Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live on the New Stand Studios from Rockefeller Center in Midtown, New York. John, it's uh it's midtown, right? Yep, midtown. Kind of midtown.
I mean, isn't Rockefeller Center its own kind of neighborhood? It's like right in the middle of Midtown, it's been midtown west of Midtown East, so midtown midtown. All right, all right. Uh not joined in the studio as usual with uh Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, she is having uh technical difficulties calling in, which means, cooking issues uh crowd, that if uh you are the kind of people that watch the Rankin and Bath Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer Christmas special, if you're one of the people that that watches those, you have one more week to find in that show what I have always thought is an error, a mistake made in the show, but in fact, my son Dax has proved to me is in fact genius. Is in fact genius.
Um Jackie Molecules also is not gonna be calling in. He's having issues, but he is gonna be on the Discord uh taking care of all of your stuff if you're a Patreon listener. And for the first time today in the booth, we have Hassan Moore on the on the what do you call that, the panel, on the mixing panel. How are you doing, Hassan? Thank you for having me.
Well, no, thanks for doing it. And uh Hassan's dealing with uh a bunch of issues because cooking issues, we bring the bad luck with us wherever we go. So uh, you know, they moved uh they moved uh Newstand Studios back into a studio while they were done or construction, and so they uh decided that we didn't need lights today. It's kind of fun. So he's working in the dark.
How do you like that, Hassan? It's intimate. I like it. Yeah. And uh the first time I have uh someone uh on, you know, officially doing this, I have to ask them some questions so that the listeners know something about you.
What do you like to eat? Um my girlfriend told me I have the palate of a five-year-old. So I would say Italian food, Chinese food, and burgers. Hmm. And do you do you cook it all or no?
You know, very minimal. I cook pancakes. My mother makes a salmon dish that I like, and I'm pretty good at cooking that. All right, well, let me ask you this about pancakes, and then I'll let you go off the hook. All right.
Okay. Okay. Uh, first of all, I'm gonna ask you several questions about pancakes. What size pancakes do you typically make? Bigger than silver dollar, but smaller than those 45-size pancakes.
Alrighty. And are you a buttermilk or a milk person? Milk person. Okay. And do you flip when the bubbles don't c re-collapse?
In other words, when the bubbles stay open on the top, or do you flip just when you start seeing bubbles? That's an interesting question. I think I wait a little while until I see a good amount of bubbles. The ones that don't kind of close up all the way, so it almost looks like it's gonna be a crumpet and then you flip it, like that kind of thing? Correct.
Because to me, John, right or wrong, that's kind of one of the main things. When do you flip the pancake? I've had like hour-long arguments about people when you flip the pancake. It's really more complicated than that because it really depends on how stiff the batter is and how thick the pancake's gonna be. But that's what people think about when they think about it.
All right, listen, before I give you the telephone number for live Patreon listeners, because I'm gonna want to tell you why you're gonna want to call in right now. We have, we're extremely honored to have with us special guest, like world famous. I've never met him actually, I don't think. Virgilio Martinez is on the phone. Uh, how are you doing, Chef?
Hi, how are you? Doing quite well. So great to be with you. So so listen, we're talking like uh the chef of uh Central in in in Lima in Peru. By the way, I'm chef, I'm embarrassed to say I have never been to Peru.
Everyone that I know who has gone to Peru. It's crazy I've never been it's like it's uh you know everyone tells me it's like the new food capital of the world Peru and I've not been isn't that stupid? Oh well just I mean to Lima suppose go to the Amazon it's there's so much uh biodiversity and and so many places to just not the restaurants uh just natural uh environments where you can enjoy food yeah very beautiful yeah but I mean yeah sure I've never been south of Colombia it's one of my great regrets the problem is I don't I've never like in the entire world I've never been south of Colombia I've made it just to the equator and no further well I want to Colombia Colombia is quite quite nice. Um the Amazon of Colombia is nice beautiful have you been there I have never been to the Amazon I've only been to uh I've only been to like Bogota and to like uh Cindido where the coffee plantations are and Cartagena but the beautiful yeah I like more the up in the mountains and we're gonna we're gonna talk about that in a minute. So call your questions uh for the chef into 917 410 1507 that's 917 410 1507 but I have to ask you this I I read in your bio that you worked at Lutes in New York.
Sure. That was amazing yeah one one of the um major things that I'm very I'm I'm actually very proud of of of being just part of that uh team long time ago. Yeah. When were you at Lutes? Uh we were like uh it was part of the last uh era of of Luther uh just uh when uh David Fern was the chef and and uh we were yeah we were close in the restaurant.
So actually it was after uh it was after I was still I was I was uh Miller after the German chef. After Andre Saltner had already I love Andre Soltner. Yeah and yeah Andre Sonia yeah he was he was still there but he wasn't able to I mean he wasn't he wasn't cooking because he was uh he was yeah uh he was too I think he was too old uh obviously but uh then uh we we we had uh a new generation of chefs uh taking over uh the the kitchen but uh it was tough times uh for you know for French uh uh food in New York uh you know the the Japanese were were coming in uh different uh topic cuisines uh were coming to New York so it wasn't all about uh Italian and French cuisine like uh fine dining so it was tough. Yeah. Uh now worked all over when did you open your restaurant Central which is always on like the on the top fifty list etc.
Two thousand eighteen. Sorry, two thousand eight yeah uh we opened in in Lima in in the district of uh Miraflores and then we we just moved uh uh uh about four years to Barranco which is another place in Lima and since then uh now we've uh yeah, we're quite happy about the place because uh we see a a bright uh future uh you know after all this uh disaster uh happening uh during this past uh model. Uh yeah uh so what what I want to talk about uh I guess at Central is the kind of famous idea of the tasting menus based on altitude. And I think you know, the one thing like I like I told you when I went to Colombia, what I what I kind of loved is you choose your kind of climate and you choose kind of the ingredients based on the altitude. And you have uh because the you know the mountains are so high and the temperature changes.
But what's so amazing is is that you have ingredients in these different places that can only grow in like there because they need a constant temperature or relatively constant temperature, like all the time, which you can only get in these kind of equatorial highlands. You want to talk about cooking based or not cooking, but uh ingredients based on altitude? Sure. And and actually we have another restaurant which is in at uh almost four thousand meters above the level, uh up in the mountains in the Andes of the Ruy Cusco, uh the place called Mill, where we were working with local communities and we just serve food just coming from that area. I mean, we don't have any any any food that we serve here in Central Lima, uh, where we are just in front of the sea.
Uh we don't have any any seafood and no no food coming from the episode, just food that grows in this specific attitude. So uh but there's different uh elevations even in the mountains in the Andes. So you can in some places you find that you see the quinoa, all these Andean grains, uh different varieties of quinoa because not only a few as many people uh believe that we uh we got the black one, the yellow one, uh the the white and the red. So that's uh there are many others. And then we have some other kind of ambient grains, and then we have another another another ecosystem the attitude where you find um uh different vegetable roots and different varieties of potatoes and we got uh we catalog uh I mean by the by the by what one institute uh 4700 varieties of potatoes in one region uh and uh this is quite a lot of ingredients and then uh there's another another place in in this uh in these mountains where you find different varieties of corn and then uh fruits uh then we have the surface valley I don't know if you if you if you have heard about this area uh near but in Cusco we're uh it's surrounded by by beautiful fruit and aromatic so uh most most of the food that that uh we we consume there is uh like uh there is more like vegetables uh I wouldn't say like everything is vegan uh there's also meat uh uh but uh yeah it's most about vegetables um cacao for instance coffee uh the cacao from the from the elevations is it's quite unique same with the the the coffee Cusco is so high how do you cook there is it very hard to do like like how hard is it to adapt to cooking that high up it's so high.
Oh yeah yeah first of all you you you got to adapt your your body to and your and your mind and and the space is is uh you you feel this it's uh kind of dishy when you get to Cusco uh the first day is quite uh difficult to because uh there's a lack of oxygen of course being in this uh high altitude. But uh then after two days uh you start to feel like actually like perfect uh as well and uh the energy there is fantastic is amazing so uh it it actually changed your your mood and then uh being in touch with this uh new ingredients because there is always something new to explore um uh so when we would when we do the foraging uh uh different uh herbs aromatic and vegetables uh so this this this uh such an amazing uh um um uh variety of of ingredients but yeah cooking the redients is different because it is difficult because uh you know uh the pressure that we we we we use in the coast uh at the sea level is it doesn't work in in the Andes uh the level of humidity uh is very very low so uh things work in a very different way so whatever will work uh any recipe that we prepare probably uh you are preparing or I am preparing in demand they don't work in in Cusco. Do you have to use a lot of pressure cookers or are you only adapt it to like uh things that want to be cooked at that high of an altitude no we prefer to cook with uh uh with fire like uh I mean I think the inspiration from from from the yes maybe you've seen that yeah we try to get most of the inspiration something from the doctor and the local the ones who who actually they've been doing this for years, uh thousands of years. So uh we we we try to to to adopt this this technique which in the end uh very good because uh this part of our learning process is as a school that we we have this tremendous curiosity to to understand new methods and and and new things because uh actually I'm I'm coming from the the from the old school from the you know from the uh from from a very French based uh um astronomy uh and then I I I I've done some uh cocina vanguardia espanola and I the Spanish cuisine you know the what what is what is what is called the molecular cucino so uh I I I've done this different techniques but after after you know coming to Peru uh and this past um let's say uh 15 years 20 years I've been doing this in closest with tracking uh a a change of of everything like now I'm I see I I actually feel I'm like I'm cooking um South American. Well I well we'll get into the the collection of all kind of like the actual medicinal stuff which uh is fascinating in in a minute but the pictures from from Meal are like amazing is that the prettiest restaurant view ever like ever?
It's so beautiful. Oh yeah that's the one that you yeah you see this terraces circular terraces that the the the and they were built uh since pre-In Kast time uh and uh that that was used as a as a as a as a um agricultural lab where uh people were were creating different ecosystems and different temperatures and different elevations and different um uh uh pieces of land where uh the pressures were were different. Uh so they were able to present uh different crops and uh they were able to uh uh more strength to to seeds. Uh so uh it was pretty much uh uh a useful place to to you know understand uh these uh mountains and this uh huge ecosystem which is uh which where where is Cusco and the and the Cordero Fundes. So uh we're just in front of that that place and this is the face of the of the I say the a football stadium, which is huge, and we have this in front of the restaurant.
So part of uh of being in the restaurant is that you you get you get this view, and then you also get the view of matter, which is our research and interpretation center because we gotta have an institution and and research center to to understand understand how to apply these different techniques and ingredients to our cooking. One more question about Cusco. How often does it happen that a tourist comes to Cusco, comes to the restaurant first day, first day, has a bottle of wine and falls over from the altitude. Just as like they don't understand, they can't drink that much of high altitude, and boom, they fall over. How often?
Like every day or like some days? Yeah, every two days. Yeah, I gotta say, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean it's like out of out of uh out of out of party people, I mean two people it's it's it's okay.
Uh uh we got oxygen and we we provide some, you know, some massages and whatever whatever is needed. So uh yeah, but but uh it's not that much. So go to the restaurant the second day, people. Go there, but go to the restaurant on the second day. The second day.
Uh yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so uh I also want to ask you 'cause I think a lot of people are gonna find this uh very interesting. And this actually kinda harkens back to uh Sultner a little bit, who, you know, his business partner was uh was his wife forever.
Uh what's it like like ha being married to uh the chef de cuisine, uh Chef Chef uh P. Leon, that's gotta be kind of that's gotta be hard in such like a high powered restaurant you know that being actually married and working. Yeah, I've been asked this a lot and uh before I I used to I used to uh answer that uh it was you know of course it's difficult, you need you need in a way to ne negotiate uh uh things, the kitchen and uh then uh we try different uh strategies and techniques to to you know have different spaces uh and and then understand uh where we wanna be together, cooking together. Uh so but now it's uh it's quite cool because now she has a restaurant uh next to my restaurant. So uh she's working her in her place.
But the thing is that uh she's so much into Central that she's also the heads of the ground. So uh we are still working together. But the thing isn't that now uh she's uh more like into her restaurant. And uh uh I I gotta say that it's just uh uh it's very good for us because uh uh be being a cook, uh of course you know that it demands so much of your time. And uh you lose uh you know connection with family, people, uh friends, uh parties and stuff like this.
And then you gotta be in in your kitchen. Uh when I go to Cusco, I I gotta go with some some uh plans uh about everything is sometimes everything becomes everything, uh everything is is about astronomy or food, about uh our restaurant, our ingredients. So if I have a partner that is uh I mean that is enjoying this with me, uh I mean, what else I can I can ask. Um like I'm um I feel like uh we are in a in a in a uh in a wood uh we're living a good time here together. Well that's great, because it could go either way.
Right? I mean no, that's that's awesome. Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. But but we we need we need this kind of news, you know what what she likes and what I like and where we we need the space that uh of course it's it's it's not everything is not that beautiful. I mean we we we we need sometimes to sometimes to deal with uh struggling about you know this this uh strength in the kitchen.
Uh but I think we we are uh uh at this point uh after ten years uh doing this together. I think that we know each other enough to understand you know where you know uh somebody has to has to be less uh alone kind of. That's amazing. And then what's interesting also you you partner with your sister, Malena, in the I'm gonna butcher the I gotta forgive me, I'm gonna butcher any pronunciation. Matter um uh iniquiativa.
Yes, yeah. Which is uh the uh talk about this kind of research program you guys have. Yeah, she's the one she's the one who's connecting to different disciplines. So we because we're working with different fields, uh from uh uh different different things are not not just astronomy. That's that's what amazed me is that uh I don't I don't see only only chefs and clubs and and and and and food.
So we we work with different people, anthropologists from from from historians to the world from the art and the culture. So uh so my lena, what she does is she is uh articulating all these different uh people to to create different uh programs and and uh studies. So that is giving us uh different uh views of uh you know how is gonna be our next uh menus, how's gonna be our next experiences and and what should we do? What should we be doing in the next uh few years uh from now? So um it's about uh this mobility is of course cataloging every sing every single thing that we find.
Uh of course uh matter as a uh research and uh interpretation center is is is providing this knowledge and ideas uh coming from different fields and uh from science and art and and you know the innovation is is is is very good and the creativity, the level of creativity that we can achieve in the kitchen sometimes is uh is beyond what we ex we were expecting. So originally you guys were cataloging like uh local and indigenous products from Peru, and I think one of the interesting things you said on your uh on the website there is that you you know you could live in Lima your whole life and you go up the mountain and all of a sudden you're a foreigner. That's how different the the ingredients are. But then you decided at some point to shift to not just Peru but to the range of products kind of all throughout the Andes and that kind of led to the the book that you just came out with which we're gonna I guess we should start talking about before we run out of time, right? Yeah well well but um you know what happened is that uh we started as uh as something very very small uh with Marlena like uh we started going we were going to the Andes to the mountains of Peru where we had to move like just like maybe a few hours from Lima from the coast.
We are just next to the sea. And then uh we started to go to the Amazon. So what happened what happens in Peru is that everything is quite close for being such a diverse uh for being in in in a way the land of uh biodiversity like let's put it in this way. So uh uh we were doing this and um little by little uh after maybe about six years we've been creating more and more uh programs and more more people have have been have becoming to to our ideas and our projects. So what what is happening now is that uh uh we wanna know more about what's going on in Latino America about uh because there's one thing that uh if we are through where we are close to the Amazon and and the Cordillero Los Andes and the and the Celtic areas and the coast and the sea uh we kind of see the same things happening in South America and Latin America.
So uh and the the the whole process of explore as being something that uh for us is something that we need. So nowadays that we wanna know more about it in America, uh we've got to go to these places. Uh so we wanna what I see beyond the the borders of Peru, which is it has been uh very good for for our our team. And then we came up with this this book of course where we were doing something quite expensive from from scratch because we are doing uh some of the cataloging some of the recipes that we we we decided that it would they were the they were one of the most uh emblematic or probably one of the most um uh I don't know the one authority we need to preserve in Bank but so the name of the book by the way is the for those of you who are uh I haven't I should have told you guys right away what the name of the book is I apologize it's uh the Latin American cookbook uh but it's not I mean it's not even just like a cookbook it's like uh it's an encyclopedia it's a it's interesting it harkens back to an an older style of book and you're doing all the way from like the very the very southern tip of South America all the way up to the Rio Grande all the way up to like you know Juarez all the way up to like the Rio Grande. So it's like uh and all the way over to the to the Caribbean right so it's I mean it's an incredibly physically large but also incredibly diverse region.
So you know f uh like I you know I I read what Fiden put out because it's one of Fiden things and they were like, well, this is the second in the series. We have, you know, we had um uh a book on the the cuisine of the north, like Scandinavia. It's like Scandinavia is like four countries with like two different kinds of people in it. No offense, Scandinavia. No offense.
You know what I mean? But it's like maybe three kinds of people in Scandinavia. Whereas like, you know, Latin America is like you can't even comprehend it. You know what I mean? And yet you still in the book you say that there is enough of a commonality that you feel like you can draw it all together into one book.
You want to talk about that? Yeah. Um there was one thing that uh we as uh coming from Latin America probably some people think that we are the same we are not. Uh uh people from Peru is very different to people uh from Mexico and Brazil and Argentina and Chile and Ecuador and Bolivia. So um uh and then uh still like people in my country uh we are so different.
I mean, I'm I'm from the coast, and then you find people from the from the mountains. You mentioned that people from the Andes that's very different to what we believe. Uh the way we see the world, our minds, uh the way we see the the world is different. And then the people in the Amazon is so different. So uh same is is happening in in Latin America.
Uh so uh but um if you if you compare with uh this uh Bible, I don't know how to call this uh we decided to do a a cookbook recipe, but then we started to see like you know, every single recipe has a has a beautiful story, and uh that uh we needed to to to share. Uh uh I I uh I mean the book could be like huge and and it it could it could take us uh uh uh maybe like uh more uh more years to finish. But I think uh uh we did uh we did a quite uh uh uh uh a great job uh just uh I mean like yeah you mentioned uh the Northern book is about I don't know four four different countries in this case we're we did twenty two we cover 22 uh countries and um we have a thousand recipes and then we we we we put it down to 600 recipes and about almost 200 photos of recipes which is is it is a lot uh but we need to do this way because uh um uh the level of complexity uh in the America is is huge as I was saying we we are not the same and every single uh uh country has uh has a different stories and and and different different things with different traditions. Uh you know the massive bots that happened in in in many countries are are just amazing uh uh you know Peru I think is is uh it's a is a very hot spot on on this because uh we've been uh we've been uh we are the result of of probably uh uh you know Japanese Chinese uh Spanish uh Portuguese Italian uh our inka legacy so same is happening in all these different countries uh so we're trying to put a bit of of this and uh and then uh you know with all these our differences with all our differences we want to do something that probably uh we could say like uh okay this is Latin America. Yeah, and you focus mainly on food that kind of either people cook or people eat in a kind of a normal, sometimes festive as well, but not like uh not necessarily like fine dining.
This is like food that like just people would eat, right? Sure. That's that was uh something important. Uh when when we decided to book uh uh had uh about 15 guys, 17 guys in the in the kitchen, and in the kitchen in in in the restaurant, in both restaurants and also in matter in the research area, where people were coming from different uh nationalities uh from from mostly from South America. So having like a 17 people, uh so they had different contacts.
So we we got in touch with different people from different different countries, uh food writers, journalists, anthropologists, historians. So we're able to understand, you know, a little bit of every uh every country, and and sadly we uh I know many chefs from from from a lot of colleagues that they were helping me to do this, and and uh this is the work of matter as a research area with all uh uh most of uh most of our friends' colleagues that they were contributing with with recipes. Uh then another food writer was helping us and Nicolas Chile, uh uh so he was he's he's a traveler, he's a journalist, and he's he was uh uh picking uh places and recipes and helping us to to, you know, uh combine everything into one thing coming from the America. Right, because it it's interesting, like uh, you know, you say that, you know, as you as you just said, that you you know, you're trying to first taste the dish or talk to someone like have it made by the hands who know what it's supposed to taste like or with the ingredients it's that it's supposed to taste like sometimes you even go to the places where they're made to have them in like the original locale but then you're in in one way adapting them by making them in your kitchen trying to make a recipe that's adaptable but on the other hand you're also telling people like real ingredients. So here's a book I can buy in America that has a recipe for Rhea eggs.
And for those of you that don't know Rhea is like a is like a small ostrich like bird from South America and we can't get the eggs here. You know what I mean? So it's a it's a very interesting um it's a very interesting combination of adapted but also not adapted right so it's like it's it's a very it's an interesting line to to kind of dance down. What do you think? Sure I uh that's what I call in the in the in the rules uh you know improvisation is what uh don't be a stress but something stressful about uh doing the recipe you know a hundred percent if you if you don't find ingredients uh just get into the creative process and and uh and uh do whatever you think is good and uh don't follow the recipe it doesn't mean that the recipes don't work I mean they recipe actually they do work and uh we'll destroy the recipes that you were saying like uh when we would do the recipes even when we're taking the photo we were imagining that we were this uh magic a beach in Cartagena or that we were in Venezuela uh you know in this kind of mountains or we're seeing you know nowadays like of course uh different books uh you two uh contact uh very helpful I thought uh uh I I think that uh making a book like this uh maybe ten years ago would be like very very very different but uh but uh nowadays um uh having this sense of place is very important and uh because of many people working with us uh uh having all these people uh helping us uh has been uh has been uh wonderful uh but yeah yeah I think uh uh having uh one of the biggest uh challenges was uh like having one piece of uh you know keeping Latin America and one book which is challenging if difficult.
Yeah I noticed you uh you left out uh Capibera one of my favorite meats from South America. You just don't I guess you don't like uh you know what do they call Capibera in Peru do they eat it there the the Chiquiro from Colombia? Oh yeah I would have that one because we uh we uh we focus on the camelinos, the Camel, South Morton Camel. Yeah yeah yeah. Uh we did a little bit of the Guinea peace.
Uh you know we have rabbits, we have Edison and uh of course uh those are the the native uh uh meats and and and then uh we were then uh you know the the the pork the the beef uh uh they came they came with uh with the Spanish and since then uh you know uh you know how much uh Brazil how much is is is producing meat and and and Argentina and Uruguay and Paraguay. So uh yeah, those are things that it's not about like uh doing uh everything like an our our native team. Uh uh we we did like 50 fifty like also some of of the things that we've been doing in the past uh past hundred years of of natural fusion. So I don't want to run out of time because we have some questions uh from our uh listeners for you. And actually uh this person uh stodged with you um in uh Bogota at uh Astrid Gaston.
This is uh Nicholas, if he's from Ecuador, he didn't give me his last name. Uh but he said he starged with you at uh Astrid Ego uh Igueston. Uh and so why do you think why do you think besides Mexico and Brazil, it has taken all uh other uh taken other Latin American countries such a long time to be recognized for their traditional cuisines, even though we all share similar products, ingredients and flavors. I think it's quite I I don't know if it's quite simple because uh I think Mexico and Brazil they they play a good role in the world scene uh because many other things, I don't know, because of uh what you call uh soccer, football, uh art uh uh different uh different participations in the world, uh I don't know, in economy, in in fashion, whatever is uh is uh in different trends. So uh the gastronomy were you know exposed before uh some other countries.
Um but this is moving very quickly. Now people is looking into something different, and uh I think it's always gonna be the time for for countries to uh post Ecuador and name a few, like some other countries. Well, Chef, let me ask you this to kind of piggyback on uh Nicholas's question. Um it seems like maybe the past 20, twenty-five years in South America, more people are getting in. There's a kind of two things, like people who kind of are like edge like more educated than maybe maybe 50 years ago or getting into food than you know nowadays, like people who are, you know, kind of uh like have a lot of education, which at the same time people are also all of a sudden interested in more local ingredients and it's caused kind of this explosion.
Do you think that's true or not? That's kind of what I noticed in Colombia and you know, from what I've read from other other places. Do you think that's true? Well, yeah, I I think I witnessed this because I I've never seen so many little coming to Peru just uh and asking going to to market or just going to Cusco and and probably don't don't don't uh looking uh people just not looking for for the normal stuff like uh, you know, going to the Incas and ruins uh archaeological sites, they want to go to market, they want to go to food in different uh in the market, uh they w they want to go to to see the street food vendors. So I think of course there's this uh uh uh an explosion.
I think it's it's something because um I don't know it's like uh uh the world the world's class uh changed into now people is more concerned about what what they're eating and and um what they are consuming, and I think nowadays the the reaching of of food is important. How how much credit i within South America do people give to uh Alex uh Atala? Because I remember years ago he came up to do a demonstration uh at uh in New York at Starchef's, and I was like, no one here had heard of like any of the ingredients that he had had dealt with, and this was before you know Noma was famous for these like low hyperlocal ingredients and I think he just kind of blew all of our heads off. We were just like what the hell is happening? Everyone wanted to go I've never been because I've again I've never been South Columbia.
But do people in South America still kind of give him credit because I feel like worldwide he helped kind of kick off an important movement. No? Well he he was one of the of the of the big names to to start this uh uh with pride of of of these at Megan Cucina worldwide uh yeah I I remember when he started to travel I I was still studying or was just I think uh maybe I was doing stages somewhere uh I remember he was uh he was coming with uh Amazonian ingredients uh and yeah of course ingredients are probably you uh you've uh never see before and uh yes he was uh he was uh working with ants little ants and and different aromatics and of course uh and again he was he was he's uh he came from from from from the classic French food and then of course he when he when he came back to when he went back to to Brazil he switched to to work with with uh local and makes Amazonian products and and that was quite interesting and the same happened here with Art Acurio in Peru where he uh started he he he was he was a chef in France and and he he came to Peru and he started to to discover uh not discussion, we discovered our traditions and and and made them more visible to the world. And uh on these local ingredients, here's something I think that a lot of people, I know like our listeners is here might be interested in. There's a it's not a problem.
Maybe it's a problem. There's a fine line, right? Between you you you bring these like very local ingredients to light that and in one way almost like save them from extinction because some of these places are getting wiped out, right? But on the other hand, if they get too popular, it's also a problem, right? Because then like they so how do you ride that line where it's like celebrating, like helping to survive without at the same time destroying by making it too popular?
It's very hard, right? Sure, that's why you you gotta you gotta have a team and that's why it's not about like just uh crazy cooks, uh discovering new ingredients and showing ingredients and impressing people, right? Uh we we need to to work on conservation or preservation of species, and and then we need to understand you know part of our traditions and and why why uh if we're working on innovation, we are working on uh and showing these ingredients and probably making them uh visible to the world and probably create new markets. We wanna wanna make sure, wanna ask, we wanna make sure when I study if that will help any community in our in very far areas. So uh we were learning from mistakes.
It happened with quinoa, it happened with mata, boots, it happened with different ingredients, but uh uh you know uh they were uh they were, you know, they became trendy and uh the producers they were not changing anything about uh that uh trend. So now we we are we are uh uh I think we are all empowered to to to create this atmosphere where uh you know uh fair trade things are coming to to our places and and we understand that if we do something that it's gonna create a quite like a a small trend or whatever uh a different different habit in in in our cuisine uh it has to it has to be very well studied before yeah uh opt one C writes in what are the best United States domestic chili pepper substitutes for Peruvian chili peppers I guess especially the the ajamarillo right if you could only grow three Peruvian chili peppers what would they be and what are the best practices for using frozen fish in Ceviche or should freshness be paramount that was from one of our listeners. Okay so about the chilies I mean you you you you got you got this uh not a fresh one but you had the dehydrated uh uh Mexican uh chili peps which are amazing smoky uh chili peppers um you got lots of of uh different chilies um uh from from from Mexico which is quite good. Uh if I have to choose one one to to grow in in in in the space which uh which I know it's uh you can find it you can find it there is the Aja Marillo the general chili pepper and there's another one called uh which is very popular here is called rocotto rocotto rocotto is like a looks like a real belt cutter uh it it is quite five few it is uh and then um about uh the the fish, right uh you mentioned about yeah they want to they want to know using frozen fish in Ceviche. Okay.
I think I you know I'm I'm not against I'm not against uh uh uh frozen fish uh it's just it just depends on on on how how you freeze the fish and how you how you how you uh serve the fish at the role after this so uh when when you are frozen the fish I mean how how what they need to use and uh you know you have to be covered you have to be you you you you get the the frozen fish uh fish in the fridge of a knife that's not a bad idea but uh you know the problem is when you work with frozen stuff that has been frozen many times and you have no control you have no traceability you have no no information about ingredients and sadly we know this up because of the price you know because if you know that you're buying uh frozen fish which is uh in the best example is the tuna tuna fish most most of the tuna fish I work with tuna is coming is coming uh frozen and uh the frozen uh in marketing in in in Japan and Korea China even in Peru Mexico so uh well the the thing is just like uh how what can you use to to to work with this frozen fish so and don't don't don't freeze the fish again that's that's that's something very particular. So Pablo writes in with another ceviche question, and while we're at it, uh like I know you mentioned uh in the book like the history of ceviche, you might want to go like a short thing on the kind of history of how Civice, you were you were talking about like maybe what it was like prior to you know when citrus fruits were available, if you want to talk about that. But what Pablo wants to know is does the lemon juice do something besides giving flavor in ceviche because it's usually used as an example of cooking with acidity, but they don't seem to be long uh together long enough to actually cook. When when I make it they they turn color. I mean they turn anyway.
But go ahead go ahead, Chef. What what do you think? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a good one, Pablo, because uh you know in a way like uh you you are you're not cooking the fish, it's uh it's something that happens, you know, once once uh we we we we in space we say like uh you you kind of attack uh the the fish with the with the lime. Well when the lime juice goes to the the fish, the fish turns uh white.
So that's why it looks uh of course uh cooked uh like uh by so it's uh uh the question is like uh w what do we call it uh cook what what does it mean it's cooking, you know, if it's uh unique eat or not. But uh if we were okay, let's pretend we're cooking the fish with uh with uh with the lemon juice, of course it would in a way like cue the fish, and the fish in in seconds it it changed the texture. So uh um we are at the acidity, of course. Uh we are uh cooking the fish, but also what change we're changing the texture of the fish. It becomes uh uh you know, like uh filmer.
Um it it becomes uh uh a whiter, and uh the thing is that uh because of like of of our Japanese influence, uh in the past uh thirty uh 20 years, we've been uh fasting the the fish uh we are we're adding the lime juice for just a few seconds before serving so we don't keep the the the the the lime juice you know uh we don't keep the fish absorbing this lime juice because otherwise you you obtain this uh very firm uh fish and uh in a way kind of you are not respecting the freshness of the fish so the one of the most uh beautiful things just to to get a fresh fish uh in seconds and uh use also uh uh cold uh fish add some salt before the lime juice uh to protect the meat and then add the lime juice and then serve it straight away which which in this case is the the lime juice uh we instead of using the lime juice we we prepare something which is in the recipe of the book which is called leche the tigre you are what makes the tigre which is the tiger's milk which is the the juice that we obtain uh when we're having civiche. I have I have to ask you this before okay John here will kill me if I don't you somehow smuggled piranha vacuum packed piranha. First of all first of all what is a piranha taste like what do they taste like uh it tastes uh uh you you are a you are a try Amazonian fish it it tastes so uh so Amazonian I I think uh this is the best some example of of of of the the texture is c is quite like a like a taste because uh uh it it it tastes like uh you know like uh like uh having this uh meat with crystals, you know, like a crunchy meat and uh it it provides a lot of flavor. And uh the thing is that the piranha meat is is very thin, so uh you gotta be very careful whenever you you you you do depone the piranha to get it. And uh uh yeah, what happened to me is that I brought this piranha for them.
They were like uh they were already already cooked and uh dehydrated, so uh they were not uh fresh fresh piranhas, so it was a big scandal for some people when they were they're all right, they're dehydrated. Yeah, okay that makes a little more sense. Yeah, they were dehydrated. Let me tell you something. Like this is LAX people.
So he's like he flies into LAX. And I don't know if any of you guys have dealt with US customs before, but it they're not exactly. I mean, nothing against them. They're not the friendliest bunch on earth. I can't imagine them looking at a package of vacuum-packed piranha and being like, okay.
Okay. And you just what it's a how the hell did you talk through that? Did you I mean you don't have to say this, but did you bribe them? You can't bribe you as customers of fish. Uh most of the time when I travel, uh uh we travel to cook.
And uh you mentioned uh Alex Hazard, like he went to to to I think it was in this in New York, right? Uh where he did uh chef's uh this presentation. So most of the time we we bring ingredients to to our cooking uh demonstrations. So in in my my case, I brought it with uh dehydrated uranium. The thing is that uh I mean most of the time we bring uh dehydrated fish, any kind of fish.
You can't bring uh uh even like uh a cure uh tivak, uh like uh or let's say like uh if somebody asks you what you have it there and you say like, okay, I'm having like a cure salmon. I'm having like smoked uh salmon, smoked uh cooperation small sea bugs. But you know, uh I I think I committed mistake because uh I I I I was poor asked when I say, okay, well what they ask they asked, uh what is that? I say I think Piranias, like uh dehydrated Prani. Yeah.
And they were like, what? And that was uh uh quite uh yeah, it's it took me it took me two hours too to to land uh well. Yeah, yeah, well I can't believe you got that through. You know the old trick people do with cheeses, because in the US you can't bring raw milk cheese younger than 60 days. So the people who lie just say it's uh it's older than sixty days, and then they're like, Okay.
They don't know. Customs doesn't really. Yeah. Cause c a customs person can't necessarily tell the difference between a salmon and a piranha, strangely. Uh but once they know it's a piranha chef, uh they're not too happy about it.
Uh uh, since I have you on the phone. No, no, no. No, no, no, they were they were they were very intrigued and so some of them were laughing at me. And uh anyway, uh uh but I uh I explained uh very mixed up uh you know Australia, uh when you go to the airport uh with food they they go really, really it was uh scary because uh they are they're protecting their land, uh oh yeah. And they're so willing to to take off all their food.
So uh yeah, where are we careful? I mean Australia, yeah, I mean they've been they've been hurt so many times. Honestly, uh honestly, that was the first and the last time I bring Piranias to the A US. That's it. Yeah.
So something Peruvian that I only tried to make once and it was so terrible that I need to know how to properly make it. Okay. The when I take when I made it, it tasted like I was sucking on uh on the bedding from a from a goat. It tasted like a like a barn. The chunio.
I now I know there's a white chunyo and a black chunyo. I bought the white one. I don't know the difference in flavor between the white one and the black one. And that's different from the the uh papa secus, the dried potatoes that you use in the dehydrated potato stew, right? Can you tell me the difference in flavor between those three ingredients and how to not make it taste terrible?
Yeah, yeah, the taste is when they like what uh the personal fermentation and and then uh the thing is that uh most of these uh this these are potatoes that they're fish rice and uh they they put uh sometimes in in uh soak in water from the rivers. And it is it's something very uh natural what what they do with you know people in the month they've been doing this for years. And uh so it's is this uh uh um I've got the unique of uh utilization, utilization uh where where you fish try things. But uh they were doing this uh thousands of years ago. So in this case with this this kind of potatoes, what they do is they they they ferment potatoes uh well for for long long time.
So uh the smell of of the of the of the uh uh sugas are uh quite uh yeah, cheesy and and uh funny funky. So uh yeah, and the and the black ones um you know and the ones that are not peeled so the black the the the black the black in the is the skin the white are peeled because uh the to do you preserve the the white and the and the uh the river and then the w uh the yeah the the water coming from the river so the river is peeling the the the the potatoes and uh they are they have you know what we do is uh they they smell yeah they smell a lot uh what what we do it in the kitchen uh because we we we don't use any any any any any texture or any any any any flower that we don't know who is coming from because here you you got like uh you know we I should the quinoa and I'd grains and different cigarettes so we're getting legumes so we're getting the the um the the kind of the flower coming from these legumes and uh uh the starch so you got the tapioca the yucca the cassava so we're using we're trying to use we're trying to use every single starch coming from this uh vegetable roots or different vegetables or or or legumes or even from the coca leaf uh we're using starch so what what is happening is that uh uh uh with uh the the potato what we do is uh whenever we when uh thicken some sauces we graze it and we obtain this powder of of of of potato so we use this uh thickener and it it thickens the sauces uh very nice uh and it provides a very beautiful texture. Alright, but is the black different to flower. Is the black one more mild? Should I try the black one?
Yeah, yeah, it's my best. Okay, I'll try the black one. I'll try the black one. I gotta do it again. And never once, Chef it's I always have to do something at least three times.
And this is why I need to come to Peru. I need to have it like I'm supposed to have it first, so I know what it's supposed to taste like. Otherwise, how do I know if I'm wrong? You know? How do I know?
I will never know unless I go. Sure. So uh so means go I want to like just go through some of the like recipes in here. For instance, you talk about this fish, uh tambaki, which is also the paku. You said it tastes like pork, this Amazonian fish tastes like pork.
Oh yeah, they smoke pork. Yeah, right? Yeah. Yeah. But it appears that it's beautiful that features because when you see this fish going to the surface uh to eat uh fruit, it's just a beautiful scene.
So we do a it this year is a drawer where uh what we did within the restaurant is uh an interpretation of what we see in nature. So if we go to the Amazon and we see the fish uh just waiting for uh let's see tomatoes or different uh fruit, like mangoes uh coming down from the tree. You see the fish going to the surface uh for the food. So we do uh we do it uh uh a serving on this menu that uh the fish uh with the fruit that the fish is consuming. So you see this uh fish that tastes like uh a big it has deep picture of pork because it's more about the texture and with with um with fruit.
Yeah, I mean, look, this book, I like uh we're we're running out of time. The Latin American cookbook by uh Virgilio Martinez, it has got like I'll just go through some of the stuff real really quickly. Uh when I read the read the book, I thought what's interesting is is that I would just I would see something, and then I would have to go down an internet rabbit hole to look at it. Just like the cassava recipes alone, like the cassava liquid. I mean the the bread b so the bread baby, this like baby shaped bread from the Andes.
Is that taste good or is it more the way it looks, Chef? Well, I gotta taste more than look uh it tastes like uh yeah, it's it the breadfish look it's uh good. It's it's just that uh the the be the all these colors that they do uh it's it's so just an hour that uh it it looks uh you know, some basic, you know, things gotta look uh beautiful to be more uh I know uh same same way all the other preparations, folks. Yeah, people people walking around with uh bread shaped like babies with babies' faces on it. I mean, I kind of appreciate that.
We need to do that in this country. Imagine if everyone walked around in baby here, Chef, in the US now, people go with baby strollers. There's not even babies in there's tiny dogs in them. Instead they should have little bread-shaped, I mean uh baby shaped breads. But like even like the bread section alone of this book, there's like uh there's like a potato bread made with mashed potatoes and grated potatoes.
It's cooked on a stick and then spl over a fire, then split open and sprinkle with chicharron. You have uh this is an addition, you know, to all of the the kind of classic, obviously, you're gonna have the good Peruvian stuff in because it you know that's there. Uh but like uh banana flour recipes, like things that you wouldn't expect, like uh Chilean steak and green bean sandwiches. Does that taste good, shredded green beans on a steak sandwich? Sounds good.
Sounds good. Yeah, it sounds good. It's just it's just a it's something about like being up with mine and uh be being willing ready to try something something different. Uh uh there's some so probably so be starved for you, uh, because you've probably never seen this before. Uh you know, uh the way uh uh we serve uh avocado in Cervice in in soap, it's quite uh weird, you know.
Um I I keep seeing weird stuff uh going on in the Amazon and but uh in in in Brazil for instance. But I don't know I'm not that familiar with Brazilian food, but they are so many uh different regions and so many uh uses of of ingredients. When you when you mentioned the bread, uh you know uh we uh we didn't we didn't get uh wheat here uh it's uh the Spanish came. So we used to uh uh make uh this kind of dough and uh bread uh with uh different flowers coming from cataras, mojado, uh vegetable roots, legumes, uh different leaves, uh different aromatics. So we used to have more more of of flat bread like uh like tortilla kind of.
Oh yeah, the corn the corn and potato sections, I mean obviously corn and potatoes, please. Yeah, they uh but yeah, but the bread section is interesting because it's about this kind of conjunction of wheat, but then you have all these interesting wheat recipes, like you boil wheat f uh till it's soft, you mash it and then you cook it into uh into a cake that's served as uh I forget which one, what the name of that was. But I'll leave you a couple more because what John's telling me I'm I'm super late. Chilean hot dogs, John, this is what I was gonna say. Chilean hot dogs with the color of the Italian flag on it, where the green is green is m mashed avocado.
Oh, that sounds great. Avocado, mayonnaise, and like a tomato, like a concasse chef, or more like a ketchup. That's that's a ketchup. Uh yeah, it looks like uh the calian flax. If you if it's funny, yeah.
Uh but they're very well consumed in Chile. Well uh uh we don't see this in Peru. Uh we don't see this anywhere. I mean, just in Chile. And uh I I mean what when I got this in Chile, they they love sandwiches.
Like there's some there's some things that you you you keep seeing in different uh countries. Like in Chile, you see you see uh uh sandwiches, you see panadas, you see uh tamales, and those uh sandwiches and bananas and and tamales, uh you keep seeing in different countries, you see different ingredients. So that's something really, really interesting about the magazine that uh you keep repeating the same preparations, but with different ingredients. So you see the tamales with corn, combined with uh batabas, tamales with potatoes, combined with uh uh different uh vegetables, the legumes, and and different feelings. Same with the banana, uh different fittings and and uh sandwiches, yeah, of course.
Cicherron and avocados and and uh all kinds of stuff are added. But by the way, which avocados do you usually use in Peru, the fatty ones or the not fatty ones? The fatty ones. The fatty ones, yeah. Yeah, small ones.
Yeah. The uh okay, one last John's really getting mad at me here. So is Hassan. Uh like, but there's uh all kinds of random like stuff that you don't think about. Like if Paraguay, they they make these these ribs.
John, you're gonna like this. Ready this? Ready for it? All right. Pork ribs, and then after it's cooked, you take toasted corn flour and dust it.
So it looks like a dry, dusty corn powder. And now I'm like, what the hell does that taste like? I want to see what that tastes like. Yeah, that sounds really delicious. Yeah.
Yeah. We should do it. Yeah, we should do that. But are the are they are the ribs cooked soft or are they cook still like chewy? Yeah.
I'm definitely gonna try that. Yeah, we said we we we cook for a long period of time and they get uh very soft. And then we try to make them crispy. Um this is something that we we quite uh keep repeating in in deep friend regions where to uh quite again, not not overcooked, but you cook for for uh low temperature, uh a any kind of meat or any preparation, and then you you you you he you you warm up uh in uh whatever in uh nocy pan or with fire. Well, Chef, thank you so much.
I can't wait. Someday I will someday I will get to go to Peru. The book is the Latin American Cookbook by Virgilio Martinez. Uh I'm sorry to the Patreon people who wrote in other questions that weren't for Chef. I didn't get a chance to them.
Although Balloon Knot asked, how do you prevent whole crabs from turning black when they're chilled and stored? The answer is you've undercooked them, you haven't fully denatured the hemocyanin, which can then turn uh bluish or black after it's been stored. The rest of it, I'll get to the uh what John? Yeah, oh John wants to say something too. Uh for all you listeners out there, we are doing a special secret perk for Patreon.
You get five dollars off of Sears All Pro, but even better than that, you get a five to ten minute video of Dave talking about pies and making a pie, and you'll get an annotated recipe to go with that too. So just go to Booker and Dax.com and you will find the link right there as a pop-up. Thank you. When am I when do I have to have that done by, by the way, John? We got some time.
All right, because you know I'm going deep on Paul. Also, uh deep on pie in my pie hole. And Mr. Paul asked me about livery flavors in sous vide duck. Cook it lower, don't cook it as long.
I'll deal with it more in depth, but in case you have to cook a duck like soon, after it's cooked through, it's like 45 minutes on a or less, less even 30 minutes on a breast, drop the temperature and it will stop it from going to livery on the breast. But I'll deal with it more in depth later. Again, thank you, Chef, for coming on. Cooking issues.
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