This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the emergent circulator for Sous V by Chef Steps. Order now at Chefsteps.com/slash J-O-U-L-E. You're listening to Heritage Radio Network. We're a member supported food radio network, broadcasting over 35 weekly shows live from Bushwick, Brooklyn. Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond.
Find us at Heritage Radio Network.org. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Robertus Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brook Brook, Brooklyn. Today's program is brought to you by Modernist Pantry, providing magical ingredients for the modern cook for free videos, recipes, tips, and tricks. Visit blog.modnesspantry.com and call all of your cooking related questions in to 718497-2128.
That's 718497-2128. Joined as usual in the studio by Nastasia of the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing, Stas? Good. Yeah, doing good.
And we got uh we got my man Dave in the booth. What's going on? Also good. That was a stirring read of that ad. I love that.
Yeah, well, you know, if you're gonna do if you're gonna if you're gonna do it, you gotta do it as part of the, you know, it's it takes me at least uh 500 milliseconds to gear in to that voice. You know what I mean? Stas you ever see me like uh when we when I come in, I'm hacking, like like hacking up blood, getting off the bike, and like so the hits we do it. That's what it's all about, people. It's not about it's about making yourself feel what you need to feel.
Yeah, I mean, that was like Henry V for me out here. Yeah. Oh, Shackus Bar. Okay. So, uh, what do you have?
Anything good? Happy Valentine's Day, people. Oh, yeah. Uh, does anyone have anyone out there in uh in uh Heritage Radio Land have any last-minute Valentine's Day issues they need to address? Call them in to 7184972128.
Well, I mean, I wouldn't take I wouldn't take relationship advice from either of us. I don't know, maybe Dave could give we have a whole show based on relationship advice. What's that show, Dave? Issues. No, no, no.
What? Yeah, love bites, yeah. Listen, in the in the in the lead up to this, uh, where you know you you guys are pimping out uh Heritage Radio, it's like if you want to get behind the scenes in the restaurant world, people, you don't want to go behind the scenes in the restaurant world. That's the last place on earth you want to be. Do you think, does anybody think for a second, right?
I mean, like, everyone likes those shows where like, you know, people go behind the scenes and yell at people and all kinds of things are going wrong. But if like you felt like you were behind the scenes in the restaurant world, how many people do you think would actually try to get into the business and stuff? Zero. Uh yeah. Yeah.
Behind the scenes and your paycheck is like nothing. That's behind behind the scenes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, the behind the scenes everyone wants to get into is like is like uh, yeah, it's like, oh, oh, uh we're cooking good food, we're we're yelling at each other, we have camaraderie.
Do you know what I mean? The world. Yeah, no, yeah, right. Yeah, right. You're changing at least the the uh your diners next 15 minutes.
But like they but they yeah, like what they don't see is like I didn't get the good shift because the manager is a jack, what? You know what I mean? Or like, you know, the manager is sleeping with that other person and they got the good shift and I didn't, and look at my paycheck. Um. You know what I mean?
That's the side of the restaurant. That's the behind the scenes. That's the behind the behind the scenes. That's like what's really going on behind the scenes. You know what I mean?
Oh. Hey, it's good, man. It's all good. Or like uh, you know what? Like uh the hardest thing, and like uh I've never had to deal with it, so I mean that's not true.
I mean a long, long time ago, but like, you know, the idea just not knowing how much you're gonna make. That's the weird thing. Not for cooks, but like for front of house people. Just have no idea what you're gonna you know kind of what you're gonna make after you average it out, but like not a busy, not a busy night. You're cut, go home.
You know what I mean? Isn't it weird business? Mm-hmm. Yeah, you got a call about crab legs. Ooh, crab legs, you're on the air.
Hey Dave, it's uh Brandon Bird calling in. I got it. Um doing well, doing well. Hope you are. Um I got a uh nice couple of clusters of king crab legs.
Uh obviously pre cooked, you know, frozen at sea. Uh and I was wondering if you had a preferred method of reheating those beyond the usual uh steaming, or if that's the tried and crude method for a reason. Um, well, okay, first of all, like like uh so what kind of prep what kind of prep are you doing? Most of the time when I get those things, I do I do cold prep with them, except for like when I'm actually cooking them. But last time I cooked, because we used to do a thing where we would buy whole king crab live, which is intensely awesome.
It's so good. You should do it someday. It's expensive. But uh, but we steamed the we steamed it and then we we chilled it. We sold it still uh uh served it chilled.
I would say, look, they're already cooked at a very high temperature, right? Because that because that's how they do it. Uh and in fact, I happen to, after you know, many years of playing with it, enjoy shellfish if it's gonna be cooked. I don't want it overcooked, but I want it cooked at a fairly high temperature. So I would say steaming is good because it's relatively rapid.
I don't think you're going to do anything to the meat that hasn't already been done to the meat, and you're not going to leach anything in or out because it's relatively fast and you have relatively small contact between the cooking medium and the um the environment. I mean between the cooking medium and the thing you're cooking. So, you know, plus like those long skinny things in a pile, steam gets between them really nicely. I mean, you wouldn't want to go boil them. That would be insane.
You'd be an insane person if you did that. To throw all that money into a pot and leach all the flavor out of it, you'd be crazy. That'd be a crazy person's thing to do. You know what I mean? Um what are you gonna do with it?
Um well, I'm gonna bust out kitchen cheers and kind of uh pre-slice open the shells just to make them less finicky at the table. Right. Um and then just you know, steam them and do them with drawn butter. Yeah, okay. What kind of what kind of equipment do you have available to you?
Uh I've got a circulator, uh pressure cooker, uh steam basket. Uh I don't know. What are do you have have special thoughts? Uh well saying like, you know, if you own something like a C Vat. See, here's the thing, right?
So when you're cooking when you're cooking uh shellfish, you want the cook time to be relatively low, right? That's uh why you know steaming is good. Like long cooking times are not beneficial for shellfish. Um there's a number of reasons for this. Some of them I think are enzymatic.
So for instance, we used to do this demo where we would cook shrimp at a very, very low temperature for a long time and it would turn to mush, right? Like paste. Disgusting. Uh now, some of that's probably enzymatic, but some of it might also be that the stuff just gets mushy as it's cooked down because of the way the connective tissue is breaking down over time, just getting getting mushy, right? So like it could be that you what you want, I mean, that could be, it's my feeling that what you want is relatively fast cooking times on it.
That said, I think I've heard other people say that once it's cooked to a high temperature, that they can do a hot hold on it for a relatively long period of time at relatively low temperatures without having degradation. So, like what I would test, like what you could do if you had like a long, long, long time, right, is throw them in a in a in a bag, no extra water, you know what I mean, and then um just throw them into a circulator bath uh at you know at like at like you know 60, which is 140, or or somewhere around there, and just give it enough time to heat. I have no idea how long it would take to heat up because you have the air gap you gotta heat up, and then you gotta heat um that's heating through the shell's not a big problem, but then you gotta heat the meat. But what I don't know is if hot holding the meat would um if it would degrade it, right, over the amount of time it would take for you to heat it up, versus steaming it, you're gonna steam it for what, like five minutes. You know what I mean?
Something like this? Who knows? Yeah. So like I think that steaming's probably gonna do less damage. If you had access to, let's say, a combi oven, right?
Then I would throw it in and I would do a hundred percent humidity at some kind of middle range temperature to to see see kind of what's going on, and I would keep it probably under I'll try to keep everything under about 10-15 minutes, which is what I normally shoot for when I'm cooking uh like a like a lobster. When I'm cooking a lobster, for instance, I want to keep my cook times under about 15 minutes for texture reasons, no matter what temperature I'm cooking to. But again, I don't know whether that is only important during primary cook time or whether it's important during primary or secondary. Another thing is like when you listen to people talking about hot holding shellfish, most of the time people are hot holding shellfish. They're not hot holding uh at least that's I I shouldn't say this.
When people have asked me about it, they're not hot holding uh whole pieces of shellfish for people like tails uh or uh legs for a king crab. And so I think your ability to hot hold something in a sauce is a lot different because your textural expectations are very different for something that's in a sauce versus something that is uh like a whole muscle or a leg or something like that. Makes sense? Yeah that makes sense. I have had uh some luck before in the past where I took the meat out, put it in a bag with some butter and just let it come up to temperature in like 10 minutes.
Yeah that's fine. Yeah. But you want to serve it in the shell, right? A bit fussy with a whole bunch of legs to go through all that work. Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Well on the other hand, is this like the first course in a Valentine's Day meal? Uh no we're uh just gonna be surf and turf um with uh some sous-deed tenderloin not my favorite uh cut but it's my wife's favorite so you know it's all about it's all you know it's all about it's all about who you're cooking for, not who you know not yourself. Uh but the um here's what here's another thing I would say like part of the problem with king crab legs, right, or anything like this is that uh a lot of the um a lot of the kind of presentation style awesome is the big old leg. And some people really enjoy rip it me, for instance, uh really enjoy uh ripping the meat out of the shell, right? So, like you know, like if someone were to take the meat out of a lobster for anything other than a lobster roll, I would be kind of pissed because I enjoy shredding those things up into tiny pieces and having shell bits stick on my uh, you know, the person next to me's face.
Like, Stas, you've eaten lobster with me before, haven't you? No. But you wouldn't want to. You're not not want to. Like little I once hit her with a piece of uh inside of a what was it, what kind of like a it was like a grouse or a woodcock, yeah, and you got hit in the face with a piece of like stinky, like aged inside.
Yeah. And you were like, hmm, yeah, yeah, terrible. But what do you like eating out of the shell or not out of the shell, Stas? Not out of the shell. Anyway, so my point being that um, I don't know about your wife, but some people would love if someone took the meat out of the shell for them.
But here's the other problem. When you're spending all the money on the king crab leg, if it's out of the shell, it's like pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, gone. You know what I mean? It's gone. All that money gone down the throat, especially if I'm eating it.
And I don't know, maybe your wife savors things and it doesn't matter. But uh, you know, for me, like it's it's always a uh a play between this and that. But if it's if it is part of a larger course, you also have to think about the time it takes someone to extract the meat, they could be doing other things like eating their steak. So if i you know you know what I'm saying? It's like so.
I remember once we uh I served a first course of crabs, like I think I forget it was Dungeon S or something like this, and everyone spent their entire time breaking open the the all the crab parts, and then you know, nobody wanted to eat by the time uh they got to their main course. I mean, that's how you have like a whole meal of crabs, is because it takes so freaking long to get the meat out of the crab that you get full just with time. You just get you know, you just get sick of it. It's time to go to bed before you get full. I mean, have you ever been full of crab meat?
Um Yeah, once upon a time, it it did take quite a while. Yeah, like I have a follow-up question that refers to that, but go on. All right, well, I'm saying, like if you go to like a Maryland-style crab house, especially nowadays when the crabs are so tiny and all you can eat crabs, it's not all you can eat crabs, it's when do you go to bed? When are they shutting the kitchen down? I mean, like you know what I mean?
Like you can't possibly do you like eating crabs and sauce? Not really. Well, this is my question. Where in New York can you get all you can eat crabs? Because I'm at a loss, I can't find it.
Um there used to be a place wasn't all you can eat Hey, look, all you can eat also depends on how much you know your credit card can withstand. Because you can just hand them your credit card and be like, keep bringing it until I'm done. No, no, no, not like that. I mean like you pay a flat whatever 30, 40 bucks, and you get all the crabs that you get. There used to be a place.
I I uh I don't go out anymore that but there used to be a place over in um in like Brooklyn on the water somewhere that did it. But I'm talking like the one in Red Hook, right? I don't know, it was like 15 years ago. Yeah, I don't know. What and it's out of bit did it get swamped by the hurricane years ago?
No, it's there still, but they don't do an all you can eat. Uh yeah, no, that wasn't the place I was thinking of, but anyway, I don't know. I don't know. If you f if anyone finds one in New York, let's all somebody call in, please. We'll go eat it, we'll eat it all.
Or what's your what's your follow-up question, Dave? That was it. Oh, yeah, I don't know. So uh so one thing you could do is just do what you did before, but then you don't have the presentation of the uh of the shell. And if you want to get really freaking fussy about it, you cut the legs all the way in half down, reserve the shell, heat the meat, and replace it pre-buttered onto the freaking leg.
That's Valentine's Day for you, baby. That's baller. That's baller. Pain in the butt pain in the butt, though. What else you got?
That's it? All right, well, have a uh have a happy Valentine's Day. Thanks, same to you. All right. Um we had a question in from uh Matt, and the first thing uh my phone has decided to go into Tiny Type.
That's be a good band name, Tiny Type. There's another caller. If you want to do that, yeah. All right, call take a call, caller you're on the air. Hey man, it's uh Matt calling from Mystic.
I'm not the m I'm not the Matt that wrote in. All right. How goes it? How's Mystic? How much snow you got?
Between uh the Prophe whip and the gourmet whip and the EC canisters. Okay. Uh is there any substantial difference between the canopers and the heads look like the half a quart one will fit on the one quart one as well, right? Yeah, okay. So I don't remember which I never remember which line is which, but EC has at least three different models of um of unit.
And I'm not talking like the ones that are thermally insulated versus not. I'm talking about like lines like Profi versus the other one. They had an even lower grade one years ago that had plastic heads on it that were for consumer only. Um they all are completely interchangeable. So you can stick the head of any unit that EC has ever made uh for a whipper.
You know, they obviously the um the uh the seltzer siphons are not interchangeable with with the with the whippers. But any model they've made, and I've tested models up to uh about twenty five years old, are completely 100% interchangeable. There are differences between the uh heads, some of which, especially on the newer ones, and I forget when they introduced this, but it's probably something in the area of uh you know 15 years ago or something, they have extra safety features in the in the newer heads. Um if you look at the threads in the uh head of uh one of the any recent one that you're likely to get, uh you'll notice that they're uh what's called interrupted threads. They have uh a line milled out of them, and that's uh an escape vent such that if you need to open it under pressure, which is actually very difficult to do, uh you you know it'll vent down that line uh before the top disengages.
So you can never gonna get the top blowing off of the bottom as you unscrew it. The uh they've changed the nature, the different series have different gaskets on the inside, uh, which by the way, the gaskets are also, to the best of my knowledge, a hundred percent interchangeable, so you can take the gasket from one and put it into another. The actual, I think also the screw attachments, I think are 100% um interchangeable, the exception being the old plastic uh home ones, don't have a screw-in uh whipper tip, they have a push-in whipper tip, so that's not interchangeable. But um all the other aspects of it, I think are interchangeable. The actual valve parts on the bottom are not, I think those are all different from unit to unit.
Um, but everything else pretty much is the threads on the CO2 uh things are completely interchangeable. Um I've never had one that's not. Um is that true? I think that's true. I think that's true.
Yeah, I think they're 100% interchangeable. You know, like because uh it would be hard for them to make it not, you know what I mean? Right. Uh yeah, cool. I have uh I have the half-liter one, and I've been like looking, I've been guaranteed that it find uh one liter wall, and I just wanted to make sure that uh like thermostaties dampling or anything like that, there wouldn't be a problem.
No, those Austrians, man, they're like they they're so hyped on safety, which is which is why like um they provided for me when I was writing uh liquid intelligence, they provided for me uh a series of um pressures in at in different liquids at different temperatures in different bottles at it, you know, with different numbers of chargers, and they literally would not provide me for data that they knew, because I spoke to their engineers, they dated they knew it was safe on their unit, but they wouldn't put it in case you used a unit that was manufactured by somebody else that didn't have the safety features that theirs did that might blow up. So they you know the you literally cannot put into uh an EC uh enough of a pressure that it will um that it will explode because it will back vent before this is what they tell me it'll backvent through the um through the CO2 entry point or through the N2O entry point rather before it explodes. The second mode of failure in um in an EC bottle is that the bottom that's dimpled in, right? That you know looks like a champagne bottle on the bottom, that dimple will invert to release the pressure. That's the secondary, like if all hell breaks loose and you created a special lid that screwed it and sealed it tight, right?
Then the bottom would invert before it um it explodes. And then they take every once in a while, I forget how many like thousand they make, they take and they screw it into a unit and literally explode it. Um they do it two ways. They do it hydrostatically, which is not very violent, right? Because whenever you know, hydr see, when you're when you're when you fill something with water and then you pump water in it to increase the pressure to explode it, do a hydrostatic test, which is how they test gas tanks.
Literally, as soon as the thing ruptures, because liquid's incompressible, it the pressure goes to zero because the you know the difference in volume between water under a thousand psi and water under zero psi is almost nothing. The volume difference is almost nothing. So um, so yeah, so they do a hydrostatic, but they also blow them up with air pressure and make sure that I mean it it probably sucks, you know what I mean, from a noise standpoint. But I've seen their rupture tests, and they don't they're not like pieces of shrapnel everywhere. They have a very nice failure mode.
Uh like opens up along the the side and just you know doesn't shatter, just opens up. So I would say you are a hundred percent safe. Plus, they're completely interchangeable. All right, cool. Yeah.
How much snow you got up there? I didn't get to go to Connecticut recently. Is it was the snow nice? Uh it was okay. It sort of turned crampy because it rained on uh Sunday or whatever, so it's like started out as probably about a foot and then the rain came and sort of ruined it on the shoreline.
You know, uh in New York we had some snow. Is there anything, Nastasi, more disgusting than old snow in New York City? It's so gross. Here's another thing. People take their dogs out to go to the bathroom in the snow, and then for some reason they're like, hey, it's snow, I don't need to pick up the poop.
No, especially you need to pick up the poop if there's snow, because then when it when the snow melts in New York City, people, for those of you that don't live in a city, when the snow melts in the city, the dog poop comes out to play. Like all the dog poop that people didn't pick up just like starts like it's like a glacier leaving. Instead of like little rocks strewn all over the glacial till, you get like dog poops everywhere. It's the worst. Speaking of which, I feel really bad.
Major, my labrador, today peed on a fruit vendor's box as they were unstacking it in the morning. What did you do? I I didn't notice it until it was too too. I don't know. I don't man, it's just horrible, horrifying.
Horrifying. What? Did you go ostrich? Uh I might have gone a little ostrich. I might have gone a little ostrich.
You know, we're living in a society. Wow. I mean, like the thing is, I mean, what am I gonna do about it? Pay him for the whole box of fruit. Okay, I'll tell you a story.
I was once with a guy. I was once with a guy, right? I thought this was a family show. It's a kind of show. I was once with a guy, and he was drunk out of his mind, and we were in a taxi cab, and he threw up in the taxi cab.
You ever been in this situation, Nastasia? No. Where someone's thrown up in a taxi cab? So the taxi driver starts yelling at me. I didn't throw up, so I don't know why he's yelling at me, but he's yelling at me, and I'm like, listen, I'll I'll I'll give you here, we'll get out, I'll I'll help you clean it, whatever up.
He's like, and like I was gonna I paid him like a lot of extra money. He's like, I can't take in another you know, person because I have to go get this professionally clean, blah blah blah. I'm out all this money. So I gave him all this money, and I cleaned up all the puke out of the back of his thing. And he's complaining about how he's not gonna be able to pick anyone up, and literally, I'm like trying to get my friend like standing again.
I look over, as soon as he pulls away, he throws on his freaking dome and picks someone else up within my vision. Within my freaking vision. So I'm not about to pay anyone for he's like I can't sell it. Of course, he's gonna sell the freaking fruit. He's gonna sell the freaking fruit.
Let me tell you this also. From a from a disgust level, it was just the box. It wasn't on the fruit. It was the box. But it was just a little bit, like a little bit.
In truth, a little bit of pea on the box is much less disgusting than what you see every day, which they actually spill their product on the ground. Right? Because pea theoretically is sterile. Okay. Whatever.
It's still horrifying. It's horrifying. Dave, did you say we had another call or not? We do have another call. Alright, call, you're on the air.
Hey Dave, it's Chris from Green Zone again. How are you doing? Hey, I'm doing alright. What's going on? Uh well.
Hey, did you ever figure out that mint thing, by the way? Did you ever figure out that mint thing? Did you ever get the mint green, green, green? Wasn't that you? No, man.
It's uh it's impossible. So I have this person that I'm dealing with who has uh it's not freeze-dried, but it's like similar to freeze-dried. Uh I'm wondering whether if you use like this, which I can't talk about her process, but if if you have like something like that, or maybe freeze-dried mint pulverized, so the enzymes have been wiped out by dehydration, whether you could get a really serious mint flavor that way. I don't know. You ever tried freeze-dried?
No, I haven't, but I'll think about it. Yeah. Anyway, so what's your question? Yeah, so um, I have a bunch of your BDX cocktail cubes, and I think they work, you know, quite well. Thanks.
Um, one of my favorite bars in DC has an entirely hand cut ice program. So they only shake with one giant hand cut block of ice. And they get foam on their cocktails. Like, imagine just like a regular sour, like a dockery or something. Right.
Such a foam as if you'd think they've been using egg white. Um, just from the way they shake and the ice they're using. And like no matter what I do, using your cubes, using big ice cubes myself, I can't get that. What size ice cube do they use? I don't.
What size ice cube are they using? Uh about two, two two inch cubes. Right. So I made I made the the cocktail cube slightly smaller than I would have making making. That would have made it uh if I could guarantee what shaker you were using.
So like the cocktail cube is made such that it will also shake effectively inside of a 16-ounce pint glass. Right. Um whereas if I knew you were gonna use just like, you know, uh the standard um tin shaker set, then I would have made it bigger. So that's probably some of it. Also, like those ice cubes, the one advantage that ice does have over the one that's pre-made is that it will kind of beat itself into the shape of your shaker as it's shaking.
You know what I mean? And so it'll it'll kind of optimize itself to the shaker as it's being used. So there might be some kind of um advantage there. Also, and all their bartenders get good texture, or is it one or two bartenders? Um I've only noticed it from one.
I mean, he's the owner operator, and he's my friend. When I go there, I try to like sit in front of him. How tall is he? How tall, not tall at all. Huh.
Because we had a bartender at Booker and Dax, uh, Michael Smole, who has like super long arms, and I swear to God, that guy's shaking drinks texture are like, I mean, better than I could do, that's for sure. You know what I mean? Like when we were using the same ice, same everything, and I, you know, I'm big fan of saying that like there's no you know, that sh you know, that not not to worry and that we can all get good results, which is basically true. But man, his freaking shaking drinks, just because his arm is your friend maybe he's not too tall, does he have monkey arms? No, not really.
I mean, like, Smole's like shake is like somehow. I you know what you've never investigated. I've investigated speed of shake, but I've never investigated throw length. Does he have an extraordinarily long throw throw length on his shoes? It's interesting because he does sort of I mean, he shakes fast, but it's also kind of like weird, like circular back and forth thing, I guess.
Yeah, I've never been able to discern, and you know, we've run the tests where I have like you know, a bunch of different bartenders using different shaking techniques and speed and all of that. And I've never obviously found a difference in temperature of the drink and therefore in dilution. But uh, and I wasn't able to notice much textural difference in the first round um that we did based on texture, other than the ice floating on the surface. Now, this was years ago though, and we were we were using mainly bartenders who were all within a relatively um narrow range of styles. This was on your blog, right?
Yeah, yeah, years and years of years ago. And we were all using the same ice, cold draft. It would be interesting to rerun with big ice and see whether or not shaking style can influence the texture of the drink when using big ice. And you know what? It might be possible.
Because, you know, it might be possible. Yeah, I mean, one of the things I'm wondering is that when I shake with big ice, I'm using regular, you know, ice mold ice, which is not perfectly clear and has, you know, air bubbles and imperfections and stuff in it, where they're you know carving their cubes out of giant clear block. I'm wondering if the ice itself makes a difference, you know, the character of the ice regardless of the shape. Yeah, I highly doubt it. And my my the the thing about the um like frozen shake ice is I th you know it is true that uh sometimes, especially like let's say you have hard water and or a lot of uh gas and the ice is super cloudy, right?
So it's not just a situation where you have a modestly clear cube with that like white ball of garbage in the middle of it. Okay. Yeah. Uh those cubes tend to rupture when you're shaking with them. Right.
And if if your cube ruptures when you're shaking, then you're not getting the texturizing effect of it anyway, right? Because it's it's basically a physical effect, in my experience. Maybe that's the maybe that is an advantage to the perfectly clear ice. Yeah, the perfectly clear ice won't sh won't shatter, but I have to say our shake ice doesn't shatter either. Now we are New York City water is pretty um, you know, it's is pretty relatively, you know, soft and in inclusion free.
Uh and and if we s if we were, you know, in i in our dump sink, if I was noticing a bunch of shattered shake cubes, I would be I would change what we did because they one as soon as it shatters into into pieces, it's no longer serving its function as a texturizer. But um I I am now interested in whether I don't have the well, you know what? Like when when we get the new uh bar up and running, I'll run some tests, or maybe you can run some tests and come come back to me. Different shake styles when using big ice, because it's a test I've never run blind. Yeah.
You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, one of the things that my my friend has said is that ice sort of kills the foam. So he says he just shakes with one cube and he shakes it in a way to not break up the cube and then like strains it as soon as possible. He doesn't let the shaker sit around before straining it. Well, that's definitely true.
I mean, but the same is true of like you shouldn't let it sit around in the glass before you drink it. Well, right, of course. But I mean, so you know, I was doing these tests myself. I made myself a bunch of dockeries last night. And as soon as I cracked the tin, there was like a huge amount of foam in the tin, and then I poured it out through uh cocktail kingdom corrico strainer, so no fine straining, into the glass, and like almost immediately the foam dissipated.
Right. And I'm wondering why would that happen. Well, there's not much in a daiquiri to hold foam. You know what I mean? Like there's just not much there.
Uh you know, so you know, and people have tried using different syrups with stuff in it to hold um to hold the foam better, like gum syrups and things like this. Does does gum syrup help for that? I've never had good luck with it, to be honest. Yeah, I know, I know your I know your opinions on gum syrup. Yeah, I mean like m but you know, the uh that's not to say that other people you know, th th with anything in life, right?
You you only test what you test, and if you don't find a lot of um you know, if if that tree of inquiry is not bearing fruit, you tend to just drop it. And there could be, you know, it could be that if you just stuck with it or ch changed your parameters a little bit, you get some kind of golden recipe. So I you know, like I'm totally um in with anything in cooking or an you know, a basically anything in in life. If someone comes and shows you something that's awesome, then it's awesome and you gotta change your position. You know what I mean?
I have not yet been shown that. I also don't believe I believe that um I don't believe that I don't understand the ice being a kind of a foam killer situation. Well, I think he meant like if it breaks up into little pieces, it just um it you know it'll it'll melt and kind of kill the foam. I don't quite understand either. I don't really kind of I I tend to not believe anything anyone says.
I believe the results people get, and then the trick is analyzing how they got the results and what the actual reason is, right? So what you know is that your buddy gets superior results, right? So now we also know that your buddy uses uh large hand cut uh ice. So then the question is, okay, if you were to load two shakers with different ice loads, like one regular shake ice and one hi ice the same size as the shake ice and have him shake both, do they come out? And then if if that's the case, then it's something having to do either with his shaking or his pouring procedure, or one of those two.
You know what I mean? Sure, sure. I'd be interested to hear whatever you whatever you find out because uh when we reopen, whenever you reopen a new place, uh I think it makes sense, and even if you have the time, it's just hard when you're actually running in service, uh, it makes sense to um kind of reevaluate fresh all all of your precepts. You know what I mean? Uh and then um that's how you you know, as I say, that's how you learn by just constantly reevaluating yourself.
It's just who has the time when you're actually in service, you just never have the time to reevaluate everything, you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, and I personally don't have access to clear hand cut ice, so well, you could buy, you know, you can buy it from uh ice carving places, and then you have the added fun of being able to break down uh a block. So you know, I for some reason the guys at at uh Sombar, like they were all like hemming and hawing about it, but I wanted to get one of those 200-pound ice blocks in, not for service, just you know, as a fun thing for the bartenders to do to kind of break it down, but you know, we never we never did it. You know, but then I don't know, like remember that Stas? I was like, I'll you know, I'll get a chainsaw, we'll do the whole, we'll do the whole thing, you know.
Uh and then it just never it never happened. But I'm sure if you're friends with this person, they'll lend you some cubes. You take it home, you throw them in the freezer, let them temper out before you use them. Do they pre they cut to order? Are they that?
How long does it take them to make a drink? Well, I mean, they cut them sort of at the beginning of shift and maybe halfway through the shift, like the reload. Yeah, okay. So yeah, I'm sure that like, or you could just go there like, you know, if you're friends with them, go there like before service sometime and like run a you know, run a test with them, you know, something like that. I'd be interested to hear what happens.
Yeah. Yeah, in the meantime, I'm gonna send you a picture of what one of their shaken drinks looks like looks like. You know what I'm talking about. Alright, cool. Yeah, then we'll get uh you know what?
We'll we'll have a battle of the East Coast, and I'll bring uh I'll bring uh Michael Smole in and have uh Michael go go to town on you guys. We'll see who gets the best shaking drinks. Sound sounds good. All right. Cool then.
All right, you want to take a break and come back, Dave? Uh sure. Right back with cooking issues. This episode is brought to you by Jewel, the immersion circulator for Sous vide by Chef Steps. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a pretty good cook.
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Time to do a little more business. We got the uh got some Modernist Pantry business to do. Uh by the way, uh, we don't have an announcement this week for the spinzall. We do uh we are not charging your credit cards. Oh, yeah, we should say that now.
We had some people. Here's what happened. Uh let me do it, we'll do the ad first. We'll do the ad. Modernist Pantry was created by food lovers and cooking issues fans, just like you.
Janie Chris, and the Modernist Pantry family share your passion for experimentation and have everything you need to make culinary magic happen in your own kitchen. Professional chef, home cooked, food enthusiast, no matter your skill or experience, Modernist Pantry has something for you. They make it easy to get the ingredients and tools you need and can't find anywhere else, so that you can spend less time hunting and gathering and more time creating memorable dishes and culinary experiences. Visit modernist pantry.com today to discover why cooking issues listeners call Modernist Pantry the cook's secret weapon. Be sure to check out their new kitchen alchemy blog at blog.modernistpantry.com for free recipes, tips, and tricks.
And don't forget to follow Modernist Pantry on social media to keep up with what is new and exciting in the world of culinary ingredients and tools. I think they just called you a culinary tool, S. Nice. Sick burn. Yeah, you know, Dax does that all Dax does all that all the time.
Anytime anyone says any relatively like word that can be taken in a pejorative way, Dax is like, Dad, they just called you that. Like whatever it is. You learned it from watching May. Yeah, yeah. Wait, so what else were we gonna?
Wait, we were talking about charging credit cards. Oh, yeah, yeah. So, uh, so we had an issue. So the we're using a kind of a uh kind of a fake crowdfunding thing for the spinz all called a thhrinacea. What does that even mean?
We looked it up once, right? Thranacea. Bad girls drinking coffee with MCT oil, cashew, and cacao, and it says it's paleo. What's MCT? I don't know.
But is coffee paleo? Uh, well, it depends. I mean, like paleo, the definition of paleo, right? Make it as a caveman. Right.
But like, what what's in there? Coffee. Okay, so we're talking now like Ethiopian Highlands. What else? MCT.
Maybe Yemen. MCT. I don't know what that is. Cashew and cacao. So cashews don't come from there.
So, unless you were like real, I don't know. Yeah, so like that's the thing. No, paleo is like anything, basically it means not grains. Nothing that has been uh so they would have been able to make coffee back then. You can go, uh I think there are wild coffee species that you could kind of do that to.
I doubt that they're using that. You know what I mean? Like So the Ethiopian would have to go where to get the cashews and then back. Cashews, uh, where are cashews from? I think that they're they're Asian, aren't they?
Aren't they like or like uh Afghanistan? Also, like that paleo person, like, you know, let's hope you know, getting the cashew out of the cashew apple can be very irritating to your skin. You know what I mean? Like, it just it doesn't seem very likely. You know what I mean?
Yeah. Just seem doesn't seem likely. Cashews originated in Brazil. Oh, okay. Oh, what?
Really? That's what the internet says. Why do they grow all the cashew apples in Asia then? Maybe anyway, so Brazil. So yeah, so not possible.
So it's not not possible. So the paleo guy or woman in like the highlands of, I forget whether it's Yemen or Ethiopia, around there, right, that area of the world, right? Finds like some high altitude coffee bush, right? Takes the coffee beans, cherries off, and then you know the story of Caldi's goats, right? The story is is that the these coffee cherries fell into the fire and got buoyed, and then the goats ate it, and then the goats went crazy because of all the caffeine, and Caldi realized that the goats were eating these things, and that's what got the goats all hyped up, and that's how Caldi figured out that coffee was this was the stiznuff, right?
So what uh what we're saying here is that somehow this person got hit on the head, right? Somehow they floated all the way down, right? Out, somehow, like I don't know how they made it out into the open ocean, right? And then around, and then they made it all the way to South America, and luckily their paleo pockets still had coffee in them. Yeah.
That they then roasted. And they're like, hey, this fruit that's incredibly like irritating in my skin. If I rip the seed out of it, I can turn that into an edible and then cacao. Yeah. Well, that's from that same neighborhood.
Oh, good, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's in luck. Yeah, yeah, he's in luck. Not paleo.
I don't understand what that means. I don't know. Hey, look, Nastasi, you don't want to insult a paleo. She has a very good looking colored drink, though. I don't know what the hell that is.
It's not the coffee. It's not the garbage thing. Anyway, but my point is that people love the paleo stuff. I don't understand it. I understand it.
So we're not charging credit cards. So back to the spinz all. So uh so the the the kind of weak crowdfunding thing that we use, Thrinacea, like as soon as you stop the campaign, it's like okay, we're charging everybody now, even though we had told everyone that we weren't charging them, so that's why it gave everyone a pre-authorization, but we're not charging you until we give the next update, and it's gonna be hopefully soon. We're working with uh we're working with the factory now to get uh some updates, right? Okay.
Um back to some questions. Um, this is Matt not from Mystic. Uh I found your show a few weeks ago, uh, and I'm churning through the back catalog. Ned, my five-year old son, is fascinated with the concept of anyone anywhere being referred to as the hammer, and asked multiple times a day how he could become a hammer. Any insight you could provide uh would be to his delight, I'm sure.
Alright, Stas, so give him some insight. Well, it's like again, I've told people this many times, but like the nostasia that you get here on the cooking issues radio uh podcast. You won't let me be the nostasia I am in real life. Well, no. Why can't she live, Dave?
Why can't she live? What do you mean? You you don't like it when I I'm like, alright, one question to the callers. You're like, let them do what they want to do. Well, it's well, it's like you ask, and then you are like, no, don't do that.
Well I guess it's kind of like, but like to really know what she's like, you have to see how she treats me off air. Or anyone, really. Like, for instance, like it could be that she's just like, like, Nastasia is someone, and I kind of appreciate this about you. Like, you like to kick people when they're down. You know what I mean?
Uh only friends. Only friends. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, if you're just the ones who can take it. You're like, yeah, yeah, you know, well, they dish it too.
Everyone dishes it takes it. I don't do it to anyone who doesn't dish it. Yeah, except for the fact that it's also true that you have zero respect for people that can't take it. So do you. That's where we That's that's the one thing.
That's where you intersect. That's the one thing that we really agree on. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you yeah, if you can't.
It's like like it's Nastasia's beyond if you don't dish it if you can't take it. She's like, if you can't take it, get out of my face. You know what I mean? It's like I don't know sensitivity. Yeah, life's life's too short, and dishing it out is so enjoyable that if you can't take it, you're just weak.
Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's like it's like I would never want to like, I would never want to live in like an egg shell world where you had to like you know, but Nastasia, like, the thing that Nastasia is unlike you know me, Nastasia in like enjoys it to the point where you're getting visibly agitated, not because you can't take it, but because she's literally filling time that you could be using to solve a problem with endless queries about how your problem's not going well. For instance, the worst place for Nastasia to be is in the cockpit of an airplane with a problem.
You know what I mean? Because she'd be like, you're losing altitude, you're losing altitude, the altitude is going down, and you're like, I know, I know. You know what I mean? When really, instead of saying I know, freaking out in that. You'd be spending No, you wouldn't.
You'd be too interested in messing with the pilots to like to like worry about actually dying. You know what I mean? The stall warning's going off. Couldn't we say the same for you though, Dave? I mean, I mean, like, for example, when you were uh grilling her about why she doesn't care about coffee.
Oh to open that up. That was a big that was a special one for us. No, but like that, I mean, like, that's like the the reason is because also what I know about Nastasia is that she's just saying it to be ornary. No, that's not true. It's like it's like people who say that they like it's like people who say they like egg white omelets.
Does anybody on earth like an egg white omelet? No. Hell no. No, they are freaking gross. They're freaking gross.
It's just a crappy meringue. An egg white, an egg white omelet is a poorly made meringue without sugar. It's just like it's gross. You know what I mean? It's just nasty.
Nobody likes it. They think they like it. It's like my sister with her freaking 1% milk. Does anybody like that garbage? No.
No, it's disgusting. And I what I hate is people who convince themselves that they like this garbage and it's really for like wrong health reasons. I'm okay, like, let's say, let's say you literally can't have something anymore because you're allergic to it or k or it'll kill you, right? Like, I can't have cherries right now until we figure out this allergy thing. Someday they'll figure it out.
Right? So, like, if I said I don't like cherries because I can't have them allergic to, or then I would be like, okay, the guy is just trying to deal with a problem he has, right? The guy is just trying to take his sour grapes and turn them into sweet lemons. You know what I'm saying? I I I would excuse that kind of behavior because there's no way around it, so you might as well pretend that the way your life is is the way you want it.
You know what I'm saying? There's a lot of fruit in that analogy. Yes, as usual. But like the but in situations like with the 1% milk where what you're doing isn't helping you at all or making a real difference, I just can't tolerate people saying that they actually like it. You know what I mean?
I'd be like, just say that you're following it for some crazy health reason or some sort of like belief you have, some mystical belief that you know that that that milk is gonna change your life. Or anything. You know what I'm saying, Stas? Yeah. No.
On the other hand, on the take the other side of it, uh, just give people what they freaking want. You know what? You know what's not fun? Uh like like being harangued by someone about your eating beliefs while you're doing it. So, like, I'll give you another example.
You know how like when you cook something for somebody? Okay, we've had this discussion before. What is your least favorite thing when you cook for someone that they do to you uh when the w to the food that you've made them? Uh season it before they eat it. Oh really?
My favorite is disassemble and disassemble it. Oh, like a hamburger and they're like Yeah, yeah, yeah, they take it apart or like a sandwich and they take apart the parts of the sandwich. But I'm like, just I assembled it in the order I want to. But the thing is, like, they're gonna enjoy it the way they want to enjoy it. I'll take my son Booker, who as I said, you know, has some issues with like food, but like he has his like things so dry that they're I know they are completely unpalatable.
And if you could just have him try the stuff to the way you want it, you know it would be better. But you can't force people to do it then. Because that's what he wants. He eats only protein. Why am I eating eggs and chicken?
You said shut up. No, I say it to you. I said it to you. Look, you don't know what it's like to cook for someone who's extremely picky. But like the uh my point being that like it is that it's a hard as a cook, it's very hard to ride the line between what you want people to like and what they actually like.
But you should usually just give people what they want. If they want an egg white omelet, just give them the freaking egg white omelet. You know what I mean? And then like go in the back room and just punch something. You know what I mean?
Like get a get a punching bag, drink an extra couple glasses of wine. Like that's a solution. You know what I mean? Um there is a solution. I'll give you an ex- I'll give you an example.
I'm not gonna say who it is, but there's someone I've known a long time and they're well known in the food world. At a certain point in college, worked at a froyo joint, right? And all the sorority uh um people would ch come in and they would order the fat-free granola to be a topping on their fat-free froyo, right? Now, if you had served them full fat granola, they would not have liked it because it's full fat. Let me give you another hint here.
There's no such thing as no fat granola. So what this person used to do was heap the regular granola, which is which is basically a method to take oats and have them carry fat for you, right? And like we'll put the full fat granola on top, and they freaking loved it. But if you told them that they were eating fat, and she was to say this, if you told them that they had full fat granola, they'd be like, Can we I don't like it? It's too greasy.
Can you get me the granola you used to have? And she's like, it's the same granola. But it's not cool. It's not cool to serve somebody something and lie about it. Do you ever do that?
Uh yeah. Really? Well, they're like, is there any butter in this? I'm trying to be on a diet. And I'm like, no.
See, I can't lie to people. The only I I used to lie, I uh the two times I've lied that I can remember about food. Two times I've lied. One, I'm sitting there grinding pepper onto a steak, right? Grinding, just grinding a lot of pepper on a steak.
And Booker comes up and he was going through an anti-pepper cake. He's like, Are you putting pepper on that steak? I said, no. Because you can literally see me grinding pepper onto it. I'm just like, no, I'm not.
And then that was it. He was like, oh. And he walked away. And the other was the time that Dax was like, I don't want French toast. I hate French toast.
I was like, try my Lithuanian toast. He was very young and he loved it. And like a couple years later, he was like, he was like, uh, that was the same as French toast, wasn't it, Dad? I'm like, yes. Yes, it was.
You know what I mean? So anyway. Lithuanian toast. Where'd we get to? Oh, so how do you become the hammer?
Just uh, I don't know, just you know, just be be more nostalgia-like, I guess. Right? Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh now for the food question.
Years ago, my grandmother taught me to home can tuna, uh, which is uh raw tuna, a quarter of a teaspoon salt packed in half pint jars, eleven pounds of pressure for an hour and forty minutes. That's a hundred minutes, right? Yeah, that's standard. Uh, and I learned that canned fish need not be vile dried, flavorless, uh dried out, flavorless dreck. Every other year or so, we'll haul ourselves out to the Oregon coast and pick up a couple whole lime caught tuna and process them.
The quality is so much better than supermarket tuna. It's like a completely different product altogether. I've had the fortune to taste some of the higher end Spanish and Russian tin stuff. I've never had the Russian stuff. You ever had Russian?
No. Uh Russian tin stuff that's pr I've had uh anyway, that's pretty uh damn fantastic. I'd like to gear my approach to eventually aging some of these out, as I've heard this is relatively common for Spanish producers to do, uh, though I may be misinformed on this. I'm only uh able to really find basic tame recipes for canning from my local extension office. Uh shout out to OSU.
Uh while these are great, they tend to err on the side of caution instead of the side of quality. I'm wondering if you have any knowledge or experience getting freaky with home canned fish. My first targets would probably be trout, mussels, and clams. Razors, long necks, and cockles are easiest to get for us. The whole family retains uh appropriate licenses to get them, so these little buddies are easy and basically free to get.
Thanks for any insight and guidance, Matt. Uh, I haven't actually done my own um uh canning. I happen to really like canned uh fish uh of all types, including I like canned octopus, I like canned mussels, I like canned oysters, I like canned tuna, I like canned sardines, I like canned uh mackerel. You like all that stuff, right, Stas? Yeah, I love that stuff.
Um But uh I have had the age stuff. Harold McGee brought us once uh aged uh sardines. I think he had also some aged spam, and he might have had some aged tuna. Remember that? Somebody got sick.
Piper, who used to work for us, claimed he got sick, but who knows? You know, you know with Piper's life, who knows what made him sick? You know what I mean? Spam doesn't have any gluten in it, right? No, it's just no.
A lot of salt. But uh but we had them up to I think what was it? Was it five or ten years old that McGee brought? Don't remember. It was something pretty old like that.
And it was good. Uh I mean, like actually the the sardines, I think there was so much variance because we had both Spanish and French producers. I think the variance between the different sardines was almost as high as the variance on aging, so it was kind of hard to uh check out. Also, Lucky Peach did something on aging. But relative to getting freaky with it, here's the issue.
Uh the canning recipes um are based on the amount of time and temperature it takes to get uh the fish up to a point where spores are killed because tuna is considered well, not considered, is low acid um food, right? So what they're trying to do is kill um specifically uh botulism. Uh now the time and temperatures that you're using for canning of those things kill all of the pathogenic spores, but I think for things like clam, you might even actually need to go higher or longer to kill anything that might possibly grow in it, right? Which is why occasionally you'll get cans that'll that'll blow, even though you've um even though you've cooked them. I don't know that for a fact but I read somewhere that uh clams in order to be a hundred percent completely sterile against everything ever uh that you're gonna do need to go um a little higher in temperature and um but I'm not sure so no I've never gone freaky you might be able if you really want to do lower temp what I would do is this first I would not I would try to do a lower time temp and see whether it really makes a difference.
Don't try to preserve it. Just keep it in the fridge for like a week right because put it this way let me just go back go back for a minute. Just start fresh. What you want to do is you want to attempt to cook the fish for a uh you can't cook it for a lower for at a lower temperature too much because you need to kill the spores period right that's why you're trying to make it shelf stable. What you can do is you can see whether or not cooking it at an intermediate temperature even makes a difference right so like I you let's say you did just regular boiling water canning and you did it for uh you know an you know 110 110 uh 100 minutes or whatever it is and then you put it into your fridge you let it age for uh you know you let it like mellow out for like a week uh week and a half it's gonna be fine right then you pull it out and you taste it what does that taste like compared to fresh canned properly tuna is it better?
Is it worse? It might that it might be actually worse those higher temperatures right once you've overcooked the tuna, the higher temperatures might actually re-soften the meat a little bit and increase the kind of meaty uh you know kind of uh flavors you get out of it. So you might find that those lower temperature canned fish might actually be not as good. Uh so I would run that test just to kind of see what's going on. Whether you prefer, like whether you prefer it straight out of the gate.
Now, if you if you do, in fact, prefer a lower temperature, let's say uh like a boiling water can um where it's sealed in a can and it's just under boiling water, then you can start looking into things like adding uh nitrites to it to kill um to kill the botulism such that botulism can't grow. And then you wouldn't be killing other sporeforming things necessarily, but you might make it bacteriostatic enough such that you could age it with a lower temperature, um lower temperature canning procedure. But I would run some tests first to see whether or not it even makes sense. Does that make sense, Nastasia? Yes, we are out of time.
What? It's one o'clock. Uh I had a question on uh what was it? It was on uh aging from Ritz. What was it about here?
Oh, all right. Well, we'll just get okay. I'll get to it real real quick. Uh Moritz uh wrote in about aging uh and said, by the way, uh, what's the address people should send their questions into? Um Lopez at Booker and Dax.com.
You got that, people? And Lopez Lopez. N Lopez at Booker and Dax.com. Umrights in, I'd love to hear what you guys think about ultrasonic aging and infusing uh with regards to um spirits. And so what they do is is people have used uh ultrasound to uh basically they flow lick liquor over wood chips uh and then they they can alter the temperature and aerate it and they hit it with ultrasound as a way to speed age it.
And the question is, what do I think about that? And what I think is this uh it might be possible to get a good tasting liquor this way, in other words, you might be able to get a result that you like, but I never think that accelerated aging or accelerated anything is a substitute for the slow, well, very rarely, like is the substitute the same thing. So I think everyone in the world should just stop what they're doing, stop focusing on is uh is rapid and rapid infusion and long-term infusion, is rapid aging, slow aging, are they the same? They're never gonna be the same. It's never ever, ever gonna be the same.
The question is, they're different. Are they both useful? Can they both make delicious products? And then if they can, use uh the technique that you want to get the result that you want. Next week I'm gonna talk about connected tissue because Todd wrote back about a connective tissue, and uh Nick Devlin in the UK is working maybe on us with some uh some heat transfer stuff, so we might have more fun low temperature uh meat stuff to talk about next week on Happy Valentine's Day on cooking issues.
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