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We're kicking off our fourth season and celebrating HRN's 10th anniversary with a very special episode about our home, Brooklyn. Roberta's was such an interesting place with such a strong gravitational pull and attracted all these different groups. The neighborhood has changed a lot over the past decade from its culinary renaissance to the complicated implications of gentrification. I would say the majority of the people who are members of our co-op definitely have a certain purchasing power, are mostly white, and we are trying to change that. We're taking you on a journey that spans the birthplace of food radio to buzzy neighborhood pollinators to the transformative health journey of our borough president.
That was my moment of, you know, wow, someone has thrown me a life raft, and I'm going to take it. Subscribe to Meet and Three. That's M E A T plus Sign T H R E E. Available wherever you listen to podcasts. Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues.
This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from actually fairly close. We were here fairly close, right, Matt? I I'm impressed. I've also never had the door open while you did that before. Wow.
That's you generate some serious volume. Oh yeah, man. That's the that's the whole thing. Like I told you, we tried to see whether we could go for a mellow, but you know, it just doesn't uh, you know, people don't like it. By the way, from Roberta's Pizzeria in Bushwick, Brrrr Brooklyn.
Joined uh with uh we got Matt in the booth. Nastasia Lopez is with me. She arrived with me on the subway train, but she is next door placing our uh order for lunch because as those of you may or may not know, uh our payment for do uh really I think she's here. Nastasia just comes in and in the middle of a sentence just throws the mic out of the way. Just project.
She doesn't like wait for the sentence to be over. Project. Uh yeah, so Nastasia, Nastasi, yeah. Nastasia uh and my payment for this is a pizza. Sheerjoy.
Sheer joy and a pizza, right, Nastasia? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So for those of you that want us to host a you know, 45-minute podcast, all it requires really is a pizza.
We're gonna podcast from a secret location in Los Angeles next week. We're gonna be in Los Angeles next week. And by secret, she means we have no idea where it's going to be. Why do you do that? Also, we rented a VW van uh at 84 or 83, can't remember.
Right, but it doesn't look like the old, it's like more of a modern, it's not like an old school peace bus, right? It's not like rounded. Yeah, it's 80, it's 84. But it has a full kitchen, and we're gonna show up at one lucky radio guest's uh radio listener's house and spin some stuff. What?
Yeah, what? Yeah, what? Yes. Wow. You know what?
Nastasia just makes this stuff up and I told you this, like three times. No, no. Yes, I did, Dave, and you said, okay, just tell me where to go. Uh it's not very rarely do I say that. It does not sound like me.
And I will say also that uh Nastasia will find some way to bow out. No way. I'm the driver. You're the driver. Oh, so the peace bus is coming.
Yeah, with the full kitchen and the two beds. Does it have an inverter in it? Is it like a is it like a rolling uh, you know, so you can plug uh can we plug a centerfuge in on the inside of the of the peace bus? Every year. I've never burned been to Burning Man.
There's a whole group of people. We have a friend, Jordana Rothman, who is she doesn't go anywhere. She was big on it. Like, so now it's just not my thing. I mean, why do you not want to go Nastasia?
I don't like the people. I don't think I'll like the people there. Preemptively. She preemptively doesn't like the people. That sounds about right.
What about you, Matt? You uh are you a burning man person? Uh nah. No. I don't I just don't care to go.
I don't like drugs either, so uh I'm pro drugs, but I just won't. Um we have a caller on the air with a with a question about Burning. All right, caller, you're on the air. Hey y'all, this is Devin. I was hoping to slip into questions with uh Booth Boy and uh cheap till it came back, but next time I guess.
All right, wasn't it? Um so I'm wondering, um I see sometimes advertisements. I I'm not a cook or anything, but uh for very high-end stoves and ranges that are used by restaurants. Right. Um I'm wondering outside of the ornateness and the customization, do they cook food any better?
Are there any special features compared to your Vikings and kind of things with that ilk? Uh so the main thing about you're paying for different things for right, right. So Maltini, I've never used Moltini's home rate. Moltinis, you're spending a lot of money on the name, and you're also spending they there's a lot of kind of enameling work. Uh, you know, I've never done a lot of cooking on on a multini.
We almost got one for um we almost got one for the lab at the French culinary years ago that wasn't really a lab you didn't even know me they were gonna build an entire lab on the fifth floor and they ran out of money midway through building it so the entire fifth floor was empty for like three years and then when they built it they built it as a student thing and they didn't build a lab anymore so thanks for you know just chinning in with something. Yeah no but they were gonna build a lab so the idea original idea was they were going to build a lab that chefs could come in and use all this new stuff kind of like an incubator food incubator before it's time but then they just ran out of cash and then they were like you know what we don't need to build this. You probably would still be there if they had built a lab so maybe it's for the best. I don't know but back to this question. So a lot of this you know you're they're not building very many of them they're custom and they have a lot of enamel work and they have a lot of fancy you know fancy stuff on it and chefs who have their high-end equipment they end up falling in love with it right so while so the two kind two of the high-end brands uh you know associated with like with French chefs Multene Bonet and you know Wiley was a Bonet guy he loved his Bonet it's a giant built-in thing now I've never I know that Multene I think did some home stuff but I think with that it's not that it's gonna necessarily cook any better no their burners are very nice uh like French tops are very nice uh but they're not going to they're not gonna make your steak any better um the issue really if you're just talking in general commercial versus not.
So sometimes you're paying for things like the name, you're paying for things like build quality. So, you know, a Multini uh or even any of the higher end commercial stuff is just made with a much thicker gau uh gauge of steel, and so it's just a lot tougher, can take a lot more uh you know, abuse than uh not that you would abuse it, but it can take a lot more than than ordinary uh things. But really, like a a professional, like a uh a low to mid-range professional thing, the difference between that and home is typically that there's just a much higher output on the professional one. The other thing that professional things tend to have is you have a like a rail in front. So when you're cooking professionally, uh, you know, at your range, you'll be you'll be using your burners, and then you'll have a rail in the front that you can either pull stuff up or you could put a six-pan up front and move around.
And so like that rail is very helpful. And I think most home stoves don't have that rail. Also, almost all professional stoves that I've used are designed to operate like a flat system. So the grates are such that pans can be slid uh off on around, like I said, up to the rail or off to the side very easily. Not all home things are like that.
Uh so what you're paying for can be a lot of stainless as opposed to if you're buying a stainless unit, which you know, most home units aren't, really good grates or spiders, whatever you're gonna call them, because they're gonna take a lot of abuse, uh, especially if you're paying extra to have steel uh steel grates or steel spiders as opposed to cast, because cast ones can break uh and they often do break, especially in commercial applications. And then you're paying for the uh or you getting in a professional uh stove the burner output. Now there's a lot of downsides to professional equipment as well. Typically they're standing pilot, so that uh they're always putting heat out. That's why you know I have a I you know, don't tell anyone, but I have a professional one at home, and what I do is I turn off all of the pilots, and then I light them with I torch light them when I'm gonna use them just because I don't want to have those pilot lights running all the time.
Uh commercial ovens also, you know, they have a running pilot in them and they the gas ones anyway, and they uh tend to work, they're much bigger, like you want to be able to fit a full sheet pan in, so a lot of home ovens can't fit a full sheet pan in. Uh but they're also not insulated very well, so they take a lot more energy in, and then they also shoot a lot more energy out into the kitchen, uh, which is one of the reasons why commercial ovens really aren't spec'd for home, and some places don't allow them anymore. But they don't have as good of insulation. They get a lot hotter both in the back and on the sides. Uh so you know, you can scorch cabinetry that's next to it if it's not uh you know put together right.
Also, commercial ovens tend to be um they don't have broilers in them. So most commercial ovens, at least the ones that I've used, the heating element is down underneath, uh, but there's no top heating element, so there's no broiler element. So again, like commercial ovens and commercial ranges are fantastic for what you use them for. I actually absolutely hate home ranges because I just can't stand not having the power when I want it. But that said, like modern induction uh home ranges can do an excellent job.
So, you know, so it's not always that you're just paying for you know stuff that you don't need, but also sometimes having uh home equipment's not so bad. Like a home oven, as long as my my stuff fits in it and it's got a convection function, I'm gonna be fine with home range. It would take me a lot. I I at the place that I have in Connecticut, although not much longer, the place I have in Connecticut, uh I have never once used the range just because it's it's worthless, it's weak. So I have induction hobs that I use and and it's gas too, it's just is terrible, it sucks.
Uh but I just don't use it because I hate it. A reason for the um reduced insulation on the commercial units? Oh, well, I just don't think they care. Uh you know, they're building the stuff out of like higher gauge uh stuff. It's assumed that you're gonna have the thing uh cranking.
And any time that you throw away energy, you're actually making things more stable. So uh, like for instance, old school espresso machines, this is a theory, like I've never spoken to one of their designers about it, but in an old school espresso machine, it's not uh insulated uh, you know, at all very well or at all, because the way one of the ways that they get stability with relatively bad temperature control is just having so much heat leakage that there's a relatively high constant heat input. And if you have a relatively high constant heat input, you tend not to and uh in in and out, you tend to uh even out the bumps in the road and you get it to be kind of more stable at a higher temperature, uh, because if you have something that's very well insulated, you take it up to a temperature and the thing shuttle you know turns off, then when you open it, you're counting on um you you have a lower thermal, you have a little lower thermal mass and and lower like constant heat input, so it it can drop uh faster, right? Because they're putting more energy in and losing more energy out. But that's just a theory.
Uh and I just also think that you know, the average designer doesn't care very much about uh professional cooks and whether or not they're sweating to death. And lastly, it's only been very fairly recently that uh, you know, places like Fisher Nickel and all these other have have rated the energy efficiency of uh commercial appliances. And I think most people would be shocked, shocked at the amount of uh energy that's consumed by commercial uh appliances, commercial refrigeration, commercial uh gas ovens, ranges. You know, I looked at a uh a combi oven once um that was being used uh in one of the Momofuku uh places years ago, and that single oven had twice as much power going into it. A single oven had twice as much power as my entire apartment.
The entire apartment. So it's like uh, and that was a combi oven. So combi ovens also regulate themselves by hurling energy off into the ether. That's how they regulate their, you know, the how do you make a you know, this you get the steam, but you want to regulate it, you just vent all the excess to the atmosphere. So there's just crazy waste of energy.
And you know, hopefully in the future, um, you know, energy efficiency, water efficiency has hit a lot of people, but energy efficiency hasn't really hit. Uh it's hit more in California, which is where Fisher Nickel is from. And so there's a lot of people over the past 10 years, just talking about 10-year problem, that past 10 years who have been focused on energy efficiency, especially for things like steamers, fryers. Um yeah, ovens have not, I don't think caught a pace to that. Anyway, uh good question.
Call in next time with your second question. Uh Nastasia is, you know, doing her I I've been told that I should allow her to do her hammer thing and not feel nervous about it. Yeah. That's great. Who told you that?
You other people too. I don't know. I don't know. So now, anyway. Okay, so uh Colin Gonzalez wrote in, thanks for answering my uh my butter searing question a few weeks ago.
I have a new request and a question. Dave, please talk about ranch dressing. Uh I like ranch dressing. I think everyone loves ranch dressing. Nastasia, what are your thoughts on ranch?
I like the package one with the that you have to use with sour cream more than the one that comes in the can in the jar. Pre-made. But wait, but why are you advocating for pre-made ranch at all? Because most people bring the pre-made to your house. No, but why would you I mean ranch dressing or ranch dressing analogs are incredibly easy to make?
Why wouldn't you just make it? With the package? No, no. Why do you require a package to make ranch dressing? She's saying other normal human beings who don't make all their food bring it to her.
I al I always use the package. How do you make ranch dressing on your own? What is ranch dressing? I'm not really very ranch, really. What?
I just I don't know. I'm not really a dressing guy. Oh. What about Cool Ranch Doritos? Pro all variations on Doritos.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They make some Doritos that are terrible. They make a Dorito that, I don't know, Dax liked it, but he opened it in the backseat of the car, and we thought someone had vomited in the backseat of the car. There are certain flavors that, if you're not eating them, smell repulsive. You know what I'm talking about, Nastasia?
Anyways. Have they done a Dorito flavor for every type of salad dressing? Is there a thousand island Dorito? Uh you know what I would like? I would like the blue cheese Dorito.
There you go. Blue cheese dress. By the way, I think, you know, Nastasia, you're also blue cheese dressing uh aficionado, no? Is it you? Who was it then?
Someone, maybe it was Jen. Like my wife. Like we were talking about. She should come on the show. She needs to come on the show.
But like. Has she ever been on the show? No. I know. No, it's like uh I think like half the people probably don't even believe that I have a wife.
I mean, yeah, myself included. You never met my wife? I I've heard a lot about her. I'm sure she exists, Dave. Don't worry about it.
She does exist. Um, but the uh so ranch, ranch, my son Dax, like ranch is the is the kind of the one thing that he used to learn how to make. And then if we don't have the ingredients for his version of ranch, then he just says, we don't have anything. I can't make any salad dressing. So in there are many different varieties of ranch, and I didn't actually look up the specifications before I came on.
But the basis of it is very simple. It's a mixture of mayonnaise and then sour cream and some people uh yogurt, right? Unflavored, unsweetened yogurt, right? So there I don't put yogurt in it. I'm more of a sour cream mayonnaise kind of a fellow.
So like that's the base is that. And then salt, pepper, some herb, uh, like usually you have to put an allium in it, like chive. And then uh I like in it dill. But honestly, if you want to go to a ranch alike, a ranch alloyed, a ranch similar thing, you can throw in any green herb. You can throw in possible, you could throw in cilantro, cilantro.
Pack it. Why the hell would I do that? Salt. The key also, everyone, a lot of people are anti-sugar. No, I don't like sugar.
Oh you know, there's sugar in the pack. Add some sugar, a little bit. You don't want to make it sweet. You want to balance out balance it out a little bit. And some people like to add more acidity.
You can add more acidity in the form of lemon, you can add more acidity in the form of vinegar. You don't have to add more acidity at all if you don't want. Um, and uh see, I don't think there's garlic in a standard ranch, but it doesn't hurt it. And I always uh to most of my dressings like to add a touch of uh mustard, but again, is it 100% necessary? No.
So anything in there, and you know, you blend it all in your food processor and you got ranch. Did I say salt and pepper? Yeah, all right, there you go. So, oh, and because Dax likes it, he always squeezes a little sriracha. Again, not supposed to be there, but you can do anything.
As long as you start with that cooling base of mayonnaise and sour cream, uh, with maybe yogurt if that's what your thing is. Um, then you could throw anything else in you want. You could add lemon juice if you want, you could add, you know, salt, pepper, an herb, usually chives, any alum really, and uh dill, and then everything else is up to grabs. And I think ranch is delicious. I think everyone should make their own ranch.
I don't even know why they sell packets. Why would you sell a packet? What do you add the packet to? Sour cream. Just sour cream, no mayonnaise?
Mistake. Straight sour cream, mistake. So good. Mistake. For a dip, maybe sour cream moment.
But if you were what if you were making it for dressing? I've never made it for adjusting. Okay. Uh, and two, I was recently watching Thomas Keller's masterclass. Uh he thinks we should do one of these master classes on cocktails.
I you know, he has those Thomas Keller has those uh those, what does he say on them? He says something incredibly weird on them, right? Like, what did he say? Have you seen the commercial for it and says? I gotta look it up.
Anyway, and he used, oh, he used tammies to make a potato puree, which he contrasted with regular mashed potatoes. He later makes a parsnip puree, and instead of using the Tammy, he simply Vitamixed it. He says that if you try to do the potato in the blender, all the starch would cause it to become gummy. What is it about high-speed blending that would cause this? Well, it ruptures the starch granules, and then it pastes out.
So Nils, who used to work with at the French Culinary Institute, used to add extra water to certain potatoes, blend them in the vita prep to make them gummy on purpose. He would make an on-purpose gummy potato puree, uh, and it was uh quite good. By the way, oh, and I finished mashed potatoes with an immersion blender before. It is is it likely that I was unknowingly eating gummy potatoes? Well, look, a couple things on mashed taters.
Uh I So, okay, so with a Tammy, a Tammy is a fantastic way to make mashed potatoes if you have another person doing it, right? So Thomas Keller is willing to do tammied mashed potatoes because he only has to do it once and then tell you that this is the way you should do it. But sitting there with a pastry scraper, scraping potatoes through a tammy over a bowl, then mixing the stuff into it, then cleaning out said tammy is a freaking nightmare. I hate it. So I hate doing it that way.
Do you like doing it that way, Nastasia? The good thing about it is that it forces you to cook the potatoes enough. The classic mistake people make with mashed potatoes is to like, I'm afraid I'm gonna overcook the potatoes. And so they undercook mashed potatoes. You cannot make mashed potatoes with undercooked potatoes.
The trick is to cook the bee to cook the bejesus out of them. Now you can either bake them, right, which I do, or you can boil them. People don't like to boil them because of the extras excess water in them, but if you dump them and then like keep them over a heat a heated area for a while open so that they flash off, most of the extra water is gonna go away and you're not actually gonna have soggy mashed potatoes. It's not really a problem. You can look at the potatoes and you can see them dry out on their own if you dump them in big enough chunks.
Anyway, so make sure you cook it enough. And then the question is you can tammy it, yay. If you blend it, it will go gummy. Uh food mills, I hate I hate food mills. I really hate them.
They're a bear to clean, they suck, they they keep use your term gumming up, right? So you have to reverse and go forward, reverse, go forward. Uh, by the time you finish it, your potatoes are cold because it's taking forever, unless you have one of the big commercial ones. JJ Basil, uh, you know, chef in here in New York, he went to his mom's house, and I think I got told the story on air. Went to his mom's house, she handed him a food mill, opened the front door of their house, and just threw the food mill into the street and then closed it, closed the door again.
I hate food mills. Um your immersion blender, as long as you don't overdo it, is not gonna be bad. Also, a paddle, if you do a little pre-mashing paddle in the uh Kitchenade is not gonna kill you. Uh the trick is if you just overdo it, it's gonna go, it's gonna go gummy on you. But I think people are worried about overdoing it and tend to underdo it, so there's still chunks of unmashed potato.
What are your thoughts on chunks of unmashed potato? Don't like. Don't don't like. Uh I bought an attachment for a um uh a dynamic uh hand blender, and that attachment is an is a powered like ricer on the end of a stick, and I have to say that thing is amazing. It's uh it's crazy to me that no one in America makes these because it actually works quite well, and I was getting ready to to hate on it.
I bought it for testing, thinking I was gonna completely hate on it, and I actually unfortunately ended up liking it. Anyway. Um, and I guess he's saying that either he wants the parsnips to be gummy, Thomas Keller, or he just doesn't find that the parsnips go gummy. What do you think about parsnips, Nastasia? Would you ever choose a parsnip?
No. Uh and then this question is for you, Nastasia. Have you heard of Modern Adventure? Basically, they get taste makers to lead cool trips. I almost went to one uh one on one to Vietnam led by Alice and Roman.
Here's a link, blah, blah, blah. To one in Republic of Georgia led by Bonnie and uh Is uh Israel Morales. Uh you should look into doing one. Uh I sent it to Rebecca and she thought that you wouldn't be organized enough or something. Well, he's asking you.
I would love to no, this is for you. No, it's for you. No. It says to air apparent. That is you.
Yeah, I know. So the thing is, is would you like I can make it happen. But would you like what would you do on it on a trip? This is You would have to plan the trip. Yeah.
This is for us to take people on the trip. Right, but so what you know he's with what would we do? Yeah what would how would how would you actually do in that environment? First of all, have you ever been on a tour? No.
I've never been on a tour either. Like no you would be leading the tour. But then that would require me to go to a place that where I was like a local and that would be New York. No you would be discovering this stuff for the first time. But then how do we know we're gonna discover good stuff.
It doesn't matter so fun. Okay. So it's like don't you think it'd be fun? Where would you want to go? I mean there's so many places I haven't been.
Why don't ooh what if we took everyone on a tour of the Leatherman's uh route. How boring would the tour is the ther tour is 34 days long. You may not shower you may not wear any machine made clothing your clothing must be made of leather boots sewed by hand and it must weigh 60 pounds. And we're sleeping in caves. Wait what what is the leather boot jeez come on man alright you know what never mind never mind never mind we have a there's a there's a caller who has a question about this caller on the air one question.
Uh hey Dave Nastasia uh my name's Chris I'm calling from Philly um I have a pasta question for you um so we've been making fresh pasta for a couple years now with uh primarily freshly milled flour. Uh it's not whole wheat. We're we're sifting off the bran. Um but we're finding that after a coup a couple days in the fridge, uh the pasta starts browning. Um and after doing some research online, um uh it seems like uh enzymatic browning is to blame for that.
And uh I I only have access to so many articles online. I keep I keep landing on this one website, uh Research Gate that that has a lot of articles that might be useful to me, but I can't really get to them. Um so I'm wondering if you have any suggestions on how we could combat that um uh in our pasta. And um, you know, we're trying to trying to keep the german, we're trying to to um highlight the flavor of these you know the these local wheats and and fresh grain. So is the browning uh so often with enzymatic browning there's gonna also be kind of characteristic flavor changes.
Is it are you getting that as well or no? Or does it taste okay just so it's not as saleable? No, it tastes it tastes as far as as far as we could tell, I mean tastes tastes uh the same on day six as it does on day one. Right. Um but it's just the color is off, so you can't sell it anymore.
Well, we can we can sell it, um, but we're learning that um uh our customers uh have a preference towards like lighter colored golden uh noodles. Uh and um, you know, once they try our product, they they love it, but it's it's just funny. Whenever we put a pasta that's like a traditional golden color next to something that's a little bit more brown, uh, you know, the one that's a traditional color uh always sells out first. Yeah, I know. Aren't people the worst?
Like in general. Um, so look, so I don't have any specific answers for you, I have to research it. But the what if do you know about the the website Sci Hub? No, I don't. All right, so we've mentioned this, uh someone sent it to me, a couple people sent it to me.
Sci hub, uh S C I dash H U B, and I think it's dot TW. It changes around. Uh S E. You what you do is you do your primary uh research, right? Like so you say like you you know, you haven't been able to get to the papers because you don't have access to them.
The good news is is that all of the all of the big search engines for uh academic stuff like El Sevier, who by the way I believe make most of their money in like you know, gun running. I just made I didn't make that up, but it's pretty close. Anyway, so they uh their databases are available online, and then when you search for the stuff, they have what's called uh a DOI, DOI number, right? So then you copy that number, the DOI number, and then you go to Sci Hub and you enter it, and then it gets you that paper for free. So uh yeah, so you can get anything, almost almost anything.
Awesome. Thank you. That's helpful. Yeah. Now what you it doesn't have like a lot of the books, and so you know, you're gonna want to, you know, get access to probably some of the, you know, pasta books.
And it's been a long time since I've read them, and most of those books are written from you know, not from the standpoint of someone who um you know someone who's doing it industrially, and so most of those people were like, Well, what you do is is you bleach and or age your flower. You know what I mean? Uh and that's obviously something you can't do. I wonder whether, you know, if Joel Gargano hears this uh you know from uh Grano Arso I know he makes all of his stuff uh fresh but he doesn't keep it so I don't know whether he has any suggestions. Uh you know I would say that probably some form of antioxidant but I don't know if you'd want to add an antioxidant to it.
I don't know which one would be most effective in pasta. But you can if you look up I mean like t I would guess the thing is you're not doing an egg-based pasta because if if you did you could just jack it with uh although vitamin E like tocofirol I don't think that will help with this it's not that kind of an antioxidant I don't think but and you wouldn't want it to go too we are making we are making some uh some some filled pastas as well with egg and it's the same the same story with those. Um you know if you're not well we typically uh vacuum seal the dough right after we make it uh and that that keeps the color for for a while. Uh but then um you know even if it sits out uh outside of the the vacuum bag for you know a few hours um you'll notice the colors start changing pretty quickly so we've just been selling uh freezing those pastas and selling them frozen just to kind of combat that right well that's what I was saying like the well it's the stuff that's in egg right that the tocophirol stuff that's in egg I don't think would prevent the browning side of the oxidation that's gonna help more with fat oxidation I think it's been a long time since I've had to think about it but I don't know that like I I don't know what kind of antioxidant you'd want to add to stop the browning but it's it's it's probably only like if you use Sci hub it's probably only a little bit away, maybe even uh, you know, a couple of papers away. And um, and maybe someone on the uh uh, you know, some because Nastasi, you never had to deal with that stuff, right?
Because you were doing frozen, they would cook it and freeze it. Obviously, once you cook it, you're wiping out the enzymes and you're good. Um so you know, maybe someone in the chat group has had this problem, or our friend in New Jersey who's now making chickpea pasta. Um, anyways, so uh let's let me take a look at it. If you also want to uh email your question in.
If I find anything in research, I'll I'll uh I'll you know talk about it on the air next time. Cool, and then uh just another quick quick one, I guess. Um up front. She's not having it. Okay, cool.
Sounds good. Thanks, guys. Alright, cool. Talk to you soon. All right.
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Nastasia, do that noise again. No. Dude, come on, do the noise again. No, it has to come from. You tell me to redo stuff all the time.
I know. Now you know what it's like. Yeah. This is this she is doing, she was doing her team up from. Okay.
In a nutshell. We've already talked about it. He's never heard of it. Which is weird. So the Leatherman was, you know, possibly a French guy.
You can look at pictures of him on the internets. And he all he used to carry was he'd carry like a couple of personal items, I think like a book and like this like pot that he had. And people would throw away old boots. He would cut them open and like like sew them with thongs into his leatherman outfit, which weighed like 50, 60 pounds. And he would wear this every day of the year, because he only had the one Leatherman outfit.
He would wear it every day of the year, and he would walk in a circle that was 34 days long that went along the coast of Connecticut, then up through Westchester, which is just north of New York City in New York, up like over across to the Connecticut River and back down again around boom, boom, boom 34. And it just so happens most of my adult life has been spent directly on the Leatherman Trail. My mom's house is right near the Leatherman Trail. Uh, you know, uh, you know, New Haven, where, you know, in college was right next to the Leatherman Trail. My place in Connecticut is on the other end of the Leatherman Trail.
So like and Nastasia Lopez is uh, you know, where she is on the on the, you know, in Stanford, fancy Stanford. Is uh on the Leatherman Trail. It's on the Leatherman Trail, Stanford? He didn't curve up before then. I don't think he curved up before then.
Anyway, so we're gonna go through a memorinic. We all live on the Leatherman Trail and he would never sleep inside ever. In fact, they had to force him to go to the hospital when he was dying of mouth cancer, and he didn't really talk to people, wouldn't respond. The famous pictures of him, he look that there are on the web, he looks incredibly angry because you he didn't like people taking pictures of him. This is like the 1880s.
And so like people would give him food to eat and he would sit down and eat it. And so one the one of the most famous pictures. Yeah, he went through Stanford. Yeah, you see him eating something, and what happened is is they had a camera and they put a tarp over it, and they're like, Here, let the man have something to eat. And then they, as he was eating, they pull the tarp off and he's got this look on his face, like, what the and if you messed with him, he would never come back to you again.
And it was seen as kind of a unlike most vagrants, at that time people were writing anti-vagrancy laws, and there was a lot of violence actually against vagrants at that time. But specifically in the anti-vagrancy laws that were passed in several localities where the leather man went through, they would make specific uh um what's it called, allowances for the leather man because he was kind of a good luck charm. And I think the reason is is because it was a extremely regular schedule, uh 34 days, I think. So he would just go around. And there are no caves in Connecticut.
So calling them caves is a misnomer. Like there are literally like zero caves, but what they we do have is piles of rocks. And some of the piles of rocks form cave like structures where the leather man would live, and scattered all around um the leather man trail, the route, are these things called Leatherman caves where you can go hang out where the Leatherman used to uh used to be. And so Nastasia wants us to do a tour where we sew together leather wood and then we beg for food. And by the way, he would do this, like I say, in the middle of the winter, he would be sleeping outside in the cage.
Yeah. If you want to get on board with us, that's gonna be our tour. Leatherman Trail. Leatherman Trail. Oh, the wife.
Wow. Yeah. Do you think that do you think people will go for that? Oh, I mean, my dad's retired, and if I there's a good chance if I tell him about this, he's he's just gonna do it with or without you. But let me ask let me ask you a question.
So you're wearing a 60-pound or whatever it is, leather outfit. Yeah, for like five, for like five, six, seven, eight, ten years straight, right? So, like, at what point can you no longer smell yourself? Probably pretty quick is gonna be my guess based on uh really New York City. But in other words, like like you become accustomed to certain smells.
Like when you're cooking, you know how when you're cooking you like you lose your sense, you have to go in, go out, like you but I don't know, it's gonna be it's gotta be a horrendous. Well, we'll see when we do our tour. The whole point though is you can't be social and do it. Like you and I can't go leather, we can't leather man together. Like we have to be, we have to separate ourselves by a day.
Like everyone on the trail has to be separated by a day. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Then then no, no. We're doing it together. Well, that's not it's not supposed to be social.
He was a loner. I know. He it was the leather man, not the leather group of people. Yeah. Anyway.
Uh okay. Uh okay. If we got a question in which I didn't even know this came, so I didn't. I'm reading it for the first time. I didn't uh somehow it ended up on my iPad without me.
But I'll read this one. I don't know. Pretty much every oven I've ever owned has a convection setting, but I don't ever recall encountering a recipe that says to use it. Uh I've cussed around with it occasionally and read it read up on a bit, but I don't really have a firm grasp on the point of it. Is it correct to think about it as the heat version of wind chill where increased air movement is essentially nullifying nullifying the temperature and moisture gradient that would otherwise exist between the thing being cooked and the oven environment.
Should I be thinking about using it for things where I want to emphasize exterior cooking overcooking through, e.g. roasting asparagus or something like that, where you want to put some color on the exterior without mushing out the interior. Are there any specific use cases where you would recommend it? Thanks. Uh from Patrick.
Uh I when if you have a convection setting, I use it uh almost all the time. So the reason um that they don't talk about it a lot is because not everyone has it, and so when you're writing recipes, they're typically not written for having a convection setting. The the it you're correct, it's the heating version of wind chill. The problem is the air inside of an oven is relatively uh static, right? So if you have, let's say you have a pan of water.
So for some people when you're cooking things, especially early on in the cook, you have a pan of water in the bottom, so you're creating steam, like let's say you're making bread. That steam and the bubbling and boiling creates enough motion in the ocean, let's say, that you have uh you have a pretty good mixing, right? In a in a convection, in a non-convection environment where you're not having a lot of boiling or a lot of movement on the inside of the oven, the air can get relatively stagnant, and especially if there's not an open flame, which there very rarely is, right? It can get fairly static and so you s uh stagnant. And so you can have a very large uh temperature gradient at the surface of the product you're cooking where the moisture is evaporating off of it.
Convection oven just mixes that, so it gets rid of that, one. Two, by moving more hot air over the surface of your product, right, you're increasing the heat transfer rate quite a bit. Now, almost all of the time you want that to happen. So it just makes things cook much more uh rapidly. The there are exceptions, like I guess in a braze, you don't want it, or if you're worried about something cooking too quickly, uh then you then you wouldn't do it.
But what it's doing is just accelerating the rate at which you can put uh energy in. The ultimate of this is called an impingement oven. So if you've heard of like um oh what is it, turbochef, things like this, it's like being like in the wake of a jet engine. There's throwing so much air, hot air across it, that the air that the hot air is constantly fresh. You're getting so much more heat input that it can cook things radically faster.
The only other downside to a convection oven that you get is that I mean, again, sometimes you don't want convection, it can dry out the surfaces of things quickly, but it can actually blow things around. So certain delicate pastries, if you have a high convection setting, uh you can like blast the top of it down, uh, or you know, certain light things can rattle around the oven. So when you're doing dehydration of light things and you turn a convection setting on, if the convection that's why some things have low convection, high convection, uh, because things that are more delicate or things that are gonna get rattled about, you want to put uh a kind of lighter convection on it. But in general, people that have convection use the convection um the majority of the time, I would say. Um okay.
So what's the one that you wanted to meet? Uh that one. Oh. So Steve wrote in from uh Los Angeles, where we're gonna be next week. Steve, you did not provide enough of a uh here's what here's what you said.
I had sushi from a chef who developed a technique for aging fish. I got to try some of this. An Amberjack kompache. Well, okay, Steve. I'm happy that you got to try it.
Maybe it was a poem. It's like a tone poem. Yeah, it's a poem. But I will say this. I had sushi from a chef who developed a technique for aging fish.
I got to try some of this. An Amberjack. Kampachi. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
I think it is a poem. I think it is a poem. And maybe it doesn't require any further elaboration except to say this. I think there are many many more people now who are hip to the fact that fresh fish isn't the best fish. So there are some cultures, there are some preparations where you want to eat the fish as soon as you kill it.
In fact, obviously, there are whole recipes and cultures built on live fish at uh at restaurants. Um, but for the majority, especially for things like sushi, right? You want the stuff to go into rigor mortise, back out, and then go a little further to get kind of the optimum texture. And um this is definitely true of salmon, it's definitely true of tuna, true of most fish, that it's not that there's an optimum day uh after after rigor, like first of all, an optimum day after death and an optimum day after rigor mortis. And then there's a very every species of fish, and also depending on the season and how it was caught, how it was treated, there's a very kind of narrow, perfect window.
And like great sushi chefs uh, you know, for years have known that it's not, it's not the freshest fish, it's the fish that is at the exact right moment that it wants to be served. But it's too complicated to explain that to most people, so they just say fresh. And I remember I forget his name, but there was this, there's this guy, very famous um chef in Kyoto, I forget who it was, because it was 10 years ago, and his name just blanked out of my head. But he was telling us that he went in and he ages his fish as well, you know, to get it exactly at the date he wants. He also used to do um, he would do like also pressed age sushi, where even after you make it, you like age it on combu uh compressed for a Zaba sushi, you know, mackerel sushi, where he would age it for uh a day to get that texture up.
Uh but he won he was he hated commercial refrigeration because he thought it messed with his fish. So he would buy commercial, very modern commercial refrigerators and then turn them off and then just put blocks of ice in them, and that's how he did his fish. I was like a classic, classic. So anyway, Steve, thank you for your poem. Uh also I heard from somebody that they really liked your wedding advice and that you should do more of that.
Well, uh someone needs to ask me questions that I feel uh, you know, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Uh passionate about, passionate about. Yeah. Yeah, passionate about. Uh Kirk wrote in, been a fan of the show for years.
I currently work in a nonprofit in Georgia that helps people who work in commercial food service. This year, as part of our James Beard Award, we are paying for nationwide suicide prevention uh training for anyone who signs up in the month of May. It's not a cooking related question, but uh given uh the show's proclivity for data, the commercial food service industry has the second highest rate of uh suicidal first. I don't I don't know. He didn't say uh highest rate of suicidal ideation.
The uh by the way, the study, if you want to look it up, uh, is Han et al. 2017. Uh, and the industry had a 54% increase in suicides from 2012 to 2015, according to Peterson et al. in 20 uh 18. Uh QPR training, question, persuade, and refer, is considered the gold standard in suicide prevention training and equips people with skills needed to respond to someone in crisis.
It takes about 30 to 45 minutes to complete. Uh, if you'd like to share that on the show, I'd be grateful. Um you know, like I I think we should take it. I run a bar, you know. Uh you should.
I should take it. I mean, I think like in this industry, like, A, there's a kind of there's a lot of young people, there's also a lot of people living uh lot of people living paycheck to paycheck. Um, there's a lot of people that need help. So yeah, I think I I maybe I think I should. I'll take this to the bar and we will try to schedule.
We'll try to schedule this. I think this is uh is a great thing. I think you know, anything you can do to help the you know, help the health of your help the health of your crew or anyone in your industry, you should take the opportunity to do so. I mean, um it's such a tough industry anyway. And I know in the past, kind of the the you know, the attitude of the kitchen can prevent you from, you know, especially the attitude and stop Nastasi, I know you you and I talk about this all the time, like you know, I sliced my hand in half and I just taped it together with duct tape and then you know cinched it on the flat top to glue it back and then got back to work.
So you know that mentality, which is unhealthy, right? Uh that mentality, I think kind of also bleeds over into you know, not wanting to say that you have a problem. And in fact, it can get um it it it becomes difficult because usually in the restaurant industry, the kitchens and uh restaurants and bars are so um have such staffing problems, right? Because we can't overstaff uh but if we understaff we're ruined. So there's such a there's such a stigma, there's such a disincentive to say that you have a problem, because if you have a problem and you know you have to miss shifts, then there's a huge um there's a pressure on you from above either to like not give you the good shifts anymore, or and it's just it's a straight business problem.
And so I think there's a lot that needs to be done in training people who are going through the problems, need help with uh, you know, they're having suicidal suicidal ideation, but there's probably maybe this training addresses it, I don't know. There also I think has to be training on the managerial side of how to help people who are you know going through this without the anger that you get when you have someone on your staff who's having problems and therefore is probably calling out or has other issues. And so I think it's definitely something that um you know that is problematic in the kitchen, something should be looked at. What do you think, Nastasia? The first industry is arts and entertainment, then it's food.
Arts and entertainment. Why? Does creative people in general are are are uh have other you know demons? I guess so. Maybe that's why we all get along.
Seriously. What? Well, who's leading well like artists people, chefs do events together a lot, you know? Yeah, yeah. Don't you think?
I don't know. Uh John Riper, haven't heard from him in a while. I like him. Yeah. Uh this is the question he has.
Acme Ice Cream is a tiny company named after the even tinier town of Acme, Washington. Population 246. So kind of not a good name. Acme, like, should be the top, should be like the biggest city in Washington. Should definitely dwarf Walla Walla.
Isn't that the best name? Walla Walla, that's the cartoon name. Oh, by the way, this weekend I went to the New York Philharmonic, did Looney Tunes music. Oh, why did you go to that? Because uh, I don't know, it was I don't know.
I was I was told to go. But they uh so they played Looney Tunes cartoons and the New York Philharmonic played along with it was cool. It was pretty cool. Although I have to say Poker go? No, come on, please.
Dax went. So we went and it's like how was the last time you rewatched Looney Tunes? Problematic stuff. I know. Problematic not just the ones that they don't play anymore.
When I was a kid, they stopped playing the ones from World War II that were anti-Japanese. They kept playing the anti-German ones longer. But like uh since, you know, since you know the the you know of Me Too started happening since it started coming out, you look at Pepe Le Pew and you're like, oh, that's not funny. Like Pepe Le Pew is basically forcing himself on this cat. When I'm a kid, I didn't really think about it.
But I was like, this is not, you know, not not a s should not be a source of amusement, a guy forcing himself on this cat. Also some other like some some stereotype and they were playing this now, and I'm like, didn't you think maybe this one's or maybe it just gets to be a car cultural artifact? I don't know. But the music was great. Uh Acme okay, sorry.
Acme Washington. But what makes Acme interesting is that their ice cream is way denser than anything else on the market. For example, their products are 30% denser than Hagen Dah's, even, allowing for the actual size of Hagandah's fake pint containers. Uh oh so even allowing for the actual size of Hagendah's fake pint containers. Ac Acme's explanation is that they make their ice cream without adding air.
But that's not true. That's just a lie. I'm sorry, but that has to be a lie. But I find that even minimal churning creates a product a lot less dense than theirs. Do you have any guess how they do it?
And why aren't bigger outfits doing something similar? Because what Acme is churning out, ha ha ha ha, is addictively good. John Riper. So here's the answers. One.
If you want, so I've said this before for ice cream people, like overrun is the amount of air that is in the uh ice cream. So a hundred percent overrun means that uh you have added the same volume of air as you have of ice cream base, right? So that that is, you know, typical like crappy ice cream will be running at like 100% overrun. Um, like a good, like high quality super premium ice cream will have 30% uh 30%, 40%, 50% overrun in there, right? Now, uh frozen custard, which is about the densest thing you can buy on the market, and this is what we were talking about before about Carvel.
We gotta get her in, that lady who invented Fudgy the Whale. Yeah. We need to get her in. Call up Seth, and I need to get the lady who invented Fudgy the Whale in because, and we'll buy a Fudgy the Whale and we'll just have a whole Fudgy the Whale party. For those of you that don't know, Fudgy the Whale was the genius creation at Tom Carvel's uh uh ice cream store to use the leftover soft serve in the machine, and his chef, I forget her name, uh, she created Fudgy the Whale as a result, which is one of the we one of the great things, Fudgy the Whale.
Anyway, so uh where was I on this? Oh. So uh Carvel, very dense, low overrun. So the densest stuff that you can get is out of a frozen custard machine. Uh Ross Stolting is the one that used to make the make a frozen cut custard, and that is the machine that you can just buy on right now, I know of that makes the lowest overrun.
And the overrun, even in a machine like that, is 15 to 20%. So that is about as low as you can go uh and have it be dense and still have the texture be okay. Because if you made it with 0% air, what that would mean is is that it was a hundred percent uh solid, and if it was a hundred percent solid, it would be the equivalent of freezing uh you know ice cream base into a solid block, and that's no good, right? So, like obviously you need some sort of um churning and and air incorporation. So um it was just a question of how much.
So on the frozen custard side with the Ross machine, it's a continuous freezer. And in a continuous freezer, you can dial the overrun very much down because there's not a lot of uh post-agitation. Uh in a batch freezer, when you what you're doing is is that if you look at a batch freezer, there are um there's scraper blades that are scraping the stuff off the outside of the cylinder, and then those are attached to the central shaft, and then that shaft has dashers on it, and that agitates it, right? So you're simultaneously scraping the uh ice crystals off and then whipping air into it with the dashers. So you can adjust the speed of the dashers to adjust overrun somewhat.
You can also uh if you draw it, if you freeze very quickly and draw early, you get lower overrun. Versus if you um if you uh let it harden and then keep churning it, as you keep churning it when it's still getting stiff, you're whipping more air into it because it's it's it's stiffer, it can hold more air, and you're beating more air into it. So you can adjust the overrun somewhat based on the operation parameters of the machine, i.e. the temperature and how you know and uh how long you churn it after it after it you know gets to a uh you know a particular stiffness, but also you can adjust the overrun with the mix itself or by getting something like a continuous freezer, like a like and by the way, the Ross the Ross uh now stolting Ross uh frozen custard machine is really cool, not just because it has amazingly low overrun, but also because it's really the only thing you can buy that is a continuous freezer that's operated on a small basis. So you can make the texture of ice cream that you know a kind of a bigger firm with a real continuous freezer would make, but on a much smaller scale.
The actual transit time from the beginning of putting the ice cream base into a frozen custard machine and getting it out the front is like a minute or two. So you're talking about batch time. So the the longer a batch time is, the kind of bigger the ice crystals are, and also the more opportunity you have after it's frozen to whip air into it. So when you have a batch time that's down in the range of like one or two minutes, you're talking about some really the ability you can get more air into it if you want, but the ability to get a very, very dense, uh very fine crystal product. So if you've never had uh ice cream out of a frozen custard machine, I think you're missing something.
But the reason a lot of people don't do it is just real expensive. You know, air, super cheap. Sell people air, super cheap. Um we have no more time? I was just about to get to the bloody Mary pickle question.
Alright, well, next week we'll get to the bloody merry pickle question. Oh, wait. Because we're gonna do a show from LA or not? Yes, we are. So next week, Nastasia has been furiously carving her apple headed dolls.
But now listen, I need you guys nobody cares, according to Jack. Nastasi and I were in a meeting once, and they were trying to tell us that we couldn't do any outside businesses together. That Nastasi and I could not have any outside business ventures other than the one that we were doing with them. And literally, Nastasi and I were like, what if we want to start an applehead business? You're gonna stop us from starting an applehead business?
And we're like What? They're like, what the hell's an applehead? But it is true that Nastasi and I appreciate Appleheads more than the average folk. Yeah, and screw you if you don't like them. But here's the question I have for you.
If you're gonna have an applehead garnish on your cocktail, which you will if you come to Harvard and Stone next What day? Tuesday. If you come to Harvard Stone next Tuesday and you're one of the first lucky people that show up, you will have an apple head garnish. My question is this. Oh yeah.
Well, they're not googly. Well, they're technically not googly because they're static. They don't Google. Right. Yeah.
But one, Nastasi's using googly eyes, but the googly eyes. They're not googly. Oh my goodness. They look like googly eyes. They are a big, like egg white looking thing with a black pupil in them, like a googly eye, but they're just statically.
So then why don't we have some googly-eyed ones? And why don't we have some that you want? Oh, yeah, yeah. I think we should use it. Mine will be from a different applehead family.
Yours will be from a different applehead family. I think we should use traditional, just like pieces of clove, not pieces, clean cloves as the eyes, because A, they're creepier, and B, that's like legit, like using cloves in Apple as the eye for the apple head is legit cake goog cake decorating googly I know, but there's they're garish. They're garish bearish they're garish compared to a clove okay so we will have both well because we can have because we live in America I thought I thought I was the patriotic I know I gotta I gotta get you know you go you know now now you're so pro-America when it comes to putting googly eyes on the apple heads but that's not even the big deal Nastasia wants to put wait for it fake hair on like on like polyester fake hair on the apple heads and I was like no if it's a garnish for a drink it should all be edible it should all be food based right and don't please Aaron Stanley said you're right so I agree. Whoa whoa whoa me you call me an a-hole but if Karen says all right whatever but anyway but tweet on that in but if don't suggest hair that melts do not suggest cotton candy do not do not suggest cotton candy. Alright so what nothing oh by the way get this can we use like flowers like are they edible flowers or poisonous?
No. Wait which no they don't have to taste good but they have to be non poisonous. No like an a flower type hair you mean like a lay like like tuberos or like that's fine. Or hay hey Matt what do you think? Hay is not edible for humans.
No I know but you're not gonna like if it horses if it fell into your drink is it going to poison you? No. That's or is it gonna be gross like real hair? No. So it's gotta be something like that.
Real hair. Like wig. Alright, check this out. Dax walking down the street the other day. Dog, I don't know when I want to talking about this.
I said it's had to see what people think about this. Dog bites him. Oh no. Yeah, bites him. Then Dax, who's never been bitten before, right?
Like it it it bruised the hell out of him, maybe marginally broke the skin. On his leg, bit his leg. What kind of dog? A big old dog. Bit his leg.
He doesn't know, oh, you have to get a picture of the dog's tag or get the dog's tag to make sure that it's got its shots, because but I don't know if you know this, people. If you get rabies, like that's it. Like even modern technology, whatever, you're gonna die. So if a dog bites you, you need to make sure it has the tags on it. And if it doesn't have the tags, you have to assess what the risk is because you can get a vaccine, but if you don't have the vaccine and you are become symptomatic for rabies, that's it.
You're toast. So um, even today. Uh so anyway, so Dax doesn't get the information. So we detective, find out who it is, we go locate the guy, and instead of being like, first of all, an adult's dog bites a kid. It's very complicated because in my co-op they don't like dogs.
I have two dogs, right? So I don't want anything bad to happen to dogs. I don't want to start a fuss, right? But if your dog bites a kid and you're an adult, get the telephone number of the parents and call them. You know what I mean?
Like, first of all, be sorry. You're just like, oh, you okay? Okay, goodbye. And then like we found him, and he was like, Well, you know, your son, uh, your son had a skateboard and the dog's afraid of skateboard. Like, you are in New York City, sir.
Like, it's not like my son skated up to your freaking dog and like, you know, and like kicked the back of the skateboard and pop the front into your dog's face. My son was had already stopped the skateboard, kicked it up, grabbed the skateboard, was waiting at the light because I've taught him not to skateboard across the street. He was walking across the street, and the dog walks up and bites him, and this is what the man says to me. He is lucky. This man is lucky because I just wanted to avoid him.
I got his, I got the tags. My son's not gonna get rabies, it's all great. But can you imagine what if you had gotten a hold of him? Or what if Jen had gotten a hold of him and he had blamed Dax for having a skateboard, and I think I would get bit. People.
People who live outside of New York City. I'm talking to you, mom, my mom, right? You have dogs and you don't socialize them because they don't walk next to people. And this dog used to be a California suburban dog and just moved into New York after the California wildfires. I found out later from another person on the street who said that these dogs are known unfriendly dogs.
You must please socialize your dogs because if they ever end up in an environment where you're walking down the street on a leash, right, and your dog bites. Now, luckily, I mean, like I told, you know, Dax and I were both like, I don't want to be, we don't want to be the cause of some dog getting put to sleep because it's not on the dog, it's on the owner. I don't want that to be on us. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not against I would hate that uh because things happen sometimes.
But people, socialize your dogs. Cooking issues. Simplecast is a popular hosting and analytics platform that allows podcasters to easily host and publish to apps like Apple Podcasts. If you have a podcast or are looking to create your very first, check it out. Try it for free and save half off your first three months at Simplecast.com/slash Heritage.
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