a a total fake. Yeah. Uh we do.
That's that's how we do. We I should wrap it up. Oh, all right. Stas is telling me we gotta pull off it. So we should say anything specific in Christmas?
We didn't do anything any any Christmasy things, any advice we need to give for Christmas cooking. I don't know. We didn't get any Christmas questions. Well, it's because they didn't know it was gonna be the last episode before the last yeah they would. Or war on Christmas.
Stas, are are you are you no Stas is a pro Christmas warrior? Jack, are you neutral? I'm a solstice guy. What? That's today.
Happy well no, that was yesterday. No, no, no. Twenty first. Twenty first. Yeah.
Anyway. Longest shortest day of the year, rather. A c a couple of things. Let me get a couple of things out of the way since I'm not having people call in, right? One, uh, I went to China.
I went to Hong Kong and Shenzhen. More on that later if you guys are interested. Um, but I went specifically, I met the guy who makes the Sears all. How cool is that? Also, Searsols are going to be back online in early January.
What do you mean? They're out? They sold out? Freaking animals. No, no, no, no, no.
The new load, they are taking their sweet time on putting them into the factories. Did you just say the new load? The new load. But is are there none available right now? Zero.
We sold out of ours. And the new load is being held on to. Where is it? It's they can't tell me. You know how they are.
We have none left. Zero. I think that's a good one. But someone online is selling one on Amazon for $7,300. Wow.
That's a joke. Let me tell you something, people. I told Amazon that they were gonna run out. We told them this was not on us. When did this happen?
Yesterday. I got a bunch of emails yesterday and then all morning I've been on the phone with them. Oh, Jesus. And it they're in the country, they just don't know guys. Freaking guys.
Freaking guys. And we're almost out of steak decorators. They're coming from. Hey, listen, if you guys listen, the steak decorator, we didn't do a lot of talking about it. It actually is a really nice piece of equipment, but Nastasi and I have to really feel that people want it in order for us to order another batch because they were really just for the Kickstarter people.
But you know, I use mine every day. It's like imagine if like, imagine if like lazy Sue if if like Susan stopped being lazy, took a bunch of anabolic steroids, and like, you know, she became like super robo. We can't call it RoboSusan because there's no motor in it. And we feel that like a robo Susan would have to be motorized, right? By the way, every restaurant I went to in China had a giant lazy Susan.
That's awesome. Yeah. Um, so I went to China to deal with uh possibly a new next year sometime Sears All thing. And also to deal with the centrifuge. And I got good news and I got bad news.
The bad news is it's taking us a little bit longer to do the centrifuge than I had hoped. I'm gonna go through another round of prototyping. Uh we will start talking about the centrifuge and releasing pictures uh early in the new year and hopefully in mid-January, and uh telling you about all of its capabilities and what it can do. Um but as usual, we don't want to put something out until we're happy with it, and so it's gonna take a month or two longer than we had hoped, right, Stas? Mm-hmm.
But it's gonna be when it happens. But remember, a lot of this is about uh, you know, well, we'll talk more in depth when I when when I when I announce it sometime in mid-January. Uh the other thing is is that when you're cooking for Christmas, or whatever, Hanukkah next year, quantum whatever, new year's, whatever. The primary thing, uh, and this is how I s like how I do try to do almost everything, is run a small test first. That's the thing, right?
It's like you're gonna have 15 or 20 people over, you're gonna spend money like a couple hundred dollars on meat, or you're gonna do some big thing of veg. Take the time to just do a couple of small scale tests first. Most of the time it's not that big of a deal. Like if it's a poultry problem, just get like one breast or one leg and test it out. And this is the same thing if you're gonna be on a TV show, test this stuff out before you're gonna before you're gonna do it, before you try to do it with the whole thing.
Because I know it seems like you don't have the time to do it, but that's really the way to figure out what's gonna happen. If you run just one or two simple tests the second time around, it's gonna be so much better. That's how I figure out everything anyway, and that's how hopefully you don't ruin the holidays. So happy holidays from cooking issues. Thanks for listening to this program on Heritage Radio Network.org.
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