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Join our hosts as they lead you through the world of craft brewing, behind the scenes of the restaurant industry, inside the battle over school food, and beyond. Find us at heritage radio network.org. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from roughly 12 to roughly 1245 from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick Brooklyn. Call in all of your questions to 718-497-2128. That's 718-497-2128.
Joined as usual by Nastasia of the Hammer. Sorry, sorry. Hold on, I did I didn't announce you yet. I was just bringing the microphone. That's the rules.
Sorry. Wait. Join as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? Good.
Yeah? Yeah. Got Dave in the booth. How you doing, Dave? Doing good.
Yeah. And because again, this is Take Your Son to Work Life. We have Booker Arnold with us in the studio. Now you say something, Books. Stop clapping.
So Booker. This is a I don't know. I've already gone over Booker's hatred of the happy birthday song before on the air. The uh the happy birthday song. So that noise you're hearing is Booker practices.
What he'll do is is he's like, if anybody comes to my house and sings the happy birthday song. No, but mace. He's like, I'm gonna mace them. Wait, are you trying to say that today is some kind of special day? No, no, no, no, no.
I just like I just like uh just thinking about it. So literally somebody's birthday. He'll pair up. No, no, no, it doesn't matter. He'll practice spray.
So watch this. So what uh what we used to do is we'd practice, I'd start singing and I'd see what his reaction time was just like off the bat. I'd be like, happy see that's how fast his reaction time is, which is why slow, dude. Which is why we don't let Booker to you. Happy birthday.
Yeah, you're really late. I was on my phone, it doesn't matter. Which is why we don't let Booker have bear spray. Uh because if Booker had bear spray, he would have used it by now. Uh yeah, yeah.
So uh Sas you cook anything interesting recently. Dave, anything? Anything interesting cooking adventures or food adventures recently? Uh nah, not really. No.
I've been practicing. I remember uh I think it was last week. I I was talking about the steamed cheese. Steamed cheese. I've been practicing with steamed cheese.
I have to say, like, I really like steamed cheese. I'm good. I'm super pro steamed cheese. So like you know, look at the sound of that phrase. Steamed cheese.
Yeah. Uh but uh what's what's weird is I'm trying to emulate the exact texture that we got. I got at uh Ted's in in Meriden, the steamed cheeseburger joint. Uh because I told you they use it for their version of a grilled cheese as a steamed cheese sandwich. And they also do steam cheese fries.
They basically steamed cheese is the stuff. The burger they steam because they kind of have to, because that's the Connecticut thing. But the real innovation people is the steamed cheese. So I'm working on it. I'm gonna buy maybe some cheese steamers.
I've been making my cheese steamers out of aluminum foil because I never have anything that's nice in my rice does. That's right. That's right. Speaking of, uh speaking of nice, I'm going up to Hallville next week to talk on Monday, which is of course a holiday. Harvard is so ruining your Harvard is so holiday.
Like Harvard is so like, I don't give a crap if it's a holiday. And we've got this peaceful hotel called the Sheraton Commander. It's only six floors high, and if you get a good position, you go to a lounge with free snacks. Yes, so it's it's called the club lounge. If they don't book us in the club lounge, which they never do.
New York, of course. But P.S. no offense, we call it the Sheraton, even though it's Sheraton at New York. I know, that's why I said it that way. Yes, I'm just letting people know because 99.9% of the people call it Sheraton.
Or the Sheraton. Yeah, would you rather live in the Sheraton Commander on the club level with the free snacks where the dogs can stay because it's a pet-friendly place, or right across the street from where George Washington took command of the troops, or would you rather live directly on the Bruckner Expressway? On the expressway. That's a hard that's an ex- Come on. Boston Sharotin Commander.
Whoa! Be quiet. Be quiet. You know why? It's because it's because they have a T there.
They have a subway that he's like it's his second favorite one. Anyways. No, the what about the path? No. Yeah, but that's that's basically just I mean, no offense, Jersey, but that's like like like glue stuck onto New York, right?
It's like if New York City wasn't here, you think they'd have a path train booker? No. But what's wrong with the place for George Washington? No, I'm just saying, it's like all history, steeped in history, blah, blah, blah. Nothing wrong with that.
So, anyway, so on Monday, which is uh which is it, Labor or Memorial? I always get them confused. Labor Day. Uh on Labor Day, Harold McGee and I are going to give a uh talk, a public lecture to which you are all invited at Harvard in Cambridge. This is a new stuff.
Well, for whom? It's it it's uh stuff I've never talked about before. It's called New Angle New Angles on Old Beverages. You like that? New angles old beverages.
So you know what I'm doing? I'm gonna talk a lot about Saratoga, Saratoga water. In fact, I'm going, because I'm gonna be having Saratoga water at the new bar. I'm going with some of the opening bar team tomorrow to Saratoga to get a bunch of uh Saratoga water to see whether or not it's stores properly in kegs for a month because we're assuming we're gonna need a month of Saratoga water. So we're gonna taste out Saratoga water, real Saratoga water, not that not that rain water in a blue bottle that everyone pays for that has a Saratoga label on it.
People, that is not the real Saratoga water. It comes from Saratoga, but it's really just rain water. Uh Stas and I, when we were up there last year in September, we were like, this is for this is for jackasses. Yeah, right? Yeah.
Uh we never got I never got to write the article because I was too slow, and Lucky Peach is now closed. But we have an entire article that I was supposed to write on Saratoga Springwater and why, you know, I'm interested in Saratoga Spring Water. So I'm gonna do a version of that. Plus, it's possible. I'll tweet it out if I get it.
I don't even want to mention what it is, but I might have the world's greatest water-related surprise at the Harvard lecture that you could possibly imagine. I'm not gonna say it because I know it maybe. I'll tell you off air because I don't even want to put in people's minds that they might be able to taste the stuff that I'm gonna try to get a hold of. I don't even want to put it as a seed in people's minds because if the if I did anyone who likes any sort of quality at all, anyone who has any sort of soul, anyone with a modicum of spark in their eyes would cancel their plans and go to the public lecture. If I got this, which I don't know if I would.
Are you gonna take the baths that we did? No, I don't have time. I'm just gonna go harvest, harvest the waters and go. So have we talked about it on air much? Just a little bit, right?
The Saratoga water. The original Saratoga waters were kind of medicinal waters, which no, but they're very highly, let's say, uh taste, they have a very high taste to them. Egggy. Some of them are eggy, sulfur-y, right, and some of them, but that flashes off pretty quickly. A lot of them are carbonated from the ground, which is why we were interested in them in the first place, because both Nastasia and I believe that uh God wants you to drink water with bubbles in it, right?
Whereas Booker only drinks flat water because he is an enemy of quality, right, Booker? Booker, are you are you an enemy of quality? I don't know. No. Well, are you uh are you getting better about being picky or no?
No. No, no, you're not getting better about being picky. Last week, uh, didn't you mention last week he's back on chicken now? On bacon, I heard. No, no, no.
He he he he's not back on bacon yet, back on chicken. Red meat. So red meat on baby steps. Also, I found out if you're a parent, uh, you should probably not do kind of what I do. So, like I constantly mangle phrases.
You you know me, Stas. I constantly mangle phrases. So I realized like uh a couple of weeks ago that Booker only knows the mangled versions of the phrases, and so he uses only the mangled versions of the phrases. Like what? Well, then I also found out I saw the show The Tick yesterday, and the tick used a ver a similar variant of a mangled phrase that I used on the TV.
My version is we'll burn that bridge when we get there. When we come to it, we'll burn that, which is of course not exactly what you're not supposed to do. First of all, you're not supposed to burn your bridges at all. And we don't even get to cross the bridge because we burn it like when we get there before we cross it. We'll burn that bridge when we when we come to it.
And so the tick used a variant of that, which I was appreciated, kind of, you know, because I think that's what the phrase should be. Because it's really like you never get to win. The other one I like to say is find a penny. I told you this. Find a penny, pick it up.
This is what Dax says all the time. Find a penny, pick it up. All that day, your luck will suck. Find a penny, let it lay. Your good luck will last all day.
Yeah, and I just have because who the hell wants to pick up the damn penny, right? So instead, it Dax is like, whoa, Penny, I didn't pick it up. Woo! So uh anyway, so like I use I mangle all sorts of phrases like that, but I realized you probably shouldn't do that when you have kids. Oh Penny, can we get to the guy from last week that I said was middle-aged?
Oh, Penny is one center. We already answered his question. I know. So what do you mean get to him? He already answered his question.
But we didn't answer the question. You said you don't know that he's middle aged, and then he wrote in to me and said, just turned 38. So middle-aged man is right. Thanks, Chip. Yeah, but what does that have to do with anything?
That you happen to be right. Doesn't mean you are in general. But what about what about Dito who wrote in who's a who's a woman? I know. But did you see the disgusting thing she said?
Don't you think? Which I appreciate. Supposed to prove that you're just wrong. Leaf. Nastasia, which we'll get to the leaf fungus in a s in a second, but Nastasia suffers from the same problem that afflicts all of everything I see on the TV nowadays, which is you choose one specific and then say, see, it proves the general incorrect thing that I say.
The majority of our family. You have not shown me any majority. Like the thing is, is like it may be true or may not be true, but you take individual examples of things. This whoa whoa. This also happens in cooking.
People take individual examples of things and falsely generalize constantly. That's con this is what people constantly this is how people get everything wrong all the time. False generalizations based on one or two specifics.com with your age and your marital status. Thank you. What is a marital status have to do anything?
Because most of our You care about gender. What do you care about marital status? Because they're mostly married whose wives won't let them buy the kitchen equipment. I hate your characterization of our listeners. Please write in the air.
Speaking of which, you want to take a call? Yes. Caller you're on the air. Oh, okay. Yeah.
Also, may I say this one thing before you start? Nastasia's point is also self-proving. Please what she is saying is please write in if you fall in the demographic. Yes, or that is just human nature. Or whatever.
Human nature. Whatever you are. Right, sorry, question. Question caller, caller you're on the air. For the record, I'm 29 and I'm married.
29? 29, not middle aged stas. Okay. Yeah. Louis from Florida.call in again.
How's it going? I'm going all right. How's Florida? Really, really wet right now. It's been raining for the last four days, which is something good, I would say, instead of the pot.
Right, right. Well, it's good good for you guys, not so good for the guys west of you. Anyway, what do you what do you got going on? Oh, well, um, I was actually had a question about the spincil. I ordered one, still waiting on it.
But my question is, are you able to clarify beer? So I have done some tests in um, I have done some tests uh of beer, uh actually not beer, I did cider, and then uh I did some tests spinning yeast out of beer, and it was successful. Uh the issue with it is obviously um because you're shooting it out of the um out of the spinzall when you're doing it, it tends to um it tends to throw some oxygen into it at a point usually in the beer making process when you don't want to have oxygen in it. So, uh right, because it's at the end when you're doing it. And so generally at that point you're not really wanting to uh oxygenate it uh somewhat.
Um but the um what I would say is is when I did it with cider, I also did it at a point where you don't want to add oxygen to it at the end. And so what I did was is after I clarified it, I um I hit it with some CO2. I carbonated it to flash off the oxygen real quick and to protect it. So I had to do an extra um, you know, post post um filtration step that you wouldn't have to do if you were, let's say, uh like Krausning or natural decarbonating or something like this. Um so that's that's kind of my only caveat.
Now what I was thinking obviously is if you were gonna do it a lot, I would just like put CO, I would just like uh put a line, turn it on, and bleed CO2 into the into the chamber uh as it was going uh through the top, and like then I feel that you know you probably wouldn't have an oxygen problem, but you'd have to run some tests. So the answer is yes, it works. Also, I mean, uh what I would do it for, frankly, is I would use normal racking for 99% of what you're doing, unless your beer is extremely cloudy, and then I would use it for recovery off the stuff at the bottom just to increase your yield. Because otherwise, you know, to really get a super super clear result, you're gonna be talking like fairly slow rates, like 80, maybe 100 mils a minute. And so, like over a you know, a five-gallon batch, you'd be kind of be talking on uh a lot of time.
It'll work. You don't you don't need to attend it because you know, unless you're actually filling up the rotor with gunk, you know, you're not gonna have to like change it a lot, but it is just a lot of kind of physical time. So those are kind of the caveats I'd I'd put in place. But yeah, I've tested it with cider and small tests with beer. Perfect.
And I have another question. Uh-huh. Um, I was listening to you earlier in one of them you talk about uh starch enzyme breaker. Uh-huh. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that?
Sure. Uh so I'm trying to remember, I didn't uh write down the ones that I was using, but they're also made by uh Novozymes um and distributed by Guzmer, who's the ones that do it here now. Uh Monitor's Pantry got me some samples, but and hopefully someday they're gonna carry them. The ones that I used were one called termil, uh, and I used another one called uh San Clear, and I forget what the designation of it. And there's another one I think was called super like super san or super clear.
And that there's basically there's two, there's two or three different enzyme types that are used in uh distillation for starch breakdown. And the the one, uh one of them is used kind of during what's called the uh like during the cook process, and it's to make the the starch slurry uh thinner, right? Because it's a lot easier to get to everything if you break up the stuff and the star starch slurry is not so uh thick. And so uh, and I believe that one is I believe that's the termil that does that one. And then after that, they use a sacrification enzyme, which is I believe the the sand.
But again, it I'd have to go back and look at the look at the data on their things. Now, when I'm doing it, because I'm not doing a two-step process, uh, what I would do instead is I just did things like cook a sweet potato, steam or roast it, or cook a potato, steam or roast it. Same with anything, or like uh a banana that had excess starch in it, and you take the leftovers, you cook it, and then you you I would let it cool and I would hit it with a mixture of all the enzymes at once, uh, and then just let it sit uh long enough to get to get it to go just to see if that was a reasonable procedure. And I was able to get pretty good results. That's sweet, the sweet potato paste was just crazy.
I didn't really actually like regular potatoes converted into a sweet paste as much as I kind of thought I would. Um but it's really good for that. It's also it was good at knocking excess starch out of corn, um excess starch out of uh I didn't try it very much on, for instance, one of the problems like I haven't really done a lot of testing with starchy bananas to see whether I could knock the starch out of them because they don't really have enough flavor for me to make to make it worthwhile. Ditto with starchy apples, usually starchy apple like isn't ripe yet, it doesn't have like uh full flavor development, so you wouldn't really want to be clarifying a starchy apple. Like I was focusing on things more that had starch that you know that you'd want to um you know that that uh even at maximum flavor potential point have starch in them, you know what I mean?
Yeah, I know. Understand. Yeah. Perfect. All righty.
Speaking of spinzalls, uh, we sent an update yesterday. I don't know what it is, Doz. I got a bunch of people on Twitter saying that they didn't receive the email update. I don't know what it is, but I had them all email modernist pantry. If you haven't also checked their spam sometimes, they all said that they did.
Sometimes they give an email address that they don't use anymore when they bought the spinzall. Well, okay, well, rather than blaming the customer, I'm just saying if you haven't received it, email modernist pantry and let's figure out why you didn't receive the update. Right. Where do they email Modernist Pantry? Uh well, you want to say what the preferable email is?
I think it's just info at modernist pantry.com. Info at modernist pantry.com. Okay. And then say regarding the kind of spinzall. Then uh they built all the the update was they built all the units, but um, you know, our guy Chris in China wasn't happy with the QC on it.
Uh and they had two they basically they they put rotors in that weren't at our spec for balance. And so we had to re they literally unboxed every single uh unit and tested them and divided them into piles of ones where they had to rebalance the rotors and not and it's looking like uh we are going to be okay for everyone who is pre-ordered to ship this week. I'm gonna send out an update uh later um later this afternoon or possibly tomorrow when I verify the exact numbers. But it looks like we're actually okay to ship all the pre-orders um this week. We the the all the additional ones that we ordered are probably gonna be postponed for a while while they rebalance the rotors.
But anyway, so that's the uh spin's all update. Hey, uh before we take another call, do you want to hear some of the demographic information the chat room is reporting? Yes. All right, we got 30 married, and my wife doesn't allow me to have a pressure cooker. Uh 33 married, two kids.
Uh 41 single, and I buy all the stupid kitchen equipment I want. Nice. But the what's the no gender, just just single. There's no gender in any. This is all male.
This is all male. What? All right. Uh very upsetting. I love men.
There's one more. There's one more. This is like I'm like a reverse Trump. I love men. But like uh go on, David.
48 married, two kids, one dog. Nice. That's all we got so far. Keep it coming, Chatry. I'm gonna say what if you got the and that that person just uh added, I have an expensive fistler pressure cooker.
Don't tell my wife how much it cost. Didn't tell my wife how much it cost. Saying you already have the one dog, just get the second dog. Just get the second dog, anyway. Uh women, women of the world, please.
Yeah, call. Call or you're on the air. Uh-huh. Hey, how you doing? All right.
Uh my name is Quinn. I'm from Canada should I uh enter my demographic information too yeah I don't know no uh all right fine yeah what do you got uh 24 male and is a desperately single an option all right what do you what do you got for us okay so my question is uh I've set myself a bit of an impossible task so I'm making food for people who are on the keto diet so that's basically no starch no sugar or almost no starch no sugar all right so keto being K-E-T-O and not the not the uh the the Andean capital high up in the mountains yeah yeah I would much prefer to be on a keto diet only eating foods that are grown high in the Andes that would be an awesome diet but anyway go ahead yeah not my thing but uh you know I'm cooking for people yeah so uh my goal is to make an extruded pasta okay with with no starch basically no starch yeah so my initial plans are basically roasted slash dehydrated cauliflower probably a lot of egg powder and then maybe some flax or chia to sort of reinforce it just to really blow it through their colons uh okay the uh hey booker, what what do you think about cauliflower? It's disgusting. I actually love cauliflower. But can I can I I okay.
I don't know how that mélange is going to work on extrusion, but can I can I push you in a different direction for a minute? Me? No, not you, Booker. Caller. Can I push you in a different direction for a minute?
Okay, look. Sure. Are these are these folks vegetarians? No. Okay.
Uh do you have any uh any fish allergies or or shrimp allergies in in this group? Nothing at all. Okay. Wiley Dufrein, went like way back in the day, um way back in the day, so I'm gonna want to say like two thousand and two or two thousand and three or something like this, in the early days of uh using transglutaminase, meat glue, the enzyme that makes meat stick together, came up with what I think is one of the greatest uh meat glue uh which available also in Mono's pantry, not to not to you know push the chill for them, but you know, too much. But they uh you take the transglutaminase powder and you you basically you you robo coo or blend or process whatever you want.
Shrimp is what he used, um, enough you know, salt to make it taste good, and then about a percent, one percent of um transglutaminase and then enough liquid to make it pumpable. And then he extruded it directly into uh water, hot water. I think he was doing he might have been doing fifty-seven or he might have been going as high as sixty C. I don't remember. Uh and then at that temperature the um enzyme immediately sets the shrimp into a pasta.
And it has the because you salt it, the and and because it's finely uh blended together, it actually has tooth like a pasta. And it's it's great. Works great. Um it works fantastic and so that's a shrimp pasta the other pasta also that wiley dufrain came up with and this is the other one I'd recommend if they don't want to go it's not strictly vegetarian because it's obviously because it's got gelatin in it but he used to make vegetable pastas by um and you'd have to look up the recipe's been published on the internet a couple times but it's it's a little bit finicky you got to work on it a little bit um but he mixes gelatin and he he does the whatever makes the puree that he's gonna uh turn into a pasta and then he mixes uh gelatin you know he'll he'll um uh put the gelatin in water dissolve it mixing transglutaminase to it uh I think he was using the straight stuff the T I but I can't remember uh he says my memory is he said it works with RM which is the one with casein in it but it really doesn't need the T I which is the straight stuff so you you mix the gelatin and what happens is is the transglutaminase cross-links the gelatin and when you cross link gelatin it no longer melts so once you spread it out on a sheet let it set overnight overnight you let it set overnight then you can cut it into noodles like whatever you want fettuccine tagatelli whatever you want how you actually pronounce that cut it into those things and it doesn't break anymore it sets into a pasta also with a nice texture. So those are the two both things I would recommend for these kind of completely non-starch.
Now gluten free pasta not a problem but no starch at all I would recommend um I recommend going the transglutaminase route uh either with a directly with a protein like shrimp, which is the classic one that Wiley did, or with Wiley's um uh uh gelatin vegetable noodles. They're awesome. Yeah, my my backup plan, well, the ultimate backup plan is again a ribbon style noodle. Because I mean I can make that in my sweet. Because I mean maybe we're just you try which egg yolks, you spread it in, you set it, you cut it, you're done.
Right, I forgot extrusion, extrusion. But the the shrimp noodle ones you can definitely extrude and they're pretty good. I would try certain mushrooms and maybe some like milk powder and my egg powder would add enough protein content and maybe some gelatin. Well the meat is yeah, the main structure of uh mushrooms is I believe kitosan, uh or you know, chitin rather, I think. Yeah.
Uh and so I don't think they'll glue together. I mean, obviously they provide kind of a a kind of a meaty texture. I've never tried to make a pasta. Basically, you need to hold it together with some sort of protein that you can set, right? So you're already on the path.
It's either like eggs. If you were gonna add flax, you're basically adding that just to snot it up so that it holds itself together while you're setting with the protein. It's not gonna permanently set it, right? Uh another quick question. Uh-huh.
If I if I do a first attempt with just the egg powder, should I extrude right into some hot water? Uh I don't know. I've never done it. So it's hard for me to say. Uh I would um I mean try it.
I mean the the thing is it doesn't hurt to try it because when you're putting it through your machine, you can just put some directly into water and some not and see what happens. I'd be hesitant to say I have a recommendation just because I have no idea how it's gonna behave. Yeah, I know. Yeah. I just thought I'd see what was what was possible.
Yeah, but uh but look up why look up Wiley's shrimp noodles and give it a give them a shot. I think you're gonna be pleasantly surprised, and so will your keto friends. Yeah just like I'll pay shipping to Canada from Laurent. You should not get them to kill a Canadian distributor. No they they send them yeah they send to Canada but I don't know how it works.
Yeah but you have to pay customs and stuff. Yeah well I don't know I mean maybe um activa which is a Ginamoto they probably have a Canadian uh distributor but the problem is is that when you buy directly from them you have to buy in kilo units uh it's also available in stores uh here so Wiley who is you know Wiley and Nils Noran were the two kind of first chefs who were using meat glue here in in uh you know bet down you know in this area in the States uh and Wiley's they sell it now at Calustian's which is a store you know here in in Manhattan but they sell it in like they sell it at room temperature repackaged in plastic bags and while every time Wiley goes in he feels compelled to go tell them that he disagrees with this way of storing it but whatever we can do what are you gonna do. Anyway anyway good luck let uh tweet on tweet me back on cooking issues let me know how it works maybe if I have some ideas they'll call back. Yeah and tweet tweet me on cooking issues let me know uh how it works out. Uh all right you want to get some uh some questions here I don't think want some do some questions can we do some questions right dude yeah we got one more call if you want to take all right call you're on the air hey Dave how you doing doing well good um so I'm 24 I'm a male and I'm trying to convince my significant other to buy a spinz all nice um getting there um anyway I have two questions for you.
Um one, I tweeted to you a while back about uh trying to keep my pork terrine from oxidizing, and you had mentioned vitamin E. Yep. Um do you have any specific resource for that, or is that as simple as just like going to a like a supplement store and just getting vitamin E? Okay, so the answer is yes. I do not have a specific uh source.
It's just like that's typically so if you see like vitamin E or tocopherol on a label that's added as an antioxidant, like that's for oil, and I know commercial oils are doped with that to keep them from uh oxidizing, but I don't have a source. I would just go, yeah, buy some pills and then like blend them up, you know what I mean, and see kind of uh see kind of what happens. But you know, you know, back when um you know I was at the FCI and I could do this kind of crap every day, I would just tell someone and be like, blend these two things and then we'll let them sit a week and see what goes on. But like I haven't been able to run those kind of tests in in a in a while, but that's what I would do. But I wouldn't ever rely on just uh, you know, oh this seems like it's okay.
I would definitely do an A B test. You know what I mean? Sure. Yeah, but I would just try that. Unless someone in the chat room maybe has a source, Dave, if you can uh put that out to them, see what they had to say.
Chattering? Yeah, yeah. All right. Okay, all right. I'll definitely give that a try.
All right, cool. And if you if you find anything out, remember to tweet me back so that uh I know what's going on, alrighty? Yeah, absolutely. Um more quick question for you, actually. Sure.
Um I've been doing a little bit of research on cocktails and specifically, or excuse me, specifically, um uh gin martini, and I've heard somewhere along the lines, I think it's an old wise tale, about um not shaking the martini. You're supposed to stir it as to not quote unquote bruise the gin. Uh-huh. Um is there any kind of science behind that, or is it just a wise sale? By the way, is it wise with an S or wives with a V?
It's wives. Wives, not wise. It's not an old tale that is wise. It is a win. It's a tale told by old wives.
Yes. Really? Yep. All right. Um, so uh Hashtag feminism.
Uh so to answer your question, and this actually, while we're doing this, there this goes right into uh the next question. So I'm gonna answer your question, but I'm also gonna read this question from uh John uh Vavrushko about uh about the very similar thing. So you're gonna hear me read this question and then I will answer both of them at the same time. Uh I've been reading your book. Uh I have a complex question.
I'm not sure it will yield anything useful, but it's been driving me crazy, and maybe it's dumb. Uh this is from John. Um I want to figure out what the relationship of trace oils and certain spirits, absinthe, gin, whiskey, is to the difference of uh shaking and stirring them. Does it have something to do with why whiskey becomes cloudy when it's shaken? Is it related to the Luching effect, absinthe experiences?
I've heard a uh uh a term along the lines of spontaneous emulsion, but I really uh don't know much about it. I know you're busy and your email is flying off the hinges, but thanks, regard John. So maybe I was supposed to email it back. You know, people, you know if you have a question, I'm not gonna email you back. Yeah, but I mean, all right.
Well, this is the venue in which I answer questions. Anyway, so now let me answer both questions. Uh should you shake your gin martini? And by the way, by the way, in my world, you have to say vodka martini. But if you say martini, it is Nastasia?
Right. Even Booker, Booker, do you know what's in a martini? He's not even listening to me anymore. He's playing Fruit Ninja. No?
Anyway. Dave, you're with me on this, right? Uh yeah, sure. Yeah. So it's But how many people would get upset when they ask for a martini and then they're surprised when it's Jin.
I think a lot of people would. Yeah. What? Yeah. What?
Yeah. What? Yeah. What? Yeah.
What? I think I think society is conditioned to the vodka martini. Mm-hmm. For sure. I think if you want a Varca Martini, you have to say vodka Martini.
I look, I don't like people. I think you're right technically, but I shouldn't be able to do it. I don't like people to get confused. So at the bar, we would always well at the bar you write Martini and then you write under it gin so that people know what they're getting. You know what I mean?
But yeah, I mean I would always tell people what they're getting just because it's you don't want people to be surprised. You know what I'm saying? Uh the world really is falling to pieces, isn't it? Um so the which by the way. The world is a vampire.
Are you familiar with Peter Tosh? Anyway, do you know that song? Uh Vampire. Anyway, the um not his best work. It was the album that came out right before he died.
Uh what was that album called? I think it was called No Nuclear War. And uh I that's the album at which so I I had been listening to a lot of uh like the Wailers and Bob Marley, and I had just gotten into Peter Tosh as his own person. I bought that album, and then he got he got basically murdered right before he was about to go on tour for it, and then now I was gonna see him. Do you have tickets?
No, no, he hadn't gone on tour yet. I I like, but I I'll like I always miss people like that. You know what I mean? Like I'd obviously missed Marley because he had been dead by the time I was listening to him, but then Tosh, I had an opportunity and didn't. So, people, you should go see the people you want to see now while they're still alive.
You know what I'm saying? No. Oh, like Billy Joel. Like you're not like you're not gonna go see Billy Joel. Destasia is never gonna see Billy Joel alive in concert because Nastasia had tickets to see Billy Joel alive in concert, and instead was at a stupid event with me.
That by the way, she try every once in a while she tries to blame me for making her be at that event, and then she's like, you know what? No, it was my fault. You didn't know there was a concert. I didn't tell you, I forgot. Then literally, like, as we were packing up, she's like, I was supposed to be a Billy Joel concert tonight.
And even though Billy Joel is one of Nastasia's favorites, you're not a Neil Diamond fan like I am, though, right? I if there was one song I could eradicate from Earth, it would be Sweet Caroline. It's a good song, crap on you. Uh I'm with you, Nastasia. Why?
Thank you. Why? Because of all the little inserts that people do. It's a good song. What about Crackland Rose?
Yeah, yeah, all the rest are fine. That would that would be one song I would eradicate, even more than Pretty Woman. You have something against the Roy Orbison song Pretty Woman? Kind of. Okay.
Oh, Love Roy Orbison, though. Yeah, I have some great Roy Orbison stories. Uh but the uh when you guys would hang back in the day? No, but a friend of mine hung out with him and has what might be the best story of all times. But uh not for all.
But the uh what are we talking about? We're talking about wait, oh Billy Joel. So actually, we're talking about cocktail. Billy Joel via Martini, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
So, like, so so Nastasia refuses to go see Billy Joel. I offered to get her tickets once, and she was like, No, I don't deserve it. I will never see Billy Joel in concert. Oh, don't be so hard on yourself. I'd be hard on another person doing the same stupid thing.
What was the game they used to play at MTV, Nastasia? Would you rather be uh Billy Joel or um what's his name? Ugly Man. Which one? Uh Tom Petty.
Yeah. And what's it and some of the things no one would ever be Billy Joel. Really? Yeah. They'd rather go petty?
Yeah. What about you, Dave? Yeah, Petty. Wow. What about you, Dave?
I mean, I like Tom Petty, but I mean, Billy Joel, I think is I mean, like, I I I don't care like what I look like. I mean, you're Billy freaking Joel. We'd rather be Billy Joel. That means you have to play the garden every month. Oh, yeah, that's so terrible.
And like, but my point is that. Sounds like a drag. Look, Billy Joel came up with more good songs than almost anybody you can, even if you don't like him, you have to say that he's come up with more good songs than most people could dream of coming up with. You know, how could you not like, I mean, like, I like Tom Petty. You know, running down a dream, full moon fever, the heartbreakers, all good.
But I mean, Billy Joel, like album after album after album, and then people give him crap for not coming out with anything for the last 20 pictures. He's like an albums guy, like he has his albums stand as artistic works. I'm gonna tell you this, he has more albums than I have. So you would rather look like Billy Joel. Oh, the question is look like?
Yeah. I'd rather look like Tom Pellet. Oh, just look like oh, I thought the looking like Tom Petty was just supposed to discourage you from picking Tom Petty. Yeah. What about Tom Petty or Rico Cassick?
Okay, back to back back to cocktails, back to so so so anyway, so uh with a martini, there's with any sh with any cocktail like this, when someone says bruising, right? It is somewhat confusing with the idea of looshing, right? So in a loosing situation, something with absinthe, what's happening is there is uh uh uh an oil in it, an essential oil, that is um anisole, I believe it is, I forget the name of it exactly, but it's in um it's in the absinthe, and at the high alcohol that absinthe is uh bottled at, it is soluble. And because it is soluble, it's clear. When you add water to it, it very quickly shifts into a place where it is no longer uh soluble in that anymore.
The water content goes too high. And at immediately at that point, it drops out of solution, but it does so uh in such a way that the the actual um uh bits of oil are so tiny that they form a spontaneous emulsion, and it it stays uh emulsified for a while. After a while it will settle out uh if you let it sit for a long time. If you let something loosh, and then you either heat it, like with a red hot poker, or you because I've done it, or you let it sit for a long time, the loosing effect will go away. But that that's what uh looshing is.
When you shake a drink, uh you get swirly things in it, but really what that is is just uh bands of different dilution when that when it's not mixed, aeration, and a lot of other shaking secondary effects that aren't really don't have really have anything to do with solution. So if you shake a uh something and it's turbulent, cloudy, and you can see the aeration, it doesn't look 100% clear, and you let it sit on your uh bar top for a mere couple of minutes, it will actually um go clear again. So, in order to make the the the things like whisk in whiskey, like all of the wood uh, you know, the polyphenols and whatnot from the wood, in order to drop those things out of solution and actually have it go cloudy, you need to remove uh a lot of liquid. So if you're distill redistilling an aged uh liquid, once you get all the alcohol out and some of the water, it'll at one point go bang, it'll go opaque and you won't be able to see through it anymore. And that's because you've um uh oversaturated the remaining liquid with you know the wood solids that have been um absorbed into it.
But you won't get that from shaking. But uh where that where this all uh fits together, people uh what they say is bruising is a is a bad visual phenomenon, but in reality, shaking a martini is a bad idea because it's just too diluted, right? So, unless you're going to shake it for just a small amount, well, you you want your martini to be clear, crystal crystal clear. So, in order to do that, you want as little agitation as possible. So, if you actually want an overwatered martini, right, what you should just do is stir it longer so that it still uh looks good.
Alternatively, you could just add ice water to it. A classic stirred martini is only gonna get down to about zero degrees Celsius, maybe minus one, minus minus two at the most. If you shake it, it'll get down probably to about minus four minus five Celsius uh and be consequently more uh diluted. Now, uh if you're having a vodka martini, odds are maybe you want it over chilled because it doesn't have any oak problems, and really you're just trying to slam hard liquor as fast as you possibly can. In that case, you should just water it down to whatever uh uh amount you want to water it down to, and then throw it in the freezer and then chill it down to whatever low temperature allows you to slam back the alcohol at the fastest rate humanly possible, because it seems to me that is why you have a vodka martini.
Is that incorrect, Mr. Right? Anyway, I hope that answers that question. Um via Billy Joel. Uh we have uh another uh You want to take a quick break?
Uh we'll take a break, we'll be right back with more cooking issues. This episode is brought to you by Castor and Pollox, maker of America's number one organic pet food, organics. You put a lot of care and thought into what you eat. After all, you're a food radio listener. That thoughtfulness goes hand in paw with how you feed your pets.
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Purposeful pet food. Learn more at heritageradio network.org/slash pets. It's three minutes off. And we are back. Uh so let's get into uh proof that we actually have some women writing into the show.
Do we have any more demographics, David? No, everybody's quiet. Yeah, all right. Alright. Although I did get a recommendation for getting vitamin E from Amazon.
Go figure. And they've used it for cooking? Sounds like it. Alright, well, check out the chat room on that. So uh Dito, spelled like the musician Dido, but pronounced Dito, who is a woman, writes in.
Right. Nastasi's like, I'm not even gonna do it. Is it the musician? It is not the musician because the musician's name is Dido. This person's name is Dito, spelled Dido.
Maybe she's covering up her really identity. Yeah, that'd be a that'd be a slick cover. That'd be freaking amazing. I like that stuff. Do you like that stuff, Sus?
No. Why? I don't like it. Why? Sad.
Sad smiles. You like sad things. No, I don't. You like angry things. Yeah.
Yeah. Uh okay. Coming from Amsterdam and a real foodie at uh at heart and soul, I decided to move to Spain and follow my dream to become a winemaker. Currently I'm working in a vineyard in Spain starting harvest tomorrow. I'm enjoying your show uh every day as I make my way through the back catalog.
I could not help but notice Nastasia's hate for leaf viruses, something I encounter on a weekly basis. So for you to enjoy Nastasia's leafy face, and she so uh Dito sent uh pictures of Dave. You've seen him those leaves with those growths, those like tumorous growths that pop out that look like columns of tumors coming out of the tops of leaves. Uh no. What?
Look up leaf virus on your Google. Anyway, so this is a uh a mite bud disease called uh Aranosi, kind of harmless, but it indeed looks disgusting. So in the US, uh it's uh it's called uh Arenaum mite, a grape Araneumite, which uh there's a bunch of different uh gene genuses and species, but the the family name is Areophyta, which is a family of more than, as is off Wikipedia, more than 200 genera of mites, which live as plant parasites, commonly causing gulls or other damage to the plant tissues, and are hence known as gull mites. And the one I think in the US is called Colomeris Vetus. And the get this does.
They are tiny microscopic mites and are yellow to pinkish white. The mites are worm-like and have only two pairs of legs. Their primary method is to spread by wind all over Nastasia's body on a wide range of plants. And has several major pest species causing substantial economic damages. I have chills.
Yeah. So they eat on the stuff as it's growing, I guess, and then like perturb how it grows, and that's why it grows into those weird shapes. Anyways. Dito also has some questions. Many people I talked to seem to proclaim that white refined sugar is the devil.
Why is this? And why is it bad for you? Is this the same hype used around fat and salt as health enemies and still is? Yes. So, yeah, I mean, this is my opinion.
This is my opinion. My opinion is, yeah, sugar is sugar, no matter how you get there. And yes, we add a lot more sugar to our diet than we used to, and that high level of sugar, you know, may be not healthy. We may not be designed to have that much sugar. I don't know.
I'm not an expert in that. What I am telling you is that if you're eating sugar, you're eating sugar. And whether that sugar comes from taking an entire orchard of pears and condensing it down into a cup so that you can pretend that you didn't add sugar to your fruit juice, to your cranberry juice, or as John Oliver so aptly puts it, bogberry. He is a funny guy. Have you ever seen that show?
John Oliver, fantastic show. I love that show. Fantastic show. Funny man. Uh, but the um.
So anyway, so sugar in any of its forms is is sugar. So that's why people are like, I don't eat sugar. I eat raisins. Raisin is like, is nature's like fruit sugar. It's crazy high in sugar.
So uh it might be true. The flip side of it might be true. There might be natural sweeteners, let's say honey, that do have other beneficial effects other than their sweetness that you do not get from refined sugar. This might be true. But to say that refined sugar itself is the devil, I think is just patently kind of anti-scientific and silly.
Now, it uh you might not like refined sugar because you might be against how it's produced. You might be against um uh labor practices, you might be against the state of Utah, which apparently Idaho and Utah used it, like the Mormons used to control the sugar beet manufacturer. You know that stuff? That was their thing of a jig. And did they like sugar?
Only beet sugar. Although many chefs, uh pastry chefs prefer cane sugar to beet sugar. Anyway, whatever. So there are some reasons you might not want to be uh part of uh sugar, and there are reasons probably to not have boatloads of it. Uh, but I don't think if you're going to use sugar, I don't think that by using uh, you know, brown sugar, even like naturally produced brown sugar like panella or um pilan chill or any one of these things.
I don't think any of that stuff's gonna save you from uh, you know, from anything that you're you know, versus white sugar. I think it's just it's just uh an absurdity. Uh two. I bought a big canister uh can bought a big canister of chantana. You know, I like to use the Spanish on it, but it's Xanthan.
See, this is why if you were in Spain, they you like Xanthan so much more than we do because chantana sounds cool, right? Sounds like something I want. Be like, ah, you know what? Sprinkle my sprinkle some chantana on that some on that some gun. You know what I mean?
Whereas like Xanthan gum sounds like some nasty business. You know what I'm saying? What do you think, Dave? What would you rather have sprinkled into your sauce? Chantana or Xanthan?
Chantana. Yeah, baby. Yeah. Which expires after December 2017. Is there really an expiration date on Xanthan gum?
No, no, no. There is not an expiration date on these things. When you're manufacturing a product, I know this from first hand experience. When you're manufacturing a product, you are obliged to put an expiration date on it. The Xanthan gum that you have, I mean, it's possible that some of it will break down in the absence of moisture uh over time, so it'll become less effective.
But uh, if you were to take that Xanthan gum and keep moisture out of it, right? So remember, if you put a silica packet into something, it's not food, don't eat it. Does anyone really try to eat those freaking silica packets, Stas that they write do not eat, not food all over? Maybe kids do. Booker, have you ever attempted to eat one of those packages that say do not eat?
No. Dave, you ever attempted to do that? Nope. No. Somebody has.
Um, so anyway, if you did that. Peter Cam screaming like a little girl. Yeah. Uh my phone, I forgot to turn off the thing. But if you did that, right, uh, and put it into the pyramids and waited another couple of thousand years and pulled that Xanthan gum out.
My prediction is it would still thicken your uh sauces into a snotty mess if you use too much of it. That's just my prediction. Uh question three Is there a way to keep Berna? Oh man. Is there a way to keep Bernays sauce stable for days?
I asked because I saw it at a butcher shop on display and it made me wonder. Thanks so much and best regards from a bloody hot Spain. Uh Dito. Uh so, and it says right here, Sas pronounce Dito, I'm a girl. Yep.
Yeah. I'm a girl, so she's like under 16. Okay, so another thing with Nastasia is that if Nastasia doesn't respect a woman, calls her a girl. Calls her a girl. I've seen her do it a million times.
I call each other girl. Yeah, but you it's like if you call yourself like, you know, girlfriends, I'm going out with the boys, that's one thing. But if you're like if you if you use it specifically to try to take away someone's authority by calling them a girl as opposed to a woman, I think it's wrong. And that's what you do. All right, we should get to the question.
She referred to herself. Anyway, so my point is uh so we asked this. I asked, uh I've never made one, so fundamentally a Bernays sauce is uh similar to a looser uh mayonnaise, i.e. um it's made with less oil than mayonnaise would be, and it's made with uh butter instead of with oil. So the problems are this that when it uh cools down, if the butter uh you know recrystallizes, it will could possibly break the emulsion.
Uh and two, because it has a higher water content, it might spoil bacteriologically, it might spoil, whereas mayonnaise, a properly made mayonnaise is actually, I mean, don't you know, take you know, but in as far as I've been able to tell, an actually proper mate, properly made mayonnaise after it cures for a while, is in fact shelf stable because it just doesn't have a high enough water activity, and the water that is there um it has enough uh acid in it to actually stop bacteria from growing, and so it is in fact shelf stable. It's basically awesome. Now, I put this question to two different people. Uh to I put this to uh Alex uh Talbot from Ideas and Food, and uh Alex said I said uh I uh posed this question and they said um um yes we made a reheatable recipe in our first book we keep it refrigerated and heat it to order and they use methyl cell uh F50 in it so check out his first book he sent me some pictures but I'm having trouble downloading because for some reason Heritage Radio doesn't want me to be able to use my phone or Wi-Fi they're trying to turn they Nastasia's phone keeps working but mine for some reason is not and I also uh texted Harold McGee and Harold McGee said there are no faux bernases out there made with mayo and no she said there are now can you just read there are faux berneses out there made with mayo and turmeric to make them look buttery but I think a real one will always break on rewarming after the butterfat has crystallized. Right so you have to do uh like a a faux version with uh like what I don't know whether Alex Nacke they also might supplement it with some oil so that it doesn't kind of uh recrystallize uh accurately wait Dave are you telling me that we're done to go no I'm telling you there is actually one more caller but real quick all right caller you're on the air hi Dave this is Jeffrey in Costa Mesa how you doing all right how are you all right um on the subject of sugar and cocktails um I want to get your take on brandied cherries so I have a recipe that I like in terms of flavor and the consistency of the syrup but I'm wondering about firming up or or keeping the cherries firm.
I have uh Novo shape and I have calcium hydroxide calcium light gluconate. Uh-huh and what what would your approach be? I wouldn't use the hydroxide I would use uh actually yeah I would use a small amount of calcium chloride, small. I I don't remember the percentages off hand, but you basically just need uh just enough kind of calcium present to help in the crosslinking. Um I've run So would you do a novo-shaped soak beforehand or how how would you incorporate that?
Yeah, so when they do the novo shape stuff, a lot of times because you're you're leaving uh stem on, yeah. Um I would run some tests, I did some tests soaking things that are easier to get liquids into, because the problem with a cherry is that the skin is relatively impervious, which is why it takes a while for the stuff to go in. And I think why some people might pull the stems, although my you know, my step uh, you know, great my step uh grandfather who you know had cherries that were 70 something years old, their family secret was to never remove the the stems when they're putting them into the alcohol. But yeah, I would do a pre-soak because I don't know what novo shapes uh reaction to um alcohol is. So I would do a uh a pre-soak, and I know that some of these guys will needle the fruit slightly and then vacuum the novo shape into it.
So they'll like do like a light needling uh and then they'll vacuum the novo shape. The idea is that breaking the skin normally would would hasten the breakdown, but because you're about to cross-link all the pectin, it's not a problem. And so then they would vacuum the novo shape into the fruit on a on a on a soak, and you could do that in juice so that you're not getting any of the flavor out, and then brandy the hell out of them. That's my recollection. I never got I can't taste cherries anymore, and so like I've I asked the bar every year, maybe at the new bar we'll actually get it uh done, but I've asked to run the protocol, and once I have the protocol, I'll definitely what's your demographic information?
Are you willing to share? Sure. I'm 33 and married. Uh my wife is fine with the equipment, and she'll listen to the show as long as Booker is on or Dax is on. And she would also love to have Jen on, so I know everybody would.
We'll get Jen on someday. You know, we'll get Jen on. I thought of you with the cherries because I was out the Broadale in England and got to taste some delicious cherries. How were they? How were they?
Amazing. Had some cordia from Czech Republic, some lapins, a bunch of plums. How big how what in other words, like were the sweets and the sours in at the same time? Say that again? Were the sweet cherries and the sour cherries in at the same time?
It seemed like mostly sweet that they had just harvested. Oh my god, those are God's fruit. They're so godly. I love cherries. Someday someday I will kick this evil allergy and I will be able to have cherries again, and I will just eat cherries.
Cherries, one of the very few things I have never, I have never had too many cherries. I've never been like, you know what I don't want another one of? A cherry. It's never happened. You know what I mean?
And never now, probably never will. Yeah, I couldn't keep up with the tour because I was just stuffing my face and getting a stomach ache and continuing on. Right. Those fools in England are like, look at the trees. Nastasi and I were like, who cares about the freaking tree?
That was fun until we got to the gift shop. What? That was a fun time until we got to the gift shop. What was wrong with the gift shop? You wouldn't stop talking.
They have no, I was talking to the lady about the apple juice she was making because that's our business. Nastasia doesn't care. Nastasi was like, you know what? I won't spend the extra five minutes to actually have this be useful. Oh, ten.
That wasn't ten. Nastasi will spend. I had a lunch once with this. Oh, worst lunch of my life. It doesn't matter.
We were given the opportunity to taste hundreds of varieties of a fruit. I'm not going to get into it. I don't want to call anyone out. Hundreds of varieties, right? And Nastasia can't be bothered to put up with an hour and a half of a crazy lunch so that we just to be freaking polite.
Just to be polite. It doesn't even matter. Who cares? If it was an hour and a half of getting beaten with cricket bats, who the hell cares? We were getting something we wanted, and so you're polite.
And she's wasted days of my life since those uh that hour and a half years ago, bringing it up again and again and again. Anyways, uh thanks for calling in. We skipped the gift shop. Yeah. Good.
Let us let me know how the cherries work. Tweet me on out. Uh okay, so uh I'm being kicked off, but Caleb's, I got your buckwheat crepe crepes uh on on notice. I have some answers for you, I think, uh more uh next week. Uh we already talked about uh the outdoor Komodo thing last week.
Scott, I still got to get your question on smoke. And I hope Julian has not gone to uh uh what's it called? Hawaii yet, because I have some recommendations for your my ties next week. Oh, not next week, I'll be in Harvard next week, week after cooking issues. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
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