Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from the heart of Manhattan at Rockefeller Center, New York City at New Stand Studios with a Kitchen Arts and Letters Cooking Issue special. Doing classics in the field. I don't do the old school classics in the field anymore, John. I don't do it anymore.
Someday maybe I'll bring it back. Yeah. I gotta feel it in my heart though before I can sing it again, you know? Yeah. I don't know.
Someday. Someday. I don't know. Maybe that's the thing I you know that I've lost is that ability to do the classics in the field. Uh I don't know.
Anyway, uh as usual, we got uh Joe Hazen rocking the panels. How you doing? I'm doing great, man. Good sh uh looks like a full house today. Oh my god, yeah.
You you know a little nervous. Joe gets a little nervous when the when uh when the newsstand studios is is full full. We are I wouldn't say nervous, it's just I don't have as many fingers as I you know wish I needed to, you know, to unlift right a lot of a lot of buttons. Right. And uh in California, we got uh Jackie Molecules.
How you doing? I'm doing great. Yeah. Beautiful day. Yeah.
I mean, isn't that why you're in California? Why the hell else? Why the hell else would you be in California other than uh, you know, you weather hogs? He's got a great apartment. Oh yeah, nice, nice.
Thanks, Doz. Hey, listen, here's what I hear. I hear that when people move from places like where we live that are like like you know, garbage weather, right? And they move to they move to places with nice weather that they do actually feel better for like a year and a half, two years, and then it like all becomes the same to them and they're just as miserable as they were before. Disagree.
I'm two years here now and I'm starting to feel better. Could be three, years. Yeah, but that's that's might be because of the people, not because of the weather. I'm just talking about weather related phenomenon. Oh.
Oh yeah, I definitely take that for granted. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh and in Vancouver Island, we have uh now what's what what are you the are you what do you think?
Operations, Quinn? What do you think? Booker and Dax operations. Yeah, I don't know. We we we were bouncing around some ideas.
I feel like second knit wit. Second wit. All right. I am headwit. That's a true story.
True story. Uh and uh I'm gonna go in reverse order. I'm gonna go in order like that they're seated in me. If you were watching on Patreon, you can call your questions to 917 410 1507. That's 917 4101507.
But I'll go in this order. We have our special guest Matt Startwell from Kitchen Arts and Letters How you doing Matt? I'm well thank you. Yeah? Glad to be here.
Well we're glad to have you because uh you have yet to be stumped. So you need anyone by the way no pressure now. No pressure now but like call in your you know we we should I call it like stump the mat or something like that. You know what I mean? 917 410 1507.
And then uh I'll go all the way to the back. John, how you doing? Doing great thanks how's the Chef Life treating you? Uh peachy my guy got over the COVID and so I had a day off on Sunday was this laid in bed and did absolutely nothing and was completely worthless and it was fantastic. Have you have you gotten your menu to the point yet where you don't need to sandbag everything?
Yes we finally ran out of Hellman's the other day. So it was it was a big big momentous occasion. When you say you ran out of it you bought more right no start making my own menter things you can spend your time on than making mayonnaise dude it takes like eight minutes, seven, eight minutes. You know who makes good mayonnaise? Hellman's the Hellman's corporation.
You know what you're supposed to do? I don't know if you remember this, but what you're supposed to do is you're supposed to bring out the Hellman's. Uh and thereby bring out your best. Gotcha. Right.
Which is a slight tip of the hat to the fact that across the across the river, the big river, not our river, that it's best made over there. So if you say bring out the helmets, bring out the best, what they really mean is it's the same as best made. Anyway. Uh I uh look, you really think that you're gonna make a mayonnaise that what are you using so I'm using only the finest walnut oil. Like what is it they what is it that you hope to make out of mayonnaise that's better than the helman's mayonnaise?
I don't know. It's like used for deviled egg filling and uh char some scallions and add some lemon juice and make a dipping sauce for me. I don't know. It's not like its own thing. It's it's a building block.
Right. Yeah. Right. So buy it. Well, why not just make it?
Okay. Like eight eggs, you know, quart of oil, some lemon juice, some garlic, a little mustard. It's all good. I mean, everyone picks their battles. That's your battle.
I love it. I love it. I'm a supportive. Supportive. Yeah.
Uh and of course, last but certainly not least, because I know she has something to talk about today. I don't have anything to talk about. Oh, come on. Such a trash can, Stas. I believe you.
Nastasia threw a pig roast. My neighbor and I, who Dave called No, you said I liked him. I said I liked him. He said, What did you say? I said, I I'm gonna go back to the bottom.
I don't bring a saucepan for these guys. For these guys. For these guys. So what happened was is this is it listen. Here's no my neighbor, we got a pig from Heritage.
My neighbor dug a pit in my yard the night before. Big ass pit. Big pit in it. At 5 a.m. he started the fire.
Yeah. And then the pig went in at eight. Uh-huh. And then Dave got there. Wrapped, wrapped in aluminum foil and leaves.
And then Dave got there at what time? Two? Two. And I said, go fix it. Well, here's here's the thing.
So, like, uh what happened, what had happened was that even though I personally, and I could have mailed them, right? I personally own at least two four-channel uh thermocouple recorders with thermocouples that can be embedded in the ground. I own at least two of them. I also own an eight-channel that I could have resurrected if you really needed an eight-channel thing, right? There's probably some in the storage unit.
Yeah, this is the storage on the way to nostalgia. Stupid. Matt, Matt, since you weren't involved in this scenario, let me see if you can guess what kind of thermometer they were using to measure the temperature. You'll never guess. Uh candy thermometer.
Oh, oh, that would have been no, no, no. They were using the COVID-style forehead small child thermometer that you like. Like the strip that you plaster on your forehead. No, the little one that like you walk up to someone like at an airport and you like hold it at their forehead. No.
And you see whether they have a fever. Because my the old soup from Pasta Fly was supposed to bring like you know, and we forgot. Yeah, but so uh we know that the pig did have a fever. Right? What level of fever?
Also, you can't use an IR thermometer pointed at aluminum foil. Not one thing was right about the way that they were measuring the temperature of this pig. Consequently, they were like, this pig's like room temperature. Pig was not at room temperature. Pig was fine.
Now, it is true, right, that then when they tried to rebuild the heat, they were having uh an issue because they weren't getting enough air underneath it. So what we did is is we we put we took the pig out, took the pig out, put coal up on a grate, started a coal fire, threw some more coal at the bottom to heat it, put the pig on top, some more, so a little bit of dirt, some more coals, and it baked through fine. But people, here's the other secret. It does not matter. Enough of the pig, and this is what I say when I was enough of the pig is gonna be cooked in one of these scenarios that there will be enough to feed people.
Then you take the stuff that that's right by the joint, right by the thigh or whatever, that's not cooked that well, and you take it inside and you pan it. And everyone will be happy. It doesn't really matter. It's about the communal thing of ripping apart a whole beast in front of everybody. That's the whole, that's the whole thing.
And it tasted good, I thought when it was. It was good. It was just good. I mean, when you bury a pig like that, it's not gonna be crispy. It's not a it's not a rotisserie, it's not a crispy scenario.
But a gooey fat is also a good fat. A gooey skin is a good skin. You gotta wrap your head around it. Most of us think we only want crispy skins, but this is a mental issue that Americans have. The same that we have with uh there's a lot of things that we we can't we bread needs to be light and airy.
Pig skin needs to be crispy, apples need to be crunchy, wrong, wrong, and wrong, right? Anyway, uh Matt, good to have you here. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Uh was there another thing?
Oh, guess what? Guess who else was at uh Nastasia's pig uh party? Our greasy friend, our oleaginous buddy, Nick Coleman. We learned a lot about him that night. A little bit too much, way too much to share on the air.
Yes. Way too much to share in the air. But uh, in case you uh do do we still have a discount? Our Patreon people still get a discount at Grovenvine. I think that expired.
Yeah, well, we'll he's gonna come on and we'll hook it up because you guys uh need to go out and taste his uh new uh Coratina uh olive oil from Chile, March Harvest. It was del it's delicious, like green, grassy, and he busted out a magnum of it. You know what he does? It's kind of weird though. He makes a uh do you ever use his oil, Matt?
No, I haven't. You oh you gotta check it out. So Grove and Vine is his company. So what he does is he sells olive oil in like wine bladders. It's like his best deal is the olive oil in a wine bladder, and it comes in a wine box.
So this dude, he's an olive oil dude, right? So what does he do? He comes, he brings olive oil. Like I bring wine, he brings olive oil. He puts the box of olive oil on the picnic table like it's wine.
Yeah. And I guarantee you, people are like, and like take a sip of it because they you know what I mean? And he's like, I'm glad. That's good. Weirdo.
Guy's a weirdo. Uh like him. He's gonna come back on. Uh people enjoyed him the last time it was on. Also, coming up soon, we have uh Jorge Gaviera from uh who from uh Macienda, who is uh new MASA cookbook is out.
You have that at the Kitchen Arch and Letters? We don't have it yet, but we have a uh a lot on order. We're expecting it to do really well. We've been selling his uh little Nixtamall book that's the basis for this step forward, and we're really excited about that. I mean, that they're the best source of corn for sure, especially corn for nixtimalization.
You know, the uh one thing that you know, like uh I I have the book because he's coming on, right? So I have the book. And uh yeah, the the issue really for most people getting into this is the grinding. You know what I'm saying? But anyway, we'll deal with that more when when he's on.
It's the grinding. Like you can go on his website and you can get a $1,500 grinder, and then you're good for the rest of your life. But I hope you make a lot of masa. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Like a lot of masa. That's a commitment. Or you're rich. I'm not. Right.
Right. Right. Okay, fair. Um by the way, my classics in the field is uh what's going on with uh grain, grain, whole grain books coming out. We still got more milling and grain books coming out.
It's important because that's the section of my book I'm writing now. Um not much on the immediate horizon. Looking into the through the fall and into the winter season, I haven't seen much. So you're gonna have some fresh territory there. You're gonna be able to claim it.
People still buying uh Leonti's book? Yeah. Pretty steady. Yeah, nice. Yeah.
I mean, that's a that's a committed audience. It's not like, you know, the same person, the same number of people who come in looking for uh I'd like to get started making bread. But what do they buy now? They Reinhart people. Reinhardt is a good place for a lot of people to begin.
If they're which Reinhardt do you do? The apprentice, you go old, do you go with the newer stuff? I go with the apprentice. I go with the apprentice. I think it sets people up pretty well to uh discover what they might be interested in, and then they can go off and pursue narrower paths.
It's a nice looking bread on the cover, but the lady who baked it doesn't look too excited about it. No. Uh I I agree with that. She's uh I don't know how many times how long she was in that photo studio. But uh, because anytime I look at that book, I'm like, that's the picture where she looks the most psyched about bread.
Or maybe it's like she's supposed to look serious. Anytime someone takes a picture and they look overly serious, or they look I'm just like, aren't they aren't they supposed to make me think that like they like doing this? I don't know. I mean, look, she can feel how she likes about the bread, but it's she's like, here's the bread. It is it is a curious cho choice, but I, you know, the the content of the book always wins me over.
So I never met Reinhard. I have, yeah. He's uh he's a really knowledgeable, earnest, serious guy and who is uh a painstaking teacher. He's really careful about about the way he deals with people and with his students. Um he's um he's wholesome, you know and like all the best positive senses of that word.
Yeah, I just reread his uh the the 2007 The Whole Grains cookbook, you know, in advance of the section that I'm writing on using whole grains but self-ground. Uh I haven't fully finished his 2017 sprouted grains and whole grains book. Is that how's that one do? That one's less. That's a that's a much more specific targeted kind of thing.
And I think the Leonte book came along and claimed some of that territory. Yeah, well it's interesting because he's actually kind of moved around. So again, this is really in the weeds. I apologize, but Reinhardt's book in 2007 was a huge advocate of long uh pre-soaks of uh of the whole wheat, y m much of it un yeasted, basically letting it sit around. And um I don't know what I think about that.
I think it probably works. He he says in the introduction he had 350 people test the recipe because he sent out recipes to like just people on the internet and had them tested, which is a phenomenal idea. I wonder he didn't pay them, right? They just tested it because they liked him because he did. Yeah.
And uh I don't know, maybe maybe when my book gets closer I'll talk more about that. Um why why I think that may or may not be a good idea. I think most the big problem is most people's whole wheat flour sucks real bad. It's just not a good product. Like they're using uh they're using the wrong wheat to make uh good whole wheat bread.
You know the reason why spring wheat, uh you know, hard spring wheat, red spring wheat wasn't so popular back in the day, way back in the day in the 1850s and 1860s, is because they had no way to mill it properly, right? Uh it was only after the invention of the uh midlings purifier, which blew all of the bran out that they could get brand-free, relatively hard red spring wheat. And that became a miraculous bread bread flour, but no one really liked baking with it back when the brand was in it because it's just not that it tastes that great when it's got uh all the bran in it. Not a big fan. Anyway, that's just me.
And if you soak it for a long time, I think what he's doing, he thinks he it's all he he's coming from a perspective of ooh, ooh, you need to, you need to, you need to jack the sugar. So you need the amylase and you need the starch to break down, so the sugar to get crust development. Whole wheat, it already tastes like whole wheat. So unless it tastes bitter, all you're doing is slacking the dough out by having it go for a long period of time, which is why I think if he does the pre-pre-pre, he's pre-slacking it and then making the dough he wants. Anyway, long story.
Uh uh too much. All right. For you, Matt, let's go here. All right. Classics in the field question.
My sister-in-law is looking for a book that talks about all the cuts of meat. Now, Zach Zachary has been waiting for like a year for you to answer this question. So uh my sister-in-law is looking for a book. I'm sure this I'm sure she already owns it, right? That is about all the cuts of meat from as many animals as possible, at least pork and beef.
Don't give me one that doesn't have pork and beef. But I'm assuming also lamb? What else? Rabbits? Uh rabbit, probably not so much.
Well, I guess because they're well, because no one uses the inner sides of a rabbit, right? No one's using rabbit offal. Not to my knowledge. Cappy barra? Probably scarcer.
Yeah. Uh it should give characteristics of the cut, how it's best used, uh, like i.e. what kind of dishes and how best to cook it, trying to learn the things of butcher would know without becoming a butcher and how to be a better informed meat consumer. All right. So uh this was a great question because it reminded me of a book that's no longer available that I I found had a lot of utility when it was around.
It's a book called How to Cook Meat by Chris Schlesinger and John Willoughby. And it basically Schlesinger, the grilling fire guy? Yeah. The uh the Cambridge restaurant guy. Yeah.
Um it is organized by type of cut and and cooking method. So you're looking at like big cuts of beef that need to be slow roasted or small cuts of meat that need to be pan-seered. So it is actually talking to you about how where the meat is coming from on the animal, what its characteristics are, and what that tells you about the method that you should use. And it covers meat, I mean it covers beef, it covers pork, uh, it covers lamb, I know. I don't have a copy of it on hand at the store right now.
I went running around looking for one in the basement uh yesterday. But um is it collectible or normal? It's normal. I mean, it's easily findable for like less than 20 bucks online. Right.
Um and it's uh but it's a I think it's organization for me is the great appeal. The recipes are fine. I mean, I used it back in the day, um, and I'm not not trying to slam them at all, but I think the real insight there was the way that it approached meat, and it let you feel like I understand why why this cut is being cooked in this in this method. What about coming at it from the other angle? Just people who use a lot of different cuts of meat and offal, like Fergus Henderson's work.
Well, I mean everybody likes Fergus's books, but they're not systematic at all in their approach to awful. They they showcase its use, but they don't say, you've got a spleen. Now here's what you do with it. Here's how you I mean, his books don't don't get in there and do that. And um books on awful don't tend to stay in print.
The American public isn't as enthusiastic about them as they might be. So Chris Casantino did a great book, uh Anisa Hulu did a great book on awful, but they've both had relatively short lives in print. And um, even people who are uh have high profile associations with meats, we'll say a couple of famous New York butchers or butcher shops. Their um their approach is really about recipes and less about technique. So I think there's a book out there to be written by somebody who has the skill in the background to sort of say, you know, what is this piece of flesh you have in front of you?
What do you know about it? Is it what are the fibers like? What is its fat content? Um, and then what does that tell you about what you can do with it? Started almost like an acting coach.
What is this piece of flesh? Uh yeah, all right. Um Payne MJ, book question. Uh probably impossible to answer, but don't know if they have uh indication of pre-orders uh or normal customers can't see, etc. i.e.
does Kitchen Arts and Letters know things that we don't? Uh Albert Adria and uh David Gill have released a book called Candy, which is in Spanish. Uh do the folks at Kitchen Arts and Letters have any idea if there will be an English translation? So um specifically about candy, I suspect that that's not gonna happen. Um those big Spanish uh publishing projects, if they happen in English at this point, they're usually happening simultaneously at publication time.
Um and a lot of the Spanish publishers aren't undertaking that work themselves. Um people like Montagu's still doing that, or not? Montague does that, but Montague's not the publisher of of candy. I believe it's uh Planeta. Um Planeta almost never does simultaneous publication.
Yeah. American and English publishers are not for the most part undertaking to translate big books from Spain. Um and then the other thing really working against candy is that the restaurants that it's associated with all close during the pandemic. So there's not a lot of excitement on behalf of a publisher for uh a dessert book from uh restaurants that aren't around anyway. But it's in Spanish, not in Catalan.
I've only seen it in Spanish. It's in Spanish. All right, and is it good? Um The Spanish speakers like it? Yes, there's a lot of interesting material in there.
It's it's overpublished, it's comes in a box, and there's a volume with the recipes, and there's a volume with the photographs, and it's I think it's unnecessarily um fancy for people who want to take it and and use it. It's it's it feels more like a souvenir for people who are at the restaurant. Uh and therefore even less reason for somebody to undertake translating it now. So a bit bloated. Uh extravagant.
Ah, celebratory, but luxurious. Yeah, not practical. All right. Uh all right. This one, I know I know that you're not gonna like this question.
So I'm gonna give it to you anyway, and then you can say what you think about this kind of question and what may be a question you would like to answer that's similar. All right. Koto wants to know, Matt, what are your all-time favorite food or beverage books? Um I get asked this question a lot. Uh and you know, my personal preferences are so widely different from what else is out there in the world.
Um the book that I have run through four copies of in 37 years. Uh, is Cucina Fresca, the Viana Laplace and Evan Kleiman book that came out in 1985. It's a really practical uh Italian-ish cooking book. Everything's meant to be served cold at room temperature. So that's smart.
It's great for parties. Um give me the give me the title again. Cucina fresca. All right. Still in print.
It's been around. I have you know worn out all my copies. And a lot of times I open the book up, I flip through it, I close it, and I go into the kitchen and I know what to do with it's what's in the refrigerator. So what, like vial tonato, that kind of stuff? That kind of stuff, yeah.
Um and I actually like that stuff. You like that stuff? I do. Yeah. I do.
It's I think it's great to have it on a cold day or a hot day. Um there's a salad in there. I mean, it's not really super traditional Italian. If there's a definite California spin on it, because that's where they were. Uh so Buggiali would have hated it.
Buggiali would have hated it, yeah. Yeah. Probably. But you know, Pugiali. Giuliano Buggiali.
He was uh quite a character and a brilliant man, but somewhat narrow in his uh approach to things. He always had a smile on his face when he insulted you, at least in my case. He never insulted me with a scowl. It was always with a smile. Well, you uh you got more attention from him than I did, so um so that Cucina Fresca to own and use, and then I think I've talked about this on on the show before for a reading book, uh a book called The Oysters of Loch Maria Kerr.
Uh yeah uh by Eleanor Clark, 1962 National Book Award winner. Um brilliant piece of writing about um an oystering village in France. It's partly a natural history, it's also a profile of a vanishing way of life. Um I've never had a true plate oyster, never had one, never had a real French, like old school oyster. Weird, right?
Well, people don't people don't like them typically, right? People who are grow used to our oysters here. There's a there is a difference. Yeah. I um I have to say I um I'm not even that much of an oyster fan.
I just like the writing in this book. John, what about you? You a Bellon guy? Are you are you French oyster in and out your face? Are you uh I like them, but it took me a little while to get to like them.
Yeah. What's your ultimate oyster? Well fleet. Ah, it's what's up, East Coast. Yeah.
Delicious. Yeah. I okay. I like I love I like a Well Fleet, yeah. Yeah.
You know what I don't like that everybody likes? I don't like my oysters to taste like watermelon and cucumbers. So or melon and cucumbers. So you know which oysters I don't like. They're the prettiest oysters.
Island Creek. No, the Kumamoto. I'm not a Kumamoto guy. I don't like Kumamoto. I mean, they're fine.
Yeah. They're fine. But they're not why you eat oysters. They're not why I eat oysters. Go east coast, baby.
Yeah. East Coast. And you know, might as well be the Cape if you're gonna do anything. Although I like I like a lot of East Coast oysters, right? Um anyway.
Uh interesting story about room temperature. Um, are you familiar with the pseudo Italian uh owned by a uh large company restaurant, Carmines? It does family style in the upper west side? I I am aware of them, yeah. Yeah.
So in nineteen ninety uh six, right? I was at Columbia grad school with my wife, and we went out to Carmines with Miley Carpenter, who, you know, now is big up in Hearst Publishing, but started the Food Network magazine, among other things. And the server comes and she says, We're serving the pasta with a room temperature sauce. And we were all like, that's the worst sounding thing I've ever heard. It's coming out room temperature.
The thing is, like, even if that's the actual temperature you want to serve it, you gotta come up with something better. Like, oh, what are you too lazy to either make it cold or hot? Or at least cut like there's gotta be a good word for room temperature sauce that doesn't make me like puke in my in my mouth a little bit. She's like room temperature sauce, we're all like right? Stas, you hate that, right?
Yeah, it's gross. Yeah. Ambient. Ambient. It sounds like ambient.
I don't know. Someone out there come up with an idea, let me know. All right. Patrick Chocone writes in, is Waverly Roots food an informal dictionary to be relied on for factual information, or should the information be treated as semi-mythological? And are there any other similar books to recommend with similar breadth of content and writing style?
It is fun to read, Root. Absolutely. He is an amazing storyteller. But he was the kind of guy that if you know, you went out drinking with him and you told him a great story about Kumamoto oysters. He would write that down and he would tell it to everybody else because he loved stories.
But he would never go out and check. Uh he was not a researcher. He was a gatherer of information. Uh so you have to keep that in mind. And keep in mind also that this was 1980.
So that's when that came out right before he died? Yeah. Yeah, it was very late. And um so food scholarship was very much an evolving field at that point. A lot of people didn't believe it should be taken seriously as a whole field of endeavor.
Right. And so I mean, Root was helping that along in some ways, but he wasn't investigating things. Right. But on the scale of liars, right? And I don't mean that in a negative way, or as Stas likes it when I say, I don't mean this in a pejorative way.
Yeah, it's a non-English speaker. Yeah, yeah. It was it was uh it's it wasn't a good terminology to use to someone who's not a native English speaker. Anyway, so uh like to me the the the highest culinary liar is George Herter from the Bulls Bull Cook book, yeah, or whatever that whatever the series is called. Every single thing the man says is fundamentally fabrication and cang tankerous, often offensive.
Great read. You know what I mean? It's hilarious. Yeah, he's the biggest liar. I mean, I don't know whether I can trust his information on how to uh stick my finger in a turtle's butt and get its head to poke out so I can chop it off.
I've never tested this. You know, the other technique for taking a turtle's head off is to put out a stick and the turtle will bite it, and then you can chop the turtle's head off, or his suggestions on how to survive a hydrogen bombing attack. I don't know if these are valid, but I know that almost every single food history that he gives is like way off base. You you don't trust a man who claims to have Chateaubriand's recipe for Chateaubriand. Yeah.
But the books are very interesting and they're not even collectible yet, right? They're still cheap. They're still fairly easy to find. I mean, he uh he self-published most of them and he uh he was pretty generous, I think, about seeding the world with them. So uh yeah, you just I mean you you almost sort of have to assume that whatever he tells you is absolutely the opposite of true.
Yeah. Uh some of the recipes work. I've tried some of them. Yeah, I've never done that. Somehow I was never called.
Yeah. But so so on the level of like that's the biggest liar, right? Uh, on down to just kind of your everyday, you know, most old cookbooks provide some sort of false histories of how things happen, but they're kind of, you know, middle of the road. Like root seems kind of in between those two, right? What like where would you where would you put it in terms of the lie scale?
Not the lie scale, the the tall story stale scale. I I would always, always seek to verify what I read in root. Um like I said, he he he it was for him, it was always about the story. It was, you know, the question asks, is it mythology? And and and I think in that sense of uh as he was looking for details that confirmed what he thought he knew about the character of a place.
I mean, it's true in his food of Italy and it's true in his food of France. He was trying to provide color and context um and in doing so in a way that made sense with everything else that he knew. Telling the truth of lies. Or telling telling things that he thought ought to be true. Right.
When he heard them. He's like, oh yeah, that fits. So I'm gonna tell that story. Uh so I mean, you can go out and find comprehensive reference works that I have think have more authority. I mean, the Oxford Companion to Food, uh that Alan Davidson edited, uh, I think is a much stronger resource.
Uh it What about what about his fish books? They have lots of good stories. I don't really think of them as a story. Like where they're from, because he went all over the world and collected information on all these fishes. Yeah, I think that's that's most true of the Southeast Asian book.
Yeah. I guess maybe that's the only one I have. Uh because that was, you know, he was he started writing that that when he was a British consular in Laos. Um you don't think that's a good read? I think it's a good read for a book on fish.
I have to go back and look. It's been a while. I I don't often have to consult it. So uh so what what should uh what should Patrick look for? If if they like Root, what should they look for?
Where should they go? So that reading quality uh is is hard to match, honestly. I mean let's be honest. There's a vast amount of information in that book. And if you go out and research it all, it's not gonna leave you time to write about it in the same way.
I mean, books like The Oxford Companion are researched and compiled by a bunch of different people, each of them writing within an area of specialization. But they're not chosen because they're necessarily great writers. So there is a a kind of dryness there. And I I don't know where there's a a point on the balance scale that says really charming to read, but comprehensive. Uh what about uh that guy uh what Rayman Raymond uh Olivet, right?
What's his name? Ran who wrote the that book on cooking. What was his name, Jean? Remember? We got his book?
French guy. Oh. Raymond Olivet. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, not Olivier, Olivier.
Olive. Yeah. That's a good read. You read that one? Good.
Oh no, wow. I'll have to go back and look at it for that quote. Good reader. Good, good reading. Yeah.
Enjoyable. Even in translation. Is it um I have to try to remember it's but it's primarily about French. It doesn't extend beyond. No, no, no, no.
It's about not just French cuisine, but like his place in French cuisine. But at this point, that's an historical document. Yeah. Because, you know, he was big, I think, you know, he was a generation or two after Escoffier, but still like, you know, from that, you know, that era was still alive in his mind. You know, I think he I think he was most big at right after World War II, I want to say.
Um, but you know, that's an interesting period of French cooking when France was still considered on top of the world. They were, yeah, they were in a great position. They were in kind of a stall that people like Chappelle would come along and help get things started again. But there were people like Olivet who who were trying not to be self-satisfied and stuck in doing it this way because that is the way we have always done it. Um I think he uh he sort of he's on that.
He's sort of slightly froze post Fernand Point and uh yeah. I uh again, I wasn't expecting to talk about it. I didn't go look at the dates all that, but he is an old school French curmudgeon, which I appreciate. You know what I mean? He also read a couple of really charming books for kids.
Really? Yeah. Oh, yeah, didn't his daughter did something in the arts, I think. I can't remember. Look, I shouldn't say anything unless I look it up beforehand because like, you know, the memory goes goes out.
Memory goes, memory leaves you. Uh Warren Johnston, our friend with uh oh wait, yeah. Our friend, he is the one who gave us the the great Canadian cheesies. Right, Quinn, you like the cheesies. He's muted, but he does like the cheeses.
Oh yeah. Yeah. Pro cheesy, right? Very. Yeah.
If we ever get more, Matt, I'll see if you can get some tea. Although, like they'll do, you know, like you probably don't allow Cheetos anywhere near your uh bookstore because they're like a death, like uh death to the books. They do staining they do leave prints, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, Warren writes, I'm working on some uh high alcohol, 80% uh by volume infusions for blending, uh making a vermouth product and trying to find the right ratio for some spices and barks.
I haven't found much solid writing about the best best practices for this. Do any books slash authors come to mind for this kind of thing, specifically ingredients, ingredients like Angelica, Oris, Coriander, Gentian, Casia, and Cardamom? Uh no. Um What about that book you recommended for me that the other guy bought out from underneath me? Remind me which book I which of the many books I sold out of the book.
The Italian the Italian Oh the Italian liqueurs? Yeah. So that's a book that has um uh lots of single examples of recipes that the author collected from different practitioners, but there is no statement of principles. Right. So he uh this is a slow food originated project.
He traveled around Italy collecting recipes from grandmothers. Uh so it's that sounds cool to me. It's a terrific repository, but is not systematic in its presentation of of anything. You could sit down and perhaps with some nice spreadsheets attempt to make some extrapolations. I know Warney is that kind of guy.
What's the name of that book? Italian liqueurs. All right. And do you remember the author's name? I can't remember.
First name is Renato. That's probably all you need. It's on our website. It's blue. Yeah.
Yeah. That I remember. I remember not buying it because I still and I still haven't finished my damn book, Matt. Well, and I still don't own that other book. Well, I won't say anybody was paying me not to sell you that book until you finished yours.
All right. All right. There are people who feel that way. I'm not saying I'm one of them. Yeah, yeah.
You're like, yeah, let me look. One book more or less. What does it matter? Mark Kay writes in, I'm looking for some information on mango varieties that describe locations where they grow, seasons when ripe, uh, and their taste. I am not interested, repeat, not interested in recipes.
Uh and Mango by uh Jen um Karetnik is mostly recipes and therefore not helpful for him. He's not saying it's not a good book, he's just saying not helpful. Right. Um, so I I did take him some time to look around about this. We have a book in the store called The Mango, uh, edited by a guy named Richard Litz, who is uh on the faculty of uh the Center for Tropical Agriculture at the University of Florida.
Uh it describes about 60 different cultivars from around the world. Um it sometimes discusses the taste, but it's not systematic in that way. Um it talks about their range, but not much beyond which countries they're coming from. I nothing I could find talked about seasonality, and I think because it probably varies so much from uh from location to location and climate. Right.
Um it might be the kind of thing where uh an ag school library might have better resources. But I think there are so many varieties of mangoes planted in so many places that you're really gonna want to work with somebody who um who's a horticulturist. Right. Well, um the US's mangoes are the our germ plasm for them is stored uh at the Fairchild in South Dade. And that's where the the USDA G R I N like germplasm is stored.
And on the USDA GRN GRN website, there they have it's their searching isn't actually as good as it used to be, but on their website is an exhaustive list of all of the hundreds and hundreds. I don't know if it's thousands, that's why I'm saying hundreds of hundreds, but it could be thousands for all I know, of mango cultivars they have with a story of how they were sessioned and where they originally came from, and some notes on the flavor and fibrousness uh of them. The former head of that program at the Fairchild uh was named uh Richard Campbell. Nastasi went and I went with Harold McGee down there and had a very disappointing rain-filled trip where they didn't let us eat all the mangoes that they had sworn on a stack of Bibles that are gonna let us eat. Remember that, Stas?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was fun is this. So it I forget her name, but the lady who was like at the center that day, they were getting ready for their yearly mango festival.
And listen, once the mangoes drop on the ground, then they're overripe. Okay? So the mangoes drop on the ground, they're overripe. The lady goes, You can't pick mangoes off the tree. Remember this, Stas?
Yes. And then so we're like, fine. So we pick them, the ones that look like they just fell. And then we're sitting there, Harold and Nastasi and I, and we're taking tasting notes. Her friend Claire is watching my my kids outside.
They're running around in the rain getting soaked, right? So we're taking tasting notes, and the lady's like, your tasting notes are inaccurate because you're eating overripe mangoes. If I could have pushed a button, if she had a shock collar on, she would have gotten zapped so hard. You know what I mean? But uh Richard Campbell has since left.
He left in 2017, I think he left the Fairchild. But when he was there, along with uh uh Norris Ledesma, who's another great researcher in mangoes, they traveled the world tasting mangoes, taking the seeds back and growing them. Uh Tropical Mangoes growing the world's most delicious fruit. I think I don't own a copy of it, and I looked it up on the web before I came, and it's in the 250 dollar range. So I would um interlibrary loan it.
The bookstore at the spice uh fruit and spice park in uh South Dade, it has books that they bought when they were new, and they don't change the prices based on their value, and nobody buys them. And so I actually bought my, you know, the Fruits of Brazil, that blue book. Oh, yeah. I bought it from them for, you know, whatever its original cover price was, not the infinity that people charge for it now. Um so I would look, it's actually interesting.
Botanical places sometimes buy things right when they're printed and then never sell them. Like I found some cool stuff at the New York Botanical Garden gift shop. Uh that's a great shop. Yeah. Oh, I love yeah, yeah, yeah, great shop.
Anyway, so uh look at look at the uh ARS-G-R-I-N.gov website for mangoes. Uh, and you know, get there. And that's actually when we went to the um Geneva Agricultural Extension for Apples. I printed out all of the apple varieties and pictures with tasting notes and when they were, you know, uh from the USDA G R N website. So it's not easy to use, but it is useful.
Anyway. Uh Dr. Killfork. What do you have against forks, Doctor? What do you have?
Because that can't be a real name, right? I would suspect it's not. Yeah. Uh it would be cool. Like what Stas, what specialty do you think a Dr.
Killfork would would uh be in? I don't know. Oh no. Yeah. Gastroenterologist.
Maybe, right? Yeah. Uh not exactly a question. Okay, you ready for this? Not exactly a question.
I can't stand Fiden books. Something about the layout they use for recipes makes me irrationally upset. Am I missing something? Does anyone prefer this layout? So I understand uh being irrationally upset.
Uh I um I have to give a lot of props to Fiden for their coverage and their willingness to publish people who are being overlooked by just about anybody else. But uh formatting is is uh I think for them often a reflexive choice based on their history as an art pup book publisher, and they have uh a design aesthetic and a style that arises from that and that's assumes that having all the photographs of the plated food at the front and the recipes at the back is sort of like having you know photographs of all the botticelli pieces in the world and then scholarly notes at the back. I don't like that either though. Uh well I I can certainly understand that. I find it frustrating.
It may help them save on paper costs. I mean, Fiden often works in relatively small print runs, so they're trying to keep their costs down. But it makes me nuts. Um as a user of a book. Uh I certainly understand that frustration because you're like, what is that thing right there?
Why what you know, why is it what is that? Why is it that color? Why does it have that texture? And obviously, reading the recipe should give you a lot of clues to that, but if you're flipping back and forth, it's it's frustrating. Yeah.
Um I have lots of conversations with lots of publishers about the way they they publish things, and my conversations with Fiden about about format are some of my longest running. Speaking of layout problems, about 18 or 19 years ago, uh Kitchen Arts and Letters sold me a book called Pigs of the World, Pig Breeds of the World. Is has anyone done a better version of that? Because all the pictures there, you have to line up the picture with uh an outline of the pig and then take the number of the pig and go down to see what the pig was. Is that have they ever redone that?
Uh I have not seen anything, anything more like that. Yale did a book um on endangered breeds. Um that I think is better formatted, but it's not solely pigs. Yeah. Remember that book?
Pigs of the world. Wasn't it called Pig Pig Varieties of the World? There was only one book on it. You had it, I bought it. I'm I'm remembering actually a couple of different books.
This was When I was doing the country ham research, and I came in and I bought everything that was available on Country Ham and Curing. Is this a small square paperback? Uh it was hard. No, it was hard, and it was about yay. Uh and it was not, yeah.
I'll I'll find it again. I did buy it at Kitchen Arsenal Letters, though. Yeah, that I remember. Uh speaking of that, uh Peter Pag writes in, I should very much like to ask Matt if there's a definitive work on the production of country ham, both in historical perspective, but also and more importantly, uh technical guide to the production of the ham. So um two different questions there, and in a lot of cases, uh sort of speaking to two different sets of author qualifications.
So um you probably remember Gene Voltz's book on on the on country ham, which I think is a reasonable historical spin. It's late 90s, right? Late 90s. If you're looking at American country ham, if you're thinking about country ham as a broader sense of that particular style uh of ham making, it's you know, but nobody was back then. No.
I mean, she sort of briefly connects the dots and says I mean to 2004, the whole reason we you know what the whole first thing at the Museum of Food and Drink was basically drawing the exact parallel between European hams and American country hams. Yeah, she does it like a paragraph in that book. Yeah. Um but most of the rest of the book is about using country ham. It doesn't really have any serious approach to to production.
Um if I were to sit down and start trying to make country ham myself, there's a book called Home Production of Quality Meat and Sausages by Adam and Stanley Mariansky, which is a 700-page uh meat geek guide, very technical, um, that I think has the most uh specific information on uh on what to do in making a country ham. It has a little sidebar interview with Alan Benton. Um the and it talks about When was that from? Like 2010. Yeah.
2010. Um, you know, but if you're hoping to find a 700 page book devoted to country Ham making, I don't know it. I mean, I think such a book could be written, but um Do you guys have uh Norman Marriott's book? I don't think so. So the Ultimate Guide to Country Ham came out relatively, I'm gonna want to say in the early, early, early 2000s.
So it was before 2005 or six. Norman Marriott, even at that time was emeritus at Virginia Tech in their ag department. And he was uh he was a meat safety expert. So he wrote a book on country ham, someone else was in it, in which he goes through the entire cure process. He is focused on home curing, so it's not the same.
I don't know whether Peter wants to do mass curing. So, like if you're mass curing, you know, they're putting the salt down and they're typically laying hams in salt like one after the other, whereas a place like Finchville, strangely, does bag cures where you're putting the same amount of s a certain amount of salt in a bag and carrying it in a bag. And a memory serves because I I couldn't find it this morning when I look for it, but um the ultimate guide to country ham, Marriott's book uh advocates a bag cure. Um it, you know, he is a part of you know what American Country Ham was at, you know, at that point in time. So before, you know, the revolution in in pig breeds that has you know gone through, I think people who were pushing that early were um Sam Edwards from Edwards uh Country Ham, or uh, you know, then later uh Nancy Mahaffey at Newsom's, you know, who at that time were both of them making some of the best country hams uh in the country.
Uh but you could take a look at that. Um the other thing is, is that uh on history of specific producers, uh, you know, like I say, the very first thing that we ever did at the museum was on Country Ham somewhere. Those documents aren't linkable off of the on the cooking issues blog is some of it, and you can find some of that from 04, although it wasn't posted on the blog until 07. And I did write an article with a lot of uh references to go to and some history of individual producers for food arts in I want to say 2005. Uh but yeah, there needed to be more worked on it, you know?
It's I that's true of so many different fields uh in which the There's so much more room for depth. Yeah. Uh and you don't really realize how much isn't there until you start looking for it. I mean, before I went to the French Culinary Institute, I was the country ham guy. Like I went and spoke to the you know, Country Ham Producers Association, and like, you know, I was uh Dave Chang's ham consultant when he opened Som and you know, even you know brought some with back.
Remember Bar American when Bobby Flay opened that? Oh yeah. Yeah. I brought I brought some hams over for him to test out because I was a early, early advocate for slicing it, um, not cooking it and slicing it and serving it like you would a European ham. So I'm glad to say people do that uh because it's delicious.
Uh health inspector Deck wants to know, Matt, regarding your business, do you ever have a conflict between a brain choice and a heart choice? And what would that mean in your case? Uh well, I mean, I think the examples that came to me is like, you know, am I gonna carry this book that I find is unoriginal and uh driven by uh sort of social media marketing rather than or you know serious content. Um I generally decide to do it because of the amount of time I could otherwise spend telling people, I'm sorry, no, we don't have that. I'm sorry, no, we don't have that.
Um so I'm not gonna name names here as much as I sometimes tempted to, but I mean publishing is a business that succeeds financially on the basis of mass sales of a few books that uh generate a lot of money for everybody involved, and then it allows other smaller, uh more niche things to be published with a chance to be profitable, but it all depends on some things really taking off. So some of the things that really take off are not important to me, and there are some things that we don't carry. Like if some famous television medical show person who might be like running for government office, say were to write a cookbook, um, I would find that pretty um uninteresting uh or somewhere maybe closer to odious. Yeah. Uh and I probably would not carry that.
Well, here's okay, let me uh let me follow on this. So one, I never assumed that you guys carrying a book included a tacit endorsement because I would always just ask you what you thought of a book. And by the way, this is true. If you go into Kitchen Arts and Letters and ask their opinion of a book, they will give you their honest opinion. Okay.
That's just a true story. So I never assumed that the book's physical presence in the store was a tacit endorsement of the book. But hearing you say that, in a way, it kind of is. And so now I'm like, well, if somebody's actually harming food and/or America andor they're evil, what happens to the books? Like, like, is that decision and is and is that a different decision now than it would have been, let's say, 10 years ago.
Um we do ask a lot of questions like that, and we don't always have easy, clear answers to them. I uh we don't, and this is a something that Nock Waxman put in place and that I've been happy to run with, we don't carry books that make like medical claims that aren't immediately verified. So if somebody comes in and says, is this book gluten-free? Sure, I can open the book and look at the recipes and say, Oh, yeah, there are there is no gluten in these ingredients. Um somebody says, is this going to cure my arthritis?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't, you know, I can't even come close to verifying that. And I just don't want to be um involved in doing that. So uh we do stay away from things like that for the sheer logistical uh simplicity. Um I'm not coming to Kitchen Arts and Letters for my heart health diet book.
If, you know, like we'll keep a couple of things around that like if your doctor tells you you need to follow the Dash diet, which is something that happens to a lot of people who are uh experiencing heart problems. They're gonna follow the recipe, they're gonna follow that diet, so they might as well have a book that helps them follow that diet. Right. So we'll have a few things like that. It's not gonna be something where we go really deep.
Uh, but if it's there's somebody who's out there saying, you know, uh if you stir everything counterclockwise, it acidifies your food and denatures the bad proteins in your brain that give you mad cow disease. That's not true. I don't think so. No, no verification. But I mean, there are books out there that that that make these sort of grand assertions, and and I just I don't really want anything to do with them.
Um they're not really about food when it comes down to it, they're about some sort of mystical solve my problem without my doing any work kind of approach to to lifestyle. And how how many of the dump meal series do you have at Kitchen Arts and Letters? Dump Mule? Yeah, yeah. Um none.
No, none of the dump meals, huh? No, sorry, no dump meals. Maybe uh did we ever buy them, Stas? We bought them for your sister, right? She bought one, yeah.
For and did she did she keep it? We didn't even want it back, right? I think she kept it. Remember, she hung up on you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Well, I didn't find that she was giving us the data we necessarily needed to have a thorough review of the dump meal. Yeah. Maybe we should get some copies of the dump meal series. It's like the boxcar kids, but dump meals, and uh send them off to Kitchen Arts and Letters and get get Matt's considered opinion on the dump meal.
Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, all right, all right. Well, again.
I thought you were nice people. Huh. You don't have to say anything negative. You know, you know, uh look, here's the thing, right? There is a place for just throwing everything into a pot and having it go.
They I just can't believe that people I just the word dump and meal together. Understood. Yeah, it just doesn't. It says it's also in the wrong order. It's nothing, it's like it's no, it's not yeah, it's just not the way, not the way it uh it should work.
I do have a piece of advice. Uh my friend Phil rented a car to come out. Did he tell you this? No, Phil Bravo. Yeah, and he uh aka the Grinch.
For those of you that know he's the guy who can sing the Grinch with a super low voice. And he always goes online and finds those like corporate codes that you can put in so that the car becomes half the price for the rental. Right. So he did one for the like he'd use the corporate code for the Bank of Idaho. Okay.
And he got to the Avis or whatever, and they're like, we need to see like a contract or your ID for the Bank of Idaho. And instead of just being like, all right, fine, I'll just pay the whatever, he went to uh Staples, drew up a contract for the Bank of Idaho. Oh my God. Brought it back. Isn't that insane?
PS. PS. PS. Phil Bravo. We can find him somewhere on one of the things like you know, Quinn, you you you're good at this.
We'll find some Phil Bravo. Man has a golden voice. Instead of saving a nickel on his Avis, why doesn't he become more of a voice actor? I think it's a principal thing at at that point, you know? But I it's a principle?
I have to rip them off. I have to get something I'm not entitled to. It's the principle of it. But don't do it because I've tried doing it. Phil, have you even been to Idaho?
No, it's the principle of it. Makes no sense. Crazy. Makes no makes no sense. Uh speaking of it's the principle.
Feel free to not answer this. What about uh what about people who write books and turns out they're evil? There are a lot of people out there who are evil and write books. Um there are people out there who are evil whose evilness isn't necessarily known. So my approach to books is um, what does the book do?
Right. Um if somebody is evil in the way that they say treat the staff in their restaurant and they write a book on staff management, phooey. Right. Uh if they're evil to their staff in their restaurant and they write a book on, you know, uh chocolate milkshakes, um, then uh, you know, I don't see necessarily that there's a problem with it. But if there are 17 other books on chocolate milkshakes, am I more likely to, you know, order the book by somebody who really is a great chocolate milkshake?
Are there any books on chocolate milkshakes? Not at the moment, no. Are there any books on milkshakes that uh are about pie, pie, pie sliced milkshakes? Not to my knowledge. You know, I've never had one of those.
Have you ever had one? No. Uh I forget exactly where in the country it is, but they're like, you make you order a milkshake and they're like, what kind of pie you want and that? And then they throw a slice of pie into the blender, but I forget where exactly it is. That's just wrong.
Because I think the point of pie is to have great crust with a little bit of fruit in it. And if you mix it in on the ice cream now, it's it's it's I think you're you've defeated the point of the pie. Interesting. Uh do you like uh Sicilian starch-based uh gelato? I don't think I've had any.
What about you, Quinn? You like that starch based stuff? Uh I've never had it or made it, really. Starch it up, people. Let's get some starch into our ice cream and then we'll we'll come back and we'll talk.
Uh David Steinberg, I love Buddhist Chinese restaurants and very interested in learning how to prepare uh Satan like they do. Uh the EI, not A T, not Satan, the the you know, dark lord. But uh okay. Mine never tastes as good. Uh do you know any cookbooks that teach this?
Uh on another plane, do you think these restaurants make their own Satan or do you think it is purchased in bulk from who knows where and simply prepared in the restaurant? We still have two minutes. Don't worry when it comes on. Don't know any um any sort of great Satan equivalents of like the the William Shirtliff books on tofu and Miso. I mean it would be great if there were.
Well, is he not a weak guy? He's yeah, he's definitely a soy guy. Um so I I haven't seen any sort of great magisterial work on on Saitan. Um whether, you know how Chinese restaurants operate and get their Setana is uh outside the scope of my uh my experience and all. Old, uh interestingly old school uh books uh from like the home economics golden age and the baking professional baking golden age, you know, Jago and Jago, Jago, the the bread making goose.
A lot of these early books go through the preparation of gluten as a scientific exercise in rather interesting ways, talking about different flowers to use to get the gluten, how to wash it, experiments to do things to do with the starch. And there was somebody recently who did a big series of blog posts on preparing their own, but I can't remember who she was, the Satan, and then using the starch afterwards as as uh as it comes out, but I'll try to remember for next time. Um all right, Kevin Brogel, how about the Proto Julia Child uh um Diane Lucas and the Gourmet Cooking School cookbook? How about it? Um solid book, but I mean I think what happened with Mastering Art of French Cooking when it came along was that it it sort of uh completely took the writing about French cooking instruction to another level.
Uh Dione Lucas, you know, she went to the Courton Blue. She was the first female graduate of that school. Uh child went there later. Um but it's a good book, but I don't know that there's any particular reason to pursue those books except as historical artifacts. All right.
And Jeremy Beals wanted to know if there's any Italian oil-style Calabrian pickle books you didn't know any, right? I I went around looking for that. I couldn't find any now. All right. And last, on the way out in five seconds, and we thank you for coming on.
What is the holy grail of cookbooks? I saw that question. Um I don't know what the answer to that is because it's so uh so it depends on who's looking. No one holy grail. That's the thing about the holy grail.
There's only one. Yeah, that's that's what makes it impossible to answer that question. I mean, uh uh right now there are lots of people who will froth at the mouth over copies of uh Pascal Borbeau's Estrance, which is hard to find and expensive. Um but there are gonna be other people who it leaves cold, and uh holy grail should like be meaningful to everybody who's concerned, and I can't I can't name that book. All right, well, for Neil's sake, and I know we're running late.
What's the most expensive cookbook Kitchen Arts and Letters has ever sold, even if you don't think it's worth the money necessarily? Uh we have a uh copy of the Physiology of Taste that was illustrated by Wayne Tebow, uh the who just passed away last year. Beautiful illustrations. It was a copy of the Fisher translation. Uh 200 copies made by Orion Press of San Francisco in the early 90s.
Um they come with Tebow lithographs bound inside. Uh what'll that what a cop what'll a copy of that run you? About 12 and a half thousand dollars. Ooh, all right. That's some money.
That's some real money in a cookbook. How about that, Neil? Go look for that one. Cooking issues.
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