Hello, welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live in the heart of New York City Rockefeller Center at New Stand Studios. Joined remotely today by Nastasi Dehammer Lopez. How you doing, Stas? I'm good.
And you are remote uh because you were exposed to the but you weren't with former president Barack Obama, but you got exposed to like his new style of COVID. Is that true? Uh yeah. Yeah. So I'm being safe.
Yeah, nice. Uh can you can you let people know? So this is classic. If you've been in business with Nastasia Lopez as long as I have, you you get to appreciate the classic Nastasi moves. You want to.
So any of you out there that have a business know that people like to send you random scam emails constantly. So what was that? What was it uh they sent to you for the pasta flyer business? That you know the Nastasia closed that restaurant down on Sixth Avenue. How many years ago?
I think three. Three years ago, okay. So what'd you get? Yeah. I got a text saying that I'd qualify, or pasta flyer qualifies for 257,000.
Uh and I wrote back and said the the restaurant closed, but can I still get the money? And they said, yeah, send us your email. And I said it's scam at email.com. Scam at email.com. Scam at email.com.
That's classic. I love it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Nastasia and I love to do that kind of stuff. Uh all right. Uh we also have uh, of course, uh working the working the sliders here. We got Joe Hazen in the booth. How you doing?
I'm doing great. How are you doing? Doing well. I'm doing all right. Uh we got uh we got Captain uh John Nihul here behind me, rocking the customer service.
How are you doing, John? Doing great, thanks. And what do we got? What do we got? Uh let's do the bookkeeping right now.
What do we got? Bookkeeping right now. What do we got? So for the first time ever, we are live streaming on YouTube for a Patreon people. You gotta go check out Patreon and uh see the post about it.
We are still and reminder that's for all access members only. P.S. That's Jackie Molecules Rocking the California booth, which I haven't introduced yet. How you doing, Jack? You doing well?
I'm good. Sorry, I broke a radio rules. It's not a radio rule. It's not a radio. Listen, everyone knows you anyway.
Like if Jackie Molecules can't say what he wants when he wants, what the hell is the world coming to? Like that. Back uh anything interesting to report from uh California. No, no, no. Nothing really except except getting this video set up, which is which is fun.
Um and yeah, reminder, it's for the all access members, which is the ten dollar month tier. So if you don't see it, all access sounds always sounds super gross to me. All access just sounds freaking horrible. Anyway, I mean, I know it's a good thing. I know people want all access, but like anytime someone says we'll give you all access, it's something I'm like, oh please no, please edit.
Please just give me partial access, tell me the good stuff. Anyway, uh back back to bookkeeping. John, what do we got? Thank you. Um we are still doing the discount with Orking Salmon up through the end of April, so check Patreon for that.
Um and then upcoming guests next week, Monday at 10 a.m. special time. There will be no show on Tuesday next week on Monday at 10 a.m. We have Kenji Lopez Alt coming in, which will be great. Uh then we've got James Hoffman coming on, Adam Di Martino at a future date, Oliver Millman on a future date, and hopefully Tony Hopkins at a later date.
And we will be working with Kitchen Arts and Letters to offer 20 or a discount to be determined amount uh for Kenji's uh upcoming book. So stay tuned about that. Well, and if you want to meet Kenji, first of all, I should just say this. Today in the studio for the first half, we're doing a uh uh half the show version of Classics in the Field, yeah. Old school with Matt Sartwell's we're gonna we're gonna from Kitchen Arts and Letters, uh, which you can find uh on the socials at K-A-S-L N Y C.
Yeah, K-A-L-N-Y-C. That would be Kitchen Arts Well, the arts. There's one A, so you don't get the and Kitchen Arts Letters NYC. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
Uh anyway, so we're gonna do uh a classics in the field, but Kenji is going to be at for like you don't really normally open then, do you? No, we're opening uh we're not really opening, we're ha we're I'm getting there early. Uh so Kenji can come in sign a couple hundred books for us uh on Monday morning. And then we're gonna go to the case. Oh wait, are you are c are customers allowed to go or no?
No, no, no. Uh sorry people. This is a uh Oops. We gotta we gotta churn him through because he's got this uh rendezvous with you. Don't fish bowl him then.
I thought maybe it was like an early morning signing, which is like I thought maybe it was some sort of like West Coast thing that like West Coast authors now that he's a West Coast guy are like we we signed things very early in the morning, but you know, yeah. I've just just doing what we can to make it happen. All right, all right. So uh since we only have you for the first half, uh John remind me, I'll save my uh regular morning tangents for uh for after the break. Perfect.
All right, you gonna remind me? I I won't have to, but yeah. What the hell is this? You'll you'll go on your tangents. So before we get into people's classics in the field question, uh I have to get this out of the way.
I'm sorry, Matt. Uh but Matt knows that, and everybody who listens to this show knows that uh I I've been kind of deep diving on this pie expert, uh Monroe Boston Strauss. Uh I now, you know, own something like six or seven Monroe Boston Strauss pie tins. I have, you know, uh which they're fine. They're not great pie tins.
They're not God's pie tin. Anyway, by the way, you should own several sizes of pie pen. I have two. You need several sizes. Here's why.
Uh let's say you want to use his classic trick of doing the inverted baking where you bake on an upside down pie pan, well then you're gonna want to upend that into the next size of. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Uh some of there's a lot of new pie books out, right, Matt?
Uh yes. The fall of uh 2020 was like the pie magedon. Oh yeah it was and any of them that stick out that you really enjoy? Um I think there were several pretty strong books that came out uh in that rush. Uh uh Kate McDermott uh who've had the two butt pie books and of course now I can't distinguish them in my brain.
Uh but either of them is is strong. There was a book called New Pie which came out a little earlier a couple of guys from Atlanta uh they were non-pros who like just enters a whole bunch of contests and they do a whole bunch of weird things to the to the pies. Like they use a little some modern techniques and yeah I mean there's some some fairly classic things but they're they're pretty crowd pleasing pies. Um I think they uh they have a few unusual approaches, but mostly it's just uh tweaks of flavor rather than technique. Um so I would say uh those uh Aaron McDowell.
Um I would look also, you know, it's been around for longer, the book from 4 and 20 Blackbirds. Uh all of those are strong, strong pie books. Nice. Well, uh yesterday, of course, was Pi Day. Yes.
John, if uh if we're all still alive next year, we should uh make sure that we do our pie social stuff at actually 159. That way it's 3.14159, right? And then that that you know, that's about as many as I keep in my head. When I was a kid, were any of you guys memorizing pie kids? I was one of those memorizing pie kids.
I used to do be able to do a couple hundred digits. Oh no, no. Uh no. It's a three point one four. You don't you never had the one five nine?
No. And then like I think I would have said one five seven, so I would have been. The way I always remembered it was 3.14159, and then I think I can't remember what's after that. I thought then the the next digit I always remembered as a single, and I think it's two. And then there's like you remember them in like you remember them in like strings.
Like I know like pretty soon after that, there's an eight, nine, seven, nine. Like it's like you gotta like you s you remember it almost like a gotta find the role and yeah, you gotta find that you gotta find the pie roll. Anyway, uh yesterday being pie day, I thought it was m moderately appropriate to uh discuss uh uh Monroe Boston Strauss. Now I'm gonna ask Matt this because you know he's the expert in this. So his famous book was called Pie Marches On.
Absolute the classic in the field, amazing book. Everybody knows it, hard to find now, but there's reprints and it's online, scanned. Monroe Boston Strauss came up with a second almost completely unknown book that is I've never seen in the wild a copy of it. I interlibrary loaned it. It's called How to Make Better Pies.
And it is an entirely different book. And I have done all the research kind of that there is to do on it. I have scanned a copy of this book. Uh and we have it up for Patreon people, right? It's right up now for pot for pie day for you guys.
I know I owed you a video. I haven't done the video yet, but I put that book up, scanned. I tried to do a good job. I don't know if you guys looked at it. It's a decent scanning job.
I did a decent job of scanning it and OCRing it, right? It is obviously a lot of the same information, but um like Pie Marches On, which was a series of articles that was published in a magazine, uh how to make better pies is also a series of articles in a different magazine. So they are slightly different. And he has slightly different points, especially about uh he finally talks about how to substitute flour in in Baker's in the um in the how to make better pies. So that's up there for you for Patreon people.
Now here's the question. Since I'm a believer in information being free, especially because the actual copyright on this is as long as you give the original people credit, you're allowed to distribute it. Right? According to the original magazine that was in, they're like they're like, do what you want as long as you give us credit. And since they're way defunct, I'm super happy to anyway, I'd be happy to give them credit.
So how long do I wait to have it just be the jealously guarded secret of the Patreon people and then release it into the world so that everyone can have this amazing document? Uh I absolutely uh understand the impulse there. I don't know the answer to that question. I uh I'm afraid that you would really need to talk to somebody who has been to law school to be able to do that. Well, no, I mean not legally, just like what do you think's right to give our Patreon people?
Morally right, uh like a month. Well, you mean your Patreon people do good things for you. I'd I I give it a little longer for the Patreon people. I give it like six months. Six months?
Yeah. All right. I mean, and the the true believers who are not yet subscribed to your Patreon will be willing to wait. All right. And maybe it'll tip the balance and you know, support you.
That's true. Because if you want to go buy this book, there's one copy on s uh on the internet as far as I know. I spoke to uh Bonnie about it, and she was like one she thinks that the two copies are up, one of them's fake. And the other one, you know, it's like one of these places that like says that they have it, but they don't, they just price match and try to go get it, which I didn't even know was a thing. She's like, Oh yeah, that's a thing.
It's definitely a thing, yeah. No, if she if she's suspicious, I would I would trust that suspicion. So there's one copy available on the internet and it's three hundred dollars. So one of you can go buy it if you want, or you could just join the Patreon and get the scan. Much cheaper.
And you know, yeah. $300 is not a s surprisingly high price for that book. It's a paperback. Still scarcity of material, give it being what it is. I'm not, you know.
I've seen worse. The thing is, is that I have a love for these things that are not actually valuable, just no one cared about them until much later, and so they weren't saved. Well, that's the that's the story of so so many books. Um I mean Monroe Boston Strauss has had sort of waves of revival, but this may be the first time that he's sort of caught the attention of somebody who's willing to do something about it. Yeah.
You know me. Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of that, uh when Dave Chang was on, I mentioned that, you know, again, the Pi King was there and how Los Angeles i is actually, where a lot of pie innovation happened in the uh early mid uh twentieth century, right? From the 20s up to the 40s, uh, because of him, really.
But you think also Marie Calendar is down there, like that that was the genesis of a lot of kind of modern modern pie work was there. Uh the chiffon pie. I was gonna say chiffon pie. Well that's Strauss. That's that's last year was the hundredth anniversary of the chiffon pie, and I couldn't get anyone to have us write an article about it, right, John?
That's right. It's ridiculous. I was like, hundredth anniversary of the chiffon pie. And P.S. You're all doing it, not there's no right or wrong way, but like the original was cornstarch thickened, which is weird because Monroe Boston Strauss was well known for hating cornstarch as an over-thickening agent, and yet that's how his chiffons were thickened, not with gelatin.
So, you know, the original way is actually a veget vegetarian way, not uh a gelatin way. There you have it. Um anyways, uh I and you know what what did I say I was gonna do for the video? We'll get into it later. I'm digressing.
Exactly. The other Los Angeles thing that I I spoke to you about, and this is why you sent me to to Bonnie on ephemera, is uh Guardian serviceware, the crazy aluminum pots. You ever you ever I have gone too deep on this? I've seen pictures of them. I've never owned one.
I now own too much too many of them. And I have a couple of uh, you know, uh listeners and Patreon subscribers who have started snatching the stuff up on eBay. It's still really cheap. It's not induction-friendly, so it's not necessarily a long long-term solution for those of us that are gonna move to induction in the near future. It's gas and electric only.
But they're very thick aluminum pans, and they're a form of waterless cooking. So, like everyone needs to go. So, what what waterless cooking was back in the day is you would very like tightly make the pot so that the lids fit on very tightly, and then you would cook everything with the water that came with it. And it's a very similar analog to Dave Chang's microwave bowls, right? So his microwave bowls, the idea is you microwave it, they make steam, the steam then absorbs all the stuff, and this, and fundamentally, you're no longer microwaving the food anymore, you're just providing the energy to generate the steam and it's steaming itself in its own vapors.
And Guardian Serviceware from the 30s to the 50s when their factory burned down in Los Angeles, uh, they were doing the same thing, uh, waterless cooking. During World War II, when there was an aluminum shortage right at the beginning, they stopped making their lids out of aluminum, made their lids out of glass. So if you're searching for these things, Guardian serviceware, they're pretty awesome. I love them. Uh, but glass lids are post-war and metal lids are pre-war.
And I have put up both copies of the first edition, which is the pre-war metal lid edition, and the second edition, which is the glass lid edition of Guardian Service, tested recipes up for the Patreon users as well. So you can look at their recipe book should you be so inclined. They stuck with the glass lids post-war. They did. They stayed with it.
And what's interesting is that uh as a business, this I find this very interesting because sometimes you do things because you have to, but then you end up liking it more. So having cooked with both glass and metal lids on the Guardian service, everybody I'm gonna correct me if I'm wrong, guys. What do you like cooking with? Glass or or do you do you like the the stainless steel common lid, like old school all-clad lid, or do you prefer glass lids? Uh I use what I get out of the drawer first.
Wow. By the way, all lids should be you got to figure out a way to hang your lids. Draw uh lid drawers are an abomination. I d I don't disagree with you, but uh somebody I have to get the people to move out of the apartment next door before I can expand my kitchen that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, like on my as far as I can, my lids are on the wall. That's why, like, luckily, in my metal lids, I've drilled holes in them all, uh in the edges, so that I can hang them. And then in my glass lids, they usually have a vent hole. Glass lids do. I guess otherwise they might be crack if the heat was too high or something.
I don't know. But most glass lids that I have have a grommet lined hole that you can put uh over a brad, at least most of mine do. Um we should get to some classics in the field. So I would say everyone likes seeing through glass, but the old school one, they used to use a trick because what am I gonna say, John? What am I gonna say?
What is the key thing about aluminum in the kitchen? I I don't I don't know. Okay, two key things. One, amazing heat conductor. Yeah.
We all know this, right? Second really only to copper in commonly found kitchen equipment. Two, very low emissivity. So the thing that they're trying to work around here is the fact that you can't get a lot of browning. So they have a lot of roasting recipes, but all their roasting recipes do a lot of pre-browning of the meats because there's no emissivity, so you get v almost no browning, even if you stick it in the oven.
Now, what they do do with the old glass lids, and I haven't tested it yet, but here get this. They put it on the burner, and the whole point is you use very little gas because it's such a good heat conductor, and then you pull it off the burner, you move the lid over to the side and literally literally reflect the the the gas flames radiant heat off the lid and boom, back onto the food to brown it. That's how they tell you to do it in the first edition cookbook. I would be scared. I'm just skeptical.
I haven't tested it yet, but I'm just like, really? Really? Is the lid meant to get that hot? I didn't know. Well, it it shouldn't get it should get some conduction heat, but all of the radiation, most of it should be reflected.
So to the extent that there is radiant heat coming off of it, it's supposed to act like a very good reflector. Uh interesting concept. One last one, John, I know you're mad at me. Yep. Their double boiler is a dry double boiler.
Seriously. Nothing, nothing down below. No water. So what it is is it's it's just one pot sitting inside of another, perfect seal between the two pots, and just an air gap between them, and that's their double boiler. They're like, our heat is so even that we can do a double boiler without water.
Have you tried it? I have one on the way. Okay. Glass lid. Anyway, uh when their factory burned down and they moved from Chicago to uh Los Angeles, and when their factory burned down in the 50s, they went the way of the dodo.
Hard to recover from that. All right, classics in the field. So are we answering questions or are we just letting Matt talk about classics? Does he he had the questions in advance? He can he can you can describe why don't you do it in the order that you see fit?
Okay, well, I have some of the questions uh in my head, and I worked out some longer answers to them. Uh depending on how time goes, we can revisit some of them. One of the questions that popped up several times was information about classics from the classic era, books from the classical era, I should say. So books from ancient times. Um those are very scarce.
Uh not a lot has survived. Um, and what we often have uh is fragmentary material. Um and stylistically, in terms of approach, they're very different from anything we would consider a cookbook these days. The oldest material that we have in any kind of substantial form comes from about 330 BC. Uh it's a poem by a guy named Archestratus of Gala, which was a Greek settlement in Sicily.
And his work doesn't actually survive on its own, uh, but large portions of it are quoted in a work that was published at the end of the second century AD, so almost 500 years later. He was quoted extensively in a book by a fellow named Athenaeus, who was a well-known orator. He was living in a Greek colony in uh in northern Egypt. And he wrote a book, 15 volumes called The Deep Gnosifists, which translates as roughly the philosopher diners or the learned banqueters. And it ranges across a wide range of subjects, somewhat erratically, as you might expect from dinner conversation among learned people in Greece.
And he often quotes from Archistratus who gives something like recipes, something like shopping tips, mostly for choosing fish. The Greeks were serious about fish in a way that almost nobody who succeeded them has ever been serious about it. And it's full of advice on how to recognize a good one. Don't let an Italian cook this particular fish because they'll do it wrong, but have them cook this fish instead. It's highly opinionated, it has a lot of character, but it's not a set of detailed instructions in the way that we now in the 21st century expect.
Italians at the time well-known bad cooks, right? They hired Greeks to do their cooking. But they hated work, right? The Romans hated work. Well, I mean, lots of people hated work, particularly the people who were producing these books.
I mean, and that's one of the problems with the surviving material. Um, Plato, for instance, uh, didn't really think much of the Sicilians because he thought they were too serious about food. Plato was suspicious of people who liked to eat well. He thought it was a sign of character. Plato, a good writer, crazy lunatic man.
Yeah, lots of in lots of respects. I mean, you know, uh he was uh paranoid and uh hyper conservative and invented Atlantis to discourage the Greeks from having a navy. I mean uh so not always the person you want to go to for good food advice. So there were fragments of books that we know like about tiny little amounts of, like uh uh there was a book on breath making uh by someone named Chrysippus of uh Tyana, but it's only known by reference in other works. Um so the idea that something, you know, equivalent to even like the Koran of classical Greece, just those those things weren't being produced in part because the people who did the work were not the people who were creating the books.
What about the what about the um the cuneiform tablets in the Yale Babylonian collection that were translated a number of years ago by that French guy who's now dead? Um I don't I haven't seen material from them, and my recollection is that it's uh more in the way of record keeping than it is a set of actual instructions. But I mean, he I forget the guy's name. He compiled a book which was then translated in the mid-2000s. But yeah, it's one of those things where the recipes, I read the recipes and they're extremely like mash up, mash up these things and you get it together.
But then people have tried to um people this one professor tried to like infer based on other knowledge he had of what people would have had, tried to infer kind of how they would cook, and he did a cookbook, and I forget the name of it. But you know, and then recently there was in England in a in 2019, I think, some uh group of a Mesopotamian scholars did a dinner where they tried to recreate a lot of the stuff. Uh but again, it's a lot of it's very speculative, I think. It has to be speculative just because uh we're not even confident in a lot of cases about the ingredient names. Yeah.
Um, if you start going back and looking at the history of early grains, there's there's so much division about what something possibly could have been that it's all making leaps of faith. Right. I mean, and even stuff that is fairly well attested, like a petis, right, which we haven't gotten into yet. Is that how I'm supposed to pronounce it apicius? Like I say I say apicicious.
I mean, I know people say a picius, but I also say Julius Caesar instead of Iulius Caesar. So who says that? You should say it the way you say it. I like it the better with the way you say it. Apecious?
Yeah, and Julius Caesar. Yeah, no, I I mean I say I don't try to pretend that I'm pronouncing it in the classical Latin way because they're all dead anyhow. Yeah. But I mean, these they've entered contemporary culture and sort of assumed contemporary American pronunciations, is my that's my thinking. Yeah.
Also, though, people shouldn't make the mistake that just because the everyone's dead, that we can't figure out how it was pronounced. There's a whole historical linguistics uh uh field of study, which is amazingly interesting. I took a class on it in college where they can deduce the pronunciation based on the changes that happen post that language. It's amazing work. You ever read that stuff?
I read small amounts of it and realize that was in way over my head. Yeah, it's it's just amazing to know that somebody does that. That's all I need to know. I don't need to do it. I took a class on it, and it's enough to know that there are other people who do it.
But my issue with uh Apicius is that most people, and this is why my favorite is I think the more recent one, instead of the the Dover reprint, I prefer the Sally Granger because she I think tries to take seriously the recipes and not say, well, all of these recipes must must have been wrong, therefore I'm gonna use my modern cook sensibility to recreate them, which I think is always the wrong move. Like I think the assumption is that these people A knew what they were talking about, and B, their food tasted good. That's always the assumption to make, right? I think so I think you have to take it that way because otherwise, I mean, why are you interested? Um if you're not trusting in in the author uh to have at least a passionate concern with their subject matter, then you're wasting your time.
Uh and the the velling translation that is that I think the one that's available in Dover. Um it was a interesting work because it got the ball rolling on doing translations of a piece, but there have been numerous subsequent ones in the Grocock and uh and Granger one, the prospect books has done. That is impressive. It acknowledges differences in the text, it tries to understand them. Um that's a serious effort to get into the material and see what can be drawn from it.
Right. And speaking of Sally Granger, I thought we should get her on sometime. I don't know if she is interested, but she just did a recent book on uh fish sauce on Garam and Liqueman, but it's unobtainable because it just costs so dang much. Why did well you said that their publisher is known for not caring about things? Aaron Powell There are some publishers whose uh whose business model involves direct sales solely to interested academics.
Um and they assume that it's somebody with a book buying budget, either a library or uh an institutional budget, and so they're pricing the books at $180, $500. Um they don't offer discounts to booksellers uh or to any kind of reseller because they're confident in their in the direct market. Reak. Weak. It it breaks my heart because you know, there's a lot of ask a lot of very good material out there that should be more widely available.
Now for a more modern someone had a question uh and then we'll then we'll move to a different continent. Unless you have more for the uh for the old world. No, no, I think we uh or the European slash because there's nothing Egyptian, right? No one's done any good work on Egyptian. Not that I've seen.
I mean, you know, tiny bits of information around about beer making uh and so forth, but food production, you know, and there's some blurry lines about the way Egyptians treated beer. They sort of concert considered it a way of preserving grain and um and they fed people a lot of beer, weak beer, uh, but nothing more complex than that that I'm aware of. Aaron Powell Any uh any good uh really good new work uh in English for like uh the translation of the 14th century Islamic stuff? There have been some books. There are several good books that are um that are coming out translated by a scholar named Nawal Nasrala.
Uh and she has uh continued to translate that material, I think very thoughtfully, uh well supported by footnotes and anecdotes and and her own research. But those are expensive too. They run anywhere from 90 to 200. Ugh. Um so it's better than some things, but it's not a casual weekend to pick up.
And are these the kinds of things that you I guess you'd have to interlibrary loan them if you didn't have the money, right? Or something like this. Yeah, I would I would assume that a good interlibrary loan program would be able to get them to you. I mean, we keep three or four of them at the store uh because we do get enough inquiries about them. They're not on the website, unfortunately, because to be honest, um I need to spend time with them to be able to write about them intelligently.
And I haven't done that yet. Most of the stuff that I've seen uh well, see I haven't researched in a number of years, so you you tell me, but you know, the last time I researched it with you was a number of years ago. Uh medieval medieval Chinese stuff in English was really sparse. Has any good thing good come out? I haven't seen it, no.
I mean, I'd I'd I'd love to have a selection of things like that, but I'm not aware that it's been translated. Right. And I know that someone was working on a translation of the old, like uh Thai royal stuff. Did that ever come to light? Nothing.
Andy Ricker told me that that there were these old documents that Thompson got and or whatever, and then Wow. I mean, I'd love to have that. I'll I'll ping ping uh ping rickers, I think. Yeah. Yeah.
Uh because that would be fantastic. Amazing. I have no idea what that would even look like. Right, because those recipes are different because it's like they live in a different literally different like plane from the Yes, from the ordinary people. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. I mean, wouldn't that be that'd be something something? Yeah. All right. So uh we have a question uh from uh Rapa.
Does Matt know it we're talking about the what I've always referred to as the Mukoito books, but there's actually four books, right? There's Introduction to Japanese cuisine, flavor and seasonings, and then there's cutting techniques one, Muguita 1, and Muglita 2, right? So uh do you know if they're just out of stock or if they're out of print? They are technically out of stock, but there is no date in the system as of a week or two when I last checked on them. So that means it at least not in the next two to three months.
Um but uh they're distributed in the United States by Random House on behalf of Kordansha, and um I have back orders in this in the random house system for all of them. Yeah, and they're well enough known that the price on ABE is pretty jacked up. I am not surprised to hear that, yeah. Yeah. Uh they are useful, uh meticulous books, and I don't understand what the what the difficulty is in finding a bigger market for them.
I mean, I don't own any of them, but I've seen the the spreads, and they're pretty good. Yeah. They're I mean they're they're they're from the source. They are the kind of uh careful, thoughtful, precise uh approach that you would expect from a serious Japanese uh system. And I don't know why it's such a struggle.
Are they in English as well? Or no are they are in English, yeah. They are translated. Are they as bad as the Monte? Not that I'm gonna make you bad mouth Montego.
Yeah. I mean, you know how I feel about certain Spanish publishers' translation skills. I I I know exactly what you're talking about, and I will say that they are getting better. I don't know that they've actually hit the perfect point, but they have taken criticism seriously. Well, that's nice.
I mean, if I can tell that your Spanish translation is bad, it's real bad. Yeah. Because I don't speak Spanish. So it has to be really bad for me to know. There are there are some publishers in Spain who were being very careful.
The uh the recent Disrutar book was really well translated. It felt pretty idiomatic. Nice. I mean, like, yeah, I've said it a million times, but like uh the the most important Spanish book in the United States in the early 2000s wasn't, I don't think the the El Bully books. It was uh it was the uh Roca book in terms of its impact on working chefs.
Everyone I know who was interested in in Sue V low temperature book, they were all getting the Roka book, and a lot of people based a lot of their early thoughts off of the Roka book. It was the only book on uh on on on technique. Yeah, you know, prior to uh when Thomas Keller came out with his book, which I have issues with, many issues with. I have issues with the Roka book too, but it was the very first group to attempt to do it. Uh and it was kind of a kind of a watershed moment.
And, you know, at the school, when I was at the French culinary at the time, uh we had both the Spanish and the English versions. And so I I, you know, looked at them side by side because uh the Rokas were super famous for this uh warm cod, right? And so in and then I looked at the recipe, I was like, that's gross. 'Cause it's cod, right? And I'd never been to El Calar Ken Roca.
I still haven't, which is unfortunate because I'd love to go. I was like, that's gross. 104 degrees cod? You know what I mean? Like gross.
And then I looked at it, it. It's backlog, it's it's bacalao. So it's salt cod, entirely different beast. And just that's how little they cared about translating into English back in when was that book? Oh four, oh five, something like that.
It might have even been a little bit more. Oh three, oh two, somewhere around there. I would have said two. Yeah, oh two. That makes sense.
Because that yeah, right, because uh one or oh two, because Wiley, I was buying him circulators in like oh two, oh three, you know, and he had that book right when WD opened, WD-50. It was like he had that very early on. And I I was remember I remember reading that book and being like, what the hell is this? You know what I mean? Like, anyway.
All right, so let's get some more classics so that we can uh well, all right, all right. We gotta get the classics out because I lose Matt after the ad roll. I'll have to do it adds soon. So what else we have? What about New World?
Hit me. For do we want to do classics in the field? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so uh two two books that I brought to suggest. First, not really New World, but Simple French Food by Richard Olney.
Um, amazing book from 1974. Uh only is an incredible snob, and he's a big liar uh about when it comes to the the idea of simplicity. But if you know that going in, you're gonna find this a fascinating book. He is incredibly passionate and detailed. Uh at the same time, uh he's you get the feeling that he would have been a horrible pain in the ass to know and work with.
But the book is completely absorbing, and it is very true, particularly to Southern French Provenceal food. So I think it's the kind of thing that anybody who's interested in French food needs to know about. Just take his I mean, he tosses around the word imbecile uh fairly often with regard to just about anybody. It's a good word though. Who isn't himself?
Well, I mean, it's not a good you're not allowed to say it anymore. I mean, it's like it sounds good. Imbecile. Imbecile. Well You like Dolt better use it too many times.
Yeah and uh it starts to lose its power. Yeah. Um as a contrast to that, uh I came to talk about Taste of Country Cooking by Edna Lewis. Both of these are about uh home cooking. They're very rooted in a sense of place.
The the Lewis book is about the food that mostly the food that she knew growing up in a very small community in in rural Virginia. Um it's very connected to the way the food was produced, where the ingredients came from. She talks about a salad green that they picked that they planted along the fence post on the way to the well because they watered the greens every day as they were carrying water into the house. So it has that that sense of uh of being very connected to a way of life. Um the only book is a little more there's a key phrase point in the early part of the only book where he talks about uh how when he talks to the men in the village he lives in, they're always willing to talk about great food forever and ever.
And the women get very tired of talking to him about it very quickly. Um and I think he's sort of divorced the the work of the production of this food from the enjoyment of eating it. Easy to talk about if you don't have to make it. Yes. And I think that comes through.
But still, it's it is um it's an amazing document of of of culture and food. And despite his um intrusiveness uh and uh his giant blind spots, uh he is passionately concerned with with the way that these people were cooking and eating. But diametrically opposed to Edna Lewis. Yeah, I I mean it would I I've I've never seen the two of them in a room together. Uh I can't imagine how much they would have had to say to each other in their time.
But Lewis was uh she was very calm and collected and stately, and um, and I think didn't much care about what other people thought uh and only was passionate and intense and sort of a darting wit, um, and technically incredibly accomplished as a cook, but um not much uh uh flexibility in the way he thought about things. So let me ask you a quick question. I'm I'm gonna get my butt handed to me here. Uh in the Americas, has anyone superseded uh Sophie Koe's America's First Cuisines? That because that's old.
That's like 1994, 95. It's like pushing 30. I have not seen any serious attempt at addressing pre-Columbian uh cultural food in English. Since then. Yeah, since then.
There may be works in Spanish. Is that book any good? It is. It is. It's uh I think it's quite seriously good.
Um it uh it really wasn't um interested in in sort of hearsay on folklore. She was looking for for documents, she was looking for archaeological evidence. She wrote it with her husband, who was an impressive uh scholar of Middle America. Um a lot of the research was her own, but she used him as sort of a rigorous sounding board. Um and uh she also did a a book called The True History of Chocolate, uh, which was done a few years later, um, still in print also, and uh and fascinating look at what we know.
The problem with a lot of that time is that the there were records in many cases, and they were destroyed by uh Spanish colonial people who thought they were preserving the natives from their heathen ways. Right. And uh on the way out, and we'll go right from whatever you say here. It's been a pleasure having you on uh on the way out as usual. We'll have you know we'll have you back uh for this.
I guess we're doing half half segments, John, basically. Yeah. Uh flexible. Coda asked, would love to hear a classic in the field about either old school uh ancient cooking in general in general, well, or Native American first people. So here in the U.S., anything?
What do we got other than the Sous Chef, which is a newer book, not a Right. Sean Sherman's book is is great, but it's definitely a contemporary look at at the use of traditional Native American ingredients, but informed by classic technique. Um, we don't really have um some great ancient work from even from the 19th century, as far as I know. It's um that was pretty much stomped out in a lot of cases. People who had indigenous traditions were uprooted and moved.
They were forced to adapt their diets to uh things like wheat, which were uh beneficial to the the wealthy white settlers who were growing it and selling it to them. Um so uh it's there's a tremendous loss there and um and documentation about what's out there is mostly about agricultural practices and what can be discerned, but in terms of like cooking, no. Not to my knowledge. Well, there's uh field of scholarship open there, if it's possible. Yeah.
Well, Matt, thanks uh so much. Uh, we're gonna be right back with more cooking issues. This episode of Cooking Issues brought to you by Oracing Salmon, our favorite fish. Today we have Michael Fabro from Ora King to tell us more about it. The way that a an animal, a fish specifically, is slaughtered has a huge effect on the actual quality of the muscle meat.
And you guys take great pains to make sure that the fish is under as little stress as possible, right? Yeah, absolutely. Everything we do throughout their life cycle, we're trying to minimize stress, but that becomes critically important at harvest. We basically gather the fish, have them swim up kind of the through this upstream channel where they will get to a point where there's a percussive stunner and a bleeder, and the percussive stunner will knock them out so that they're uh not uh aware of of the next kill step, so they're not feeling pain. There's no release of lactic acid.
So when you buy aura king, you're buying a salmon that is hatched in the second cleanest water in the world, kept in good conditions in a low density environment, very good genetics with a very high fat content, is slaughtered under very non-stressful conditions and shipped immediately to LAX such that it arrives at your door from Goldbelly four days after uh it was swimming in the water. Oracing salmon, follow them on Instagram at Oracing Salmon. Everybody's favorite fish. And we're back. Uh so I realized uh after I let him go that I didn't answer some uh ask him some questions.
Gas station chef uh in PA wanted to know if if the white rabbit cookbook was still gonna come out. Matt says it's been put on hold indefinitely. Why, John? I couldn't hear what he said. Uh well, I know.
Yeah, I don't really know much about the yeah, yeah. Was that one owned by some like horrible person? No, but I mean he definitely a lot of rich Russian olive garks would have eaten at his restaurant. It's one of the best restaurants in the world on the 50 best list. Yeah, all right.
Oh wow, you just invented a new word, olive gark. Let's say oligarch. I know, but like we gotta get Nick from the olive oil thing to come in. He's not gonna be the olive gark. Uh and I also forgot to ask uh for uh Miguel Kunz, the bet like the best book on uh for infusing uh liquors, like a deep dive, like liquid intelligence style.
Why don't you ask Matt offline and we'll we'll get that to him on Twitter? I spoke to him about that beforehand. Uh that doesn't really exist yet, unfortunately. Uh yeah. Well, you can get that Italian liquors book that got ganked from May.
Yes, that's true. You know, because that's all that's all infusions and stuff, but it's like Italian style, like Fiore the Alpi and all that stuff. So well, I'm glad you asked that because then now we know that we at least tried to get an answer. What else do we miss? Uh foraging.
Classic downfield. I mean Yule Gibbons. Yep. Stalking the whatever, stalking the blue-eyed scallops, stalking the wild asparagus, like uh stalking the uh the health verb's not as good, but like anyway, those. So uh Stas.
You there? Yeah. Can I tell you a story? You're gonna you're gonna enjoy it. You ready?
You ready for from my morning? So you had your scam thing. So here's what happens to me, all right. So uh so for those of you that don't know, like in my house you can't play music out loud because it triggers kind of booker. He loses his mind.
So like consequently, like I haven't taught Dax like a lot of like you know, what I used to listen to, so Dax you know only listens to you know very specific stuff. Anyway, so like when you want to hear music, you you put earphones in, and so you uh like people are walking around the house and we can't hear what's going on around us, right? You know, you get the picture. So uh, you know, I go into the bathroom this morning, I'm doing my business, and I'm listening to uh Soundgarden as one does. Everyone who listens to the show knows I love Chris Cornell, loves SoundGarden.
I'm listening to uh, I forget what song it was. I think it was like uh, you know, my wave or something. And of course, I'm marveling at how well Chris Cornell can go between like all those different registers, right? I mean, how seamlessly the man can go between all of his different registers, right? It's it's he's great.
And then uh the next song that comes on, because you know how like Vastasia likes this, but you know how you choose one song and then Apple will just decide what you're gonna listen to next? Yeah. And it's not based on anything, right? Yeah. So they decide that what I want to listen to is uh Machine Head by Bush, right?
Now, do you remember that song? You remember that? Yeah, yeah. Breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe out, like that crap. It's not bad.
It's not a bad song. It's just like I wasn't listening to the radio at that point in my life because I owned a 76 Pontiac Bonneville. Uh I hadn't yet spray painted it gold, or it was right around the time I had spray painted it gold, but stuck in the cassette player was uh a bootleg of uh James Brown Star Time uh discs three and four. So that's all that I ever listened to was James Brown Star Time three and four for the entire time that I had that Pontiac because that's all the Pontiac played was James Brown. Anytime you turn the key on, it was James Brown.
So like that was like the soundtrack of my life for the time that Bush became famous. So, anyways, I'm listening to my earphones, breathe in, breathe out. And I'm like, this song is so much easier, like the vocal range is so much smaller than freaking Chris Cornell. So I'm like, it's not a bad song, but I'm like, these guys are weak compared to SoundGarden, right? I mean, just vocally.
I mean, he's a good singer, but it's just not the same. You agree with me, right? I mean, it's just not as impressive. Of course. Yeah, yeah.
So you know, I got this crap. Breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe out. I get up, and uh, I lean over and I'm hearing the breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe out. And then all of a sudden the music stops. I'm like, what?
And then I feel the earpiece falls out, my airpod falls out of my ear, and I'm like, no. And I see because my head is over the toilet, and it's falling in to the business. And I'm like, and while it's falling, like my whole life is in, like my whole brain is in slow-mo. I'm having all of these thoughts. I'm like, I'm gonna have to reach in and reach out and reach in and reach out and reach in to get it, right?
Through the business. And then, like, what am I gonna do with it? And so, but then I realize, oh no, my finger's already pressing the flush button and gone. Gone. Breathe in, breathe out.
Breathe in, breathe out. Anyway, that was my mind. Why would you try to that? You your mind does terrible things, Doz. That's like I told you, I like I knew this guy who knew someone who their first day at at work went to retrieve a pen they dropped into the deep fryer.
Because, or like people, if you i if the if you're about to have your first job in a kitchen, like and and no one tells you this, your reflex is to reach for the knife that you've just dropped. Let it go, get your feet out of the way. You know what I'm saying? Your reflex is to go get it, and it's not a good reflex. Very bad, not very bad.
Very bad. Yeah. Or, like I, you know, like anyone who's heard me say this, like when you catch on fire, your reflex is to run away from yourself. Why? Because you're on fire.
Don't do that. You have to train yourself not to. Uh yeah, that was my that was my morning. Nice. Awesome.
Yeah. I knew this Nastasi would appreciate that. I mean, it's no, it's no closer, but you know. Nothing beats that. Yeah.
Yeah. If, you know, if if all of this goes really south, and, you know, the, and we're all gonna get wiped off and there's gonna be a nuclear Armageddon, right? If that happens, what sandwich is Peter Kim gonna have as the missiles are coming in, Stas? Yeah, the tuna tuna. You think tuna?
Do you have time to make a tuna fish sandwich? I guess I think it's like you have 15 minutes, right? It's 15 minutes from the time someone says go to the time we're all vaporized. I mean, when you throw something in a wrap, yeah, it's you know, quick enough. So Peter Kim, for for for new listeners, is uh the uh you can go listen to his podcast.
Uh he was a former favorite punching bag when we were on the old Voldemort network. And um uh yeah, the man, he his his main one of his main skills is no matter what is happening, man will be eating a sandwich. Truth. Yeah, no matter what it is. No matter what it is.
Like if he had been like, I want to Photoshop Peter Kim eating a sandwich into like images of the Titanic going down. He would have been on the deck of the Titanic, Titanic munching a sandwich. You know what I mean? While those bands were playing. He's like, I'm listening to the world music here on the Titanic as we're going down.
I got a sandwich. Anyway. Yeah. All right. Positive MD wrote in.
Any wrecks for food-related activities around the UK. Listen, I have not been since well before the pandemic. So I'm gonna ask the Discord and the Patreon people, uh, maybe some UK people over there, people who have been there recently to uh hook us up with some information. Would that not be uh a better plan? Yeah, or yeah, hold up.
Let me just read off what I sent him so everyone can do it. By the way, a John, uh a John Hill recommendation is a good recommendation. The man knows his at least Belgian stuff, at least. Thank you. Um, okay, so definitely St.
John uh by Fergus Henderson. That's an absolute must. Um, then if you can get a reservation, dinner by Heston Blumenthal. I was asked about that over the Fat Talk. I haven't been to the Fat Talk, so I can't say, but what I will say about dinner by Huston is really the value that you get for what you pay for there is fantastic.
And the food is super delicious. The staff is awesome. That uh roasted pineapple dessert is really delicious too. Um then, in terms of just other places uh for fish and chips, the Golden Hind, Poppies or Golden Union, Beirut Express for Shawarma, the three stags for meat pies, I believe. Uh M Mans is the oldest pie shop in London and is pretty fantastic.
Brickling bagel bake for the salt beef bagel. What? What? Bagels in London, really? Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. Uh Fortnum and Mason for supposedly original Scotch egg, even if it's not the original, it's still quite good. And scotch egg. Yeah, me too.
That's all I got. So uh Fabulous and Jeremiah and the wild end. So I'm gonna throw that one in the what is it? Sorry, Dishume. I want to throw in the mix.
Dishume B-I-S-H-O-O-M. Indian uh restaurant in Soho, I believe, in London. Very good. Nice, nice. The uh the original, but not the best.
Soho. I'm just messing with you. Uh Fabulous and Jeremiah at Wild Air have a Scotch egg olive, which is delicious. Yeah, it looks really good. It is uh it doesn't just look good.
You know, it tastes good, tastes very good. Uh and obviously, and you're not mentioning it because you're assuming that everyone already knows about it, but it might not be the case. You must go to Neil's Yard Dairy. Yes. Yeah, fair.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, don't assume that they know about Neil's Yard Dairy. Uh it used to be uh years and years and years and years ago, like you know, 15 years ago or so. Uh maybe even longer, it was before maybe I had kids. Is that the airplane would land and I would go directly from the airport to Neil's Yard Dairy so that I would never be in my hotel room without cheese.
You know? And for those of you in the United States who don't think Neil's Yard Dairy maybe is all that anymore, realize that they send they don't send always their best stuff here. Like the stuff at Neil's Yard is just freaking amazing. And if it wasn't for Neil's Yard Dairy, I mean, they were very early in the kind of cheese renaissance, and like I mean, have just done untold good for the cheese world. Would you not agree, John?
Yeah. I mean, yeah. Also, Borough Market is just kind of cool to go to. Yeah, and there is a Neil's Yard there. It's not the original one, but I think that's now their main wholesale distribution point, and that's where they sell the grilled cheese sandwiches uh or did a couple of days a week.
And yeah, Borough Market's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Uh all right. So uh we'll get to some social uh media and email.
Do we have any more Patreon questions? Yeah, the omelet. What I missed from Z. Oh. Xander.
Uh I've been watching all of these omelet videos. By the way, do you like omelet traditional style, two T's and E, or are you guys more E and T, more American style? I still do the two T's. Two T's and an E? Yeah.
Yeah. What about you, Stez? No, I don't care. Wow. On brand.
On brand. Nastassi Lopez on brand. Well, let me ask you this, Nastasia. What kind of omelets? Do you like omelets, right?
I don't usually eat them, no. No. So what like so like when you when someone says to you omelet, what do you think? Like, what is an omelet to you? Like what's inside of it?
Well, in other words, are you thinking like a small wet thing or like a big puffy kind of like hard cooked thing? Does it have a bunch of stuff on the inside? Hard cooked lobster crap inside. Okay, okay, okay. And uh what about what about uh what about you all you other guys?
What's like what's in your mind? As I say omelet, what do you what do you what do you think? The first thing I think of is like the omelet station at a hotel when they do, you know, buffet breakfast or something. It's horrible. It's just the first image of the money.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because I don't generally eat I don't really have omelets at home. Even if you don't eat it at the station, just watching that. There is a guy at a so if you drive along I-95, there is a truck stop called uh what is it, um T something on I95, like just outside of Brantford. You come out of New Haven, you go north, there's a truck stop that you pass there.
And I remember when I was in my early 20s, we would go there, and uh the omelet station at the All You Could Eat buffet was run by a guy that we called uh uh Rat Boy because he was you know a little bit younger than us and he looked like like a human personified rat, like rat tattooy, rat boy. I now realize this guy's in his probably late 40s. He's probably he's a rat man now. He's a rat man, yeah. But it's not that his omelets were great, but in the way that Dave Wondrich once told me that just the sight of the of the airline uh drink cart makes him like salivate Pavla style.
Like the idea of like the omelet station, I just find so enjoyable, you know, regardless of the quality of the omelets produced. Well, you want to talk about some omelet technique? So, what Xander is thinking about is the what about you, Joe? What's your omelet? I don't need eggs.
Oh, all right. At all or in things? No, I just I'm sorry I don't eat eggs. They don't agree with me. Oh, all right, okay.
Uh I'm assuming John uh thinks about the French little like you know. How do you describe that? It's not a teardrop, it's like a double-sided teardrop. It's like a it's like a lozenge shape. It's like uh how do you describe that?
I don't know, that's a good question. You know, in a way that's not uh suggestive. In a non-suggestive what what is that shape in a non-suggestive way? Uh tube with pointy ends? I don't know.
I don't know. Yeah. I'll have to think of it. All right, we'll think about it. Yeah.
Uh anyway, so it's kind of a very uh blonde, no brown on it. No brown. Like wet-ish but not gooey. Correct. Little suggestive shape.
And so that's the omelet that we're talking about. And uh typically, you know, Jocomos like us would make it in a nonstick pan, but traditionally you'd make it in a very well-seasoned uh blue or or you know, carbon steel pan that is used exclusively for omelets. You got John, are you putting anything else in that pan? No. What if someone put something else in that pan?
Death. Yeah, death. That pan is for that. So I've been watching all these omelet videos of uh Jacques Papin. By the way, Jacques Papin, famous.
Worked with him, worked with him for a bunch of years at the French Culinary Institute where he was one of the deans. So in finding Nemo, the the shrimp's name was Jacques. And so Booker early on saw that, and he was like, that shouldn't be Jacques, that should be Jackwes. And so we had a cleaner shrimp at the time because we had a saltwater tank, and we called the cleaner shrimp Jakuz. So in our house, Jacques was always Jackwez.
So then I started calling with Nastasia and with our interns. I started calling Jacques Papin Jackwes Peepin. And then from Jack Wes Peeping, it went to the Peep Show, and then also sometimes Jackie Peeps. So in our house, he's Jackie Peep. And then, yeah, and then we had like a remember that tall intern Andrew Nastasia.
Yeah. And he used to come up with nicknames for Jackie Peeps constantly, and then he would do the Jackie Peeps voice. Anyway. Yes. Yeah.
Andrew, he was hilarious. Anyway, uh, so whenever you say Jacques Papin, I'm always thinking Jackie Peeps. Yeah, or Jacques Peepin. Anyway. We've got three minutes.
I feel like I can make uh okay. And I feel like I can make my omelets like perfectly wrapped, but the problem is that I can't do it while making the eggs as runny as he does. Because uh then they leak out the side and stuff. Because when you're trying to do the final flip, all of the eggy mixture, a lot of it hasn't gotten tucked in properly. So when you're uh told to fold the final bit over, part of the runny bit in the middle starts folding out onto the sides.
You can never really get the lip over perfectly. So it's very tricky, and I don't understand what technique I need to do. It just seems insurmountable. I don't get it. It's so hard.
How do they do it? Well, what they do is uh this is literally how they do it, is they have someone who knows how to do it stand over your shoulder, and then they have you make them constantly until you get it right. That's basically what they do. So uh, I mean, and without seeing you do it, I can't really I'm not very good at it, but I could probably be the guy standing over your shoulder. Make sure that your pan is well seasoned.
And just look, keep watching the videos and don't listen to anything anyone is saying. Just watch the videos and look at the eggs. And the hands. And the hands. Yeah.
Look at the eggs and the hands, watch how we see it. See the movement panel. And see whether or not are you a are you a bump the wrist or you yeah, you gotta watch when they bump the wrist, watch when they do it, watch the angle of the pan, and figure that all out. Just so you know, I'm I'm allowed to keep answering questions. What should I hit?
I'll hit one uh out of here. Uh from Steven, ooh, this is gonna be a long one on flowers. I'll hit it quick. Impossible. How much time do I have, John?
Two minutes. Two minutes. Minute and a half, minute and a half. All right, Steven. My question about blending flours with different protein contents.
There's a famous chocolate chip cookie recipe that blends 50-50 cake flour, which is 8% protein, and bread flour, which is about 12.7. Well, it depends on what you use. My question is do blends like this function as a flour with the average of their protein contents, in this case 10.35%, or are there specific qualities that are achieved with a blend? I would think that AP flour sits around this percentage, and the recipe doesn't call for it. There must be a reason for mixing.
Thanks so much, Stephen from Chicago. It is not the same. The difference between look, cake flour is not just soft in terms of protein, it has very low damage starch, which means that it normally wouldn't hold water very well, but it's been brominated so that it does hold water. In a cookie recipe, I would actually try subbing a soft flour that doesn't have bromination or bleaching so that you don't so that you don't have the water holding, it means you can use less water and it'll change the spread. But if the recipe is what the recipe is, it is what it is.
But no, it's an interesting mix because putting cake flour in lowers the protein without lowering its water holding capacity that much. From Joe Waterhouse, hey Dave, I've been thinking about tap cocktails for a while. Oh no, this is the one I told you to reword. I don't understand what they're saying. But I mean I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, cooking issues.
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