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This week on Meet and Three, we're diving straight no chaser into the delicious crossover of the food and jazz worlds. And I think that sense of nostalgia is what makes it hard to do New Orleans food well because people just have these memories of these dishes. Certainly, people from New Orleans like you're never gonna make you know a gumbo as good as their mother or grandmother made, right? Comfort foods, you gotta get your hands dirty, and uh jazz is a musician, it's just like it all goes together very well, you know. Check out Meet and Three, HRN's weekly food news roundup wherever you listen to podcasts.
Join as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How are you doing? Good. Good. Got Matt in the booth, how you doing?
I'm doing great. I got some guy on the phone. I haven't even talked to him yet, but we already have a call. That's amazing. Amazing.
We'll take the caller and then we'll talk about our normal beginning of show, talk about stuff. Hey Dave, this is Zev from New York. How are you doing? Good, how are you? I got I haven't heard the beginning of the show, so I don't actually know what's going on.
But in any case, you are the beginning, my friend. Excellent. Um, so I have a Hanukkah party coming up in a couple of weeks. Uh, and I have a recipe for potato latkas that I've used for the last couple of years that I really like, and it involves shredding the potatoes, soaking them in water to pull out um some of the starch and then wringing them out right um to get them as dry as possible. Um and recipe's really great.
I really love the outcome. Um, but I'm working on scaling it up. Um last year I did 20 pounds of potatoes, and by um the end of the the time I had to spend um putting the potatoes in towels and wringing the water out of them, um I was sore for sore for three days. So I'm trying to come up with a way to recreate the procedure, which is again putting them the soaking them in water and then um getting all of the water out of them um just in a more scalable way, and thought you might have some ideas. Well, when I have too many things to squeeze out, I go put them into my 20-ton shop press.
But I'm assuming that you do not want to invest in a 20-ton shop press. Probably not. I did start looking at some screw presses online, and they were about a hundred bucks, which is uh probably a little more than I want to spend for a once-a-year tool. Yeah. Um what kind of screw press?
Like, what are they intended for? For like apple cider? Juice. Yeah, for juice and and cheese. Yeah.
I mean, those will work, and they uh are I mean, the the nice thing about a hydraulic press, obviously, is it pushes straight down. And when you're twisting something, well, then you have to like put the thing between your knees or bolt it down to a table or something like that to stop it from uh twisting. Um let me see. Well, uh what equipment do you own? Like a vacuum machine can help dry it out a little bit, but then you're gonna be blasting through your and it's gonna take forever.
It'd probably be easier just to squeeze the stuff. Um I don't have a vacuum machine. Um but I have a pretty well stocked kind of standard standard kitchen. Yeah, I mean the the the you know the the best thing to substitute for ringing something in a towel is squishing the hell out of it, and the best thing to squish the hell out of it with it is in in this order a a hydraulic press, uh, then probably some form of screw press. Uh you know, because most things like let's say like m potato ricer, for instance.
Like, let's say you let's say you took a potato ricer, lined it with uh like a super bag, put your potatoes in and then squeezed it the hell out of it that way. I mean, first of all, like the one section has a lot more force on it than the other section does because it's it's an angle, right? And and you know, you're not getting the equal force per, you know, per area on that on the angle because of your make mechanical leverage there, but also it's such a small quantity, you know what I'm saying? That you can do it one time that it's not gonna be that now. If you're willing to substitute your time for money, you can kind of make a screw press.
But the problem with making a screw press is that you know, usually they don't they don't work as well because you don't have the the correct pitch, and then to get a big enough uh thread so that it doesn't bind and then to get it to go down straight. Another alternative is you can buy used on eBay, you could get like an enterprise uh sausage stuffer and use that, which is what I recommended to the Museum of Food and Drink that they use for their duck press because they couldn't afford to buy a real duck press. And they ended up really liking uh the Enterprise Sausage Stuffer as a as a duck press. Um the it and and they're very rugged, they're cast iron, so occasionally they do break, but they're very rugged. Uh and they have they can come with uh uh if you look carefully, an insert with that has a mesh screen so that you don't have to bag it before you throw it into your into your press.
Now, the downside of them uh is that they were built a long time ago, and so any solder joint uh or any paint that is on it is most likely lead contaminated. So there's that. Uh but some of them are pretty clean. Uh but I believe that the strainer baskets do have solder joints on them. I can't it's been a long time since I have owned one, but that's that's my memory.
The other thing, and I don't know if it'll give you enough pressure, but it's very cheap and you can return it if it breaks, is places like Grizzly, which I believe is cheaper than Cabela's, uh sells a very sub $100 uh five-pound sausage stuffer. And you could fairly easily with a sack, you know what you want the the issue is clogging at the at the bottom, so you need some form of very strong uh like slats or something at the bottom, right? And then preferably slats around the side. So if you get the sausage stuffer and then you just get very like thin, you know, pieces of wood and lined your sausage stuffer with thin pieces. This is why like a press basket for um for apples and whatnot.
The the reason they're always made of slats or they have some sort of insert with something in it, is so that is that even when you're pushing on it real hard, that there are some spaces that are just supported by the press cloth where the liquid can come out, otherwise the liquid would get blocked by the actual product that you're trying to squish. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And I'm I'm just thinking I don't I've never used a sausage stuffer, so I'm I'm a little confused. What you just said about baskets and and slats make sense.
I'm a little confused as to how would you use a sausage stuffer to ring something to squeeze liquid out of sauce? So I'd have to look at the sausage stuffers because it's been a while. So the way so there's there's a couple of different kinds of sausage stuffer, but the two most common style are the press style, which you know you you you you push it and it's got something that looks kind of like a tube, uh like a horn rather. It looks kind of like a like a shofar, right? Yep, and then you pull down it.
And then the other kind has a crank on the top of it with uh a pinion gear, and then uh that like takes a central uh thread and pushes the uh pushes a plunger down and squishes the sausage out through the bottom through a hole. And these are the ones that are very close to uh an enterprise, which was sold both as a fruit press and as a sausage stuffer because on the farm, who had the money for both a sausage stuffer and a fruit press? You know what I'm saying? So um with one of those, right, with a sausage stuffer, then you know, the the mentally you just you know wrap in in cheesecloth or whatever the potatoes, throw them into the five pound sausage stuffer, so you could do it in four batches, let's say 20 pounds, and then you crank down on it, the plunger goes down and just squishes the ever loving hell out of it, and all of the nasty pinkish, disgusting potato water with its itinerant starch and and dissolved sugars shoots out the bottom, right? Now the where the meat would usually come out.
Where the meat would usually come out. So what you would need to do then is put like little slab. So with the Enterprise, look on eBay at the Enterprise Sausage Stuffer. So the Enterprise, you could either use it as a sausage stuffer or you had a cast iron press plate that went or cra cast iron plate that went into the bottom that was perforated but also very strong, so you could push on it real hard. And so then the entire bottom became a place where juice could leak out and then into the into the thing.
Otherwise, you're gonna have to, like I say, put some form of slat work at the bottom so that there's a place for the juices to run. And then you might might also need slat work on the sides, but I don't know what the clearance between the edge of the plunger and the um the edge of the plunger and the um uh and the side walls of the five-pound guy are. The nice thing about the five-pound guy, completely stainless, so you don't have to worry about uh anything else. But just go on the uh go on eBay, or I'm sure there didn't used to be, you know, 20 years ago, but I'm sure there are now websites all you know devoted to the enterprise sausage stuffer. Uh but look at the old uh fruit press sausage stuff, but look at those.
They're also kind of cool to own, and you can use it for other things like like sausage, but go do a little bit of research on those and then also look at the uh you know the one I had was Grizzly and I think it was like 50 something bucks, and you can also use it for sausage. And it if you ever make sausage or if you're interested in doing it, like it completely makes short work of that, right? As opposed to the nightmare of trying to stuff sausages any other way. Like, even if you only do it a couple of times a year, just the joy of using one of those things to sus uh stuff sausage. Now, if you have a good meat grinder, I'm assuming you don't have a fancy meat grinder, because a fancy meat grinder could do that as well.
You just, you know, run it through the auger without the cutting plate and you can go into it tube. I mean, but for instance, the kitchen aid sausage stuffing attachment for their first of all, the kitchen aid meat grinder attachment is a freaking abomination. It's you know, maybe it's horrible. It's a horrible. And like the sausage stuffer attachment for it is similarly horrible.
It's just a horrible piece of equipment. And I like Kitchen Aid. I'm not saying anything negative about their products in general. I'm just saying that product is garbage. Yep.
You know, you know what's not garbage, but I don't know why it costs so much money. Is the pasta attachment for a kitchen aid? It's ridiculous. Have you seen how much that costs? Those are great, they're great.
I have one. I love it. Yeah, they're fantastic, but why do they cost so much? Why does the pasta roller cost so much? So I b I bought, what did I buy?
I I actually had took my old pasta, my hand, my hand crank atlas, which are reasonably priced. The problem with hand crank pasta makers is you really want to have two hands to mess with the pasta sheet, but you can't because one hand is cranking, right? I mean, isn't that the real problem with a hand crank pasta maker? I mean, in my opinion, plus you have to bolt it down, right? So I believe I disappeared.
So I have no idea how someone would do it without two hands, so I'm with you. Yeah, I mean, you could do it. It's just, you know, I never enjoyed, you know, you know, not having a third hand there, right? And I'm not that guy who's asking or waiting for someone to get home, so I'm gonna make pasta because it's doable, it's just a pain in the butt. But I think what I did was did I buy the roller unit for the thing, but then adapted all of my old cutters with a 3D printer?
I think I built a 3D printed attachment to adapt the KitchenAid to my pasta maker. Anyway, uh it's been so long, but yeah, because I just couldn't I I couldn't in good conscience pay what they wanted, but I should have because that is one of the better attachments, I have to say. You know what is also a very good attachment for the KitchenAid? I don't know if I talked about it on air. For my entire adult life, I wanted to own a vegetable sheeter like that makes the the Daikon sheets, and uh, you know, and then you know, I was told by Japanese chefs what an a-hole I was, that I should learn to you know take a Nusuba, a vegetable knife, and cut my own sheets.
So I did, and it's possible, but I still always kind of wanted one of those sheets. And the ones at JB Prince were always super expensive, and they had the fancy one that would not only cut a sheet, but also had like a almost like an interrupted pasta roller that would perforate it to turn the daikon sheet into a fishnet. Have you seen these? I don't know. Anyway, they're great.
Oh, I'm here. Sorry, I didn't know if that was a question from here. Yeah, I mean, Nastasia doesn't care. I mean, what do you think? Do you like those fish?
Have you seen the fishnet diecon? Fishnet Daikon, cool. I mean, I have no reason to own it, and so like I have too much stuff anyway at the house, so I never bought one. But then KitchenAid uh came out with a sheeting attachment, and I finally it went on super sale one day, so I finally bought it, and having vegetable sheets is awesome. Specifically, what do you do with them?
Well, specifically potato sheets. So, like uh, you can do you can make these like long, long, long potato sheets and then do very fine layered uh like uh gratin with them, and they're great. They really are. Bake them like lasagna, fantastic. Uh but stuff to potatoes for a second.
So I I really like your idea with the sausage stuffers. I'm gonna I'm gonna take a look at those. Do you in terms of just the overall method? I mean, this has been working really well for me to get kind of really shoestringy, crispy latkas by soaking soaking the potatoes and ringing it back out. Uh-huh.
Um, do you think I'm over it's overkill? Or do you think that something like uh you know throwing the potatoes in the oven or a dehydrator could get me something similar instead of squeezing, or is it the way to go? Do you have a dehydrator? No, but I've always thought about buying one. I mean, dehydrators are nice to have.
For instance, like let's say your name's Nastasia Lopez and you want to have apple head dolls. Then I did them with that one. Uh she used her oven, yes, because having a dehydrator takes her over the line into that stereotype of SoCal women who make apple heads at home. And Nastasi didn't want to be that SoCal expat with a freaking, you know, dehydrator full of apple heads. Yep.
She has she would you wouldn't be that, right? Unacceptable. Unacceptable. Unacceptable. Uh, but having uh an excalibre around is always uh, you know, a good thing to have.
Uh, you know, in general, like, unless you eat that way all the time, you're gonna go in spurts, like you're gonna you're gonna use it a lot and then you're not gonna use it for a year, and then you're gonna use it a lot and then you're not gonna use it for a year. But I'm fine with that. Me personally. Um, you know, now I only use it when Nastasia doesn't want to, you know, do her broke broke uh apple heads in her oven. How would have the oven ones come out?
Great. Yeah. Anyway, so I was gonna say, if you have one, I would try it. Ringing out is a little bit different because there's no heat damage to it, right? And you're squeezing it, so you're uh also expelling things, whereas dehydrating is just getting rid of water.
So if you think about this, all of the stuff that came out with the water, like all that nasty colored stuff, which is starches, sugars, and enzymatically converted stuff, because I'm assuming your water is gross and your towel looks pink and gross at the end, am I right? Oh yeah. Yeah. So uh none of that stuff will come out of the potato in a dehydration or an oven step. It will all stay in the potato.
Uh what will leave is water in the form of the body. Yeah, that doesn't sound like it'll work. And that's also I I usually soak them overnight and then ring them out the morning of. Um and ringing them out and getting all of the getting everything out of there seems to prevent them from turning brown as fast when I start cooking, because I just cooked in batches with a bag of them on the table. So I yeah, no, that that sounds right that heating them wouldn't get me the same uh outcome.
And presumably you're so you're soaking in e excess water, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I I use a big I would had a bucket for a while and I've upped uh as we've added more people to our Hanukkah party every year, now I have to use like a full-size Coleman cooler. Uh nice with the potatoes in there.
I mean, if you think think about it this way, right? There's a there's a couple of things, like uh there's starch that you mentioned, which is true. Uh, but also there are um I don't know what the soaking frankly does, whether it reduces the level of the enzymes that cause brown. I have no idea. But yeah, I'm presumably it does.
Um, but the the sugars also are going to get soaked out by the water. So that's what the other thing when you're soaking um, for instance, fries. Like one of the things you're doing is soaking out a lot of the sugars, and in a shredded potato, obviously it's gonna soak out even you know more and faster than it will in a larger cut uh potato kind of a uh situation. But yeah, look so do you do do you add seltzer to your uh latkas or no? Shorty adds seltzer to his latkas.
I I don't um I I guess but people do that for to make them fluffier, yeah. No, I just do egg, mozzamal, and onion. Um and I kind of mix them up in in small batches and just as I get them into the pan. Yeah. The way you said mix them up reminded me of Ice Cube saying uh mix them up, put them in a pot like gumbo, which is one of my favorite lines in that on that album.
But the um yeah, I mean, don't change your recipe. I'm just saying everyone has a different idea of what's perfect for them. If what you got works, you know, don't try to change it so much, it's just adapt to a larger thing. Unless you run a test and you find out, hey, I can oven these things down and they'll be fine, but I just don't think it's gonna be the same. No, it doesn't sound like it.
Cool. Well, I'm thinking about coming to the existing conditions uh New Year's party if that's still if that's still happening. As far as I know, I just gotta talk to the partners and get it all straightened out. Cool. Alrighty, thanks.
Good luck with your lotcases. Happy Hanukkah. Yep, take care. Speaking of holidays, uh Nastasia, how's your Thanksgiving? It was good.
Yeah, what'd you do? I went to my friend's house. She cooked most of the food. Everyone else had to bring things. That was the turkey.
Great. Uh-huh. For real? She can cook turkey. Yeah.
Really? No, it was a great we had a great time until you called me constantly. Uh I first of all, people like Nastasia and I ruin each other's Thanksgiving. Yeah, but I really didn't want to. I was like, listen, uh if you want me to leave, I can leave.
I didn't say leave. I know, but then I was that meant like stop texting me. No, but I couldn't stop texting you. We had stuff we needed to do. There's nothing I could have done about it, though, in that situation, in that in that room, in that house, where we're going to be able to do it.
Well, you there was nothing you could have done at home. Right. So if I'm going to go to the house, no. Oh, I was enjoying myself. Yeah, the boat is sinking.
We're talking about Good Friday and the I mean not Good Friday. Uh Black Friday and the Black Friday sale. And sorry, you own a business. There's just stuff you have to do, and it doesn't require you to go home. I could have done.
Like anything. Nothing. We both needed to be aware and surprise the people. Yeah, so wow, that, yeah. Mm-hmm.
And then you kept going. I was like, okay. Should I stop dancing? Nastasi is being a jerk. No, it's true.
Like, and everyone's like, what is going on with you? Why can't you? And you're like, well, our business is going to hell in a handbasket. I just need to focus on this for a minute. I can't do anything.
Well, in fact, we did. We bought pressure on the person who needed to change the stuff and it got changed. And we called her. And it got changed. We called her.
It didn't require you to murder. Oh, I have to go home. Stop it. No, you have to miss one version of Delight. So that you can walk outside of the room.
It wasn't an hour and a half. It was literally four texts over the course of half of an hour, and you had to check it maybe three times. Oh, and I feel so bad about it. Wait, Matt, do I feel bad about it? I I can't tell.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would have thought that you'd like to do that. I don't feel that the video of you guys throwing all the equipment would have single handedly saved your business. Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt. If it was just easy enough to try to do a good job and make something and then sell it on Amazon, but Amazon throws, and by the way, the stuff that Nastasi and I handle, like the spinzall and the cube, like we flipped that switch in the morning.
Like Nastasi and I got on the phone and we're like, yo, we're flipping the switch now so they don't have to worry about it later. And guess what? That worked. That worked. Yep.
What didn't work was the one that Amazon had some control over. People get this. You'll enjoy this, people, I think, right? So Amazon.com, right? Our favorite.
I believe they're not even like, I don't like them the way I like Peter, right? So, like, even though we punch on Amazon a lot, they are not my favorite punching bag. Like, we just punch them, right? Because they do they freaking deserve it. Get this.
The Searsol. By the way, we have a patent on this device. We also have a patent on the cocktail cube, which we'll talk more about maybe someday. Uh, and a patent on the spinzole. Uh, we have a patent on it.
We make it. Amazon buys it from us in China. So they have 100% control. So Nastasi and I got sick of it. We got sick of it.
And we're like, we're gonna buy some, and we're gonna own them, and then we can set the price at whatever we want, which is how we were doing the Black Friday sale. Amazon, first of all, and whatever, this is what it is. Anytime near Black Friday, Amazon's like, nah, I'm just not gonna take that into my warehouse. I'm not gonna do it. So then, then though, we get some into the warehouse so we can do it.
Nastasia, like literally, literally FedEx overnights a couple of boxes, and a box is 27. A couple of boxes of Searsols to Amazon. We get it in, and they're like, you're not authorized to sell the Sears All anymore. We're like, what? They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, I was like, we both Nastasi and I call were like, what do you mean we're not authorized to sell the Sears all anymore? We used to sell it. We still have it in our listing thing. We you allowed us to replenish it. Why can't we sell it?
He's like, well, when you have resellers, sometimes the manufacturer makes it so that you, you know, that not everyone is authorized to sell it. I am the manufacturer! I am the manufacturer! And then the person was like, the person was like, well, that's a different team. All right, well, put me in touch with the team.
Oh, that team doesn't have telephones. That team's only by email. I'm like, well, Nastasia already spoke to them, had the same screaming match with them well over a week ago, and your team, your team, the team has not gotten back to us. You're telling me there's not one single human being on God's green earth that can that can realize that they are literally buying them from us. I said, look, I said, look at, look at, look at, look at, look at it.
Can you see that we used to sell them? He's like, nope. He's like, Amazon changed your their policy. I'm like, to what? Like, who made this decision?
He's like, Oh, I can't see that. And uh literally, I said to the guy, this is on Thanksgiving. I literally said to the guy, so what you're telling me is that you're screwing me. There's nothing you're gonna do about it, and also you personally don't care. And he said, yes.
I was like, click. And this, by the way, for as good as these weasels are, which they are very good at dealing with customers, this is how crappily they treat their vendors. I swear to Christ, it's the worst. Uh Stas, what do you think? Yeah, that is the way it is.
So, and so then, and then I have to hear this one with her pseudo-martyring, stop texting me about like having to deal with this stuff. And I'm like, you know what? Deal with it. If you don't get the hook. If the tables are turned and you were with your family, I've had it happen many times.
Stop. No. My wife is a good idea. Oh, oh, excuse you. It's true.
She gets mad at me, and you know what I do? I suck it the hell up because it's our business, and you've done it to me many, many times. When there's an outcome that we And we got the outcome. We got the price down. It's still crappy.
By the way, people, our good, our happy our hap Black Friday sale. It was still running it, and you just have to search like a mother to find go on my Twitter account. If you want the $59 Sears all, go on my Twitter account. I link to it. I believe it's it's a linked in my Twitter account, and Nastasi's gonna hook it up in my Instagram and maybe on her Instagram for it.
It's on my Instagram. The link go to the go to uh what is it? Lopez. Just Nastasia Lopez. At Nastasia Lopez.
Yes. Okay. Uh her Instagram account and go to the link in the bio, and that is the magic route to the 5999 uh Searsol. But such an irritant. Like they're so irritating.
So irritating. And then and then I have to hear it from her like I'm a bad guy. Like I'm a bad guy, please. Please. I mean, I am, but not for that reason.
Oh my dancing old. I have to go home. I'm the bad guy. You are. You're a bad guy because you could have just dealt with it and not tried to martyr it.
You understand that I don't have feelings about whether or not you miss a particular dance or not, and nobody's asking you to go home. I'm the bad guy. I'm glad you finally realized this. My thing. Matt, what?
It's a song. Which song? It's called Bad Guy. Is it different from nobody knows what it's like to be the bad man? Yes.
Yes. Who sings this one's bigger with the kids these days? Yeah, who sings it? Oh God, what's her name? Billy Eilish.
Thank you. Oh, yeah. No, I'm not on my radar. Not on my radar. I mean, like, I know who it is, but not on my radar.
Matt, what'd you do for Thanksgiving? I cooked a bunch of food. Yeah. Uh I cooked probably eight people's worth of food for three people. Oh, yeah?
Well, that's good. I still have leftovers as well. I cooked 30 people's worth of food for nine. Alright. Well, our ratios are I'm not doing the math.
Similar. Did you uh did you make a turkey? No, no, no. Uh salmon. Salmon?
Yeah. You're not from the Pacific Northwest. What the heck are you doing? Sam. Uh, don't eat meat.
Oh, yeah. Not at all, not even turkey. I mean, no. All right. Another uh Jack Shram had a uh a meatless uh Thanksgiving as well because his parents went uh pescatarian.
So he had fish soup. Fish soup. I don't know. I like a turkey. I had a the biggest heritage turkey I have ever seen in my life.
The only heritage turkey I ever saw that was bigger was one that Patrick had already uh set aside for someone that was next to it. It was 26 and a half pounds. And for a heritage bird, that is huge. Like most of them were coming in like, you know, like 13, 14, 15 pounds. But uh Patrick Martins, Heritage Foods, fearless leader of our network, in fact.
Uh yeah, he hooked me up with a 26 and a half pound uh heritage turkey. Now listen, the way I cooked it, I explained it on the Instagram, but the way I cooked it, every year I do it a little bit differently because I don't think I'm ever gonna make it to the complete level of perfection of the bionic turkey where you rip all the bones out, build a new set of bones that are also heaters, and you pump like butter through it at different temperatures to get everything kind of exactly right, and then flash fry the outside. I'm I'll probably never make it like to that level using any other kind of uh technique. But A, it's a huge pain in the butt. There's Nastasia, what do you enjoy more?
Making fun of how long that takes me to do while someone's trying to video it, or do you enjoy when Peter comes in on the bathroom? Oh God, Peter. Yeah. But you still you enjoy making fun of me when I'm slow boning the turkey out. Yeah.
Yeah. The easiest way, but doesn't do the presentation that I want. By the way, Peter, speaking of punching bag, you know what Peter did for Thanksgiving? Uh yeah, you told me. Ballotine.
He cut he he did it just a tube. Hey, people. It is a superior way, right? And I know French people who do this. But Peter, although he's married to a French person, is not a French person, and I feel that it's not okay to serve a turkey tube on Thanksgiving as an American.
What do you think, Stuzz? I think you can do whatever you want. What? Since when? Since when do you believe that anyone can do anything?
You are the most judgmental person in the world. That's definitely not true. It totally is. Anyway, it's not official. Also, similarly, spatchcock kind of look like a bird, but they're broken down, but it's kind of superior for cooking.
This year I cut out the backbone, and because it was so big, I used a meat saw, and that really made my wife like she was like, Can you not can you not saw? Because the noise of the meat of the saw on the bone, she's like, wow, that's unpleasant. I'm like, well, yeah, hmm. Anyway, so I ripped out most of the bones, the rib cage, left the kind of keel bone in so that the breast would maintain its shape, and I left the thigh and the and the uh leg bone in, took the rest out. The advantage of removing bones is I've said it before, I'll say it again, you can make a delicious gravy well in advance, and you have a lot more gravy.
So it's a huge plus. Uh but then this time, uh, what I did differently, I salted it, a little bit of sugar, pepper, herbs. I took, you know, those bags that are meant to vacuum comforters? Mm-hmm. Like, yeah, they're not for food.
Like, they're for like your sweaters and stuff. I took one of those and stuck it in with a couple of sticks of butter and took my regular vacuum cleaner and just sucked it down with one of these clothing bags, and then like screwed the little cap on it that it comes with that's not watered, and then like duct taped over that, and then I bent it into shape over a cocktail shaker and then put it into the bucket, the cooking bucket, which was in fact a container that used to store comforters, like a big thing. And then I filled just up to the leg level with uh very hot water and cooked it just the legs for a couple of hours before I filled the rest of the bucket up and wrote it out low temperature. Uh then siphoned the water out. Because listen, how many of you have done low temperature cooking with that on big stuff?
And then you try to move that big thing to dump the water, or you lift the thing out to try to chill it and you mess it up when it's hot, forget about it. I just put a tube in, siphoned all the water out, and then added ice water, chilled it in the bucket, then uh put it in the fridge overnight, and then my oven was free the next day. It only took me like 40 minutes in the oven to brown the skin, and it was it was great. But next year, I think I'm gonna do my my goal that I've never done is to rip the you know what my least favorite part of turkeys are, Anastasia? Yes.
Ripping something out. No. Kind of close. What? I don't know.
The tendons in the legs, those ten, those hard tendons in the legs, and then someone's like, uh, can I serve you a piece of the leg meat? And you're like, eh, bit, bit, bit, bit, and then they give you that hard tendon, and then your tooth goes into that hard tendon. Anyway, but they are, and here's where you're correct, very hard to rip out when the stuff's raw. So when you're doing the fully like bionic bird, you can rip out the tendons before you do the cooking, but you tend to lose a lot of meat. But the kind of what I've always wanted to try is to rip the legs out and then confie them, leave the bone in, but confie the legs, then rip the tendons, and then put them back into the skin and cook again.
Maybe next year. But anyway, the Heritage Bird tasted great. It's a little rosier, obviously, than a regular bird, but it was it was good. Made my mom stuffing. What kind of stuffing do you like?
Do you like stuffing? Oh, not really. Really? What do you grow up to? Stove top.
Oh. What kind of I've never had stovetop stuffing. Never. What do you do to stove top stuffing? How do you make it?
It comes as like bread cubes, right? Yeah, I don't know what you do to it. Huh. Well, what kind of stuffing did Tarrajo make? A real stuffing with meat in it.
I didn't ask. Wow, you are a very curious eater. I'm glad you're in the food business. I'm glad you're my partner in Booker Index. Oh, wait.
Yeah, it's being uh facetious. Uh I just don't know you Nastasia hates people thinking or talking about food, which is interesting that she co-hosts a show about cooking food, which is why she only pipes up when we're talking about non-food stuff. She hates Italian people, likes Italy. No, the thing is I love eating. I really love eating.
I just don't care about certain aspects. Well, did you know that you have a show where you're supposed to talk about eating and cooking? Alright, just curious, curious whether you knew that. Carl wrote in. Uh, how do you feel about using uh now?
I don't understand, Carl. I I gotta say up front, I don't understand what you're talking about. How do you feel about using a black garlic, low heat, long-time technique to roast green coffee? I prefer a coffee that's been roasted the hell out of with gas myself. Now, I looked on the internet, and I was not able to find any references to people that roast that long, right?
So when you're talking about black garlic, you're talking like days, like days, days. Like the only thing that I know about with coffee roasting is like the am I gonna do it in like eight minutes or am I gonna do it in like 15 to 20 minutes, right? So, like the the range of long, but like when you bring up something like black garlic, you're making me think that you're talking about like way, way, way, way longer roast than that. And I wasn't able even able to find that on the internet. So you have to send me, and I looked, and I'm not a bad Googler.
I'm not a bad Googler. You Googly. Did you like Zoolander? I haven't seen it all. Matt, Zoolander fan?
I mean, I remember I have positive feeling associations. You remember you Googolizer? No, I don't oh, well, you it's eulogy, right? Eulogy, yeah. He has to give the eulogy when all of his friends just uh burn themselves to death in the gasoline fight with the Starbucks with the lattes, he's going to get, and then he's like, I have to be the you googalizer.
Alright, you've you've made me feel even better about Zoolander. Yeah, Zoolander's great. He's like, he's like, I bet you didn't think I knew what a you googly was. That movie is genius. Oh my god, so funny.
This is why I've said this before on the air. The people who hate Zoolander 2 were like, it's so much like Zoolander 1. I'm like, well, didn't you like Zoolander 1? And if the answer is yes, then why wouldn't you just want more of that but different jerks? Anyway.
How do you feel about using a black low low heat long time technique? Well, like I said, I wasn't able to find it. What happens the so if we're talking about normal roasting, I'm interested, by the way. I'm interested. Any sort of weird thing, I'm interested.
But if you're looking at what you normally consider to be a longer roast profile, um, obviously you're going to be burning out more acid. So you're gonna have a like a lower, a lower acid, a lower acid cup. If you uh the the a nice uh treatment of different kind of roast profiles and achieving them at home uh on the internets is uh friend of the show, Paul Adams. Paul Adams did a uh a Cook's Illustrator, I think it was for Cooks Illustrated on his kind of home roasting uh adventures. And if you have money, right, you know, you gotta get uh Scott, I wonder whether it's pronounced Ray or Rao.
Anyway, I never met him, so I don't know. But uh get his book on uh on roasting. But I know a lot of people who are reacting against the I'm not gonna ask Nastasia, Matt, do you drink coffee? I do indeed. Because Nastasi's just gonna be like, I don't care, so I won't make a comment.
But like if you notice that uh recently, uh like in the past like five years, that like coffee is becoming more and more about focusing on the highlights and the acid notes because it emphasizes the varietal characteristics of many coffee beans better, right? So you'll notice that even in espresso shots, like maybe eight years, nine years, they've been getting kind of on more on the on the tart side. And I know a lot of people, especially my age and older, who are kind of reacting against that and are like, yo, I don't want it to taste like blueberries. I want that kind of more mellow, uh, you know, I want that, you know, kind of the less acid profile, right? In fact, I had like a very good friend of mine come up and be like, how do I tell the coffee people this is what I like without insulting them?
I'm like, hey, you're allowed to like whatever you like. But you know, if you like that, then the longer roasting is gonna kind of uh get rid of more of the acids. And so you go that way. So like that in general, like that's where I think about it. But you're gonna have to be more specific on exactly what you what you want.
And you know, maybe someday we were gonna have a coffee person come on, but they they weren't it they weren't in town. You know, maybe if I if I ever meet Scott Ray or get him on, he can come on, because he's really the guy, or we can get Paul to come on talk because I think he met him when he was doing his uh his thing with Jake. If we get people, if we get Paul back on the show, I promise we will do so without allowing him to eat anything. What that listener, listener called him a psychopath, right? Yeah, yeah.
He said, What did he say, like chewing psychopath, and then he threatened to murder him or something like that? It was crazy. Look it up. Yeah, look it up. What now?
Paul last time or second to last time that Paul was on the show, uh, he specifically made mouth noises. Okay. When we said not to make mouth noises. And a listener wrote in and not only called Paul a psychopath, but fundamentally threatened him, I think, somehow, right? She's looking for it.
Wow. Well, she's looking for it. Should we you should we take a break and come back? Uh is that a yeah? Yeah.
All right. I have to look up a piece of information for the classic. So okay. Uh yeah. Alright.
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I barely caught it. Oh yeah. All right. So last week on the radio program, Capri Sun dropped off some Capri Sun, we don't know his real name. Dropped off some more fish that had been uh EKG made.
I didn't get a chance to eat it. It's in my freezer still because it was Thanksgiving. But enjoyed the sack sack and the Katsu guys and uh and the kimchi. But also I forgot a couple of weeks ago uh we had uh at the at the what's that called? What's that was at the gala?
Uh at the at the gala, uh someone came who's a listener, and uh she actually had written in about the caramel sauce for her wedding, right? And she gave us some that had been bottled according to what and said it was said it worked well. Uh Serena, I believe. And she also dropped off because she had listened to the show. Uh she and her friend work at uh at like an actual they're they're food engineers.
Food engineers. Uh they you know, at one of the houses uh or one of the, you know, the big companies between here and Philly. And they had heard that that Nastasi and I had once tried to make Gets Caramel Cream with coconut as like a coconut gets. And Nastasi and I mentally were in the right space, but we I'm gonna go say we effed it up royally. Right?
It didn't set. Was it right? Is it didn't set? So she made us some. So you want to try it here?
Mm-hmm. Alright. Now Nastasia. Wait. Oh now she said that they that the temperature's a little different, so it's a little more crystal-y than you would normally.
This is the sound of the paper, not a mouth noise. Please don't murder me in my sleep. Where's the middle? Take a bite. If if you're gonna try and murder Dave, listeners, please go to existing conditions and not the Roberto's studio.
The flavor is good. And the texture of the middle part thing is good, but we need the caramel thing around the outside. This is a good I think this is a good filling. I think it's an excellent thing. It's an excellent filling.
We just need more of the we need the bigger thick brown layer around it, but this is an excellent filling. Did she give us the recipe for this one or no? I can't read that small of a writing. For the caramel? For the for the coconut one.
Oh. For the cream? Yeah. We got the we got the car, we got the coconut cream. One to two tablespoon coconut oil, one to two tablespoon shortening, one cup powdered sugar, massage into a paste, roll into a log.
Whoa. What? What is that? That is Peter screaming. Hold on.
I was like, Oh my god. But like for my uh Apple, Apple is like, hey, you know what you want? You want your eye. Oh god. Really?
Hold on, watch this. AK, you're on the air right now. I'm on the air? You're on the air because I can't tell my eye my i my iPad to not answer my iPhone. I'll call you in a minute when I'm off the air.
That's A.K. Hata, the manager of our bar people. Yeah. And just goes to show how technically incompetent I am. I'll I'll list them as a guest.
Yeah. Um, wow. Nastasia's not gonna let me live that down while we're having our pizza. Anyway. Um I lost even where I was.
And and it used to be back in the day that your iPhone had a button that you could press that would say shut up, but that you could just be like, no, I don't want to take any calls. And you just click the side, don't you? Yeah, but there's no side on an iPad. That's just volume. No, it's not real.
I don't know. You know, now that every all buttons are virtual. Michael Katz writes in. So anyway, thank you for the uh coconut thing. I think we we're well well on our way.
In Nastasia Proust. Yeah, thank you. Michael Katz writes in, good morning, Dave and Nastasia. My name is Michael Katz. Well, that's clear because I said your name is Michael Katz.
I am currently the coordinator, main teacher, lecturer, professional cooking course uh at Israel's largest cooking academy, the Dan Gourmet Culinary School. That is the name, the Dan Gourmet Culinary School. I wonder whether it's a guy named Dan or does Dan have a meaning. Probably Dan has a meaning. Yeah.
I've been listening to your show for some time and and I'm enjoying it. Well, that makes just you because Nastasi and I don't enjoy listening to it. You ever had to listen to our show? Only when it's funny and people tell me it's funny. And then you go and listen to it?
Yeah. But I don't listen when it's like like today. Wow, what a sloppy production to that. Oh my god. Dang.
Do you listen to it, Matt? What do you do sometimes? Really? I mean, you know, just to see if uh I like I was showing somebody in a car, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah.
When we had to do the um, when we had to do the like submit to the whatever it's called, uh I went and re-listened, or if someone says I was particularly mean to somebody or harsh, right? I'll re-listen to it and I'll be like, damn, that was. Which one did we submit? I don't know. We didn't do it.
Or who what was people's favorite? Do you remember? I don't know. But I re-listened to the Clara Wedding thing, and that was kind of rough, but I didn't re-listen to the recent one we just had with her on. Is she forgiving us yet?
She's staying with me. Well, you should invite her on, like in the city. I had I wanted her to come in today, and she said I'm busy. I know she's not because she's on my couch right now. Who was it?
Who was it that was here that was supposed to side with her but didn't? Rebecca. Yeah, Rebecca was here and was like, oh no, that's fancy face cream. I'm not gonna and then Claire said, I expect that from you, but not Rebecca. I mean, please.
Uh I'm organizing a conference in Tel Aviv that invites all the cooking teachers in Israel. The main topic of the conference is a dialogue between the industry and culinary teachers in Israel about uh what the what does the industry want us teachers to teach, and vice versa, what do we believe is the right thing to teach in today's cooking school agenda? My question is if you were in front of the audience, uh would uh would you think the cooking teachers of today should or should not teach? What do you think the teachers today should or should not teach? Should you stick to the classics?
Are the classics still relevant? And if so, how do you define what the classics are that still need to be taught? It's a bit of an abstract question, but if you have some input, that would be great. Well, interestingly, well, or maybe not. This was uh one of the main things that I had to contend with at the French Culinary Institute because I was the director of culinary technology, so my job was all new stuff, but I got to see the um curriculum there that was based, it well, not based, it was almost it was entirely the classics.
When Nils Norin came on, he did some updating to it, but still taught all of the classic uh things. And I think that uh I mean the part of the problem is is if you're going to like the French Culinary Institute, well, hell, it makes sense we're teaching you French cooking because it's got the word French right in the name, right? And then when they changed it to the International Culinary Center, like it still made sense because the story is is that the brigade system, which is you can fundamentally see as a kind of French restaurant style of cooking, is you know, that works no matter what kind of cooking you're eventually going to do. Now, and and to be honest, there are some kinds of techniques that you know, uh, if you learn to break down a chicken one way, you can learn to break it down another way. And so it, you know, it doesn't I think really matter which kind of culture's way of breaking down because there's there's for every human being on earth there's a different way to break down a chicken, right?
But I think it's really good to have a school teach a way to break down a chicken, then everyone becomes proficient at that because you know, part of the thing about going to a cooking school as opposed to cooking at home is that you've never at home uh probably broken down 30 chickens in a row. So you never get into kind of the muscle memory or you don't really understand how to process things the way a restaurant would process. That's the most important thing in the in the kind of in the cooking school, right? Is learning how to process things like a restaurant would process them. Um and you know, fitting into the kitchen system in a restaurant.
I mean, it's not really teaching them, you know, how to make the most I mean it you should teach them how to make the most delicious chicken, but I'm saying, like more importantly, is teaching them so that they can fit into a kitchen into a production schedule and break the stuff out, how to break down veg, how to, you know, in a fast, clean, neat way, all the different kinds, certain kind of cooking techniques, how they work. Um, and so I think that you know, even in within the rubric of the French Culinary Institute, like teaching those old classics really had a kind of place. And also a lot of these recipes and concepts and techniques have been around a long time and are time tested, and people enjoy them. So having them under your belt, I think is very useful as a cook, um, you know, no matter what you're gonna do later. And I think there are people, and I still think this is a problem, people jump to new techniques kind of too quickly, and they kind of poo-poo all the old techniques, and I think this is a fundamental mistake.
I think everybody, I think a well-rounded cook can should know all of it. Well, now you don't need to know new techniques to cook well because obviously people ate well in the old days, right? But I think using the knowing the new techniques and definitely knowing the kind of science, the why behind what you're doing, no matter which techniques you use. I mean, and that's the other mistake. People think that just because you think about kind of why things cook the way they do, and you think about the kind of you know, for lack of a better term, the science behind the cooking, that all of a sudden you have to do modern style cooking.
And that's not the case at all. I think it make you know, I think a confie is better if you think about why you're doing what you're doing, even if you use a completely traditional technique. And by the way, traditional technique confí is good, right? Everyone likes it. Do you like it?
Mm-hmm. Yeah, everyone likes it, I think. I think everyone likes it. Maybe not mad if he doesn't eat meat. Um but uh so I think that like learning the classics and teaching people a set of skills that's not necessarily based in what is here and now, I think is very useful and very good.
Now then the problem is, you know, nowadays, how do you choose kind of what that list is? And I think it depends on the s your particular school, what particular culture the people are coming from, and kind of what you what you want to teach them. Everyone in cooking school should know how to do all of the basic cooking techniques on a variety of things. You should teach them like how to do the miracle of moisture management on meats, fish, and veg in various cooking environments. And then if you want to hang them on a particular culture, I guess that's your prerogative.
Or if you want to go multicultural, that's your prerogative too. I think the issue is that when you take cooking instructors outside of their really their core zone, the nice thing about the FCI, French Culinary Institute, was that the majority of chefs work very classically French trained, and so the stuff they were teaching was in their bones and in their blood. And there is nothing quite like having someone teach something to people when it's like they're swimming through water. They're not like emulating something, they're not like a fish out of water trying to trying to teach something or teaching teaching some cooking technique or some recipe that you know they don't know what they're talking about. And so I think you have to like kind of look at your staff and look at kind of who you know who you're who your teachers are, and you want the people who are teaching to really be authorities on that, because I think at the end of the day, like having the authority as a teacher and really understanding every in and out of the thing that you're teaching provides the best learning experience for a student no matter what they're no matter what they're learning.
And so, you know, if like the other caller, if lotkas are in your blood, teach latkas, but don't teach latkas to someone if lotka's not in your blood, because how the hell didn't you know whether you've done a good job? You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. Uh all right. So let me see, we get we have time for the last question.
And then it's 105. And then classics, last time classics. You tell me, Stash. I don't think we have time for the last question, but I know that you're gonna say it's only gonna take me one minute. So I'll do it in one minute.
Okay. All right, timing is starting now. Jason in Milwaukee. Nastasia, uh, it's one of the few towns that you actually enjoyed visiting with me. You like in Milwaukee.
You're on a minute still. See how mean she is, even to Milwaukee, even though she loved that bar. What was the name of that bar? Apologies in advance to Jason. Yep.
Anyway. Well, my wife gets two city hams as a holiday gift for uh from her employer. Neither of us are fans of the city ham, but yet she insists we use it for our family Christmas dinners. Uh I have not found any interesting recipes from searching online, so I'm hoping that you can provide a creative alternative to the normal, cook it a while and glaze it. Well, you don't have to cook it, you just have to heat it and glaze it.
Uh traditional approach, I've got a smoker and a circulator along with uh normal kitchen appliances, Jason and Milwaukee. Well, circulator is a good way to heat a city ham without uh overcooking it if you do want to reheat it. And you can also reheat slices of it uh in vac bags uh very well without losing too much moisture. But I'm gonna go ahead and say that you should freeze one of them because you're not gonna eat it all right away. And have you considered, if you're in Milwaukee, I'm surprised that you haven't.
I guess you have to go a little further out. The ham ball or the ham meat loaf, where you're grinding the city ham into ground ham, and then you're mixing it typically 50-50 with fresh pork or even with other meats like chicken or even like uh beef or or whatever. But so you can either make meat loafs that way, ham meatloaves, which are good, or ham meatballs and ham balls not only sound fun to say ham balls but uh they're pretty tasty too now you're not gonna go through a lot of it so you're still gonna have to freeze some but then you would uh have at least used some of this ham at the Christmas dinner so that's my solution how close I don't know that oh I didn't I mean you know you chumps it's two it's been two because I said 105 is 107 now but you don't know when it would change from 105 to 106. When I said it's 105? No she makes it up.
Nastasia loves to make stuff up. We can go back and look at it later. Oh yeah I'll I'll tell you. Yeah yeah okay yeah I want it down to the Nastasia when we were doing the uh the thing learned what the clap is for when you're shooting videos so she should have done a clap beforehand so you could just go look for the spike on the on the thing it wouldn't have to do any wouldn't have to do any uh what's it called you guys thought they were just doing that for fun a video? I Nastasia kept on Nastasi kept we were in front of a sink so Nastasi kept putting her hands like down below the sink and clapping.
I'm like yo how the hell am I supposed to sink your hand clap if you were better at it you would have just done it Dave. She wanted to do it I wanted to do it. She wanted to do oh you mean just sink it anyway. Yeah sink it anyway make it work. Sing it make it work okay classics just sit there frame by frame you jerk.
108 Classics in the field yeah so today's classics in the field comes from the fact that many and we're about ham. We're still talking about ham. So it makes sense that I dealt with uh the question from Milwaukee. Uh many many years ago I did an exhibition on hams uh when I was originally at the idea for the Museum of Food and Drink, back when it was called the American Museum of Food. And I went to the New York Public Library and I took ever I went to their main research branch and I look at every book, every single book, I read every single book that has it had to do with ham.
And I found a book, which at the time the internet of buying books was still young and there were no print-on-demand books. So all of the books that you were able to buy on the internet at the time, which was BookFinder, which is still there, were like the first quality books. And the best book in the entire New York public library on the subject uh, which is a great library, people, on the subject of ham, is a book called Bacon and Hams, which was published in 1917 by a guy named George Nichols. Now, uh this book, I'll just tell you in advance, like uh the Cooking Issues blog, you can still find it's linked to on Wikipedia. So if you look up bacon and hams and go to Wikipedia, you can still uh look up my blog post because Wikipedia used it as the main source for the article.
But the thing that is most cool about this, which I'll talk about in in a minute, is not available anymore. My old flash animation from you know 2009 or whatever it was is no longer on the internet. So I'm gonna try to resurrect it somehow and maybe put it on my Instagram so you guys can see it. But this book was written by a guy named George Nichols, who was a he was a seller of kind of bacon and hams, bacon written large. So bacon for him was an entire half side of a pig, a flitch as they call it, uh cured.
He was English. And this book, most technical books at the time, or books that were not written for regular consumers, uh were terrible, so boring. Uh this guy loved his subject so much, he imbues it with such kind of like a verve and a zaz that you can't help but reading it all the way through. I'll give you some examples of some awesome stuff that's in this book. So the frontist piece of the book is back in the day, in like the you know, late 18, early 1900s, there was a huge set of uh anatomical books.
And in those anatomical books, to try to teach you anatomy, you would open it, and then uh you would have pieces of the anatomy that would fold in and out. So you would you there's a picture of a pig, and then that pig though is a piece of paper that's glued, and then kind of like a pop-up book, you fold the pig over, and when you fold the pig over, you can see the muscles that are on the pig. And then you fold the muscles up and you can see the interior organs. And then have you seen this, Doz? Yep.
And then you see them on the blog post. And when you buy this book on the internet, it's super rare uh to find it with the front piece still good. So, yeah, so you have the main pig, the skeleton, the circulatory system, all annotated, which is very much in the style of the old anatomical books of the day, down to the intestine, small and large, the lungs, the heart, just a marvel. So I'm gonna try to put this back up on the internet so you can um see it. The other famous picture from it uh is a picture of the author as a side of bacon for Halloween.
What do you think for Halloween? For some party, some costume ball that he went to, which is just amazing. Then he goes through kind of a history of Hams, including a history of the British pig, which is very short but still quite good. It's no you at the pig, which is another classic pig book. Uh, but it's it's very good.
But then from an American standpoint, what's interesting is that very soon after The Jungle by Upton Sinclair. By the way, Upton Sinclair's the jungle, uh, well known for the book that kind of grossed everyone out. Upton Sinclair thought he was writing a book that was gonna galvanize people for the worker uh against kind of capital, make them treat the workers and these plants better, but instead everyone was like, ew, that's just so grouse, talking about the meat packing industry in Chicago. And so the only result it had wasn't shifting things towards a you know more worker-friendly or more communistic vein, but really was just to try to enact some laws that kind of made food less gross, less rat hair, less roaches ground into your sausage, right? So anyway, Nichols goes and visits only a couple of years after this, but has a very different set of eyeballs and has an amazing set of pictures, some of which, and by the way, you can view the book with the exception of the fold-out front piece, frontest piece, which it only one thing is available.
You can go to Hath Eye Trust. It's available to search online, so you can look at the pictures. There's an amazing set of pictures from the stockyards and the slaughtering plants in Chicago at the time, which are unparalleled. You would never get to see images like this of a modern plant, including what they call the wheel of fortune, which is a giant wheel that when they when they kill the pigs and they gambled them on the back, it would lift the pigs up onto the conveyor rail system. Just amazing, amazing pictures.
And then, as a bonus, as an extra bonus, there are a bunch of hand drawings of how to debone and uh take the bones out of different ham cuts. And these also are masterpieces in their own right. This book is something that everybody should at least look at. And if you can find a collectible copy with the frontest piece, go look for it. Bacon and Hams, today's classic in the field, cooking issues.
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