Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues, coming to you alive from New Stand Studios, the Rockefeller Center in the heart of New York City. Joined as usual with Nastasia De Hammer Lopez, but she's uh joining it from an undisclosed location. How you doing, Stas? I'm good, how are you?
Doing well. Doing well. Hey. Uh well, we have we have we can ask finally later in the show the question about whether we were completely in the wrong when we went to that place in Tokyo. Remind me.
Because we gotta we gotta ask whether we were completely just being the worst cultural ambassadors of all time or not. You know what I'm talking about? Yes, yeah. All right, so remind me, remind me. Uh joined in the studio with uh John, how you doing?
Doing great things? Yeah, everything. What do we have? So we don't forget, because I always forget, what do we have to announce today? Oh, we've got so many awesome things to announce.
Why don't we take care of the announcements? Yes, great. So up through Friday through Kitchen Arts and Letters, you can get 20% off the Japanese art of the cocktail. Um I also posted on Patreon and in the Discord today about the Oricing Salmon discount as well as the Grove and Vine discount. So if you are not a member of the Patreon, what are you waiting for?
Because in addition to all this great content, you're getting uh these exclusive offers with some of our partners, and it's really great. Then upcoming guests, we've got James Hoffman, uh Matt from Kitchen Arts and Letters, Adam Di Martino, Kenji Lopez Alt. And next week we don't have any guests, so we will get to uh the backlog of questions that we have. Right. So anyone that any Patreon question we haven't answered, although John, you should call and see if any are uh what's what's the word I'm looking for?
Time sensitive. Yep. See if there's any or time sensitive, like someone has a wedding or something like this. Also, Patreon, like reach out to us if you if you if you really need something right away. I guess you don't have to wait for the show, right, John?
But then I won't talk about it on the show if I tell you right away. Is that true, John? It's true. It's true. And joined as usual by the dueling banjo of engineers, Joe Hazen here in our New York booth.
How you doing, Joe? Hey, how you doing, Dave? I'm doing well. You sound mellow today. That's uh that's kind of like uh is that like fake new dad mellow or actual mellow?
It's actual mellow. Things are good at home. That's great. That's so awesome. Yeah.
Uh and of course, uh Jackie Molecules Jack Insley in I'm assuming LA. I don't. Yes. All right. What's up?
I'm here in LA. Man of the world, Jackie Molecules. Hmm. All right. But today we have uh we were we were gonna have him on earlier, right?
So it's it's not that we had to wait a full year after the book came out. We we we had a little bit of a scheduling uh snafu, but we have uh today on the show uh Masahira Urushido, uh, who I've only ever spoken uh as Massa. I've never ever used his full name. In fact, for years I didn't know he had a full name. He's just masa in the way that Madonna, I mean, who knows Madonna's last name?
You know what I'm saying? In the in the bar world, masa is masa and there is no other masa. You know what I mean? In the bar world you think it's act? Am I accurate here?
We also have uh a guy I've known actually for how many, like 12, 13 years? At least. Yeah. Michael Anstendig. So they wrote a uh now, so a lot of people don't know this, but uh Hannah Lee and Michael Anstandig are this like kind of like power food power couple in New York.
And uh Hannah Lee runs Hanelee Hannah Lee Communications is the name of the company, right? That's right. Yeah. And they uh you might have heard of a bar called uh The Dead Rabbit. Maybe you've heard of it.
I don't know. If you've been to a bar in New York, you've heard of the Dead Rabbit. Anyway, so she uh, you know, she helped make the them like one of the biggest bars. She works with uh Massa at Katana Kitten, his amazing bar here in New York, uh, which we'll get into. But here's what I'm gonna tell you about uh Hannah and Michael.
They were very early on the very first board of the Museum of Food and Drink, even I think before it was even officially called the Museum of Food and Drink. So very uh longtime friends, known them a long time. How are you doing, Michael? Doing really good and uh delighted to be here. Yeah.
And Masa, how you doing? Amazing. Yeah, amazing. Thank you. So came out with this book.
The now do you pronounce it the art of the Japanese? You don't pronounce it the way it's written on the book. You don't say Japanese art of the cocktail, you say art of the Japanese cocktail, right? Which one do you do? The Japanese art of the cocktail.
Jap the Japanese art of the cocktail. So not so it's not it's the Japanese way to make a cocktail, whether it's Japanese or not. But not the art of only Japanese cocktail. So it's very important that the art go in the right spot. Exactly.
All right. So uh we got a lot to we got a lot to get through today uh on on this. Uh and John, we had a couple of questions coming. You wanna you want to hit you wanna hit them up with the questions early? Yeah, why not?
Let's do it. Do that before we get into the, you know. Great. All right. Okay.
So this is from Warren Johnston. I believe Katana Kitten has one of the Suntery Highball machines for pre chilling and carbonating whiskey. High balls for on tap service. Have you ever done a side by side comparison with a three times force carbonation technique in Dave's liquid intelligence? And aside from the quicker service, are there any distinct advantages for the Suntery machine?
All right. Well, go for it, Masa. That's an amazing question. Yeah, and we're gonna get a lot after this on on high balls too. So say what you want about the question, and then we'll get into it.
I love it. Well, but the first of all, thank you for having us. Oh and that was very sweet introduction, Dave. And then you are so natural. And then I'm just like so amazed by this, how do you call it?
Like MSing? Oh my gosh. We've been doing it for like how many years we've been doing this for? Just so natural. And you're not reading it.
No, no, no, no. No, it just comes from your mind. That's amazing. But the trick is, uh, people this is funny. No one's ever asked me about how we do this, but the trick is is that like I have the questions here, and then usually I just have like a couple of notes.
Yeah. But uh most of the time I get into such like questions that I I even forget to go to the notes sometimes, you know, but usually it's just for the questions. So fast. Well, this is the problem with my head. This is why I go in tangents all the time.
I mean, you know me from the bar. This is why they never let me behind the stick at the bar because I'm just all over the place, you know? Super cool. Yeah, yeah. So okay, token.
Tokyo machine. The machine, yes. Uh machine is super cool. Uh, and then this uh financially it's very affordable. So it's kind of like a win-win, and then that's kind of win to that brand, the Santoris that they created this absolutely amazing machine.
So you asking about the comparison. So yes, I guess we did. So that we bought the um um uh Schweps that the soda water cross the street from Ride Aid, and it came back and very well chilled. I spit it out a little bit to give it room, and then they put the carbonator, just like you know, the I learned how to carbonate things from uh from Dave. So back in the days that like the uh everyone was using the s uh soda stream.
I should not say this. You can you can say whatever you want. Yeah, okay, okay. So that that was like like, you know, then the for the bar in in the very early time, like everyone used it. It was like this is good, but it's almost like almost like a home cooking use, you know.
It's not professional. And then I learned that false carbon. Oh, you you remember that was from uh Shiva's competition. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which you won.
You won the Shivas competition. Yeah, yeah. The carbonated uh we were weird, nomad. Nomad, and then you show everyone how to uh uh the force. Right with the bottles, yeah, yeah.
Yep. And then the the what's it called at the with the carbonator cap, the uh liquid red carbonate. Uh that was an amazing experience. And then it seems like we started using it. Uh anyway, uh uh go back to the answer to the question.
So um we tried so that again the false carbonated the a store bought uh soda water a couple of times. At some point, like you can't really add much. You know, you know that the you're not making the size of the bubble smaller. That's how I felt. Right.
You know, the the tasting comparison. But the it's it's all about comes down to consistency in how rational that you'll practice basically to you serving hundreds of hajjes for high ball every night. So um to answer to the question that the difference, yes, but you know, I prefer that the machine carbonation. Right. Well the other thing is I think you know, from my perspective, like taking on the kind of carbonation that we did is there look, there's a reason that we were there's a reason at both bars that I, you know, had that we were like I think very good at certain things and then other things we just didn't even attempt to do because there's just a lot there's a lot to maintain that kind of carbonation program, you have to devote a lot of your energy to that carbonation program, which means uh you know y you want to think when you're young that you have uh i i an infinite amount of energy.
The uh they don't you don't. You don't. You have to focus on some things. And the Toki machine, I actually believe it's a good machine. I think it's a good machine.
Um I think it's also uh it's maybe like a slightly different result. What's what's interesting to me from reading the book that I didn't know, I didn't know you could adjust the mixture ratio on a Tokyo machine. Oh yeah, you can do one to one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh one-to-one, you can do, you know.
Because the traditional Toki highball uh Japanese style is a is a four to one, right? A three is it three and a half or four to one? It's uh you know what? That the so I don't know exactly ratio because of the you know when I was young, I didn't, you know, really care that what's in it, or like you know, the the pay attention to those details. So I remember that the enjoying those uh the Japanese highball when when I was you know going out.
I tasted it very thin. I mean, like that's also kind of is a kaya or like a little nicer uh bar. The the way they make it, the as you go to the nicer bar, I tasted it more whiskey in it. So like the ratio is much more, you know, like smaller. But if you go out in the isakaya or like those that the casual uh environment in the casual setting, I tasted it more thinner in an obvious reason, you know.
It sure saves some money. But um uh from from restaurant bar perspective. So like I'm not sure that exactly that what we do now at the Katara Kitten is about one to five. One to f so so it's light. Hold on, hold on, sorry, sorry.
That that's your question. Hold on, Dave. Uh the 12 ounce glass. I'm so I'm so happy that I brought I brought a little refreshment if you guys like that. Oh, nice, yeah.
Of course. So while while Massa's getting this, um I'll say also for those of you that don't know, Toki is an interesting whiskey because it built a lot for highball. Oh my god, look at this. So check this out. It's a perfect question.
Perfect first question. I mean, this is Massa. Look, Massa. Massa comes prepared. Listen, Massa, like for those of you that have never been to Katana Kitten, Masa is an unbelievable host, and that's part of the bar experience.
Is not only the cocktail and the way it looks, but unbelievable host. So uh a well-known bartender back when existing conditions was open, went to Katana Kitten and then came to uh our bar and was like, look, I got a signed uh I got a signed, you know, whatever it was, like the the sake box or something from uh or something signed from uh from Massa with my name on it. And so I just took a piece of fruit off the bar. I was like, get out of here, jerk, and signed it and gave it to him because like we there's no one can no one can beat Massa at that kind of host game. You know what I mean, Michael?
I agree a hundred percent. Yeah, there's a he's super interesting. So while oh look at this. Yeah, so I brought some uh uh glass. So well ice, just like we make uh uh back in the katana kit.
So uh for uh uh a visual, I uh there's appears to be a chilled bottle of spirit, chilled glasses with ice in them coming in a uh like in a container. Perfectly tempered at ice. Per perfectly tempered, yeah, yeah. Not like look, it looks clear. I'm giving you a visual reference, and you can see it if you're a Patreon member, you can see what's going on.
Yeah. Now, I'll say this about Toki. What's interesting about Toki, the whiskey specifically for highball applications, is that it is a very viscous whiskey. So uh it maintains its body uh with dilution. It's specifically designed to maintain body over a wide uh over a wide dilution range.
I would d I don't think you were there, Massa. I don't know. I did with Don years ago at the Brooklyn Bar Convent. I we did something with Toki and I was getting to talk to the uh not the distiller, but the new the the US rep uh American guy. And we were what?
Gartner. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we were we were talking about uh we were talking about like specifically why Toki is designed for uh highball. You know? Yeah yeah yeah yeah absolutely I'm so sorry I brought only three do you have a cups okay oh my god oh beautiful so thank you so much Michael and Pai Yeah can I brought I brought enough uh uh I think I brought enough whiskey for another and John we we can we can split oh I like the little twist on time cheers thank you for having us yeah so this is this is what we would refer to as a delicious refreshing drink right but the but the nice thing about um Toki right so like would you say it's fair that culturally at least in the past American bar drinks have skewed higher in alcohol than than the equivalent actual drink consumed in Japan.
So like this tastes like delicious and refreshing like maybe nowadays I think many people gravitate towards this and I get older I gravitate towards this kind of drink becoming very popular now. But back in the day there was more of a difference between Japanese perception of ideal amount of alcohol in a drink and American idea of ideal alcohol and drink. What do you think? I'm not sure you know like the I I think that the consciousness was more the experiencing alcohol which is feeling the booze right like may maybe that's what I think. So like today, like you know, like it's not about uh uh thinner, but more flavor.
Right. You know, like the kind of the the focus is more on not on the money, that penny that you're spending on you know, like it used to be like, oh come on, like it's it's so thin, you know, like it was I I pay this much and it was another shot, you know, that the that kind of the ratio on the the taste and you know knees. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's an extreme fine line. Here uh Michael, pass it back to John so you can have a taste, please.
Sure. There's an extreme fine line with uh booze in general, whiskey specifically, where like it's delicious, it's delicious, it's thin, right? And and and what's nice about Toki is it's a little bit more forgiving if they don't drink it at the right speed. It stays, its body stays good a little bit longer than some other whiskeys. Uh and in fact, we had a question, I don't know who it was from, uh, John, but roughly, uh roughly stated uh was if you were going to make a bourbon highball, what what would you use?
And so you'd have to choose one that works well over a wide dilution range. Do you have one that you like or not? What a high-proof bourbon work well, or is there an expert opinion as to the quote unquote correct bourbon? What would you use for bourbon? I think so.
Uh I don't I I really don't actually. I I like I like Scotch. I like I like um I like the Scotch whiskey. I like a nice Scotch whiskey. I like Japanese whiskey.
Uh I like bourbon too. But not particularly out of make that with uh uh soda water high boy, I just drink itself. Yeah. I don't know. I've never actually it's interesting, I've never made uh I've never done uh like a whiskey soda with uh bourbon.
I have one, I have one actually. Yeah, okay, what? Uh I've okay. Yeah. I I think that that makes absolutely beautiful high ball.
All right. Well then. That's what it the uh I was making back in Japan, actually. Oh really? Yeah, you know that there's a square bottle.
I think that was a 12-year bottle. Everyone's changed their age statements now, you can't tell anywhere. So but the that was like around 2000. Um the square bottle. Um kind of like almost a kind of etched design bottle.
It's so beautiful. And then I think that was something they uh used to make um back in Japan. And I I thought it was a delicious. There you go. I see.
Actually, uh Jim Beam has uh eyeball RTDs. Yeah, are they well everyone's everyone's on the RTD market now? Japan beat us way to it because they don't have the stupid liquor laws that we have, so it's much easier for them to do RTDs there than it is for us to do it. Have you had the Jim Beam RTD, Michael? I I have.
How was it? Quite good. Quite good. Yeah. Now let me ask you this.
Are you representing it? I'm just saying. No, no financial interest. Okay. Okay.
And you like it? I do. Do they jack it with glycerin? I don't know. Listen, people, if you if you were having trouble with your highball and you're using a whiskey that isn't designed for it, right?
Or if you just want to make your drinks less alcoholic but not taste thin, just put a little bit of just trust me, try it. Put a little bit of vegetable vegetable glycerin in it. You're not making it worse. You're trying to get a different effect. As long as people hate glycerin because it was meant to make things cheap, but if you're using it to make things better, there's it's it's has it's not dishonorable to use it.
Anyway, um that's amazing. Yeah, oh it's great. I mean, like, and so like uh, you know, when we were doing um like we were doing whiskey soda, we do whiskey soda with a company, and they they wouldn't they wouldn't want us to write uh they want the ratio they want. I would always add a little bit of glycerin because I was like, it's too thin. You know what I mean?
Uh Toki, you don't really need to. Like, you know what I mean? Like Toki is built for it almost. In fact, they don't sell it in Japan, right? It's only here still.
Yeah. What? I'm sorry. Toki is still only in the US. Uh maybe in the UK.
They have in the UK, but it's not in Japan. It's made in Japan but sold here. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Let me ask you about Japanese whiskey, because I know you love it. I know Michael loves it. Do you remember when like in like 20, like 10, 2011, Japanese whiskey was so so affordable? You could buy it. We like we bought Yamazaki was nothing.
I mean, not nothing, but it was like completely affordable. Now it's as you write in the book, Pappy Van Winkle syndrome, it's crazy. Is it making more difficult in your life to do it? Or does it mean that do you have enough customers come in and want to pay for it and then so it's fine? Or does it make you angry that it's much harder to enjoy for people because of the cost?
That's a long question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um but I remember, I wish I remembered like you know, like walking to Lucas as I like a 10 years old and the early interests, you know, looking at the shelf and checking out the Sansori's um uh whiskey price. But I remember uh d have you seen those um ceramic bottle, the new year bottle. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I have one. Yes, yeah. I have one, yeah. I remember that we had s my um my grandpa from mom's side, he used to have um um the watch clock shop, you know, like repairing uh the watches and the clocks. Um and then kind of new year gift.
Oh, didn't you say your dad worked for Seiko? Uh yes. But not the clock people. Not the clock. No, for the the new stuff, like the computers and screens.
Um the grandpa shop, so like as a new year gift. I think he was giving away those um for those uh regulars that uh you know clients and as a thank you, I think. So like all those like a ceramic model we have I I used to see as a kid, like what's in it. Of course, curious. But like there was a whiskey, so you can't touch it.
But I used to remember that the wall to wall over the those kind of uh what's it called? That the Sansori. I think that was the Sansori Royal. That's the inside of the juice. But the new year different shape and giving away to um those uh uh clients.
Um next time I go home and I'm gonna check on the shelves. Yeah, check out that shelving. Put it in your pocket because that stuff now, whisk like Japanese whiskey, you can't you can't even touch it. Like I remember once uh even a couple of years ago, we had a uh a bartender, very unusual, an American American, like an American born person who was working in a in a Tokyo bar, which is unusual as you know, and not in an American bar in Tokyo, in a Japanese bar in Tokyo. And he told me that like he goes to the liquor store like every day to see if he can spot one of the limited releases that come out, and then he buys it, and half of his income is actually just retrading limited release Japanese whiskies.
It's just nuts. It's crazy. Very risky. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. But apparently, like the stuff doesn't go down in value, you know.
Oh, is it illegal to do it? I'm not sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. So you don't spill it.
I mean, I mean, the the thing is nobody anticipated this boom, including the Japanese producers. So you can't just make this stuff overnight. You know, it has to age for a certain period. So I I think we're gonna be facing this situation for a while. Yeah.
Well, I mean, like, in a way, I mean, obviously it's good for the producer, right? I think so. You know, I if I was uh making uh if I'm if I'm the whiskey producer, it's like um Japanese whiskey producer, you know, like I went to buy it. I went I went to buy my uh all my whiskeys. Don't drink too fast, but uh not too slow, you know?
Exactly. Yeah, uh now something I want to ask you. So you came over in what, like uh 2007 or something like this? 2008. 2008, yeah.
So uh and you write about this. One of the things that's always fascinated me is culturally the difference in how to learn a craft in Japan versus in the US, right? So in the US, we expect that if I'm gonna go do something that you're gonna teach me, right? And uh we get mad if you don't. If you don't teach me, you know, we get angry.
You know what I mean? Uh you we feel that uh that the you know the mentor is is not uh is not a good mentor, that they they are not uh, you know, they're not being giving, right? And um, you know, from the few times I've interacted with people in Japan or you know, from Japan coming over, it's very uh different. And you you know, you write it in the book, I'm gonna mispronounce it, but uh um Minaraya, how do you pronounce it? The look and learn, watch and learn, min minar.
Min Minara. Minara. And it's a very, very different, it's a very conceptually different, right? It's not about me asking why you do something, it's about looking and paying attention, a completely different way of learning. So as someone who is brought up with that, but you have to train American staff.
How does that work? Like how do you how do you split that difference? Do you feel more American in the way you train, or do you feel more like uh in the Japanese way when you're training people? That's gonna be a very long uh answer. So the I think to meet today, uh this is how uh the way I think is that you know, like thanks to this very person, his name is Mr.
Asai. He's in the book that you know I really uh show um really gratitude. He was the head waiter in your first big job, right? Exactly. Amazing.
You read it. Um so so Asai um told me once and says, like uh how important that like important to be a uh absolute beginner. So I think that the to answer the question, the different side of the teaching and different era that we all uh came from, like what we learn through the experience and working in very particular place in a very particular uh time period. And I I think it's to me, is it up to that how spongy your brain is, how flexible your brain is, or the mental state that they're ready to learn, not to take anything, not anything is that's the uh the very difficult, but how to be kind of not just only receptive, but but the how to take things in to you, you know, like that the as you get older and then you have the experience and you have certain mindset that like, oh, this is the way I like, maybe that there's a way I like to learn. But then when you when you were like in 1819, pretty much my head was like, you know, like that pretty stupid, you know, like that the kind of the airhead.
Um and that way that I I didn't take certain way of uh teaching method, and I wouldn't say in this, you know, that the interview that um wasn't efficient to me today. Uh if I look back, I can oh that that's not how you should talk to general generally talk to other people, you know. That that's not nice, you know. But uh back then I I took it like like really uh something harsh words and you know, like attitude so it's me that they're from those uh senpai's essentially, and then and on the way back and then uh on the train, and I was like, I don't know why he was so mad at me in that way, and then I I I trying to do this way, and then it was wrong way to him, and then like they got mad and why why why keep thinking like I never took it personally like the way that like you know this you know like so um which is the way everyone takes it here you know so like I kind of kept like never got like mad at them me in a way it was just like why the curious question why they were so mad why you know sleep on it wake up next day you have to go back to work you know like so you feel like a little oh maybe I don't want to go you know but it show up to work and it's again switches on like you clock in and on like you know like really like mode um in in its own that like setting up but you know that the tables and everything and then keep thinking and then next time you see something he does so many things so many you know like the amazing tricks and um then I think like oh oh that's why that's why I was wrong you know like when you see that kind of success in front of you like how he served and then made that guest happy like you know like really smiling and happy and then then I learned oh there you go that's a timing. That's a timing how you do it.
You know like that's kind of sort of the moved to New York sorry just fast forward and then moving to move to New York and then I learned so much from Naran Young and Lyndon Pride at the when I was uh Saxon pro and you know very different that the way I kind of like learned before like so like just like oh back in the school so this is the feel you know that they're learning from them and then they're both from Australia and then you know lived in New York and uh experiencing in New York in the restaurant and bars. So uh I kind of took lots of advantages in from that experience. It's just basically all these ideas that they're something personally I learned the way that from Japan, and that at the same time kind of, you know, just it's not teaching, but it's more like it like a sharing idea to uh staff that with the um something I personally experienced from those Japanese uh sensei from those Japanese sensei and then uh uh Narayang as well. So would you say, because this is the way I think to me, ideal, which I don't know how to do it, but to me the ideal is to teach, I think, which is the heart of what you're saying, is close observation, right? Close observation.
And another thing you, a concept you uh bring up a lot, which is uh the kaizen, constant improvement, close observation, constant improvement, and also the value and the love of repetition, the value of consistency and repetition. So, like these are very hard things to teach, right? And so, like, I guess the value of the system you grew up with, although you were young when you came over, but the value of the system you grew up with it's all that, you know what I mean? So, but like combining that in with kind of the US mentality, it's gotta be an interesting problem. Very hard to teach.
The hardest thing to teach, the the getting people to love the idea of focusing on the tiny differences in what they do the same way every day, the tiny differences. Because you can't see the tiny differences if you don't do it the same, try to do it the same way all the time, right? Yes. Um sorry, I'm just trying to listen to every single like the uh the questions, but yeah, um the beauty that the art of repetition, just like you mentioned, and then also, you know, the kaizen that goes back to the kaizen. The kaize sometime, yes, something existing and it makes a little bit better than uh existing stay, or you know, like what was it before.
But something you set called recipe and then repeat that again and again. And um, you know, so we have a highball menu and then signature cacto menu that you know the the on the menu, the sections or the five high balls and five signature cactus and the five um uh boiler makers. And the top three isn't always the same, you know, like kind of you know stays the same. And I'm sure there's a certain amongst like a certain people, there might be a fear of kind of pressure that oh, I have to constantly change in the menu. I have to keep it like exciting and you know, like that.
But what once we made those perfect three top, you know, top uh high balls, and then three signature cactors, including martini, uh Negroni twist, and then uh uh whiskey sour variation, and then high balls that do, you know, the same that we have ginotonic and um voca soda essentially is called melanime soda. Never comes up to the menu, but that there's a really definitely uh art that just like you go to your old favorite place, you know, it could be a diner, could be like in a diver, you know, neighborhood or uh your favorite restaurant, you know, always certain your one of your favorite comes out absolutely same flavor, same temperature, you know, like the same plating, you know, not too much sauce, but like exactly amount of the the right amount of the sauce every single time. And I I think that's beautiful. It's comforting, it's comforting, it's very comforting. So that's that's right.
So that I think that's the word that they kind of come back to the service, and you know, while we do it, they to make sure it's comfortable, I think. And approachable, and then it's comfortable, I think. Right. I mean, uh, it's interesting though, because I I think that's true. Like, so you know, at this point in my life, right, I have recipes that I've been making pretty much the same way for I don't know, in 15 years, 16, 17 years, something like this.
Uh and um, you know, uh professionally, I mean, not like, you know, at home, you know, but and sometimes yeah, you just have to keep focusing on it because you have to keep sometimes you have to erase in your mind what you know because the conditions on the ground change, and so the product isn't the same as it was when you start. It's crazy. Like you have to still be open your entire life to change because otherwise you can't see it happening in front of you, you know what I mean? Right. I think that the the the mindfulness, but the mind of uh the the kaizen.
So that's why you notice the difference from the before. It's just like it's that like, oh, this carrot doesn't taste the same like today, you know, like from yesterday. And then I think um that kind of like from the start, like a beginning of Kaizai, I guess. Like you kind of start noticing uh maybe the difference. All right, so we're gonna go to a commercial break, but what I want what I want to take away, we come back maybe, is uh Moss's idea of the spongy brain when you're young.
And I think the way to stay the the the peak thing when you get older people, I don't know how old you are listening, but when you get older, try to get some of that spongy brain back. The hardest thing to do, throw away what you know and try to be a beginner again, no matter what age you are. This way you can you can keep learning. Anyway, spongy brain, we'll be back in a minute. Cooking issues.
This episode of Cooking Issues brought to you by Aura King Salmon, our favorite fish. Today we have Michael Fabro from Ora King to tell us more about it. Aura King salmon is a king salmon raised or farmed down in New Zealand. Among all the salmon species, kings carry more fat. And then Oraking is particularly uh rich in fatty.
We like to think of it as like the wagu of salmon. Uh our fat content's about 25%, so 25% fat tollen. And the salmon it's cured with uh sugar and salt, and it's smoked with manuka wood. It's uh an indigenous wood to New Zealand, and and down there it's very traditional that you would smoke meats and fish with this. And it also imparts what I think is like a pretty cool flavor.
Like I've picked up the shavings of Manuka, and it kind of has this herbally, almost eucalyptus essence to it. So it's just a little bit different. Oracing salmon, follow them on Instagram at Oracing Salmon. Everybody's favorite fish. And we're back.
Uh so uh I had a question I wanted to get to because we have uh uh Michael and Masa here today. So I know you're experts in uh uh Japanese spirits, Japanese products. What do you guys also like know a lot uh about like Okinawan products as well? A little bit? Can I ask you a question about Okinawan product?
I think so. Just a little bit, just a little bit. Well, I mean like more than me. Uh which is zero. I know nothing except for the sugar, which is delicious.
Do you guys use that Okinawan sugar or no? Yeah, we do. It's good, huh? Yeah. There's different, there's so many different kinds.
Every brand, every one is a little bit different. Which ones do you which Okinawan sugar do you use? Uh just buying it from uh so we moved to near Palm and I could ask you. And then it's like we found this the Japanese grocery store next to it. This is just sell it.
And it's uh from um uh you know, like it kind of like a rock sugar. Yeah, yeah. But um looks like basically the kind of coagulated molasses, kind of looking. You know, like that the not the like rock sugar, like a kind of sharper edge on the cut, but like more like a kind of round, like it looks like a little, you know, looks like something, but but kind of like a little soft, more kind of the powdered edges, but that the dark cane sugar. So they form Okinawa.
And but uh because some I've had are very bitter and some just a little bit bitter. Like I don't know which one you like because the the different applications, not necessarily better or worse, just different. Like, do you like it more bitter, more sulfur, or do you like it more like a little less crazy? A little less crazy, I think. I use those for uh uh especially in cooking, particularly in cooking.
Uh amazing with the pork. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Apparently they have some amazing pork there too, right? I've never been to Okinawa.
I've never been to Okinawa. Someday I'll go. Uh okay. So the question was, and I'll butcher it pronunciation again. Uh Awamori, which is uh so tell so the question was from um Panda Tadoka was not exactly a question.
Would love it. We could talk about our mori. I had it for the first time this past summer and loved it. Very challenging to get on the East Coast, but would love to know more about uh more about it. So if you guys have something to say, let me know.
What do you got? Michael. I mean, for my uh from my limited knowledge, I would say it's uh very similar to uh shochu, but it uses a uh a different kind of uh koji, which is a uh beneficent uh enzyme that helps uh turn uh sugar into turn starch rather into fermentable sugar. And uh I I believe they use uh a different strain of rice as well. Yeah, I forget which which is like a like uh the Thai rice, yeah, like in indica Thai rice or something.
Exactly. So that the only my memory of uh uh Awamori, very particular everyone's taste changed right like from like when you were young and in the older and then I I think you get older and then much more appreciation and more knowledge you know you have that before you even sipping something so like okay so you already have appreciation appreciation taste makes things think taste taste um better so uh is like pretty much like so I'm from Nagano the country's heart in the mainland in uh Japan high school I believe no I think it was a high school high school or junior high uh field trip you know like the the everyone's like taking in the uh the airplane for first time and then it's going to Okinawa so that that was Okinawa I think yes and it went to Okinawa and you know what we do like in the 13 15 years old kids you don't like you drink you know like you so um and but you don't know how to drink and then I remember how funky it was and immediately immediately you know but the the way you drink it you know like 1315 it's like you drink from the bottle you know then pass it around and um I remember how funky there was I remember how immediately I guess it um that's my uh Awamori impact uh on my brain to this day until I tasted some uh the modern one uh recently but I wish they didn't change that like certain brands like started making more any you know you can do whatever you want but I like more funkiness and then like more kind of uniqueness you know just to stay as it is instead of oh make it little you know let's do like three times and then oh listen last time maybe you can put in the continuous and it comes out a little smoother you know so you can sell but um that that's my uh what uh well what brand do they ship out here I don't even know I'm not sure that they were you know, like Skernik. They have like wide selection of um imports from the colour. I love Skarnick. Skirnik was great.
Yeah. But the That's a dis that's a distributor, by the way, uh out here in New York. But they they're they're good for those of you that don't know what we're talking about. Well, big out a big shout out to Justin. Well, but the sorry, this is not uh Mori, but uh we we carry uh the rum from Okinawa.
Oh, yeah. Uh but not from mainland Okinawa, but the Okinawa can at the kind of state of Okinawa and the other tiny island called Minami uh Daito. I think that's the name of the Minami Daito, that name of the island. It's called Korkur. So C-O-R, Space C O R.
They have a green one and a red one. Uh those are unique rum uh from Japan. Uh from Okinawa. And we can pick that up here in New York, right? You can buy from yeah, you can find it in New York.
So can I tell you, Mike? Like, so this is uh when uh young when you have something the wrong way. So my first experience with sake, I had no idea. Now remember, this is in the late 80s, right? So like in 1989.
So I'm like 18, 19, and it's illegal it's illegal for me because it was already 21 years old and I wasn't 21. So like uh all we knew back then in the in the US was oh, you're supposed to drink this hot. You're supposed to drink this hot. So we went to the wine store, and somehow someone bought us this bottle of sake, like a little bottle, I still remember it. Ugly bottle, like really ugly bottle.
Really bad quality sake. You know, uh and uh and we heated it up, and I went outside to watch a band play. And the minute this touched my lips, I was like, oh people drink this. I was like, this is the worst experience of all time. You know what I mean?
And it was many years before I could come back and appreciate it, just because if you have something wrong the first time, you know what I mean? Or when you're young or you someone doesn't prime your head right, it can poison your mind for a long time. It's crazy. Traumatizing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Uh so you mentioned also um, I know like a lot and mo most of our listeners will already know. Okay, but you have a beginning section where uh where you you talk about it, so let's just you want to dispel or talk about the differences between uh shoju and shochu, like the difference between them, like Korean versus Japanese, like what's going on and the difference just so people know. Most of our listeners will already already know because we have a very technical listenership, but why don't you get into it and then your love of it? I know you could work a lot with uh Ichiko, which is a good company if you want to talk about that too.
Yeah, about the Shochu and the Soju. Yeah, so the Soju is from I believe it's from Korea. Well, pretty much anyway, like you can make and then as much as you have a respect for the origin, and then you can call it the soju or the shochu. You know, you can I think you can make any shochu in here, and you can't call it, but like you can make it. Are there any rules here?
Do we have rules? I'm not sure. Can you make American shochu? Do we have rules? Michael, do we have rules?
I have rules. Well, you have rules. Um, like we go there there are there are uh soju's that have been made in the US, and you can call it soju, but the not shochu. That I'm not sure of. So if you had to like tell like the main difference culturally between the two, what would you say?
Here's the thing. Um, confession to make it. Have I ever tried the soju? I'm not sure. Really?
I'm not sure. Because even when I was in Japan, even I really drink much shochu either. You know, I was I like I like being and I like wine. All right. You you tell the story about stealing all of the wine after the guests leave.
Not stealing. No, not stealing. It's kind of gross. But like no, no, back then, like it wasn't gross at all. Like, you know, like you 19 years old.
If you read the book, people are like leaving like half glasses of like 82 Latour around with the one you mentioned in the thing, and you're like, I mean, of course you taste it. Come on. Come on. Someone leaves like, you know, $1,000 bottle of wine in the in the you're gonna taste it. Yeah, absolutely.
Look at this, like, oh, Chateau La Fit. You know, like in the 89. Um, beautiful, you know, like it's a beautiful one. And it's like, how how come like they're such a waste they wasting money, like this much, like this much? Yeah, you know, leaving in the bottom of the uh bottom of the bottle.
He's showing a full glass with his fingers, by the way. I just poured it out and it's like it's all the the segments. You'll let it settle, yeah. Um I've poured expensive stuff through napkins. I don't know whether you guys have done it, but I mean I've poured expensive stuff through napkins.
I'm not, you know. You should use a spinzall. Well, that's interesting. It would uh I wonder what how much it would aerate it. I'm gonna think about it.
I've never tried to desediment with it. Hey, so go ahead. Yeah. So we're talking about like other shochu. Yeah, other, yeah.
So, like, so you're saying you weren't drinking it that much, but you use it a lot now. I do. Um, I think the unique thing about shochu, um, speaking of Japanese shochu, made in Japan. Honkaku shochu, those are a little uh lower alcohol percentage than 25% compared to, you know, like the alcohol. When you say white spirits, you expect like 40% and plus, you know, that the so that's why you get that uh when you sip it or you chug it, you you taste that uh weight.
So that kind of reflects in the cocktails as well. Um but that the today, like you can, you know, depends on how what you mix it, but you can make beautiful, flavorful uh drink with hunkakosho, 25% alcohol, which is much more lower, but still it kind of surprises that like sometimes I think that you know, more higher the booze, and you expect more flavor on in the way, but the uh you need to think about uh those hong kaku shochu that 25%. You know, it's definitely slighter, it's like lighter to your palate, the the the way that it calls your mouth, that the alcohol calls your mouth. But lower lower alcohol, but still carries enough flavor to stand up for that the 40, 40 plus percent uh spirits. Right.
Difficult to use in a cocktail though, right? I mean, that's why like Ichiko, which is like a 40% like uh sugar. Saiten Saiten, that the that's the name of the we use both actually. Right. So we we use um uh Ichiko Silhouette, which is a traditional Honka Shochu, 25%.
Uh you we make kind of like old-fashioned, seasonal old-fashioned style cocktail. So old-fashioned that you expect like a kind of stronger cocktail, but uh the it comes out as kind of a little lighter, but the good flavor cocktail. So then uh we use um uh Ichiko Saiten, which is the um uh higher purified, I believe it's 43% alcohol. And we use that uh for our signature um uh negroni twist. It's called megaroni.
Yeah, yeah. You want to talk about that? Because you have a lot of like uh funky stuff in that. You want to talk about the recipe for that? So that's in the megoni number two, which we change the recipe on the way, uh Kaizen, uh whatever.
Um so uh Ichico Saitan as a base, and then we add just like the Negrani. So that's a uh portion of it, and then equal parts of that and cafo red bitter, the Italian bitter instead of campari, it's a little bit rounder, uh, and then uh cockto shochu, which is the choya, uh, which is a big uh shochu, uh sorry, big umeshu maker in Japan. Uh they make it this one's called kokuto, which is uh just we oh my gosh, that's just like we were talking about that the uh cane sugar, the black cane sugar, extra age uh uh umeshu. So kind of little richer style of the umeshu. And so we uh dash of uh uh Geneva to kind of give that a little more kind of a little maltiness kind of yeah it's very maltiness stuff.
Use the old duff you said in the you call out the actual brands in here, which is interesting, which I think is a it's a newer way of writing. Anyway, go ahead. Uh no, it's okay. So yeah, two different styles of shochu. Um but today definitely I appreciate more um I don't want to repeat the story, but like how I remember from first shochu experience in Japan when you're young, um, to today because I have more appreciation, so uh I get to taste, you know, uh different nuances, yeah.
Let me ask you this because I don't want to forget. So Nastasi and I, and you mentioned the bar here, the uh park high at the New York uh the New York Bar and the Park Hyatt Hotel in Tokyo. Amazing service here. I mean, like Stars, how much did we love working there? Loved it.
Loved it. Uh the um the people who uh were the the the staff there was so nice to us. We Stas, how many unreasonable requests did we make? So many. We couldn't you and I couldn't figure out the subway system.
So they they did everything. It was it was ridiculous. It was ridiculous. I still remember one of the uh my son Dax came and one of the guys, uh, one of the people who was working at the uh and what's weird is I liked the uh Europe that so the Hyatt is a European company, right? So like the the very high management is European in in a lot of these big hotels, right?
But the uh the the staff, most of the staff, Japanese. And remember how mean sometimes like some of the European people were to the we couldn't believe it. Remember that, Stas? Yeah, yes. It was so hardcore.
So there was one guy named uh Isagai. Isagai son was one of the bartenders. Uh I don't know his last name. Anyway, he helped us, and when my son Dax came, uh, they were super nice to Dax. Dax was, I don't know, how old is he, Stas?
He was like eight, something. He was really young, right? And we were taking him around, and uh Isagai takes off his his uh he had like a silver chain. It's cool, it's like cool shape, takes it off and puts it around Dax's neck. Dax still has it.
We call it the Isagai chain. Oh my god. I gotta find this guy. Thank you. Yeah, yeah.
Anyway, that's not the story. So Nastasi and I, before my family showed up and before uh you know her boyfriend at the time showed up, we went, I've told the story on the air before. We went to we were just wandering around Tokyo. We have no idea where we are, and you know, I'm very cheap, so I didn't pay for data. So I had no GPS, I had no nothing.
And you know how hard Tokyo is to get around, especially if you can't speak, you know what I mean? And uh remember Stas? They literally gave us a piece of paper to hold up that says, We're idiots, please tell us how to get back to our hotel. Remember? It just said, take me back to my hotel.
Yeah. So good. Yeah, yeah. Take me back. Anyway, um so it's like it's late.
We'd already gone to one place where we had gotten the whole experience where they wash the ice and they do all this stuff, and we went to another one. And then our host left, so we were there, and we just were wandering around, and we hear, we hear like a noise. So we go over to this, I don't know, maybe a house, maybe a, I don't know, maybe maybe a a bar. We don't know. And we look in, and there's right size.
There were people, there was a bar downstairs, kind of, right? No, I think it was somebody's house. I don't think I don't know. I think it was a bar. There was a lot of people in there.
And I thought they were in a line, like at a bar, right? And so we knock, they open the door, and we obviously can't say anything. We don't know anything. And they look at us and we look at them, and they all have drinks. And so they just take us upstairs and put us on like a balcony and give us uh like a a buzzer, and then they come up and they just start bringing us stuff.
Did we even pay those people? What the hell happens, Dus? What happened to us, Masa? Is this something that happens in Tokyo, or is this completely random? You know, like you feel definitely many people feel pressure and after these like amazing compliments.
And that's that's like what we get. No we um if I was living in Japan, working in a hotel or walking in the bar, that's the kind of pressure I would get that all this amazing kind of out of the world compliments, you know, like just like like the what just happened, just like you said, that the impression kind of makes us like kind of makes me uh that would make me feel like like I gotta keep trying. I gotta keep trying. Sometimes I definitely feel the pressure when I was working at Katana Kitten, because when you do something special to one person, and everyone expects it. That's the beauty of you know, like just like the our talent is that like noticing make sure everyone feels special.
So you know, like that's that's kind of very unique, a compliment to towards you know, like a certain place, which is Tokyo or Japan, and then when you travel and then like unexpected kind of surprise that in absolute positive way that like remember that people remember those that the you know the your you know the Daxas Chen into you know that the those like a food and the the drinks and came out in right timing that very unxpected situation, which is you could walk past, but like you notice something, and it's just randomly walked in, that randomness, you know, and then you get that something, you know, you don't have to remember what it was, but like there was a food and then the drinks that like something you had, you know. So we didn't do anything wrong? No, no, no, 100%. I I think people in general, whenever you travel to I think like just like people like you and charming and ice, and you know, ask nicely, and then people do a favor for you, you know. Because like I know for sure, like every every once in a while nostalgia, like, man, I don't know if we did something wrong, right?
Right? Anyway, uh all right, back to uh wait, John, didn't you say we had more questions for these guys? I don't want to miss them. We had one more question. Uh somebody wanted you to just speak about the trend of koji and drinks and amazaki and and other similar such products.
That is uh there's a person, the perfect person to uh answer the question. Uh his name is Don Lee. Um but Don's not here today. And I know pretty much nothing about Koji, to be honest. I know it's it's a starter for many different things.
And I know Koji, I know the word koji as Japanese, born and raised, growing up, very familiar sound. But like, but like no, I don't I yes, one point maybe in school, you know, like some uh the the chemistry class or something, maybe maybe they talked about a koji, you know, that but you know you're not really paying attention at the time. So but um what koji when you say koji to me that the the the word and the flavor and the aroma associations go to yes, sake, uh miso uh shiok koji, which is you used in uh lots of cooking. Um and then the amazake you mentioned like kind of sake, so kind of sakikasu, that kind of flavor and an aroma, kind of sweet aroma, you know, uh kind of reminds me of uh the kind of connection to uh koji as well. Amazake, koji, sake, but no alcohol.
Um, you know. Um sorry, that's my own. Well, you're you're you're you're approaching it more from a taste perspective than from uh a technical perspective, which is how you should, you know. Right, like it's just like an east, right? Is it so like something lives there, you know, in the in the air.
The um kura, uh kura is traditional Japanese house, house, house um uh the structure. So there's a main home and a cura. The kura way you store things, which is kind of thick, uh insulated, kind of like made out of kind of mud, but kind of the more silky way, and lots of um uh the stokes and the grains in it, like to kind of make it like uh structure, uh structurally stronger. So cura, like you know, that the Japanese traditional kawara, uh the roofing and the cura. That's um where grammars, you know, generations and they keep uh uh the pickling.
When you open it, you smell it, you smell um very unique. It's not funky, actually. Maybe it could be a funky, but uh to me it's more about cold, even in the summer day, you know, they're just like running around outside and then open the heavy door of a cura, uh walk in, and then you smell that dusty because it's so dusty in there. Dusty, but cool, wet, um, but salty, very particular smell. It's hard to describe it.
And you were you were around this stuff when you were a kid? Yes. And then that's that that should have the aroma of colji too, I think. But you grew up in a modern house or not in a modern house? No, no.
You go really not from countryside. But like but yeah, yeah, but like I didn't know whether you like uh still lived in a mod. So did you have like an aurory in the whole thing? No, that I I wish we did, but it the that was a little before. So that the I'm maybe my grandpa's house renovated one point when I was like maybe five or six.
So maybe that time before it was, but the after that, even after that, I grew up in uh you know, beautiful tatami mat, you know, like that's why I I slept on and um and then yeah, until we moved uh my dad built his house uh literally like uh five steps out, and then yeah, that's my cozy. Sorry. So, like uh do you miss that that kind of construction, that kind of feeling for living? We because like New York is so kind of physically not serene, you know what I mean? It's physically punishing here.
Do you miss it or not? I do, I think. Now you told me this, and I miss it. I think. Imagine like, you know, like maybe um a place in Upsea, New York or somewhere, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then built a traditional Japanese house. That could be cool. There was a guy I never visited him decades ago. He built a traditional house in Colorado. I tried to go to his restaurant uh like decades and decades ago before people did this, and he built the traditional house with the Aurori and everything.
And like he had a restaurant and a school there, but I didn't get to visit it when I was there. I was kind of depressed. So like on this subject uh of Japan. So something that's interesting. So like uh like I I like we're separated like a little bit.
I'm 50, almost 51, right? So we're separated a little bit generation. So people my generation and older, right? Like the people I knew, if you were in Japan professionally in the hospitality world, and you came to the US, you didn't go back to Japan, right? It's like it was kind of like a one way, it's kind of like it's you had to almost break tie almost.
I don't know, it seemed weird, right? But now it's completely different. So it could when people were coming in Japan 15 years ago, they would hire like a Westerner to come open something for the concept, but not necessarily a a Japanese person who had gone somewhere and come back. But now it's totally different, huh? What do you think is is the change?
I mean that that sounds really interesting, really fun. I think it's I think it's amazing. Yeah, just like you said that the um just like a shingo. I think it shingo uh go con I think I I think he's like a perfect example. You know, he travels and uh lived in New York, and now how successful he is, and he opened in the barn in Shanghai and uh Tokyo as well.
Um but 20 years ago, this never would have happened. Right, and then Sol Run and the uh Sol Run as well, I think he Yes, he lived and worked in London and he came back. And uh Gen Yamamoto, um, I believe I've been to his bar, it was beautiful. Um also he worked in New York and it went back and off me in his bar. So um I think it's I think it's amazing.
So would you ever open a place in Japan? That'd be super cool. That'd be super cool. You know, like imagine like if you have I have something in there, so I get to see my family, maybe half of the time. And you know, then my family can travel with me in half of the time.
Um yeah, that'd be cool. The cool thing is you don't need a liquor license. Really? That's crazy. Uh wait, so a couple of things I will be remiss.
One, uh, you said that when you're make a daiquiri, you like to hit it in the vita prep for a little bit to aerate it first. I actually think that's a really good idea. Uh, Garrett Richard, who worked with me, he likes to sometimes pre-aerate with uh those little those little handhelds. Uh I think it's a good idea. I think it's a very good idea.
But do you actually do I didn't I never asked you about this? You actually do that behind the bar whenever someone orders a daiquiri off menu or or only sometimes? Sometimes. Yes. I think it's a good idea.
Yeah, it's cool. You know, it's just random. I think that I made up for my uh friend Stelo. Uh remember the time that he he came and he uh he was working for uh banks run back then. And um, you know, I'll make it something special.
You know, just just we thought about it and just and did it. Yeah, now I feel I gotta set the record straight also. Like uh, look, so the hard shake, right, and the cobbler shaker. I'm still obviously I know you love the cobbler shaker. I'm never gonna get my brain around the cobbler shaker.
For those of you that don't know, that's the three-part strainer. But like it's very Japanese, right? I mean, where it came from is not important. It's very Japanese using the cobbler shaker. Um so many years ago, the people everyone was talking about uh the hard shake, and um what happened was is uh Ueda San at the tender bar, even at the time he was maybe in his 60s, right?
And everyone was talking about the hardshake as this technique to get a certain kind of flavor in a cocktail. But uh the he not him, but Americans built around him this mystical concept of what it could do, and then Greg Bohm actually, your partner, my old partner, shipped him over here and he did a class, and I came out saying that I didn't think that the hard shake had any kind of meaning in terms of how it made but it it makes me sound like a bad guy, right? So the thing is I think he was very he looked very good when he was shaking. I just don't think that his particular shaking technique made the drink better in a way that we should focus on his technique in particular. I just want to clear clear up my perception of what he was doing, and it is true, I believe that aeration differs, it's more dilution, doesn't change that much depending on what kind of anyway.
Anyway, I just want to clear up because I know that like people have said that, and I never meant to be disrespectful to him or his work, just I'm saying, you know. But anyway, but you have your own version of the of what you call the hard shake. But for you, it's also you care more about aeration. You want to talk about what it means to you, the term hardshake, because you mentioned it in the book several times. I think I think I think as your experience, you know, like that doesn't matter.
You walk into this small bar or like a big high volume bar. I think as that shaking or preparation, a certain kind of like you know, the person's style of the shaking, and I as that theatricalness becomes a part of the experience, uh what essentially comes uh down to in front of you, that the glass sitting in nice and cool, you know, that they're either some people even like double strength, where it's got the strainer, but the hole's big, so it's just like you know, it comes down and the catcher with the some tea strainer. Or directly from you know, heart shake to you know the still kind of vigorous straining mode, and you know, like that comes down and then there's a shaz floating on top, and some people like it, some people don't like it because of the way that it comes to your mouth and like the melts and kind of watery, tastes watery. So I think it everything comes down to even to me that the you know, like those the kind of straight, sharp uh shoulder, straight shape cobbler shaker to like a just like today, that round shape. Does that taste um different?
Maybe to my feeling that like you know, rounder, maybe rounder, you know, that the the the sh the um let's make it a tiger in the heart shake. And then if I make uh myself the exact same ratio, same amount, same amount of ice, not the how many, which is literally the same amount of ice. Make sure your hand is when you first grab it, your hand is warm enough, not the second shake that your hands are colder. So kind of to that level and make it too different from the the straight shape uh cobbler shaker to round the one. Maybe a random one tastes a little rounder, and then the straight shape might taste a little bit more um uh refreshing, or you know, like a more acidity comes out.
I I don't know, like a kind of um uh feeling to me, but um, I think it's kind of part of experience and part of it. Oh, how come he's shaking so hard and how come he's not spitting anything and on his white jacket and it kind of yeah so oh I have very I have almost zero time so on on the way out what is it describe first of all uh I only know how to walk there. What's the address of Katana Kitten again? I only know how to walk. 531 Hudson Street.
So it's on Hudson Street between uh Charles and um oh my gosh, what's that called? It's a Charles and then the 10th. Charles and the 10th, yeah. And uh the book uh with Masa and Michael Anstanding, uh Japanese Art of the Cocktail. You can get it uh on discount at Kitchen Arts and Letters from our Patreon.
But on the way out, uh describe as we're bleeding out here the Hinoki Martini, how it looks such a pretty drink, so beautiful. Describe in in the sake box. That is very well made dry martini. But a little touch of a Japan. Delicious.
Yeah, look at his book to see a picture of it, and then go to Katana Kitten and drink one. Thanks guys for coming on. Hope you had a good time. We'll see you next week. Cooking issues.
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