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Sign up at great growalong.com. Hello, welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the Heritage Radio Network every Tuesday from whenever to whenever I'm on the lower east side of Manhattan. We got uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez up uh in uh Connecticut on the Long Island Sound. How are you doing, Stas?
Good. Good. We got Matt in the Rhode Island booth. Matt, how you doing? Doing great, doing great.
We got uh John who's in uh East. You're in you're in Lyme right now, right? You're in Lyme, Connecticut. We're a kid, we're a New England heavy uh uh show today, but I'm gonna bring it back to New York because we have everybody's favorite cooking issues guest, Peter Kim. How are you doing, Peter?
Everyone's favorite. Well, he's not a punching bag. Always a punching bag. Now, here's the thing. So Peter Kim, you're you're uh you're in Brooklyn right now, right?
Yep. And since we haven't had you on since the pandemic, so when the pandemic started, the last time uh we had Peter on the show, there was not a pandemic yet, and we were furiously at the Museum of Food and Drink trying to uh open African slash American, which is uh our exhibition uh at the museum on um kind of the the the contributions both known and unknown of uh of of black folk to American food ways. And uh and yeah, and then the whole world fell apart. Peter had Peter had already Peter's plan, right? Peter right or wrong was to you were gonna open this, you were gonna open the the exhibition, and then you're moving away from uh the museum to go become the head of um the head of the food program there at at Pinterest, but you had like timed it so that like you could like I've worked for years, I'm gonna get this exhibition open, we're gonna do it, and then the whole bottom kind of fell out of the world, right?
Yeah. So instead, Zhang and I were like duct taping up like boxes in front of the quilt to keep the sunlight from making it fade, and like we were like turbo trying to like basically we were like, we don't know when somebody's gonna be able to come back in this room again, and so we're gonna basically do whatever we can to like preserve this thing. As far as I know, I mean uh it's more or less like we left it, isn't it, Zhong? I think more stuff has been stacked in there because the Africa's underneath something in the space. And the seven pallets of shoebox lunches came or you know, lunch boxes came.
Oh my god. Well, it's such a crazy time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, crazy uh is another word for bad, right? When's it opening?
Like when's it actually gonna open? Oh, geez, Stas. Jeez Luis. Oh, we we really you don't know. Well, look, a lot of things, a lot of things have to happen for it to open, and you know, I'm only one person, so it's you know, Oh no, I'm just saying like ballpark.
Oh, next year. Twenty twenty-two? Yeah. That's what that that's the year that comes after 2021. Yeah, Jesus.
Yeah. Because the like the problem is is that like everything has to work for everybody, for all the all the stakeholders. And the way that the space So we're really in the weeds on stuff that half the people listening probably have no idea what we're talking about. The Museum of Food and Drink, like, like uh it Peter started Peter was the founding, whatever. He he started the museum's actual programming.
Like I had this idea many years ago. I tried to start it, I failed. Nastasi and I did a fundraiser where we met Peter. Peter quit this is the the short story. Peter quit his job as a white shoe, but white shoe, who the hell wears white shoes at a white shoe law firm?
What is that? What is white shoe? What the hell's it? Why is it called that? Yeah.
It's crazy, right? I mean, like if you wore a white shoe to work, people would be like, the hell, right? Right. Yeah. Uh so he's at this white shoe law firm.
Uh, and we'll get into this, we'll get into this uh later, because it's well well known that like being a lawyer was kind of like you didn't really want to be a lawyer, right? That was to please your parents. Uh I know. I I was interested in studying the law and being a lawyer, maybe just not working at a firm like that. But you know, it was good to it's good to cut your teeth at a corporate firm like that to kind of understand that world too.
Yeah. And so he's like, I'm gonna quit my job and uh, you know, I'm gonna actually make this museum happen, which is what he did. Uh and we Nastasi and I both told him not to do it because, you know, we were like, we don't know. Is it gonna work? Boop beep, boop boop.
And you know, also you weren't so happy on the home front uh back in Illinois with your parents. Uh well I guess they weren't in Illinois at that time. But you know what I mean? Like uh it was it was a source of problems, let's say. Yes.
My dad and I were not in on good terms for a few years there. Yeah. But that's another story. So anyway, so like he does this uh he he basically he makes it happen the museum and then uh we we do the African American exhibit where it was like it was supposed to be it's gonna be you know great. But anyway so he negotiated with this place called the Africa Center, which is where the exhibit's gonna be and you know we could have actually Peter we should have you back on sometime just to talk about now that you know you you've kind of like put a a cap on that portion of your of your career of what it's like to start something like that.
You know what I mean? Like 'cause it's just a nutty nutty thing that you you you you know had to do like from passing out on a on a on a you know a cherry picker at three in the morning trying to like hang lights to you know negotiating negotiating with people because everyone everyone who tries to and and wow wow j John's dog doesn't like doesn't like putting things up at 2 a.m. AM anyway. Um so yeah no I mean, look, well, first of all, I would be remiss to not say there were a a lot of other people who worked on this uh along, you know, with me. Um, but yes.
Uh but I'm not talking to them right now. Yes. I would say uh yes, it's a lot of self-flagellation to get something like this off the ground. Uh starting up anything, anybody who started a business knows it's hard. I'd say starting a nonprofit is another level of interestingness, and then starting a nonprofit museum that requires like a brick and mortar presence is another level of of fun.
Well, I think it's like also like, you know, it's a brick and mortar thing, but it's also a creative endeavor. And I think you know, the the corners that you have to cut and the decisions that you have to make on the fly and then people hold you to later are just crazy. This is why, like, this is why like criticism in general I find so kind of upsetting. Um, because it's kind of like, I mean, uh look, a consumer of a museum event, a consumer of a drink or a dish or of a podcast, they shouldn't have to care. In fact, specifically, you know, I tell myself this all the time: nobody cares like what your problems are.
That's not what's important. Like you're asking their time or their money, and so you owe everything to them and they owe nothing to you. It's kind of like being a parent. Like, you owe everything to your kids and they don't really owe anything to you. And that's why you just take all the problems and you just push them down deep inside.
Just keep pushing. Yeah. That's my advice. Let the hate flow. Yeah, but it does like, but when critics, you know, don't kind of give any credit at all for the how hard it is to make anything happen.
It kind of ticks me a little bit. But anyway, so that said, uh, to back to Nastasia, uh, we can't the the fact that we're in a space at the Africa Center means that we cannot uh open unless we're at full capacity. We can't guarantee full capacity until 2022 because it takes X number of months to open something to decide you're gonna open it. So the CDC only yesterday came out and said that we might be back to normal by the end of the year, and it's just not enough time to flip all of the switches. So there you have it.
Um that's how uh stuff works when you're a scrappy uh startup. Anyway, so Peter went on to do uh Pinterest, but the reason we're having him on the show now is he is the host of his own uh hit podcast, Counterjam. You want to talk to us about it? Yeah, I mean, essentially, yeah, podcast uh on Food 52 network, by the way. Yep, it's on the Food 52 Podcast Network, and it's a show that looks at culture through food and music.
And so uh the basic gist of it is every episode takes on one cultural identity. Uh that could be a you know something like Korean American cultural identity, or it might even be a place, so like New York City. Um and then I think of it as sort of presenting various data points. So you're just showing the perspectives of two or three people from that community, and then also playing music uh that has been created by a couple artists from that community as well. And so um, yeah, I mean it's it's been it's been a lot of fun to put together, and I you know, I think I realized at a certain point there weren't a lot of food and music podcasts out there, or actually really any music podcast that actually played music, and I know why.
It's because legally it is a pain in the butt to play music on a podcast. And uh then I did what of course uh what I do, and I just took the on the sort of masochistic task of going through like getting licensing for all the music and uh negotiating each individual song. Oh, so you don't have like a blanket BMI asscat license, you have to go and like individually do each song? Yeah, yeah. So that's the thing about podcasting, it doesn't work with those like BMI ass cap licenses because the shows are downloaded.
And so they haven't figured this out yet? No. And so it's a known thing in the podcasting world. So when you hear music on a podcast, either A, they're doing it uh just hoping that they won't get busted or that they can do a fair use uh defense, or they're doing what I do, which is tracking down the licensing, and it's not even just one license. Usually every song is owned by at least two entities, and sometimes three or four.
And so um, yeah, because the public publishing gets doled out to like a billion different people, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So uh it is it has been uh somewhat masochistic. The way I've kind of gotten around it is I focus on independent artists, or I work I'll get music from guests, and they're more willing to help me jump through the hoops uh because they're on the show. So most recent episode has Femi Kuti and Made Kuti, and so they basically connected me with all the people I need to talk to to get all the different licenses.
Yeah. Wow. So I didn't realize so it's amazing that you know, even in your second time around, which I appreciate, that Peter so flagellates at all points in his life and never learns. So in this way, like we're all on this podcast that same way. Do you think that's a good thing?
You think it's a good way to be? Absolutely, you know what? I you know what I say, and this is what I sometimes said at MoFed, uh, was you know, if this were easy, everybody else would have done this, right? And so you have to kind of I mean there's a reason why there weren't a ton of food museums out there. And so I think there is something to looking for hard paths because that inherently means that probably nobody else is doing it.
And so you just have to be willing enough or crazy enough to do that. Yeah. And also it's not the show, so the show, the counter jam, right, it's not like uh so you'll have you'll have like three guests, let's say, but it's not like a string of interviews. You kind of cut them back into each other. So you'll go back and forth between the different sets of interviews, kind of tracing a through line of questioning on on your part.
Uh, and like, you know, for instance, you'll maybe you'll have some people who are in New York, some people who are in Nigeria, some people who are in LA, maybe not in the same show. But then, you know, you're you're cutting back and forth and then like punctuating it with music. Is that pretty much the the the stickity shtick? Yeah, all yeah, so that's also masochistic. Essentially, I just like get get the interviews and then listen to everything and then try to pull out themes, and I think about like mapping out the episode after that.
So um, yeah, it's it takes time. But it's fun. Yeah. So the very first one, of course, you decide to stay kind of close to home. You had your mom's on, which I thought was kind of kind of cool.
And you did Korean as your first as your first as your first thing. And by the way, this show, like the format of this show, kind of if you need to know what Peter is like actually kind of like, like that it's perfect, it's perfect Peter, right? Because it combines a like the the things that he likes, but also what he's been working on for years, which is kind of using food as a touchstone to talk about culture in general and kind of how people grew up. And that's really what the museum is about, and I think that's why Peter, you know, was kind of interested in in in that project anyways, food as a way to food as a way to discuss us as people, us as you know, as parts of our own culture and how to explore other cultures. You say that's fair.
Absolutely. Yeah. So his first one was, of course, his own, and he had um Roy Choi from from LA and he had uh he had his mom and and he had uh Margaret Chow on. So it's it was pretty funny. And what I learned most was that I didn't know Peter you're part of this customization.
You're part of this like I'm gonna just use what like regular like you know white whitebred Americans call call them all ramen but ramen customization right so you want to first go into the difference between ramen and ramen and and like describe describe uh I didn't realize you were part of this fat. I feel like this is a huge not a fat but it's it's a huge thing outside of the community now. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. No, I mean instant ramyan is it's I mean I've probably I've eaten many times my body weight over the course of my lifetime.
I actually remember the very first time I had instant ramyan it was Sapro Ichiban beef flavor. I freaking love this stuff. Jean can attest to the fact that I ate this like maybe 50% of the time for like lunch um at work. But yeah and then I mean I think for me like it's one of the ways I kind of learned to cook was by starting with instant ramyan. And of course instant ramyan is the Korean version of instant ramen uh which you know uh Nissan being the most well known brand in in the Japanese um market but Koreans have instant ramyan and I would say the main thing that distinguishes instant ramyan from Japanese instant ramen is the spiciness of the of the broth and then I would say typically you have a larger gauge noodle on the the Korean instant ramen than on the Japanese instant ramen.
You're a larger gauge noodle. That's right. That's my that's my nickname. Um and so then yeah, I mean then like the the great thing is that you can kind of like hack it in lots of different ways and um and you can do it super quickly. So I can make what I love is that I can think about instant ramyan and then I could have the bowl ready to eat within five minutes, um, which is pretty great.
And so yeah, I mean I have a whole like flow chart in my head of like do I do a dry noodle or a wet noodle? And if it's wet, like do I want a cream like a fatty broth or a non-fatty broth? That's my nickname. Wet noodle's my nickname. Um but tell us you have this you have this like kind of like uh fusion nightmare that's your favorite, this kind of carbonara one that you were talking to Roy Choi about.
And he said he was he said he was gonna go out and try it. I wonder whether he did. Why don't you describe your favorite? He actually sent me he sent me the picture right after the show. He made it and he loved it.
All right, so give me the give it to me. So here's the deal. Like basically you get the water bowling in your water kettle, take the bowl in the bowl, crack an egg into the bowl, drop uh two slices of American cheese into the bowl, take your powder packet of the the soup packet, put about two-thirds in there. You don't need as much because you're not using any water. Um, and then uh reserve the little noodle bits and reserve the dried vegetable, and then get your noodles boiling, and then it's gonna take about two and a half minutes to or to three minutes to get to your like perfect al dente texture, and then take the noodles out, drop them into the bowl in which you've put all this stuff, and then just mix that around.
Oh, pardon me, I know that this is a family show. Mix that stuff around. Peter's show is not a family show, by the way. There are more F drums being b uh dropped in Peter's show than you know. Yeah, and so then you know the egg, you beat the egg and it and then the the American cheese melts, and then there's like the noodle water that's clinging to the noodles, and it all comes together um and turns into a sort of sauce.
And then uh and then you I top it, and this is what I say is the pièce de resistance. Uh top it with the dried noodle bits, and you t you and you top it also with the dried vegetables. It just to add some texture. And voila, you've got basically kind of like I put in very heavy quotes, uh Carbonara um using uh instant ramyan. Yeah, yeah.
So that's the that's the Peter Kim. So when you make that at home, just know that you're making the Peter Kim. That's all I'm saying. And Nastasia, I don't know if you're you can eat it in like three slurps. Yeah.
I don't know if you realize this, Nastasia. Tell me if you did, but did you know that we not only have Peter Kim on the show, we have DJ Omega 60. I I know, I remember. I remember DJ Omega. That was how he contacted us to work for the museum before it was a museum.
That email. What? That email address was Omega 60? Then how is he not in your phone? Peter Kim Peter's still Peter Lawyer.
Peter Lawyer, but why wasn't it Peter Omega 60? I didn't take that seriously. Wow. Well, I don't think I ever explained to you what Omega 60. You did, you did eventually.
But yeah. Oh yeah. Still didn't take it seriously. Yeah. So Peter on his very first podcast, Peter ended it, I'm sure, because you know, also you could get the rights for it.
Now now I know that also you're building your life around what you can get the rights for. Played like some of his uh just coming back from the state coming back from Cameroon to the States, uh his uh his DJ song Alphaville, right? Yep. Yeah. We don't have rights for it, so we can't play it.
But if you want to hear, for all of you who have for years enjoyed Peter coming on the show, you should listen at the very least, to uh that first episode, so you can hear Peter's mom talking to him and also uh listen to uh Peter Peter as as Omega 60. Yeah. But um And there's a whole story behind the name, which I won't go into now, it's on the episode. But I I remember, you know, it's so funny. Like I remember at one point, like, and I've never really talked to people much, I I don't talk to people much about my music, but there was one time in Philly when I finally was like ready to tell somebody about Omega 60, and their reaction was, oh, you mean like the fatty acid?
And that's when I like I shrank back into my shell and I was like, I'm never telling anybody again. All right, so what while we're still talking about the show, because I you know I there's a I have a couple of questions, mostly about Ingira. Actually, let's just do the question first and we'll go back to the show. So two different people, Robert Lax and uh Capri Sun, I remember Capri Sun, uh, wrote in and said that they saw that you were making uh Injira and they like to make some. Now, again, I listeners to the show, peop people who know Peter will know that he not only has a connection with Cameroon from when he was in the Peace Corps, but also with um Ethiopia, uh, where he used to go on the regular because his wife was stationed there at the UN for years.
Uh and so you did Injira, so I have two questions. Can you talk about how you make it and where you get your Tef? That's from Robert Lax and well, and the exact same question basically from Capri Son. So you have two people want to know about Injera and Tef. Yeah, yeah.
Um so uh describe Injira first for those who don't know, by the way. Uh yeah, so Injera is a fermented crep like uh bread, and it is a staple of Injera. It's made with Tef, which is uh, as I understand it, the world's smallest grain. Um it has a very sour flavor owing to the fermentation process, and um, and then it has the flavor of teff, which is pretty distinctive. I don't even know how to describe it.
Um I feel like people like to use the word nutty for everything, but I don't like that. So um it tastes like teff. I know exactly. So it tastes like teff. Um and so if you want to learn it, then try tasting teff.
Um and uh and the way it's doesn't taste like whole wheat, it doesn't taste like buckwheat, right? It doesn't taste like any of those things. Yeah, yeah. It's just got its own flavor. Um and and so uh yeah, I mean, and then it's you probably know, you know, it's it's you when you eat it, it's it's you lay it flat on the on a platter, and then you put all these various soups and stews on top of it.
Um and so I in terms of sourcing Teff for the Injera, I mean, I have I had kind of an advantage because uh I had a big bag of Teff that we bought um that my wife and I bought in Ethiopia on our last trip there. And so I was I've just been using that. Um and I haven't really had to use any Tef I've sourced in the US for a while. So um so yeah, uh I don't I can't help you there. Um and then in terms of the overall process.
When you hold it, when you buy it, is it like is it like tiny like amaranth or like or like or like small millet or it did they do you buy a ground in Ethiopia already? Uh I bought it ground in Ethiopia. Okay, okay. And how long does it last? Um yeah, you know, I don't know, but like this in this case I I used the last of it and it was maybe two years out, and it was still good.
So anyway, um and then yeah, I mean like the process is like you you just I mean it's really simple actually. Uh it's simple in theory, harder hard to execute, but uh you just let you know add water and let it ferment, and then um it gets like this sour smell to it. And the time, as you all know, will depend on your temperature and you know the particular teft that you're using. Uh but figure three or four days, and then um and then yeah, when it's ready to go, the big thing is it's really hard to cook and keep intact. Um and then what you want to do is you want it to cook without like browning on the bottom and being but you want it fully cooked on the top, and that can be a little bit tricky.
Uh the biggest piece of advice I'd have for people is don't try on your first time to do it on your st on your stovetop, um, but start with an electric crep maker or something that provides a really even low heat. Uh because on the stove top it's just a nightmare. The just the the even the small variations and how your pan heats up just screws up the whole thing. So originally, like way back in the day, was it done with a ground product or was it wet ground like the way that you would do like uh Idley or Dosa better? Do you know?
I have no idea. And I had kind of difficult results to get it to work exactly the way I wanted, but I wasn't using a wet grinder. I wonder whether you could wet grind whole teft. Because what's easier to get here in the States? Do the the most of the African markets here are primarily West African markets, right?
Well, yeah, in New York City. But if you go to DC, I mean you're good. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah.
Oh, so New York City is not really a good Ethiopian market. Alright. But like there and then it's fairly easy to get the uh the ground teff? Yeah, I mean, Bob's Red Mill sells ground teff. I mean, it good?
It's uh I've not tried it, but uh I know that they do sell it. And I I don't think it's particularly hard to find Teff now. Um super expensive though, right? Or it used to be. Is it still?
I don't know. I don't know. Like I said, I mean I've had the good fortune of just having the stuff I bought in Ethiopia. And are you a hundred percent Tef person or are you a 50-50 split? What do you do?
Oh man, eat definitely 100%. And that's also one thing I'd say is if you go to an Ethiopian restaurant, um, then this is actually a pretty universal practice across Ethiopian restaurants in the US, as far as I can tell. Um your injera you're gonna generally get at an Ethiopian restaurant in the US will be only partially Teff. And if you want the Tef, you have to call 24 hours in advance and they will make the Tef for you. Um the Tef and Jira for you.
Um and so if you're thinking of going to a restaurant, think of it a day in advance and call ahead and ask for the Tef in Jira. You have to pre-order a certain quantity. Uh, but it's definitely worth it. And in general that works like most Ethiopian restaurants, Eritrean restaurants will do that for you? Pretty much everyone that I have come across does that, yeah.
Did you have to bust out some you could do it in English? Like you don't have to know anything, you don't have to be special, like no, no, no. No. I and I think it's just, yeah, I mean, it's uh I think in general, I well, I don't know, I'm not even gonna hypothesize as to why they all are able to do it, but it it is the case. Yeah, so so try it.
Now for those that have never had it before, I've only had a hundred percent uh Tef in Jira once, and it was it was extremely sour. Like I assume that it doesn't always need to be as sour as the one that that I had. It's but it's definitely worthwhile to sample that, right? Don't you think so? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think that's like to me, like the having the super sour teff in jira is the is the perfect counterpoint to the stews. Um and definitely worth trying because that's what a lot of the stuff you'll find in Ethiopia is like. Um and yeah, it might not be your bag, um, but then if you're making it at home, you can just simply ferment it less. Right. Now do you think I have no idea.
I would I would guess you would have majority non Teff in your injury. Based on the flavor of what I've had in, you know, n basically you know New H New Haven and New York uh Ethiopian restaurants, I would say yeah, the vast majority of it is uh wheat flour. Like the good percentage of it. You know what I mean? Right, Peter, wouldn't you say?
Yeah. Yeah. I mean test also a lot more money. And you know, back in the day it was rarer, right? So there was a monetary reason not to do it.
And then I'm sure there's some we don't think Americans will like it kind of a situation as well, right? Yeah. I mean I'm sure like you I I don't know what the wholesale market is like for Tef, but you know, you can get flour for dirt cheap wholesale. Yeah. Yeah.
Um but you should try every everyone should everyone should get the full everyone should get the full the full Tef a at least once. Uh all right, now back to back to your show for a minute. Uh so one of the through lines I noticed was and it's something I guess that we didn't we didn't talk about a lot um you know, you and I personally we were hanging out was kind of this feeling of being embarrassed by the by the food of your own culture. And it's a it's it comes up repeatedly in the in the in the podcasts um and it's kind of a an interesting thing. It's an interesting thing to to think about.
You want to talk about that as a through line? Yeah, I mean, I think that is like a recurring theme on the show is talking about what folks ate when they were kids. And, you know, I think, you know, it's it's a it's a remarkably common experience that for uh immigrant families, when you're a kid, you eat the stuff that your family gives you, and your family, if especially if they're recent immigrants, is gonna make you stuff that's uh is what they would have eaten in their home country. And that's gonna be in stark contrast to what everybody else around you is eating. And uh, and it's something you'll just hear over and over.
Like Korean kids are embarrassed of the smell of kimchi in their home when their friends come over, Indian kids are embarrassed about the smell of the various curries and chutneys that their parents are making when they're when their friends come over, um, and on down the line. And so, but what's interesting is of course, in generally speaking, as you get older, you start to you know realize there's nothing to be embarrassed about this, and in fact, you start owning it. And on top of that, I would say food culture in the US has shifted such that there is a larger acceptance of a wider spectrum of flavors, uh, even among people who don't aren't from the cultures that have those flavors. And so um, and so yeah, I mean, I think I think um it is it is one of these things that is kind of a through line. Yeah, yeah.
Uh yeah, Dan Dan, well, you and Dan the automator. So like some of the people he has on, he has Dan the Automator, you know, Dan Nakamura. He was saying that, you know, he specifically thinks that kind of at least his generation, his parents' generation, self-repression of their own culture, which extends to certain parts of the foods is due to the internment camps, right? That was one of the things that that that he mentioned. You you want to talk about about about that?
Yeah, so that that episode is actually one of my favorites because the three guests, and this almost just happened by chance. Um, one guest is a a woman who immigrated herself to Vancouver, uh Yumi Nagashima. And then the other guest was this rapper from North Carolina whose family immigrated. His parents immigrated from Japan and opened a restaurant in North Carolina. And then Dan is somebody who's been around and he's like third or fourth generation Japanese American.
And Yumi of course eats Japanese food all the time every day. So it's like kind of similar to me. And then Dan, it's like I didn't grow up eating Japanese food really. And so um right desire to conform. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And so to me like I mean I've obviously thought a lot about like well I didn't say obviously but I have thought a lot about how uh horrific the internment camps the idea the fact that that happened is all that is but I had never really thought about the effect on culture, honestly, and that was interesting. And so and then the the episode that we haven't uh talking about yet is the one where you you do Nigerian food. You have on uh you have on Ego Noden, the comedian, and uh which which was funny because you're like lobbying a bunch of stuff at her, and like some of the stuff that you know you like from when you were there, stuff that's clinic classic, she doesn't like, which was kind of hilarious. Right. Um but you wanna you wanna you want to talk about you want to talk about your your connection?
Well, I will say something one thing first of all, because he he brings this up. So Peter Kim, Peter Kim, he when you know, after he graduated college, he went to the Peace Corps, he was in Cameroon, right? But you were you say you were on the border, like the the the neighbor the village you were in was kind of near the border with right? So it's like you feel like you're yeah, you feel you feel like you had exposure to kind of like uh food from that region, and also at the beginning of the show you mentioned that you know it's it's a kind of a false border anyway, right? Like the the country borders over there are all you know false borders anyway, and so you you feel like you know, you have you know, some you're connected somewhat to Nigerian food.
And um, so you you when you were in the you know, over there working, like one of the things you were doing was setting up like art education, right, for kids. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And Peter Kim, and you you might not know this, but I wish we could post this on the on our I know where you're going with this. Yeah.
Peter Kim has on his phone, and it's available within 13 seconds of asking him at any time, possibly the greatest artwork that's ever been made. It's it's um, you know, for those of you that for those of you that are, you know, here in New York City, you can go right now to the Metropolitan Museum of Art and see the Goya uh print and drawing exhibition, which is by the way, amazing. And I love I love Goya because like the kind of uh depth of kind of just how awful humans can be, but also kind of pathos and how like just weird humans can be. Like I think Goya is one of the greatest artists at just representing that, at just kind of like the holy crap of of life. Uh and you know, it's especially, you know, and if all you know about Francisco Goya is like, you know, the you know, small rich children in like red outfits, then you're really kind of missing out, I think, on the greatest part of one of my favorite artists.
Anyway, but this drawing that one of your students did is almost like a Goya, like a Goya print, like one of the capricos or something. It's like it's amazing drawing. And you want to describe this drawing, Peter? So this so what what I did in Cameroon was I paired public health education with art classes. So the kids were learning how to draw, but they'd also learn about the health issues associated with whatever they're learning to draw.
And in this case, the person was learning about um yeah, diarrhea and uh I can't remember what it was exactly, but um something where the symptom was diarrhea. And so he drew uh depiction of a man squatting and having the most horrific explosive diarrhea you've ever seen, with like complete with flies you know, swimming around and like grimace on the face and the whole thing. And I will say that okay, the image is pretty remarkable, but I think Dave's reaction to that was even more remarkable because if you know Dave, it's like 90% of the time you fly something by him, you're like, eh, okay, whatever. Eh, yeah, whatever. And then like you put this drawing of a guy having diarrhea in front of Dave, and suddenly he's like, what is this masterpiece?
And then like you had this weird fascination with it. I mean, it is it is an amazing drawing, but um, I don't know that I ever really would have held it up as this sort of like uh emblematic example of of um I don't know what, but yeah. Well, it's just this guy is having a terrible moment. Yeah. And then it's just captured, right?
And so like he's not even like he has no like it's it's a person. So Nastasia, you like this picture too, right? I don't really remember it. What? What?
So if you look if you look at his at his eyes, right? He is a he he's a he's a person, right? So he has his own thoughts and dreams, and he's not happy about what's happening to him. But all of his agency in life has been removed. Like all of it.
He has no more agency, and he's just like a vehicle for his butt being set on spray. And so it's it's just it's just like this image of like resignation and debasement that's a big thing. Yeah, but Dave, I was talking to somebody about this a couple days ago about how about this picture? No, about how when you have to go like that and it's like that, you you become an animal. Like I when you're like this person has thoughts and hopes and dreams, like that's all of us.
Like when that happens to you. That's what makes it a great picture. But if you look if you look at this guy's if you yeah, but if you look at the guy's eyes, also like you never know, like maybe he has c cholera, maybe he's gonna die. Who knows? Because he he didn't even make it to like a bathroom or whatever.
He's just out there on spray, like with with like flies out. You you you don't know, like, you know, you don't know what the future holds for this person. You know what I mean? And it's it's all it's oral and formal analysis, David. Yeah, Columbia, Columbia.
I know we're doing like an art critique on this. I have you know, I'm a trained MFA folks. I get to say whatever I won't. But uh oh yeah. Well I I can I'm happy to share this image, um, and you you can put it out on on Twitter so folks can uh can see the the wonder and beauty of this.
It's the flies, yeah. Well you have permission from the artist. You said you kept in contact with this person, right? Oh, I guess you know what? You're right.
This is something we know. I will have to we'll have to ask him about that. Yeah, there's there's the trained MFA talking about do we have the rights on the art? Anyway. Uh yeah.
So uh by the way, by the way, uh in that episode, Peter Kim said the most Peter Kim thing ever, Nastasia. You'll I think you get he said, There's something so satisfying about the tactile sensation of manipulating a doughy ball. I rewound and listened to him saying that like three times because he is talking about uh fufu. You want to talk about you want to talk fufu and all the various fufus? Yeah, so um fufu is it's uh yeah, I mean it's it's pounded starch or a porridge that's um you know it can so it can be a pounded starch like yams or cassava, or it can be a porridge made from you know grains uh mixed with water.
And what's what's what's common about foo foo, whatever the ingredient is, um, is that it's essentially ends up being a lump of starch that you uh rip little pieces off of with your hand, and then you manipulate the doughy bowl in your hand and then you dip it into a stew and eat it that way. And you know, and I say this on the show, but like it's it's inherently a neutral uh staple. I mean it's not like it's not full of flavor, but it's the whole the it's the point of it is to be something that you scoop up sauce with. So it can be it can be more than a lot of things. I hate it when people like this foo fufu as being as being bland because I'm like, that's the that's the point.
It's like rice or like anything that's just like a a a plain like staple. What's that? But but it can be more or less sour as well, though, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
So you can do it with fermented cassava, and then you're gonna get a little more of a sour flavor, for example. Um like neutral, like I neutral is such a bad term for any grain product, right? I mean, it's like does anyone actually has anyone ever come home to a house where someone has cooked rice and not think that rice has like a thing? You know what I mean? Like grains have their own smell, their own taste.
Yeah, no? Absolutely. You know, of course it has its flavor, but I've seen people where they will blast fufu for being flavorless, and sure it every fufu has a flavor, of course, um, like any other kind of staple, but it's not like flavorful like the stew that you're supposed to eat it with is. Right. So anyway, but I will say that I mean I do love foo fu.
Um I think the general mode of eating is something I find very enjoyable. It is something I ate a lot of while I was in Cameroon, and then I will occasionally make um at home when especially if I go to any kind of West African restaurant, I'll always opt for the fufu. Um it's it's nice. I mean, like you just yeah, I mean, there's a motion you do with the ball of fufu in your hand, and then you turn it into a little scoop, at least I do. Um and I love it.
And what would you say about the tactile sensation of manipulating that doughy ball? How would you categorize it? I think you can I think anybody can relate with this. Like you have a like a soft squishy thing in your hand, and you oh god, this is gonna go in the wrong direction. But like, you know what I mean?
Like you have like something but you know, if you have something like it's like it's like it's like having play-doh in your hand. It's it's a pleasant thing to squeeze. Nastasia, what are your thoughts? Uh you know what I'm thinking about. My favorite story ever.
Oh, oh, favorite Peter story? Well, okay. We can't have Peter on without talking about the story. Mainly because well, for those of you that don't know, like Peter coined a phrase about Nastasi. You wanna you want to talk about this phrase, Peter?
Are you talking about the name I have for her? No, no, no. I'm talking about yeah, the German, the German term. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Stassenfreude.
Because as I think many of the listeners of this show have gleaned, what brings great joy to Nastasia is to see other people suffer. And it's not that she's created the suffering. She has not in any way intervened in people's lives to create the suffering. It's just observing it and and basking in it. And so this it's a special brand of, of course, Schadenfreude, which is the word probably you all know.
And it's it's Stassenfreude. Yeah, because it's very specifically like Nastasia like. Oh, yeah. Anyway, anyway, so who's gonna tell this one? If this has been told a million times on the show, I guess Peter's never telling it.
No, no, no. Oh god, we're not no. Nastasia, if if this is coming out, it's you're you're telling the story, not me. Yeah, yeah. You know what, Nastasia?
You always make up people do this. Peter walked in on Dave taking a dump. The way you tell it is like freaking. And it was one of the top five moments of my life. Yeah.
Nastasia, for for anyone that enjoys any of the products or anything that that Booker and Dax has ever made or done, Nastasia would have quit long ago if she hadn't had her batteries recharged at uh Williams College by this interaction. It gave her like maybe three years of of of gas in the tank. Right? I have never seen such pure joy on Nastasia's face as when that happened. I mean, it was pure, pure joy.
Yeah. Yeah. It was great. I wish we had a video of Nastasia's face. According to Peter, she was like like almost vibrating.
I reached what they reached Nirvana. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
She she was on the ground and just like, I mean, I don't know. Like it's what I imagine like somebody who's like taking every drug combined. It wasn't a secondhand experience. I got to experience like most people don't get to see the thing, you know. But I got to see what it's like, it's like train spotting and like the such a perfect day.
And like Nastas just floating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. All right. Let's get to some questions. Uh as usual, uh Peter. And like what do you have anything?
You have anything else you want to say before we do that? Who's who's been your favorite? Guess Peter. Oh, that's a good question. Uh I would say Femi Kuti and Made Kuti were pretty amazing.
And I mean, not just because like that's like, I mean, for me, like, just it's music that I legit have loved for so long and really shaped me a lot. Uh, but they were just a lot of fun. This it was a lot of fun to have the father-son combo on. Um for those that don't know, this is Phila's son and grandson, right? That's right.
Yeah, yeah. Um and Femi played with Fela. So Egypt 70 was one of the bands that backed up. Fela and Femi was into Egypt 70, and then Made has learned from his father as well. And so there's it's a really great lineage, and their music, all of it's really great.
Um, but yeah, no, that's my favorite guest. They also have a club, they also have a club restaurant, right? Yeah, called the Shrine. Did you go? You ever gone?
No, I mean, I've never been to Nigeria, so I would love to go. Um but yeah, no, that's it. And I'd say, yeah, tune in to counter Jam, counterjam.com, and uh yeah, let me know what you think. Well, you start that episode, they have to kick in a generator to get the uh they have to kick in their second generator because their first generator died, and apparently their electricity was cutting out constantly. So Peter's like nervous he's not gonna get the interview, but it ends up actually being like they actually they end up being really cool, you know what I mean?
Like, not like I mean, obviously they're cool, but I mean like they end up being kind of like cool to talk to, right? Yeah, they were great. Um it was definitely challenging because there was such a heavy delay that we had to like yeah, there was there was a lot of a lot of confusion from the delay too, but but it worked out. Yeah, yeah. Uh and uh you well, you pose like it's the it's a I know what this is like.
There's a huge father-son argument in this episode that boils down because Peter like has uh the question that he asks, so like you know, nostasia's always like how much to cut off your right toe, how much to whatever, you know what I mean? And uh, you know, how much to you know do X horrible thing with X horrible person. Uh but Peter, what's your stock question? If you were stuck on a desert island and you had to eat one dish for the rest of your life, what would it be? But you also, for the purposes of your show, you narrow it to like one that's within the culture you're talking about.
That's right. It's not like, you know what I really like? Big Max. Love them. Right.
Uh yeah, so it's uh yeah, so but then it's not the most delicious. It's like what would act you would actually want to eat ever day in and day out for the rest of your life. And for anyone that like for most people they they tend to cop out and try to like pick something that includes like everything. You know what I mean? Like they want like everything in one dish.
Right. But the the hilarious thing is is that so like um the sun the the grand's the son or grand's manages look at my days, like he mentions this, he mentions uh uh like a a dish with both turkey and chicken, and his dad loses loses his mind on the sun. And he's like, what's so messed up is that he he has both plantain and starch, which I guess you know you could count kind of in similar kind of baskets. And so the son's like, you have both plantain and starch. Why can't I have both chicken and turkey?
And that and the dad's like, because it's two different bodies, it's two different living bodies. You can't bring two. You can't bring two. You know what I mean? It's just it's kind of great kind of back and forth, I thought.
I don't know. I found it. Oh, yeah, it was great. It was great. Yeah, yeah.
Uh yeah. So uh any any other questions you have, Anastasia, before we go into uh our kind of standard cooking issue style questions. No, Peter, I think uh, yeah, I'm so happy to see your show doing so well. Yeah, who you got in your next season? Apparently it's uh coming up in a couple of weeks.
Yeah, I just I've got uh one of the episodes that we're doing is on Jewish American food. And I've got uh Aitan Bernath and Ilana Glazer on for that one. So that'll be fun. Yeah, yeah. And uh yeah, I'm working.
I other ones I can't uh disclose this yet, but it's gonna be it's gonna be great. This episode is brought to you by just egg. You can't have plant-based breakfast without a plant-based egg. Just egg is now the fastest growing egg brand in the United States. Bring more plant-based customers in your doors with easy to use, just egg.
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You should try to do both. Alright, I'm gonna go full you don't care. From Monty via email, uh dear cooking issues crew, hope you're staying warm and hydrated. Uh, what would you look for in a freeze dryer? They seem pretty expensive.
Are there any DIY alternatives? I have a friend who travels on motorcycles quite a bit and wants to freeze dry his homegrown produce. Thanks. Monty from Jacksonville, uh, Oregon. All right.
So uh traditional freeze dryers are extraordinarily expensive and they have relatively low uh throughput. Uh and you can't really DIY it because you need uh a coal trap. It needs to be extremely cold. Uh and you know, and most things that you could consider to be DIY freeze drying, like don't end up looking like what you want from a freeze dryer. I'm thinking like chunyos from like uh Peru, where you know you could do that just by literally freezing it and then desiccating them and back and forth, but that's not what you're looking for.
There is now so cheap for a freeze dryer is about five grand. And you can get one for I think between three and five grand now that's meant for food preppers. And during the COVID time, I'm sure everyone who's prepping food uh, you know, for the future zombie apocalypse and whatnot, and for when we get a disease that wipes us out even harder than this one, I'm sure the price the probably probably the price has stayed constant actually, the same way grain mills have, but they're out there now. I forget the name of the company. It's like something harvest, like good harvest or good nature harvest, and it gets relatively good reviews.
It's relatively home friendly, and it's relatively expensive relative to the $10,000 lab conco freeze dryers that you could get. But look for a large enough cavity that you can do a good amount of product and stay away from the ones that just freeze-dry bottles because therein lies a pain in your butt. But that's what most lab people want to do. Was that a decent answer? Fast enough?
Yes. All right. Uh all right. There is a carbonation question. Uh what do you think?
No. Stay away from it. Remember, that was the whole point of you making that video that you would never answer another one. So you would point them to the video. This person wants to carbonate cocktails with a McCann carbonator.
I would say stay away from it. So get your book or talk to somebody else. Wow. I feel like people, here's the thing. If you're asking a carbonation question, it's like just a trigger for Nastasia.
Oh, it's because you told me to keep you on track, and when someone in the future asks about carbonation, that you would point them to the resources that you made because you spent a lot of time on them. So I'm just doing what you said. But if you don't want to, go ahead and answer it. Somehow I'm a bad guy again. I don't even know what it is.
It's it's not the same question that the video addresses is the problem, but it's just you in general just hate any carbonation question. It's like me asking you to do quick agar freeze thaw. Or not quick agar freeze. Wow. Wow.
Stirring stirring the pot. This is this is Peter doing his own Stasen Freude. This is Peter doing his own Stasenfreude. I'm just kidding. Yeah, sure, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Do you do people still say half ingest whole in earnest? I grew up hearing that constantly. No. People don't use that phrase anymore.
No. It's a good one. Because it's like every time someone's joking, they really mean it. When was the last time someone was joking and they were just joking? Right, right.
Well, the other classic thing you can always say is bless bless his heart, right? Oh yeah. Bless your heart. Did you say did you say that up in Illinois? I thought that was only Southerners who said that.
You said that in the Illinois. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I look I you know I grew up in a Hallmark store.
Right. Oh my God, that's true. Another picture that we can share because Peter owns it is a very depressed looking young Peter Kim on a bench. No, I don't think he's on the bench. Isn't he?
Doesn't he have his helmet off? He has his helmet off. I thought he was seated. Peter, what is it? In my mind he's like a precious moment.
Yeah. Yes. With the helmet off. Because we had holiday parties and, you know, I had to be the person who dressed up as a president. It's a family business, so who else is gonna wear the precious moment costume?
Uh I took pictures with all these. What about your brother? Did you make your brother do it? My brother was already in college at that point. Okay.
All right. So like I want like in my mind, here's what it is. It's like you had just listened to Fogarty's put me in coach, I'm ready to play. You're dressed as for some reason this minor league baseball team has a precious moments thing as their mascot. And you've decided that you can play center field because the center fielder is injured, and you know you're at least as good as the injured center fielder, and you take off the the the furry head, and the coach still says no, and you sit on the bench and you look down.
That's what it says to me. This picture. Like this, it's that's the image in my mind. Man. So and like the thing is like, do you regret sharing these kinds of things with Nastasia and me, knowing that like as soon as we see that kind of image of whatever you want to call that, that it's there forever and it's like it never goes away.
No, I'm I'm happy if I can if I can bring a brief moment of joy to your lives. Yeah. I feel like we share equally like horrible things. Yeah. You hardly ever share well, there's the one.
We can't talk about it. But Nastasia, you try to keep your horrible stuff under the like close to the chest there. You know what I mean? You're not you're not so much on sharing your heart. That's not true.
Okay. I showed you guys the most horrible thing. That's like the that's true. So what so after I would say after maybe eight, nine years. Like, and so like, uh, you know, we we've been and and Peter's been in in the, you know, we've known each other maybe we've been only together like two two years as uh working together when we met Peter, right?
Right, Nastasia, someone like that? Yeah, maybe. So it's so it's been like a long time. Anyway, yeah. It was like maybe eight years before Nastasia shared this one thing, and I will never share it with the world.
Ever. It's only because I couldn't find photo evidence, and as soon as I did, I shared it. It wasn't photo evidence, video evidence. Video and photo evidence. Yeah, it's out there, people.
It's not out there, but it's out there. It's not out. Yeah. Uh all right. So uh 91 uh Alex, uh Alexander uh, I think it's I can't remember whether it's Tile guard or tailguard, sorry.
Uh you told me how to pronounce it last time. Uh had a honey dehydration question, and uh uh all he wants is to he's trying to get all of the liquid out of honey to make it into a powder and use it as a sugar and doesn't care about the aroma or anything like that. Yeah, just throw it in a dehydrator. It'll dehydrate. Just be aware that uh it is extremely uh hygroscopic, so it will reabsorb moisture.
So don't expect to have free, you know, a free-flowing honey powder that you can just leave out uh and have it be uh working for you. Uh from Keith Fitzgerald via email, and I spoke to Peter a little bit about this uh beforehand. Had a question. Hope all is good. Could you ask Dave?
Uh and I'll just tell you no, I do not have any experience. Do I have any experience with the Korean machine uh called the Oku O C O O O. I'm assuming it's pronounced Oku pressure cooker. I just obtained one and I'm figuring it out. It'd be great to hear if I have any knowledge about uh double chambered pressure cookers.
And as a side question, what's the best way to cook welks? Welks? I didn't even see that last section of the question. Thanks, Keith, an Irish listener. Well, I've never had Irish welks, but I'm assuming that because it's the Atlantic, they're pretty similar to the welks that we used to catch off of uh the uh coast of Cape Cott.
You got any of you guys other guys cook welk? No. No. So welk is kind of like a it's like a crappy conch. You know what I'm saying?
So it's like imagine like they look like like conch. Do you are you a conch or a conch? What do you what do you guys? What do you prefer? I'll use whatever you prefer.
Conch. Conk? Alright. So like, whereas like the conch is this big kind of like awesome shell, and you can like turn it into like a horn and it like looks pretty, and you can get the big thing out and you can slice it and pound it and do all this other kind of stuff with it, and they sell it canned. Like welk looks like that, but like busted.
You know what I mean? Like small, like ish, dingy. And then when you pull it out, like it it doesn't necessarily have a so you guys ever like you guys have all eaten some form of snaily slash welky slash conky thing, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
So you know how you when you pull it out, you have the muscle, which is what everyone's looking for, and then you got the the the goopa loop afterwards that you know the stuff that you trim off and then pitch, you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I feel that the welk has an unfavorable amount of goopa loop to uh the to the to the meat.
And also the welk that I used to catch live, like had like a real kind of like just kind of like a musty kind of kind of like like seaweed that's been out too long, kind of like kind of, you know, like aquarium water taste to it. And by way, when I say fresh, literally like I would go into the water, get them, pull them out, and cook them right away. So it's not like they were stale or anything like that. Um so I'm gonna say whatever I did to them. Now, fair fair point.
The last time I did this was when I was 18. So it's been, you know, 30 years since I have, or 32 years since I have done this. Uh so I'm gonna go ahead and say I have no good knowledge on you, but whatever I did, don't do that. Like, I would assume that you have to peel off and trim more than I did and maybe beat the ever loving hell out of it. Now, if you want to talk about getting caw hogs, I don't know if you have caw hogs over there in Ireland, but those you make stuffies with.
You guys like stuffies? I have not had a lot of stuffy, but they look really good. Yeah, stuffed clam, man. Who doesn't mean Nastasia probably doesn't like a stuffed clam? I'm just guessing based on Nastasia's, like You're right.
I don't like it. Yeah. Why don't you like a stuffed clam? I don't know. It doesn't matter.
Go. What about you, John? Yes. Big fan. Yeah, right?
Yeah, good. Yeah, delicious. And you can make them in all different kinds of flavors. Like you take a really tough clam, you chop it up, you mix it with like breadcrumbs and other cool stuff, and then you broil it. Well, well, I mean, like, what's not to uh what's not to enjoy, you know?
To me, it evokes it evokes like stuffed uh potato skins from like TGI Fridays, which might sound horrible, but I love that, and I still dream about those potato skins. TGI Fridays is famous for their potato skins. They have spent millions of dollars to make potato skins such that you will enjoy them, Peter. There's no shame in enjoying a TGI Friday potato skin. I don't think.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Do you know I find that my potato skins, maybe I'll work on it, aren't very good. What about you? Have you ever made a potato skin that you really liked?
I've tried making, I think I turned out alright, but I don't know that I really yeah, I don't know. This the skin's never as crunchy as I want. Right, right. It gets pa it gets papery. Do you know what I'm saying?
Right. Like, I I haven't fully worked it out yet. Um anyone else here, a Tato Skin fan have good good feelings on potato skins? Yeah? Do you like, but have you ever made them?
Or do you just buy them for TGI Fridays? Never made them. I made them. Yeah, I couldn't get them as crispy as I wanted. So maybe we should work on this.
Maybe I'll work on it for the miracle. It is a moisture management problem, and I do have a whole section on potatoes. Oh, Dave, we're supposed to talk about the quest. Oh, alright, give me a second. Let me uh so this this pressure cooker, because I I mentioned Keith Keith's question, and I haven't I have not used one of these things, but I had Peter look at it right right before the show to see whether like he had any sort of like knowledge of where this might have come from.
But what it is is it's like a ceramic, there's like a uh a pot and a steamer insert that fit into a stainless steel uh vessel. So there's a stainless steel pressure cooker with a pressure cooker lid, but interposed between the lid and the um and the and the and the base, you can put these ceramic pots. So it's like a combination like pressure cooker, it's like an like a kind of like a very expensive hardcore instapot thing, but I think it's made for commercial commercial use. So do you see any kind of you see anything in this that rings any bells, Peter, or anything that uh gives you any any feelings about cooking in crockery in general? No, but I've just it when you mentioned it, I did the quick Google image search of stuff you could make with it, and it looks pretty phenomenal.
Yeah, I mean, I like ceramics. I do like ceramic. I'm not I'm not like so. Nastasi and I uh once went to Paula Wolford's house. You guys remember the author Paula Wolford?
Anyway, so we went with with Harold McGee uh, and this was I believe right after we had eaten 10,000 uh citrus uh citrus fruits, and I was on my way to trying to go set myself on spray. The best day of my life where my butt was set on spray, but I was spraying out orange juice. It was the best, it was the best thing ever. Anyway, so on the way home from that, uh we went and stopped at Paula Wolford's house, and she was a she is a huge devotee, was uh uh I don't know whether she's still around of uh cooking in clay. And she wrote a book on cooking in clay, and there's a huge group of people who are like extremely stoked about cooking in uh in clay, and I've just never become one of these clay heads.
Any of you guys clayheads? No. No, all right. I don't really get it. I don't that but that's the thing.
I don't really understand. I don't understand what it is that the clay is doing. And all the explanations are extremely mystical. You know what I mean? Yeah.
It's like baking in salt. I don't quite understand that either. Well, baking in salt, so in the 70s, baking in salt like was a huge thing. So they had two things that that people did in the 70s. It was chicken and salt and and fish in salt.
Like a whole fish in salt and a and and a whole chicken in salt. And so the idea is that you that this I guess that you have a bunch of salt around, which of course nobody did in the 70s. We just had regular, like, you know, people didn't. I don't feel like the kosher salt had become something that everyone had, you know, in their in their pantries unless they you know needed it for cultural reasons. Anyways, so you you pack all of the salt around whatever you're gonna cook, and it supposedly forms a shell, almost like baking in clay, right?
So it's about sealing something in moisture. It's almost like it's like akin to like on papillot or or sou vide or something like this. But so my mom did it with a with a chicken, and uh this was you know, she was going out with my stepfather, but they hadn't been married yet, so this had to have been 1982. So I was I was 11. And uh so how many years ago?
I'm I'll be 50 in two weeks, so you can do the math. Like, and the salt collapsed, and there was no barrier. I don't know whether you're supposed to put a barrier. My mom had no barrier. The salt was literally packed around the chicken, and my mom's a phenomenal cook, by the way.
But the salt collapsed into the chicken, and it was the saltiest chicken. Like, without any shadow of a doubt, the saltiest object that I've ever put into my mouth, and and I've eaten straight salted capers. You know what I mean? So it was like, it was just intense. And so because it was the eight, you know, I guess it was early 80s, I guess it wasn't 70s.
Um, you know, you didn't say anything about it. You just ate it. You know what I mean? And so we, you know, that's the thing I don't understand about kids these days. They always have something to say about the food that's served to them.
It's like when I was a kid, you just ate whatever was. What? No, you just ate it, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. Nastasia, Nastasia has all sorts of things to say about parenting.
Uh we'll wait and see. She has she witnesses a lot of it. Yeah, kind of. Uh so anyway, so like we didn't say anything, but to this day, every once in a while, my stepfather's like, remember the salt chicken? I'm like, I'm like, Gerard, what the hell, man?
You gotta like, yeah, you know, my mom is my mom is 70, right? And she's cooked some of the best things that he's ever eaten in his whole life. You know what I mean? Plus, she is a pediatric cardiologist and runs a tran started and runs a pediatric transplant program, the first pediatric heart transplant program in the United States, right? So, like, you know, and he won't let her forget this one time that we had a super salty chicken.
I just don't feel it's right to bring that up, you know? Remember the chicken Lynn. No one's gonna come down on the side of Gerard here. Yeah. Yeah.
Lynn. Lynn, you remember the chicken? You remember how salty it was? Yeah. And to be fair, I imagine I imagine that baking and salt, and like I haven't had a lot of stuff baked in salt really, but like it's you know, it's festive, and it's it's fun.
It's a fun surprise to crack things open. But I just say, like, I don't really understand beyond that like why why you would do it which may be reasonable enough I mean yeah yeah you ever go to uh Turkey yeah I was in Turkey yeah you ever have that that that the thing baked in clay in turkey and then you go outside the restaurant and it's just there's piles of broken clay vessels. Yeah yeah I mean that's just kind of cool I don't even care how the thing tastes so I mean and there there's something to be said for yeah presentation format ceremony and it's great but yeah yeah John as the as they well both Peter and John are both a francophiles and francophones but do you guys enjoy the the fish that's cooked in a crust and then open table side and debone by the waiter I haven't had it but I mean I'd really I would order that to see that done in front of me I think that'd be pretty cool. Oh yeah yeah I mean to me again it doesn't matter how it tastes like the presentation is almost enough in that case I mean I mean I guess I wouldn't kind of think I would want to do I would put beef wellington in this same bucket it's like a delicious combination of things but really it's also about like the surprise of what cutting into that yeah yeah but I guess the nice thing about the fish is that they do it tableside and then they do you enjoy the old school like the the French way of not touching it and just using the two like using the fork and the and the thing to to get all of the bones out lay them aside and have the four it's always with a flat fish and have like the four perfect fillets. You don't think that's I mean it's sure class I love it.
Right? Yeah it's magic right I mean, it's like, it's like uh, you know, that's not the way I cook, it's not the way I would ever cook, but like when someone like is like, I'm just gonna go dot all these I's and cross all these T's and do it, you're like, props, no? Yeah, yeah. Agreed. Yeah, yeah.
Uh all right, so wait. So we have to talk about the quest, but I want I'm gonna ask you guys this question. I'll answer it next time because I don't understand exactly what's being gotten at. All right. So listen to this question, and then you guys tell me what it means, and then I will think about it for next time.
Devin Patel wrote, unless you have an answer. Devin Patel wrote in, uh, I've recently been looking at purchasing equipment, and I'm trying to distinguish between what is sold as quote unquote industry standard. Okay, to not bring about a spotlight and hurt someone's business, I want to keep it vague. So Devin's not telling me exactly which company is saying that they're an industry standard, but I I'm finding it hard to read between the lines here. All right.
So my question is when looking at industry specific equipment to purchase and comparing it to another piece of equipment that is industry adjacent, but looks and does exactly the same thing, like a scale. So I guess buying like a butcher scale versus like a uh uh counting scale for a deli versus like a postal scale. I mean, maybe that's what we're talking about. How can you tell if the materials and build are quality and that the price just and the price doesn't just get jacked up because it's specific for an industry? So I guess medical stuff and and stuff like that could be is that you think that's what you think that's what uh what he's talking about?
You have any thoughts on it before should I just cogitate on it? I am annoying. Sounds like everything you try and do. Like finding parts and finding cheaper parts in like related industries that do achieve the same thing in the end. Right.
Like I you like use well when I started out in this, it was about like finding things from other industries that chefs didn't use. There was a mad dash to get any piece of equipment and use it. That's how, like, you know, ultrasonic homogenizers and ultrasonic cleaners and all sorts of uh, you know, rotovaps and all this, you know, even merging circulators. It started with the emergent circulator, and that was how everyone was like, let me look at anything else that can be used for for cooking. But I think here it's more like there is something already that's being sold for cooking, but I want to use it for something else, right?
And how do you how do you tell? I mean, the first thing is whether it's food grade or not, right? That's the that's that's the other that's the other issue. Uh also Devin believes this, and I'm gonna throw this out there, because we have to talk about the quest, sorry, real quick, Matt. Uh and Peter will appreciate this because it's a horror show.
Uh anyway, so Devin says, salted taste for recipes is a cop-out. This is Devin's saying this. This is a statement. Just saying, if it's your recipe, then you get uh to decide how much salt it gets and the powers in your hands, all the salty power, sincerely, Devin. I don't know that I agree, I don't know that I agree with that just because it's so hard to control with what raw ingredients you have and any other kind of changes or mistakes.
Whenever you read someone's recipe, when you write a recipe, you have to write a recipe knowing it will be mangled, right? Go and read any review section of any recipe website or reviews of recipes in a book. They're like, I loved it, but I said I I substituted beef for chicken, I omitted the starch, and I added a whole bunch of cheese, and I loved it. You know what I mean? Or I did that and I hated it.
The recipe didn't work. All I did was substitute, I took away the stuff and I added cheese and I substituted the beef for the chicken. But the recipe didn't work. What a moron. And so, like, you know, when you know that you're gonna have your recipe completely butchered, right?
And you don't know exactly what ingredients someone's gonna use, like um, it's very hard to write a specific amount of salt. And also, salt is the ingredient that people f up the most because someone will someone will say, first of all, like someone will say two teaspoons kosher salt. They won't even say whether it's mortem or diamond, right? Which is you know, you're already off by a factor of uh uh a third at least. And then God forbid someone used like you know, granulated uh iodized.
It's just almost impossible, and no one reads that fine, and nobody gives enough of a crap to actually get that stuff right. And so I think it's almost impossible to write salt into a recipe uh accurately. What do you guys think? Unless you do it by weight. Unless you do it by weight, but then but then you still have to put a teaspoon or a volumetric measurement next to it because otherwise people are gonna be like, I don't know how I'm weigh salt, you know what I mean?
I don't know. I think it's just really difficult. I don't think it's a I don't in other words, and people really do have radically different salt tolerances, and if you're trying to give someone a recipe, I think there's really something to be said for allowing somebody to adjust your vision because they're gonna eat it, you're not gonna eat it. You know what I mean? Like they're gonna eat it.
So, like, you know, I find when I'm doing a recipe, I will tell someone how I like it, but then I'm not gonna eat it. So I just you know, I don't know. I don't think it's a cop out. I think it's a cop, it's a cop-out to not measure it and tell people tell people what you think, but I don't think it's a cop out to tell people why there's fudge or wiggle room. Yeah, I'm I'm on the same page as you.
I think the places where I want to have salt measured out is a baking recipe. And and then actually another area where it's actually you don't see the salt often measured out, uh, but it should be for sure, is with pickles. Like it's really hard. Sometimes it's really hard to find a pickle recipe where they give you the actual just like by weight percentage of salt that they want to aim at. And to me, that's really annoying.
Oh, super annoying. Super annoying. If first of all, like I don't understand, like everyone should go back and just the way every brine recipe should work, is it should be the amount of salt for total weight of brine plus. Exactly. Yeah.
I hate it that you have like, oh, add a like a cup of salt and then add water to fill the jar. I'm like, well, how big's the jar? Like how dense is your like ingredient. I mean, I mean, it's like it's crazy. Yeah, right.
And so that especially goes, you know, like well, like uh, you know, like a lot of pickles are done dry. Like the only pickles that that have recipes that make sense are the ones that are done dry and they create their own brine, because then at least it starts with some rational percentage, right? But the ones where you're just like topping up with water, it's an absurdity. And it's like, look, if you're writing a recipe for brining chicken and you're only gonna brine the chicken for two hours, then sure, focus on the concentration of the brine, right? Uh, but if you're gonna do well, what we refer to as equalization, right?
Where you're going to you know pretty much equalize the salt content throughout the entire batch, then but it's the salt on the whole weight chomps. You know what I mean? Yeah, you're right, Peter. It's completely irritating. And and so widespread.
So widespread. Try finding a kimchi recipe that gives you the weight of salt by like overall weight. It's very hard. Well, yeah, but that that's the other problem. So, like, if you have recipes that are written by people that have done something their whole lives, they're like, you do it till it tastes right, but that's so unhelpful to someone who's never done it, you know?
Yes. Yeah, that's my mom. I mean, that's what she says, and then I'm like, ah, and so yeah, I actually have my kimchi recipe, and it's it's all by percentage weight. Yeah. Oh, nice.
Well, maybe well, maybe uh give give it to us and we'll put do you or like what what do you what seafood e products do you put into it? Uh I use um seyu chuk, which is the the salted shrimp. Um, and then sometimes, you know, oysters or muscles. But I my standard is sewage because I always have it. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, salt by percentage. Do you think people are resistant to cooking by percentage? See, like, whenever like when I'm writing all my recipes that I have in my in my you know on my computer here, it's always just it's always just percentage. So I just write per salt as a percentage, always. You know what I mean?
Like, always. Um, but I think people don't want to calculate. I guess people don't change recipes, so they don't need to switch percentages up and down. What do they do? Like, like remove cabbage until it weighs exactly a kilo before they make their stuff when they're doing a recipe.
It doesn't make sense, right? You know, you don't buy cabbage, you you pay for cabbage by the kilo, but you buy cabbage by the cabbage. So you make the amount that is in the cabbage that you have purchased, no. Yeah, I assume people just do a lot of rounding. But it's not that hard.
I mean, everyone has a smart well, not everyone. If you if you are reading a recipe on the internet, you probably have a smartphone. And it does doesn't take that much time to multiply something by a percentage number. It takes almost no time. Truth.
What's this quest thing? All right, all right. Uh Nastasia. So Nastasia spends most of I spend most of my days at a desk where I am right now. It's covered in electronics because I'm prototyping.
This by my whenever my wife comes home, she's like, Have you cleaned up the electronics yet? I'm like, I'm not done with them. So it's just like I'm in piles of piles and piles of of uh electronics and 3D printing gear. But what Nastasia does is she deals with different teams of Amazon people. Some are bots, some are not, and she has to determine who's a bot and and who's not.
But she was given, she was given a task uh a week, a week, a week and a half ago. And this is relating to Nastasia and I are still trying to deal with the fact that Amazon will not sell Searsolves. And we're we're close people. I wouldn't say close in time, but we're close in finding out what the solution's gonna be. But you want to talk about what happened there, Seth?
Just quickly, they they were like, you have another account underneath your well, it's not your business name, but there is there. We're trying to set up another selling account that's not putting it. Yeah, you can't open this new account because there's another account that might be associated with this account, but we can't give you any other information other than this email, which is not your email. But if you look hard, you'll be able to find out like what who's behind this account. And then we're gonna send your business partner, Dave, a card in the mail with a special code on it.
And if he gives you that code, then it'll unlock this thing so that you can figure out who's behind this other account. Because we can't tell you, but we're sure that maybe you'll be able to find out. And by the way, this postcard is like novelty check size. It's like huge, and all it contains is like five, five digits of information, but it's like a novelty check that they send you in the mail. So uh, and so Nastasia, I'll be I'll be you, you be the you be the lady.
Wait, so let me get this, let me get this straight. You know what's wrong. Yes. And like looking, like you could tell exactly what it is that I need to do to rectify this. Yeah, but you won't tell me.
Right. Because you want me to go on a quest. Exactly. And when you find out, you call me and you tell me, and I'll let you know if it's true or not. Whether you have fulfilled the quest.
So this is like some sort of ready player one garbage, like where you know, Nastasia had to go buy an Atari 2600, and she had to get like the adventure cartridge, which I used to play as a kid. And yeah, she had to go into all the invisible rooms and find the magic chalice and not get eaten by the dragon. And still on the vision, yeah. Well, she would go to the lady, she'd be like, Is it this? Do I get the magic card?
She's like, Oh no. You know what I mean? At the end, there's gonna be some sort of magnificent moral lesson for you. And you'll be improved as a person, and you'll have a functional business. That was so in your in your mind, Nastasia.
In your mind, like, who is playing the Knight's Templar and when you have to choose which cup to drink out of? And is the Nazi beat you there and drink ahead of time or not? I don't know. I don't know. You gotta choose a person now.
Harold McGee guarding Harold McGee. Harold McGee is guarding the cups. And we're like, Harold, it's been you the whole time. Is he dressed as Zoltar at that time? Yes, yes.
Oh god, guys, in the Dave Arnold Bingo uh reference to Indiana Jones is definitely one of the squares. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Although it gets less, it gets it's more and more like I know more and more people I've spoken to whose childhood lives were ruined by one or more of those movies. You know what I mean? So the person that we had on um the on the show, one of the people, we had three people, one of the people we had on the show last week, uh told me that the Temple of Doom, like almost single-handedly ruined huge chunks of his childhood experience.
When did it come out? Like 1980 two or 83 or something like that. So he was he's my age, so he was like 11 or something. And he was like, Yeah, it was just like never ending garbage. Like those movies are among the like if you watch them now, cringe worthy kind of situations, right?
I mean, it's like are any of them I don't know. What do what are your thoughts, Peter? Well, I I have I have only happy feelings. Yeah, yeah. Uh all right.
So that's the quest. And so you stay tuned next week for uh any kind of updates we have in the quest. We if it goes much longer, we're going to try to find some sort of world famous Dungeons and Dragons expert to come on and because Nastasia could like I'm gonna be the I'm gonna be the Nastasi again. Nastasi's gonna be the the person she was talking to. Hey, are what what am I what am I what am I hearing?
Are are you are you rolling a 20-sided die? Because like she was choosing our health, right? Nastasia, like she's rolling the die and choosing how many health points we would have. And like, you know, so every time I hang up the phone with Nastasi at the end of the day now, I'm like, don't let the orcs get you. Because she's in some sort of like weird dungeons and dragons kind of a situation.
But you know, I who wait, oh, before we go, who's the who's the Nazi who who chooses poorly? Who that that you know, Harold gets to say he chose to be. Oh, God, I don't know. I don't know. That would be coming personal.
No, I don't know. All right. All right. Well, we'll let you know. We'll let you know whether we saw the crest.
And uh, Peter, congrats on the on the first uh season of your show. We're looking forward to the second one. It's good to be on. Come on, uh, you know, you're always welcome here at the at the cooking issues. We love having you.
Thanks so much. Yeah, all right. Cooking issues. Cooking issues is powered by Simplecast. Thanks for listening to Heritage Radio Network.
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