Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive from the new standard radios Rockefeller setup. Joined as usual with Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing, Nastasia? Good.
You doing well? Mm-hmm. Yeah, you look well. Thanks. Yeah.
Yeah. Got uh got uh John. John in the booth with us. How are you doing? Doing great, thanks.
Yeah. Yeah. You in uh New York these days? Are you in uh back New York basically now full time again? I'll tell you something about New York right now.
Unpleasant. Yeah. Hot weather, hot weather, stinky garbage. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Stinky garbage. People just like wandering into the street like some sort of piece of livestock, like trying to get killed by my bike. Yeah. I gave him the jersey woe today, Stas.
He would have loved it. Lady walks. Okay, here's people. For those of you that don't know. By the way, we got Joe Hazen.
How you doing? Hey, I'm doing great. How are you? Doing right, and we got Jackie. We got a Jackie Molecules here.
Yeah, maybe. He's probably muting himself. We have a special guest. I'll introduce him one second. I'll say this one thing first.
So I'm going down, and as you know, on the bike lanes here in New York, they're green. And in the bike lane, you're supposed to go as fast as possible because I'm trying to get somewhere. This is commuting, and it's a bike lane, right? Even though there's signs everywhere saying, restaurant, slow down. Right?
You know what I'm saying? Anyway, but what you don't do is walk with your back to the oncoming bike traffic. If I see you do that, here's what I'm thinking. They're walking towards the cars, and then I'll pass them. Never turn back, never wander back into the bike lane.
So this person she wanders back into the bike lane and Stas, you know what I gave her. Right. Oh. Not like ding ding ding, because that wouldn't be sufficient. You know what I mean?
I gave her the full Oh man. I gave her the full the full experience. You know what I mean? Yeah. The New York, New Jersey, major metropolitan area experience.
Uh that doesn't include Connecticut, though. Well, Connecticut's not really a land of O's. No. Do you consider Really? What would they say?
Nothing. Nothing. The Connecticut that's right next to New York is like freaking Greenwich. Oh. Oh.
Oh. Excuse me. You know what I mean? Like, whereas like everywhere else, you go out to Long Island, you go out to Jersey, you go anywhere. You go to Oh, you know what I mean?
Like that's how we do it. Right? You know what I mean? Anyway. Uh good news is that uh we have today on the show a special guest who we were supposed to have uh earlier, but we had to cancel because we were moving networks, uh, and we didn't want him to get lost in the shuffle.
Pierre, Pierre Chong, welcome to the show. Hey Dave, thank you. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Well, it's been a long time coming.
We've known each other since when? Since like 2009, and you've never been on the show, I don't think, have you? I don't know. Actually, I have been on the show a very long time, a long time ago, briefly. You called uh we called, yeah.
Well, I wasn't a special guest, I was just talking about fermented stuff. I remember that, yeah, because I I love the show. Yeah, oh well, I appreciate it. Well, you know, uh, we're all big fans, obviously, of uh you. So let me give give you a little bit of like uh, I guess your background.
Um so Pierre, I knew I first met you, like I said, in 2009 when I was working at the French Culinary Institute. You were coming in and using uh our space, because I guess you know you didn't want to take over your restaurant at the time, because you were still had uh the Grand Tak uh Dakar at that time, I think. And um you were training for Iron Chef America, and that's kind of when uh I I met you. Is uh, you know, we had mutual friend, um, you know, um Hervé Malivaire, who was our, you know, your second on the on the show. And uh you came in and training, and we just kind of like you know became friends, and then you gave me a copy of your book, Yolele, which was the very first Senegalese cookbook in English, at least here in the United States.
It's the first one that I I know of. It was crazy. If you look back in 2009, there was nothing. You know what I'm saying? There's nothing.
Yeah, yeah, it was quite pioneering at the time. And um, you know, I it this whole thing began for me in the early 90s when I arrived in New York. And you know, New York was already calling itself the food capital of the world, but but Africa was missing. Africa wasn't part of that world. And I was like, I saw this as an opportunity.
Yeah. Because I know, I mean, I came from Senegal and the food is awesome there. I mean, you've been there. Yeah, you took me. I took you there, yeah.
Uh we had a great trip. So uh, you know, I was like, you know, I uh this is an opportunity. I'm going to make it a mission to introduce this food culture. And it I never stopped. And Yolele, that cookbook that you received was the very first one that was part of a broader mission of introducing a food culture.
Yeah, because there was uh at the time, right, in the 90s, there was like maybe one or two uh West African restaurants on the west side, and then I guess uh some up uh it like uh above 116th Street, right? Kind of in the middle of the island. And but well, where else was there, where else was there where else were they? Like what was going on? Well, they weren't part of my food scene at the time because I was pretty Manhattan-centric, like the idiot that I am.
No, actually, I I'm impressed that you knew about them. There were the those were the very, very first one. When we first arrived, I were at here in 89 actually. And when we first arrived, the only way we would have Senegalese food would be women would cook. We lived in a hotel, right?
There was a you know, quote unquote hotel on 50th Street. Remember what Times Square looked like back in the days? Oh, yeah. So that hotel was in the middle of Times Square. It was nothing like what you have right now.
But those women had set up kitchen in those hotel rooms, and they would cook like for immigrants, and we would just come and grab our food to go, and we would grab our chairwigan, our peanut sauce, our lamp stools, our okra stood, all those great things were cooked outside of hotel rooms. There was no restaurant. And then early 90s, the first restaurant started to come, you know, the ones you mentioned in the in the west side and one on 115th Street, and 116th Street became Little Senegal. Was uh that's really how it started. Was uh Shen Yanya Koti?
Was she Senegalese? She was Senegalese, yes. Shen Yanyanyakoti remembered her. She was in uh in uh around the meat, not meat packing, but um in the 40s behind the exactly, exactly right. I remember her.
I lived a block from that restaurant. I lived a block from that restaurant, and we used to go, and that was the first time like I had had any of that kind of food at all. And I was like, oh my god, what is this? You know what I mean? Like, what's going on?
And I was very fortunate because I don't know if you remember this, but right in that neighborhood, basically across the street from Shenanyanya Koti was the only place, I guess, south of uh Harlem in Manhattan where you could buy that kind of ingredient. But it was a it was a store for West African food run by Asians. By Koreans, that's right. I I remember that place. Wow, you're taking me back.
That was Health Kitchen. Yeah. It was in the Health Kitchen. And uh and yeah, those Koreans had all those funky flavors, you know, the the fermented conch, the the dried fish, you know, all those things were there. The the the locust beans, you know, the netetu, dawadawa, all those things that they you could find it in the Korean place.
It's a big Korean place, too. How did that? All the Africans would just go there. I don't know. I still don't know.
It's still a mystery. We talk about it between us immigrants, and we're like, wow, who was those guys and how, you know, but they just had a flare. They knew that, you know, there was a community, and that community needed to have access to that that those ingredients. You know, those ingredients were so important for me particularly and many of my peers to stay in New York, you know, to endure the cold and all that harshness of New York, we have to have the good food of home. And and that's why that's why we would go by uh by any means to to make that food happen.
And for me, it's really one of the reasons why I focused on on bringing that food culture to to my cuisine. You know, it's really for self-serving because I I miss those flavors. Thank God for those ingredients, those Koreans though. Well, let's uh think about that for a second. Let's go back to Yolele, the first book in in 2009, right?
So as opposed to then like your next book, at least the one that uh you know I know of uh is the uh the the big uh Senegal one, which was when was that in in uh 15 or something like this? 2016, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly 2015. So then, and then just you know, two years ago you had the the phonio cookbook. So that's right.
In the Yolele book, you pretty much say you're not going to get, and you know, I'd love for you to talk about like maybe like you know some of these amazing fermented ingredients like uh netutu like geg like yet so in Yolele you're like you're not gonna find it use fish sauce you know you know what I mean uh which in itself is interesting because you talk about the the Viet you know the group of Vietnamese culture that's in Senegal as well but um so it's kind of an interesting cross but uh now when you're writing recipes w like what in your mind has changed about writing a recipe for someone in the US in terms of what they can get well now I don't have to have all those stages for sourcing the ingredients because it's more accessible. I mean personally I've come up with I created a company that brings those ingredients and the goal is to be more accessible to have like someone in Kansas City or in Missouri come get the ingredients now just by going to to to our e-commerce platform. But those ingredients are more readily available even at Whole Foods now you get some of those ingredients. So it's it's really interesting how 10 years spam so much has changed and and Africa is is the is the new frontier you know people are more interested in those ingredients and the the the the great thing is those ingredients are not only really bringing exotic flavor to your cuisine but they're they're nutritious as well. So that's really um what what you get now the difference between Yolele my first cookbook and and my next cookbook actually I'm I'm working on a on a on a new cookbook with uh with with Clarkson and Product we just signed a new deal and uh and the cookbook is going to be really everyday cooking everyday African cooking but for for for American audience so so it's it's really a a different world now.
Yeah so that's that's uh that's really the the the the the the the fact well I know also like uh I don't know if you want to talk about it but I know that you know for years part of your mission has been to expose America and bring some of these uh flavors and the culture here to America but also to kind of reinvigorate the love of traditional foods back in your home right you want to talk about that at all or absolutely absolutely the the the fact um that we have this beautiful traditional cuisine that has been looked down upon by our own selves sometimes particularly when it comes to the ingredients and this is connected with colonia col colonization you know Senegal was colonized by the French and you know colonization is is was a business you know the French came with a a whole uh politics for our agriculture for instance you know and it's not only the French but the British and every part of of of the world that was colonized there was a a a system uh designed to to really enrich the colonizer so the the the agricultural system in Senegal according to the French to focus on on growing peanuts and for grow for us to grow peanuts we would have to uh to to make sure peanut became a cash crop for the farmers and the gr since you don't eat peanut as a subsistence we would have to import the grain and the French went to Vietnam because Vietnam was also part of their colonial past. And that would so bring the broken rice. And you know what broken rice is? Broken rice is the rice debris, the leftover of the rice. After the rice is processed, the leftover that the Vietnamese used to have for animal feed.
So the French brought it to Senegal and the Senegal embraced it. It became part of our national dish, you know, what we call Chebujin, which is like a really flavorful paya looking dish. And that's that's prepared with broken rice and imported broken rice at that. So we, you know, we have grains, we have our own rice, we have other amazing grains like fogno and millet and sorghum. But we prefer to bring that to to consume that broken rice.
Like we prefer to consume all the things that are that we're not producing because of that colonial mentality. You know, we prefer in Senegal, I don't know if you remember, but you can have baguette bread every every street corner of Dakar, there's like a uh Piotr that sells fresh baguettes, but we don't grow wheat. This is all part of the the French colonial system. So even 60 years after independence, we are still deep in it. So my what part of my mission was to make sure we recognize and and and just bring back those crops that are not only our traditional crops, but that are much more nutritious for for uh uh than the ones that we're importing.
The broken rice has not much nutrition in it, for instance. And in addition, in doing so, we we we're supporting our our economy, our farmers, our small farmers, we are supporting them because we are uh we are consuming what they are growing, and it's more adapted to our system. So this is part of the the mission is to really bring back those traditional crops and those traditional recipes. I mean because they they're great for you and because they're delicious. Also, like I remember like the first thing that struck me is that as opposed to here in America, like there's such a range of different kinds of aged and fermented products that aren't it's not like uh I think most of the time in America we either eat something that's all the way, you know, strongly fermented or aged or or or completely fresh and nothing in between.
And there's such a range. But I think you were telling me that a lot of those kind of cool, like uh, well, these are very aged, but or you know, very fermented, but like gegge or like uh netatou, which we can talk about, were being replaced by kind of more industrial plu products like uh like is it pronounced Maggie or Maggi the cube? I don't know. Mm Magie, Maggie, it depends what part of Senegal you are, but it's both both both pronunciations are right and and that abuse is so wrong. You know, Maggie has Maggie, whichever you want.
You know, because you say cube with the cube in French. The cube magie has replaced those those products, those amazing flavors, you know, those fermented netou and and geg. Because um, you know, those products they they're strong, you know. Sometimes people feel like, you know, it's the the the strong sunky flavor um is not really something they want to have in their kitchen or in their home. You know, they they just prefer Maggie because it's it it it doesn't smell like that.
But no, not realizing that you know the when you cook those flavors, the the the stench is is fading into wonderful flavor in addition to being very good for you, in addition to bringing so much umami to your cooking. Uh but the but the magi is like um you know being used and abused, you know, people are are using magic. I've seen people just crumbling magic cubes directly in their sauce on their sauce before right before eating. You know, it becomes you know, this uh the it's it's an addiction even you know and and it's unfortunate because those companies are coming with so much uh map a big marketing campaign you have big billboard in the car in all the streets of Senegal just promoting those cubes and saying this is better than you know it's it's more convenient than using you know fermented conch or dried gadget dried fish or yet or all those things. So so you know and that same mentality keeps going.
We think we we are like uh becoming modern by using those cubes that are you know manufactured rather than using those traditional natural fermented ingredients which are you know uh so much better in terms of cooking as a chef I know the difference when I cook with uh yet or when I cook with magic you know it's like it's it's like night and day, you know, yet or or native to brings so much flavor, so much more natural flavor. So you know so that's um that's that's the sad reality of modern times. People are just trying to cut corners and go fast and and and magic is like serving that. But uh but I'm I'm really trying to to to work with your LMI company in bringing those flavors, bringing Dawa Dawa for instance we figure out a way to dehydrate Dawa Dawa and you just sprinkle it so it doesn't even have the that that that strong funky smell when you bring it into your into into your kitchen, you know, because Dawadava is a locus bean, you know it's a locus bean from a tree of fruit the and the seed of that fruit is is fermented. So it's like it's it's it's it becomes wet and and we I mean it it has a strong smell.
That's for that's that's true. But if you dehydrate it, that smell tends to go away. So this is what we're doing. We're coming with ingenious way of like bringing the flavors without having the the inconvenience of of the smell of dawada. Well I have so do you so much better than cube.
So you you're selling it, you think more Americans are gonna know it? Uh because I only know it the way you taught me is netatu. But it's also Dawadawa and then also in night what's it in Nigeria? It's uh yeah, yeah, Iru and Dawadawa, both are Nigerians. Yeah.
And uh and and uh Sumbala in Mali and Guinea and Netetu in Senegal. So so since Nigerians are almost a quarter billion people on the planet, so Dawaadawa is the name that's more popular. Yeah, yeah. So I have some of the of your stuff here, and I don't have do you guys have you guys used it? The guys in the studio here, John and Nastasia and and Joe, have you used uh Netatu or Dawadowa before?
No, no. All right. So it is true. So like, you know, when Pierre first uh gave it to me, uh, you know, showed me in the markets in Senegal, it comes in like a ball, right, Pierre? Like in a it's like a yeah or or like or or little pucks or a ball chunks.
And so it's true that this dehydrated. So what I did was is I have his dehydrated powder here, and then I just put some in oil in uh in my uh kitchen and toasted it in the pan to and when you toast it very like in uh in oil, when you uh you fry it a little bit, you get all of these aromas of like uh meat and cheese uh and savory, but then it it it goes into like a much more mellow, I would say, nutty savory kind of a note. When you say, so here you guys are gonna smell the raw, and maybe if you like put a little water, you can smell what it smells like when it rehydrates. But that's not gonna, as Pierre says, not that I'm worried about my kitchen getting stunk up, but that's not gonna stink up your kitchen. Uh but then um smell this one once it's cooked, see the difference.
John is smelling them. Oh, that's really nice. Super nutty. Yeah, it gets very nutty. Nutty.
Do you even notice the slight chocolate flavor? Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's just an amazing product. And like amazing product.
In rices, in stews. And it doesn't have to be even in with African flavors. It works well with uh with American flavors, you know, like uh with with any t any tomato-based stew, right, Pierre? Like um, yep. Yep.
Can make a nice tomato sauce, like even a pasta sauce, and you you'll bring a whole other new dimension to your the layers of flavor that you will get. Something that you know you you cannot fail to notice, but it's pleasant. It's really really pleasant. Like I said, I mean I mean of course. I I've even used it in cream-based uh, I mean, uh you know, again, like I'm not a traditionalist in any sort of anywhere.
Uh, but it's like you know, like uh it's really good. But again, like when you put it in, it's gonna volatilize in your kitchen. Your kitchen's gonna fill with the aroma of netatou, but then as it's flashing off, your the dish itself is becoming more like I say, more savory and more nutty. And once you once you're used to cooking with it, the smell of it cooking is the is the indication that in the future you're gonna get that delicious taste. So then you also like the smell, right?
And it's you know, it's kind of like once you're used to cooking with fish sauce or something like this, you know. That's correct. That's correct. I I like how you describe it because you know this this is really true. You know, now I can walk by a home that's using dawa dawa when they're cooking it.
And I'm I'm like already starting to salivate. It's kind of like a like a reaction because I know the the small the taste that's going to come after, you know, just that smell in that kitchen can just trigger something in my in my uh in my taste buds. So I can I can see what's coming up. So is this one available yet? The Dawa Dawa or no?
The Dawadau is available soon, very very soon. It's actually at Woodlands right now. We found a sourcing. Uh we can bring in Dawadowa from Burkina Faso at the moment and from Ghana. So it will be available very soon.
Check out your lele.com and and uh that's one of our upcoming ingredients. But we already have it in one of in a couple of our products, you know, in in uh our fono pillar. We have dawa dawa, we have the afro funk, which is the name of one of our pillar afro funk because the funk aspect of dawadawa. And we also have our fonio chips now. I don't know if I told you we just launched chips in the market.
And uh, and one of them, yeah. We just launched four flavors of chips. You know, we have the salt chips, we have the green that have moringa in it, we have uh the the sea salt I mentioned, we have the afro funk with uh which is dawadawa in it. So it's a really nice and crispy, it has a nice crispy texture. You know, fonio has really an interesting texture when you make turn it into chips.
Um it tastes crisp, but it's sturdy enough that you can use it to dip a sauce or a salsa. And the one with dawadawa is just amazing. I make some nacho with it. I have a couple of nacho recipes in the F your lele.com. If you go to the the website, you'll see you know, you see the chips.
You can get the chips on the website. Soon you can get the chips at Whole Foods and and at Target as well. So it's um it's uh it's on the process, and that you can get the Dawadowa flavor in it. Yeah, don't go with just Whole Foods, you gotta diversify as we know we just got mutilated by not diversifying it's the worst. Well actually I'm glad you talked about this because the the reason we just we're like oh we need to get Pierre on isn't because you know I love your books and your and your cooking which I do it's because you started this business and a lot of our listeners are interested in starting a food business and I know it's really hard uh and you've been you were working on it for maybe even four or five years before you launched you were talking about Fonio back in 2013 you were already connecting with farmers and all this other stuff and then in in 2017 you started this business Yolele to bring these foods to the United States and that's gotta be an incredibly complicated thing.
And so we just wanted to have you on to kind of talk about that process for people that are interested yeah yeah like you you said you you were there when I started um being interested in bringing the ingredients it was even before 2013 you know earlier if you if you notice in my first cookbook I talk about phony already and I talk about those ingredients and that's you know it all happened organically really um again when I first arrived in New York City African food was missing and I saw it as an opportunity so I started the catering business that became my first restaurant my very first restaurant it was default back to the Grandka actually it was called Yolele. It was in Besta in an area where nothing existed really there was not rest no restaurants let alone a sit down African bistro. So that restaurant turned into another restaurant. And then I noticed as I was writing my cookbooks, I noticed another opportunity was the readers didn't have access to the ingredients. You know so I wanted it to be another way to bring those ingredients.
This is also another way to continue a broader mission of bringing this food culture. So I'm like, if I'm going to bring the ingredients to the readers, I should do it in a way that's not only sustainable, but that really supports the small farming communities that are growing those ingredients. Because those communities, they don't have markets for those ingredients. You know, like the Dawada, for instance, the market was very limited, but even worse for Fonio, because the grains like Fonio, the market was just for the subsistence of the farmers. It was just for the locals.
You know, you would go even to cities like Dhaka or Abidjan or Lagos, you would have problems finding Fonio. You know, you would find easily, like I mentioned, you would find wheat that we don't grow, you'd find baguette bread that we don't grow, you'd find, you know, imported broken rice and things of that sort. That our own grains didn't have markets. So the goal for me really was to figure out a way to bring markets to those small farming community in a way to bring economic prosperity, opportunities to those regions. Because if you go to those regions, you realize one thing is the poverty.
You know, the poverty in rural Africa is just so vast. One thing you notice is most of the men are gone. They're trying to, they're migrating, they're trying to get to Europe for looking for opportunities, looking for work. There's no work there, and they cannot make a dignified living from the farming that they're doing. So that's the reason for Yolele to figure out a way to bring economic opportunities by opening markets for their products because they have amazing products.
I mean, you take talk about fono. I told you so much about fonio, but fonio is this amazing grain. It's resilient. It's been around 5,000 years. It's gluten free.
It's very, very nutritious. But in addition to that, it's great for the environment. It's a grain that grows in poor soil and that restores the soil because it has deep roots that regenerates the soil, that adds nutrients to the soil. It's a grain that's drought resistant, which is very important. Now we're having a water crisis, you know, especially with the climate change that crisis that we are facing.
You know, it's important to think about grain crops like fonio. So that was the idea. For fonio for me was the grain that was checking all the boxes. Well, and so for those people who don't know, like fonio is a tiny, tiny, tiny millet. It's like a very special, very old, tiny millet.
You know, and is that we say it's accurate? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's so it's from the millet family, absolutely. It's uh it scores very low on the glycemic index. So it's recommended for people with diabetes back home.
That's what they give to people with diabetes. And it's the it's rich in two amino acids that are deficient in most major grains. Those are cysteine and methionine, you know, and they're very important for human growth. So there's so much going on for fono. It's very rich in fiber, for instance.
So so uh what I was thinking very naively, though, at the time, I was like, oh, I'm gonna turn this local unknown grain into a world class crop. It was like very naive. But no, but that really kept me uh seeing a bigger picture. It's like this grain can transform this rural Africa, this. This grain can really turn these farmers into importers, you know, like and and really have them just change the situation, the economic situation at least.
So that was really the ambition without knowing that there was going to be so many challenges. I had to create a chain of value that would go from the farmers all the way to the shelves of the supermarket in America, you know, and in Africa, obviously, you know, because the goal was really to turn it into a global crop back home in Africa, in America. Now we are even starting to distribute in Europe. So that was the goal. So, you know, it started with a dream, but you know, how do I do it now?
That was the question I'm sure many of your audience uh are wondering. So, you know, I I thought the best way was to have the right team. You know, first thought first thing I did, I partnered with uh my my co-founder, actually. His name is Philip Tevreau, and he's also a veteran in the food industry. He's been around way back in the back in the days when they were starting to bring quinoa in America.
Like I'm talking about like 20 plus years ago. And you know, I I I liked his experience, and I also like the fact that we didn't want Fonio to be a quinoa story. You want to tell the story of why quinoa was problematic for those that weren't keeping up with the whole quinoa nightmare? Yes, yes. So quinoa, the quinoa became this grain that became quickly very popular.
It's a quinoa that's that's it's a grain that's produced in Latin America in the Andes, you know, Chile, Peru, that area. And it was an ancient grain, just like Fonio, quinoa has been around 3,000 years. Fonio actually has been around 5,000 years. And for for a big part of those 3,000 years, it was just consumed by those people in those regions. And then it got discovered by by the consumers, global consumers, and it became there was a boom around quinoa.
And that was the problem. Because when there was a boom, the supply wasn't there, you know. So a boom is always followed by the bust. You know, that's really the law of the market, that's nature, right? Yeah.
And the locals couldn't afford to buy their own product anymore, right? You had people local. Exactly. Exactly. Because the because there was a boom, the demand, people were coming from all over to buy the quinoa, and the farmers were like, oh, okay, so you you want it so bad.
You know, the prices were going all over the place, and the locals couldn't afford it because you know there were dollars coming to buy it, so you know, the pesos couldn't compete with it. So this is what happened, and this is what we didn't want for Fonio. We didn't want a boom for Fonio. We wanted to make sure as your lele is growing and bringing Fonio and Fonio is becoming more popular. We wanted to make sure the supply is there.
We wanted to make sure we support the farmers. You know, it's important. You know, it has to be the design has to be to make sense, you know. And and it makes sense if you put the farmers and the environment as a priority, you know, and then you know, it the the chain goes all the way to the to the to the shelves of the supermarket. But the farmers have to be able to produce fonio.
So what we realized is by at the at the supply side, you know, like I said, Fonio grows in poor soil, you know. There's a nickname for Fonio, they call it the lazy farmers's crop. Why? Because it's so easy to grow. You know, all you need to do is to throw the seeds when the first rain comes, and you're guaranteed to have a harvest of fonio, regardless of how the season of rain comes or not.
You don't need to till the soil, you don't need to do much work, you don't need any uh fertilizers, you don't need any any pesticides or anything. Fonio is so sturdy and resilient. So we we thought we the challenge with fono though was in the processing. You know, like uh Dave, you mentioned it's a tiny, tiny type of millet, it's a tiny grain, and each grain is covered with a skin that's inedible. So you have to remove that skin before fono becomes food.
And the farmers who are spending so much time to process it, uh the first they were using a uh a pestle, you know, mother and pestle, which would take two hours just to process one kilo of fonio. So it was really, really uh long and tedious process. Then uh, shake her head saying she's not gonna do it. She's like, I'm not doing it. I'm not gonna do it.
Nastasia, you don't have to do it anymore. You don't have to do it. You you you you you go to you go to you go to your lili.com and and the ponyo comes cleaned up for you. But but what what we realized, you know, is not only that process was taking so long, but the waste in that process, during that process, even when the the the processing started to become mechanized, you know, there was some uh machine that came up that was processing phonio locally, you know, but it still was a long and the waste was was uh was amazing. It was almost fifty percent of waste, which was crazy.
So we realized that we needed to focus into the processing aspect and into research as well. So we we worked with researchers, local researchers in Senegal, in Mali, in collaboration with um Cornell University here, and just to improve the agriculture of Fonio. And some something that we came up with was just growing, realize that just growing fonio in raw can almost double the production, the the yield of fonio. Because before, like I said, fonio was just this patch, which is just throw it when you grow it. You just throw the seeds and then anywhere on the field, then it's gonna grow.
But if you grow it in, plant it in row, you can have a higher yield, almost double. And another way is if you perfect, if you have a better way of processing it, which what we which is what we did. We're working with um local uh uh industrials to bring a mill that will process fonio at one ton at three tons per hour. So it's like we're gonna have uh close to a hundred tons a week of fonio now. That's good.
And that's processed with and without without the waste, without the 50% waste. So the limit on growing was production is double. The limit on growing was the limit on processing, not the limit on the land. Exactly, exactly. The land is plentiful, you know.
You know where the land is, fonio grows in an area called the Sahel, which is south of the Sahara. There's plenty of land. You know, the land is like dry and arid, not much growth, but fonio can thrive in that area. So there's plenty of land. All the farmers need to focus on now is to keep growing fonio on that land.
And what they do, not only they grow fonio on that land, but we encourage them to do it the traditional way, which is growing in rotation. You know, they would grow fonio in one season and then they would grow another crop that's called bambara beans, which is also a crop that adds nitrogen to the soil and that allows the soil to be ready for the next fono uh season. So it's really the way a way to not only enrich the soil, respect the soil really, the environment, but it it it slows the advance of the desert. Because we want to do that in addition to planting certain types of trees. Those trees are called acacia.
That they also add they also add um nutrition to those nutrients to the soil. Do you plant the ones that you can get uh the gum out of or no? Yes, absolutely. Those are the ones, they're the local ones. So so you it's you you great question that you just asked.
So the communities, the local communities, they they have different ways of bringing uh income into their their their communities because the acacia you can get gums and can get income from the gum, the Arabic gum. It's a there's a is a big business out of that. And then you have the fonio, and then you have the the bambara beans. The bambarra beans is another interesting crop. It's an ancient crop that looks like like peanuts, it tastes like peanuts, but it doesn't have the allergies of peanuts.
And it got replaced by peanuts because peanuts were so much easier to process. And that's what happened, you know, with with modern time. We're looking for the the shortcuts and we and and those grains started to disappear. The bambarra beans started to disappear. You only see it locally.
So the goal with Yolele is to bring back that that that that that crop, bambera beans, and and open a market for that, just like what we did with Fonio. And in doing so, we're doing in West Africa. When they say groundnut, they mean peanut. They don't mean this other one, do they? Or do they mean this other one?
Well, they well, it was this other one first, but now it's it became peanuts because peanuts is the one that you see everywhere now. But it was groundnut, it was bambera beans. That's what it was. Can you roast them the same way you roast a peanut? You can roast them, you can boil them, you can turn them into milk, you can, you know, you can do so much with the same thing you do with peanuts.
The difference is the shell is harder. You have to crack the shell. I love it. I love the boiler. The way you do is boiled peanuts is the best.
It's the best. I love boiled peanuts. I grew up eating my parents are from the south of Senegal, Kazamus. Over there, that's what how we eat peanuts, we boil it. And and then when I saw that they were boiling peanuts in Southern America, in in Southern food as well, I was like, wow, you know, you make the connections obviously, you know, there's middle passage.
There's so much food that came from from West Africa to to like New Orleans and Louisiana and Carolinas. So boiled peanuts land. That's why that's where you see it there. So it's it's coming from Cazamas. I love it.
Well, I gotta get some questions in before we run out of time. Although I do it the one bad thing about switching to this new better production system that you have is you no longer have the motto, you throw it and you grow it. Which is a great motto to tell any farmer. Yes, you throw it and you grow it. That's it.
You know what I mean? Anyway, uh yeah, no, it's that that model is still gonna stay, you know. It's just that there's there's gotta be making sure the the the production is increasing as the demand is increasing, otherwise, we have another quinoa story. And the sad thing, when you have another quinoa story, not only the locals cannot get the quinoa, but the quinoa is being grown in other parts of the world because the the demand has is is still increasing so now you have quinoa grown in ukraine in Texas in Montana and and this is something we're also trying to to to protect we want to protect the name Fonio on a regional level so that its appellation is going to be just for that region of origin. You know just like you we do they do in France with with champagne and and in Italy in with their wines and all that so that's what we're working on right now with DFAO.
Well and I guess there's there's uh there's precedence for that with with different varieties of rice right like you can't grow can you right I don't know I think yeah yeah no absolutely absolutely um there's uh you know like uh the basmadi and and the they they they the in Indians at certain parts have their own but they're if you call it if you have it here you have to have a slightly different name but it's not the same rice you know you cannot call it that rice that's that variety there's a few a few other crops like that so you know we we have a model to use all right Darren asks Darren Van Groff asks is anyone making a phonio millet beer that is available in the US I've had uh some home brewed uh burkinabe version called Dolo but never seen anything like it in the US now I know that you were working with Brooklyn with Garrett uh and they did a couple of batches but did it ever uh is it is it ever gonna happen commercially or no absolutely absolutely it's gonna happen commercially that beer is absolutely delicious Garrett Oliver from uh Brooklyn Beer approached me when he knew about uh what I was doing is Fonio and uh you know he approached me in that same spirit. His idea was if you turn it into a beer, there's gonna be so much phonyl phono used for that, and that's going to support the small farming communities where the fonio is coming from. And we said absolutely. So it started with a good idea, and then he imported a few tons of fonio to do his testing, and then it turned out that Fonio beer was a amazing tasting beer. Garrett was so excited.
He was like, Wow, you know, I mean, I thought I was just doing a good action, but it's like an amazing beer. And we tasted it and we started passing it around, and everyone at Brooklyn Brewery was so excited. And uh so we were launching it, you know. We had even a name, Taranga for the beer, and we were launching it in uh when when the pandemic hit. Yeah.
So um the biggest the biggest distribution was in the bars and and and and restaurants. So we it put a stop on it, but they started they started distributing it even in Japan, because you know, Brooklyn Brewery is is uh owned by a bigger brewery, Japanese brewery. So it's like um it's it's distributed in Japan and this and he's very excited. We we recently got a big order of Fonio again from Brooklyn Brewery. The the it's going on, it's really going to happen.
Yeah, I mean I've had I've had it, it's good. You uh we had it at the MoFad fundraiser once, right? That's right. Yes, there we go. That's right.
That's right. How'd you like it? I thought it was delicious. Um everyone liked it. Um now that's different from in your I forget which book, whether it's the Fonio book or the Senegal book.
You have a recipe for Fonio beer, but that's more of like a a home a home beer where it's like sugar and fonio, not like what they're doing at Brooklyn. That's right, different. That's the one Darren is talking about. Uh, the the the the guy who asked the question. Yeah.
Because he had it in Burkina Faso, you know, in Burkina Faso, it's dolo. They call it dolo, and we yeah, he's right, it's made with fonio for the most part. It's uh and you know, it's it's it's beer technically, but it's not the beer that you would have in you know in in the market here. You know, first of all, it's really usually drank at room temperature, very warm, and it knocks you out for real. It knocks you out.
But it's it's uh it's a dolo. It's uh you know, you get you get addicted to it though. If you like it, you know it's uh it's a great it's a great beer. But you see it everywhere, not only in Burkina Faso, all the way to Zimbabwe. You have like the uh this kind of grain beer that's uh that are popular in Africa.
Well, if you ever uh if we ever work out and get to go back, me you'll you'll get me to try some. I still does your guy is your is your coconut wine guy still alive or no? Which one? The co the coconut wine guy in Casamance. Is he still alive or is he dead?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I uh it's a good question. I think he's still alive. He was in very good health. I haven't been.
I was in Catalans recently, just uh last month actually, but just for a day. You know, I was in Dakar to change the menu at the Pullman Hotel that's um the signature chef there. And I went to Casamas for a brief visit. I didn't get to the village. No, I but I I think he's you know, he he looks great.
So I think he's still alive. That guy has like uh uh a great shape and great diet, so I don't think uh I don't think COVID got to him. I mean he was climbing trees when he was eighty, you said, right? I mean he's a exactly. Yeah.
Uh Yusuf Travel. I think he's still climbing trees. Well, I mean, let's hope. I mean, some uh like you know, one of these days I'm gonna get to go there in February and see the the rice harvest uh someday. Uh before I'm dead, maybe.
We'll see. Uh Youssef Trevalli wrote in uh wants to know Pierre how you switched from math and physics to becoming a chef. Well and that's another that's a another story but um but yeah I studied as a math and physics student actually I was at Dakar University and uh and from Dakar University you know late 80s we were very political you know especially in Senegal there was a lot of student unrest and and I was part of that that uh that system the students we were on strike we went on on strike for so long that that year the government decided to shut down the school system because we had so many days of strike and we had to start all over and this is really how everything started for me. That's how I got a student visa to come to the US I was on my way to just finishing my degrees in physics and chemistry. I was on my way to Ohio out of all places you know and and and I stopped by New York because um you know I had a friend who lived in New York and and I I was like everyone wants to see New York at least once you know before you die so that was my thing.
I'm like gonna stop by New York and be here for one week, two weeks and then go to Ohio and just uh stay there and do my studies. And when I arrived in New York, remember I mentioned Timesquare that's where we stayed Timesquare in that in the 80s Timesquare was like crack epidemic and and aid and it was it was crazy crazy and and all those and all that. Yeah watch watch the deuce it was it was really like that watch the deuce. I mean I started going in the seventies and went all through the eighties you know I was mugged in Timesquare whole nine the whole thing. You know I had the the legitimate experience Yeah, I was robbed three days after I arrived in New York.
I was robbed. But I was, you know, that robbing was a blessing. I lost everything. It was crazy, crazy. But uh, that's when I realized, you know, I was stuck.
I still had my return tickets, and I was very tempted to return to Senegal. This country was crazy. I'm like, well, I get robbed. These guys are like, I mean, I see zombies walking down the street. You know, I mean, it was like it was crazy.
And nothing, you know what I expected, you know, because I, you know, before coming, you have an idea of the United States and New York and you know, the music, you know, the Jacksons and all that. So and then you hear and you have like, wow, you know, so I get robbed and I'm like, I'm returning to New York, to Senegal. But a friend of mine, he was working in a restaurant. I don't know if you remember, there was a restaurant in the West Village called Garvin's. So, you know, near near uh on Waverly Place.
So, so so he was working at that restaurant, and he was like, Oh, they're looking for a bus boy. You know, you can come and make a little extra money, you know, before uh deciding returning to Senegal. At least you have some money or or whatever you want to do. And I and I got to that restaurant, and this is how you know I got only from busing, I had my first cultural shock, you know, in that kitchen. There were only guys in that kitchen, and I come from a culture where uh only women in the kitchen, and I'm like, wow, who are these guys?
What they're doing in the kitchen was a little funny. But the chef became a friend of mine because you know, he was he thought I was really into what he was doing, but I was just checking those guys out, cooking these amazing things, you know, that looked like my mom's cookbook. My mom had a uh collection of cookbooks and the pictures. I used to love them looking at those pictures, and now I'm like in this restaurant, and the pictures look like my mom's cookbooks. And I'm like, wow, this is amazing.
This and they're guys, you know. So the chef, like the chef had studied in French, Billy, and he wanted to practice his French with me. And he's like, you know, you can take extra shifts since you want to make extra money. Take extra shifts and you come in the in the kitchen as a dishwasher. When you finish your busing shift, you know, and you come in as a dishwasher and you you learn gradually, you know, it's like that's how I learned, you know, you learn from the bottom up, and that's how I did.
I learned from the bottom up. And you know, after you know, a few months of dishwashing, I was already peeling vegetables because the you know, prep guy didn't show up. So you they start it start to teach you how to peel vegetables and onions, and then gradually you learn your knife skills, and then next thing you know, you're in the garden station. And then you realize that, hey, this is all chemistry, you know, especially when you're in the garden station, and you see the the sauces, you know, the the vinaigrette is really an emulsion that you've learned in chemistry. It's like acid and lipid being an emulsion, you know, and and then if you pay more attention, every single thing in the kitchen is really a chemical reaction.
Cooking is chemistry, really, and and a type of chemistry that I loved so much more than the one I had when I was doing math and physics and actually it was I was a student in physics and chemistry, not in math and physics, but uh but that's the kind of uh uh of of uh chemistry I like so much, you know, immediate gratification. You like you cook it, you taste it, you know. You go to that lab and you taste it, and it's delicious, and you can share it with other people. So I really got the bug, and I never looked back. I and started to read as much as I could, and and over the years work from that restaurant, climb my way up in that restaurant, and then went from that restaurant to working to Italian restaurant and then French bistro, open round clothes in Soho.
From there, I went on to open boom, you know, boom was another restaurant that really changed everything for me because that was focusing on global ethnic and the chef was bringing in inspirations from Southeast Asia and that's really when I was like wow these flavors you know fermentation and all that that kind of takes me back to Senegal you know because Senegal you know we have that the same fermentation culture and the grains were there plus we have this Vietnamese community which I was connected with already in Senegal through their food and that was you know when I thought you know why is not is there not any Senegalese food here and and that restaurant was so successful big boom that I got they opened a new place and I was promoted as a chef de cuisine in that place and I started to offer those flavors of my childhood it was really flavors from memory and and no and that's a long way to say you know to explain how I turned from physics and chemistry to to cooking but I I can go on and on but this is the whole story. That's so old school you never made it to Ohio you didn't go to Ohio never made never made it to Ohio and I heard I didn't miss much Ohio no offense. So let me just let me add uh me like ask a uh follow-up on that so then did you because you didn't cook growing up did you go back and then hang out with your family to get to get the like the Senegalese cooking or like what how did that work? Yeah I've absolutely it started with my mom first of all when I had to tell finally tell my parents that I was not actually going to school and all this time I've been in the kitchen. You know, that was the the the the thing I was so nervous telling them because first of all you know they they expected you to to get your degree and and become an engineer and now you're in the kitchen and I'm like in the kitchen they're probably never going to respect that because in Senegal the men men are not in the kitchen.
You know and and I was shocked my mom was so supportive and she started talking cooking with me you know immediately she was like on the phone you know like you know we would I would just get inspiration asking her for recipes from you know remembering recipes um food that I would eat from her and she would give me the recipe that would write them down and test them and adapting them to the the kitchen you know the the the the modern kitchen and and then you know I realized it was time for me to go on a pilgrimage and I went on a couple of pilgrimages and they I really wanted to spend time with the women because they are the ones who were the one who had the secret so I would spend time with my mom my aunt I would go all the way to the village the grandmas and the the distant cousins and stuff and if you see my first book Yolele you notice that there was every now and then there are pictures and portraits of women of my family those are the women I spent time with and I wanted the book to be a tribute to them and really through them to be a tribute to to women of Africa really because that's a continent where women are cooking and they are the ones who kept that tradition of from generation to generation just passing it on to their daughters who will pass them to pass it on to their daughters and and I'm the guy who who got here and and luckily you know I I got I got that knowledge through them and I took it to the international level, but that really was without them, none of this would happen. So I really wanted the book to be about that. And I I kept, you know, traveling to Africa, not only Senegal, but other parts of Africa. And I knew that I wanted to hang out with the women and go in their kitchen and go to the markets. The first thing I would do, go to the market, taste the food, and then you know, and then go to spend time with women.
And that's really my my formation. You know, it starts with the memory, the food that I loved eating as I was a kid, and then tracing it back and just having them reveal the secrets gradually. And those secrets I would write them down. And at the at some point I realized that I had so many recipes that I could produce a book, and that's that became my very first cookbook. All your cookbook photography is beautiful.
Adam Bartos is here, a photographer, does a great job. They look great. You know, and I mean all the books look great. Yeah, I've been very fortunate. I've worked with amazing photographers.
Adam Batos is a world-class photographer, and he he he jumped on the opportunity. I told him, you know, let's go to Senegal. And he he he came with me and we traveled around and he had the time of his life. Senegal too. I worked with Evan Song.
Evan Song, who's working on my next cookbook as well. So uh Evan Sung works on two cookbooks with me, and Adam Batos also worked on two cookbooks because he worked on the ponio cookbook a lot. Yeah, which by the way, at the at the end you have all the pictures of the producers, 75%, 80% are women. Exactly, exactly, because Fogno is a is a is a woman crop. They like to call it the women's crop.
You know, women played such a big role in in preserving our our tradition and our culture. And and and Fogno is one of them, you know. The cooking is definitely one of them. They passed it on and on and on, and that's how this the this food is uh accessible to us now. But without them, you know, without that that tradition of like just making sure your daughters know how to cook because she's gonna be cooking for her family and then she's gonna make sure her daughters know how to cook and what she learned is the thing that she has been this ancient ancient recipes that's been being passed on from generation to generation and that's how you see it certain recipes that you see here you see gumbo in in in in New Orleans it's because those women came here too and they knew how to cook it the same gumbo recipe you have it in Senegal it's the same okra seafood everything the rice the way we cook rice jollof rice you see it in all the form that becomes jambalaya you know that's just because those traditions were kept and passed on from generation so it transcends time and borders and and it's really the amazing food thing about food you know because you want to bring your food everywhere you go.
We're running out of time we've got a couple questions we got to get to for you that I don't want to miss uh Joshua Kuhn wrote in now Joshua Kuhn's a big uh hunter in like the western part of the US and the northwest not northwest like Oregon like northwest like Montana that kind of Dakotas that kind of thing he he asked despite the poaching and illegal trade problems has Senegal been able to hold on to a culture of subsistence hunting if so which animals and how are they traditionally prepared yes yes uh it's very very limited unfortunately because um um yeah the the poaching has been has been there and those animals are are disappearing but now you have you still have hunting and mostly is um um uh gazelles you see that in south Sun in south senegal, in Casamas, in uh and in in kadugu, that area. And so it's it's game, you know, like you most mostly gazelles, you have uh porcupines, you know, that's something that's also being hunted. You have um it's sadly, you know, but the the the last uh parts of of where you see lions have been you know they they've been disappearing because of the the hunting as well. So so that's that part is is is is is illegal but it's still happening. It seems to start happening for for different reasons.
But uh most of the things is gazelles, you know you have gazelles and and and you know it's kind of a deer like uh animal that you see in Senegal. And you have hugs as well. How do you prepare a porcupine? Well you have to make sure you you you you clean the skin well you take out the the the spikes and the and then usually it's a stew you know it's a stew like and it's it has a it's has a pleasant but very you know game uh tasting even smell when you cook it but it as too it's it's a delicacy people love it those people who if you're lucky to get onto on the on the porcupine you know it's a delicacy and you and and that's that yeah and you also have uh obviously the small ones too the the rabbits there's one uh they call it rapal mist and it's it's uh it's it's not a rat you know it's not a rat from like the one you see in New York it's a it's a bush rat you know and uh it's it's it it it's of it eats herbs and grass it's it's a vegetarian obviously and it's uh it's very popular in in certain parts of Senegal as well. Does it taste like squirrel being hunted.
It tastes like squirrel I guess no, I never had squirrel, but I guess it tastes like sort of it kind of looked like squirrel in size. Sometimes it can be a little bigger, even. But um, but it's also gaming. Uh and sometimes they smoke it, you know, before cooking it, so it's smoked like you know, wood fire, and then you have the smoke, and that's even before skinning it, and then you skin it, and then that you know the smoking pot allows it to travel, so it's it's it's it's dried up, it doesn't it doesn't rot anymore. So it's it you can travel long distances.
Wait, so they smoke it till it's dry and then rehydrate it in a stew? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. No, I think I've seen that before. Did they used to import any of that illegally into that store that I used to go to?
It yeah, probably. Probably that stone amazed me. They had like everything. I mean, really everything you may need for West African cooking, you would go to that Korean store. Yeah, I wish we were still there.
Thank God for them. They allowed us to stay alive, you know. Many of us would have left New York if we didn't have access to those that food. So they they were great. And had a random name, the International Grocery.
Anyway, uh that's right. Uh is a Josh, Josh Josh in the chat says he's eaten porcupine, praised it and would describe the taste as musty but good. Musty but good. So like must must he like beaver tail? Anyway.
Uh Isabella de Giulio wrote in uh hey, uh for Senegalese food, uh, what's Pierre's favorite way to use uh netatu slash uh Dawadawa and Phonio also? I've been making porridge from it and it's delicious. I want to ask about the ferments he's tried, or would like to try making it home from Senegal. So uh uh sh is she in Senegal, she said? Well no, no, no.
She's asked she's asking about like uh Senegalese things to do, that your favorite things to do with uh with those things, uh maybe like with a with an accent on fermented products. Oh, okay. So netetu what what what I like to do, and that's what we do traditionally, you know, you you can rehydrate it, right? The dried one by simply you know taking onions. You know, you you you you you you use the mortar and pesto.
You can if you don't have that, you can just blend it all together. The metetu and onions and garlic, you can add ginger if you want, and you blend it together and you add salt. Some people like to add chili, so you can add cayenne pepper, you can add a scotch bonnet if you really like it spicy, but you can even add the scotch bonnet without putting the seeds in it. And you blend it into a paste, and that paste becomes, you know, you can shape it into bowl, a bowl, right? And uh, you know, like a small bowl.
And one thing I really like, it's very simple. You know, when you cook your rice, you know, steam your rice, white rice plain, and then towards the end of cooking the rice, you dig a hole in the middle of the rice and you put that bowl inside that bowl of uh uh netu, right? You know, the bowl with like the onions and and the scotch bonnet and all that in the middle and you cover it with the rice and for the last minutes of steaming the rice, no, like the last 10 minutes or so. And then that rice will have like this amazing flavor. You know, you you serve the rice, you make sure you take the bowl out and you put the bowl on the side.
Traditionally, I don't know if you remember how we eat around the bowl, you know, we have the big bowl and the the rice is in in there, and uh, you know, you put whatever sauce you want and and and and meat and vegetables, but that rice has a nice, really subtle fermented flavor, just because the last minute there was this steamed um uh fermented bowl inside it. And that from time to time you take a piece of the nette too, you can add it to the rice and the sauce. It really uh adds uh you know, like a nice bunch of of uh of of nette to in your in your mouth food. So it's really uh uh a way I like to do it, but there's so many other ways to do it. You know, you can just simply sprinkle it into your sauce and and taste it and and add as you as you like until you get the flavor that you want in it.
You can put it in your tomato sauce, like you mentioned, it's great with the tomato sauce. You think that would work in a rice cooker? Yeah, yeah, it would work in a rice cooker. You do it, you cook the rice, and then when you're going to keep the rice warm, right? You open it and you and you put that bowl inside.
You you know, you shape the bowl with uh everything, the onions and everything, and you put it inside, you cover it with the rice, right? You put you dig a hole and you put the bowl, you cover it with the rice, and then you close your rice cooker and you allow it to you allow it to stay warm for however time you want, and you'll see the difference. I love it like that. It's it's really great. And with a simple sauce on top of it, it's like amazing.
It's amazing. I will try that. Uh John, you got a couple questions for Pierre, you gotta rip off? Uh, not for Pierre specifically. Oh, I thought you had some Pierre's though.
We gotta uh so one last thing on the way out because uh I'll get murdered if I don't. So let's talk uh Tbu Gen for a minute. Uh now all of so it's fish with it's fish and broken rice and vegetables and tomato and the fermented products like netted to geg yet, right? Uh and you stuff the fish with an herb mixture beforehand, right? And people can look it up.
That's not that's not what's important. But it's uh you'd say it's like culturally maybe the most important dish, right? Or no? Oh yeah. It's the national dish of Senegal.
Yeah. So it it it's I read a bunch of recipes for it, and what interests me about the recipes, at least the ones that seem kind of more serious, is that there's a very specific layering of food. Like put this in, take out, remove, and and rest while you cook the rest. Very, very specific, right? You know, the fit the fish goes in for this amount of time with the vegetables, the fish comes out, this vegetable comes out first, then this vegetable, then more liquids added, then rice, then at like it's all very and like you know, you put the netatu in at this point, you put the geg in at this point, you know what I mean?
So it's like very, very specific. So what is the difference, like how like it's clearly like culturally mediated, but also probably taste mediated. So what is the effect of like all of that time layering? Well, the effect is you'll you'll see it at the first bite. You know, the first time you put a spoonful or a handful, because we eat with our hands.
Remember that? Yeah, yeah. So first time you put a ha a handful of that rice into your mouth, you're going to taste if you pay really that good attention, you're gonna taste all those layers. You know, you'll taste the the the geg and the yet, which are the fermented part that's been added in that broth. Because there's there's level, right?
You do okay? Let's let's go back through the steps of cooking chewujan. You know, you start with the tomatoes and the onions and the oil, you cook it very slowly until the tomatoes have released all their sugar. And then you add the broth, right? Or the water, because the water is going to turn into broth.
And you add the water and then your vegetables. You take the vegetable first, the starchy vegetables that are going to take a little longer to cook, like cassava or carrots. You know, and the vegetables are optional, the one you're choosing, but you traditionally it's usually cafava carrots, you know, sometimes sweet potatoes. And then you cook them and you take them out. Then you add your cabbage, your eggplants, you know, you cook them and you take them out, you know.
And when you cook them until they get to that, you know, almost like, you know, it still has some bite to it, but it's very soft. And you take it out. But all those flavors have been in that broth now, right? Then you add your fish. That fish has been stuffed with that parsley mixture that we call rough.
You know, you that parsley has garlic, scotch bonnet, parsley in it, and salt and pepper, and you pound it well into a paste and you stuff the fish, and then you cook it. So that fish, usually it's a whole fish, or it's the fish that has a steak fish, you know, with the bones and all that. So you add another fish broth uh flavor that adds to the vegetable flavors, and you have added now the fermented, you know, fermented conch, uh dried fish. So that's also that fermented flavor that comes out. So all those layers come.
And the last part, you know, when you take all those things out, you have a broth. In that broth, you add the rice. The rice cooks and the rice comes out with all those flavors in it. But but with you, when you before you add the rice, you take some of that broth out, and in that broth that's gonna serve as a sauce, you add some tamarind too. You know, you add tamarind in that broth.
So you have the acidity of the tamarind and the fruitiness of it and the and the fermented and the the and and the vegetable stock and the fish stock and the spiciness from that the mixture that you use to do to stuff the fish. So it's so intense and so delicious. And that's why you know it it's kind of uh laughable when they compare Chewujan to paya, really, because it's so much more uh I mean, really, right? I was smoking like a true chauvinist, I love it. I love it.
I mean, um I am really telling the truth here, but it's like it's it's a pie with flavor, with so much flavor, you know. But no, the only uh the resemblance is that it's served the same way it's the it's the rice, that's red rice and and seafood and vegetables, whichever, you know, and it serves on a on a bowl, you know, like the the Spanish do. That's the only dish they serve on a bowl on a platter, you know. So that's how we do it. But that's the only difference.
The rest, you know, there's so much flavor in Chewigen. And those those the the those steps bring it in, yeah. Yeah, you're making me very hungry. Uh and also congratulations, you have a fairly young daughter. Uh I if you wanna pronounce her name, I don't want to butcher it.
It's a beautiful name now. Naya, Naya. So it's N-A Apostrophe I A. So it's Naya. Naya.
No, congratulations, Pierre. Thanks for coming on. And uh everyone needs to look out for uh the phonio products in Whole Foods and Target and look out for the phoneio beer. Is it gonna be called taranga or no? Teranga, yeah.
It's gonna be called teranga, and uh and there's gonna be drafts as well. And uh and there's other other ideas that uh Brooklyn Brewery is coming up with, but I let them announce it with the Fonio beer, so it's it's it's there. Oh and and you can get all those Fonio products at Yolele.com before going to Whole Foods. Go to Yolele.com. That's where it's uh that's that's where you really have an impact on uh on the communities that are growing it.
Yeah, go to the source first. Uh and I think Nastasia, correct or not correct? Today is the motto from today is they robbed me, they took everything I had, it was a blessing. Cooking issues.
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