Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Earlder host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from the heart of Manhattan, Rockefeller Center, New Stan Studios, New York City. How you doing? Uh got Stas, uh the Hammer Loop as as usual. Everything good?
Yes. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Nice. Got uh John here as well, back from vacation.
Where were you, John? Dominican Republic. Oh no. Well, we'll talk about that in one second. We got Joe rocking the panels here.
Hey, how are you doing? Doing well. Doing well, thank you. Busy full house. Oh, yeah, yeah.
And then uh in Vancouver Island, we have, of course, Quinn. How you doing, Quinn? Please say you're there. Quinn's got this magic internet connection that there's one IP address, because he has to Skype in, all right? He has to Skype in.
And there's one magic IP address. He can never call without dropping, even though he has like the fancy microphone and everything, and it happens to be our studio. So we work on it week to week. We'll see what happens. And uh in the we'll work on it, people.
We do the best we can. Uh and we have uh in California, we got Jackie Molecules. How you doing? I'm great. Uh overcast day in LA, which is like your version of a nice day on the East Coast.
I mean well, no, that's my version of a nice day in LA. I mean, can I go there now and experience LA in a way that I would like it without that evil sun beating on me like like Satan melting me on purpose? I mean, I mean, if if I could make it overcast in LA 100% of the time, I would tell Booker, I I don't know, I would knock him out like Mr. T, put him on an airplane. Remember Mr.
T from A Team? Put him on an air uh airplane and take him out there. He'd be like, This isn't New York. I'm like, says who? Says who?
Says who? It's not New York. Look, it's overcast. And then like that'll be it. Be over.
So uh Jack, I have a new idea. I'm gonna introduce the guests right away and then we can shoot the breeze. What do you think? In general. That way they can shoot the breeze with that.
You like that? All right, well, great idea. All right. Well, today's special guest is Michael Disconus. Uh, I've known you since I don't know, like no, 12 years or something like that, ever since uh back in the French culinary days.
How you doing? I'm well. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So uh for those of you that I don't know, they they don't know.
Uh for years, Michael was the pastry chef. I met him when he was a pastry chef at La Bernard End, which is, you know, of course, well known uh depending on how many stars you give, three or four star restaurant here in New York, known for fish. Fish. They do they do fish. Uh and uh it's the most famous fish restaurant in New York, anyway.
Uh and then after that went to uh the Institute of Culinary Education, where I didn't talk to him for a while because of course they were our mortal enemies back when I was at the FCI. But of course, you know, in the in the Highlander battle of uh freaking, you know, there can be only one in the New York, FCI lost and ICE won. So there is no more FCI and ICE bought uh FCI. That was a slap in in our faces. But what do you what do you what do you think about that?
Uh you know, I mean I I was actually kind of sad to hear it, you know, because it was a great space. Um, I mean, we all love Dorothy. Um, but yeah, I mean, time marches on, I guess. Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of like you're like that Sparta dude who just like kind of kicks us into that pit.
I mean, to be honest. You're like, I I pity you. Boom. To be honest, I I think most of the faculty now are all the the holdovers from FCI. I know you have a lot of good people there.
You have like, well, hold on. So, like, we didn't shoot the breeze, so now we have to go back and shoot the breeze before we get into it. So, call if you're listening live on Patreon, calling your questions to 917-410-1507. That's nine one seven four one oh fifteen oh seven. Call us with all of your pastry or bean to bar, or having worked in several cities in the United States, kind of a situation, or what it's like to work at a three-star Michelin restaurant or four New York Times, depending on what you care more about, whether you like the what was that guy's name?
The the Michelin man, what's in Billimbo, Bim B Bibimbop? What's his name? Bill Bil Bim Bibendum. Bibendem. What the hell does that mean, John?
I don't know. It sounds Latin. Sounds fancy. Be been be bendum. I say it in French, though.
Does it sound better in French? Bibendum? Not real. No, no. It's just as it's just as Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And who has white tires anyway? It's true. Yeah, nobody.
Nobody. I mean, maybe even way back in the white walls. White wall tires. Yes. White tires.
What is this? My BMX bike from 1980 freaking two? Come on, guys. So now we're gonna shoot the breeze, Michael. That's how this works.
Uh so uh how was the DR? I'd never been. Oh, it was very nice. Yeah, great, great weather. Uh Punta Cana.
Yeah. Right. Yeah, it was it was good. I don't know. It was my girlfriend's birthday.
So we went to this all-inclusive resort down there, and it was my first time doing that. It was very nice. Ooh, all inclusive makes me nervous because I don't know how the quality of the food's gonna be because great. Yeah. But it's all you can eat.
So get a little sampling at the buffet, all you can drink if you're into that. So like when you say all you can eat, like is it like uh put it on a level I can understand in America, the where the bottom level, no offense, is gonna be golden corral, and like the top level because I've never been to a buffet in in Vegas. Oh yeah, the the the Caesars Palace buffet is pretty excellent. I've never been to it, but like a like a Cheriscaria kind of a place. So like in that kind of range, where are you?
Probably in the middle. So like lower than a Cheriscaria, but or lower than than Vegas. I don't know. Again, I've never been to the biggest. Vegas is really good.
I'll I'll say I enjoyed that. A lot. I had nine plates of food when I was there, it was quite good. So above Golden Corral, though. Yes, definitely.
Did they have a poorly run soft serve machine with really crystally bad base coming out of it? Because that's what I remember from Golden Corps. I ate a lot of it though. They had really bad uh hibachi. Bad hibachi.
Yeah. Everything was viciously overcooked, and they didn't even do the onion volcano. Which is very disappointing. Yeah. Well, just you know, I've never had an onion volcano.
Can you describe the onion volcano? I mean it's nothing to really eat. It's more just uh for the show, but I don't know. They kind of like take a thick slice of onion and stack them one on top of each other so it looks like a volcano, and then they fill it with a little sake or mirror and something like that and set it on fire and smoke comes rushing out and then a little flame and then it just sort of pitters out. That doesn't sound so delicious though.
No, it's again for for visuals. But hibachi is about the show. Okay. Mostly. Don't forget about the beating heart, John.
Oh, the beating heart. What's the beating heart? The fried rice that they shape into a heart. And what do they do, Jack? They put the spatulas under and kind of like tap it up and down so it looks like a beating heart?
Yeah. Very ridiculous. I do not understand what you guys are telling you. I've never been to a Benihana. I've never been to a Venihana.
But can I tell you this? Have I said this on air before? My mom, when she was in the ER once, like young, I think before she like it was a rotation maybe in med school because she's pediatric, so she would never see an adult normally, right? A Benihana a Benny Hana chef came in with their finger almost completely severed. Ooh.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sweet. Sweet. Now, at an all-inclusive resort like that, do you do like excursions or are you You preserve? Can those you you can do excursions, it?
That's not too far from prime cacao growing. That's true, of course, but they had anything like a bunch of that, unfortunately. Yeah. Not very food centric. That would have been very nice.
You have to spend extra money for them to not serve you the food that they have prepared for you. Well, if you want to leave the site, you have to pay extra money for that. But otherwise, if you're with that, the report thing is free. What the hell is that? Is that normal?
How does that if you want to leave, you pay extra? That sounds like prison. You know what I mean? Like what? Yeah, but you don't really want to leave because everything is right there for you.
Okay. Everything. Well, yeah, I mean speaking of uh going back for a second. Am I the only person? I just want to know the level of the room.
Am I the only person here that's eaten in a golden corral? I think so. Oh my god. That used to be the thing. Grandma and grandpa would take me right when that sucker opened up at like five.
We'd be there. Yeah. Okay. That's just me then. Uh so, John, why don't you tell them how they can join the Patreon if they would like to?
Patreon.com slash cooking issues. And there's a bunch of great or you know, three different levels of membership where you get different perks at each level. Uh if you sign up, you get discounts to Kitchen Arts and Letters, uh discounts to Maiden and Grove and Vine for olive oils and all these great things from the guests that we have on the show. So, you know, the membership kind of pays for itself, really. Yeah, any time we have a guest on the show, we try to get a little uh try to get a little kicker for our uh for our Patreon folk.
If they have something to kick. If they have something to kick. I'm not saying that you have to kick us something, Michael. That's not how this works. Not it's not pay-for-play situation.
Uh although, wouldn't that be nice? That would be, yeah. It would be nice. Uh all right. So uh also I'm gonna say uh Andrew High, I thank you for the book on chafing dishes.
I have not gotten to read it yet because the last week you haven't chafed me, booked it, but I had other things to chafe other than my dish uh during the past week. However, John and I tasted your toothache plant cachaca, and what was our verdict, John? Um could uh not not not my cup of tea. What's it for, Andrew? Okay, so for those of you that don't know, like like one of the things you do with cachaca is you soak you soak crap in it, right?
So, you know, I've seen it with whatever, sometimes like animals, like there's people will do like snakes and weird things. Right. People will do fruits like cashew apple or like uh, you know, I don't know, whatever. You've seen it, you've seen these, right, Michael. You've seen these things around.
And uh yeah, yeah. So this one is this toothache plant, which I don't know, but apparently they sell it at the at the green market here in Union Square. You ever use this stuff? I've tasted it. What do you think about it?
Um I I think I think it's in the more interesting than delicious category. There you go. Yeah. This is what they think about you. This is what they think about you.
For those of you that know Ice Cube. Anyway, the uh like I I'm gonna taste it again, but I have to say, poisonous tasting. Poisonous tasting. Like I'm trying, I'm trying to imagine what we would use it for, other than as like a malort situation. For those of you that don't know, Melort is the uh Chicagoan version of Basca Drapar, which is a hardcore bitter wormwood shot.
I enjoy it. My lord? I enjoy it. I got some. Like with you right now?
Not with me right now, but I do have it at the house. I had some Chicagoans. Is that gonna say it? I don't know. Uh uh, bring me some because it was this fabled, legendary bitter drink, and I love bitter drinks.
You love bitter drinks? Yeah, I like Millart. I got a free. I like it too. Okay, Jesus.
All right. Uh if I ever get the legit again, like if I ever go to Sweden again, I'm gonna get you some of the like the real like Buska drop bar stuff. You know what I mean? It is not to be sneezed at. Uh we I had some that I forget who brought it for me, but we used it.
It was a very specific size, so it was a perfect rolling pin for I forget what we were doing, but I always used it as a rolling pin and not as a uh a liquor. Michael, can we talk rolling pins for a minute? Uh sure. Are you a rolling pin? Do you like I mean that's not what you do?
Mainly you work with chocolate now, but do you mean like were you ever like a rolling pin fellow? I I mean, sure, as a pastry chef. Right. That's it. I don't know that I had strong opinions.
No. I mean, I'm a I'm a French pin guy. French pin. So describe a French pin. Non-tapered French pin.
Non tapered. Okay. Just um just more surface area, more contact. Contact. Yeah.
Who else, who else here is a rolling pin person? John, you a rolling pin person? I know Stas hates that crap, right, Stas? You hate a rolling pin. Yeah.
Yeah. Uh I mean, I'm putting words in your mouth, but any time I ask her a question about bacon, she's like, I don't bake. What are you talking about? Baking is hard. It's not that hard.
You just don't like it, right? Yeah. Lots of things are, I mean, it's not hard. You just have to like it. Anyway.
So, John, uh, what kind of pin do you use? I'd probably have to agree with Michael. You like a you like a that's the first of all, those pins are heavy. They're they're how how big is that? That's like an inch and a half, maybe an inch, and a half.
Inch and a half to two, yeah. Yeah. And uh the untapered ones are typically made of like, I don't know whether they're maple or beach or whatever they are, but they're heavy. Like they are a weapon. Like you could very club the club the ever loving hell out of somebody.
And what is nice I have to say about those pins, they're usually relatively long. They uh they don't cut into the edge because you never really go off the edge of them because they're pretty long. And they also discourage you from um, they discourage you from a particular kind of bad rolling pin technique because you can't just wrap your hands around and go like an idiot. Right. You know what I mean?
Well, I you know, one thing I always I always try to teach people, a lot of people use a rolling pin and turn it to jazzer size. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and you do that all day long. That's a lot of energy you're expending. Right.
So I I always teach people roll in one direction and then turn your dough 90 degrees. And that way you're also ensuring that whatever you're rolling isn't sticking to your surface. Right, right. Now now hear me out on the taper for a second, right? Because at home, I use a relatively, you know, for years, I use a relatively lightweight tapered French pin, right?
But uh not a great one, right? But okay, you know what I'm saying? And uh then I started, you know, past year or so been trying to make chapatis work, right? So, you know, chapatis are the Indian flatbread, high hydration, right? They use atta flour, atta flour is extremely finely ground so that it can absorb a lot of water, uh whole wheat.
It absorbs a lot of water. So it's it's even though it's a dry dough, it's like 72%, 73% hydration. So wet for how dry it feels. All right. You you flour it, and then you gotta roll it.
If you don't roll it thin enough, and if you don't roll it evenly enough, or if you tear it, then you have to cook it one side, cook it the other side, flip it, flame it, puffs, right? You with me? Boop, boop, boop, puff. And if it doesn't puff, it sucks. Right.
Right? No puff, sucks. And it's not just a matter of of it if it doesn't puff, so you feel like bad. It doesn't taste as good if it doesn't puff. Right.
The texture's wrong. Anyway. So I started rolling and I started doing the old thing where I would roll it and then I would turn it, roll it, turn it, roll it, turn it, flip it, roll it, turn it. And then I just watched a bunch of videos and I realized that if you use a tapered pin, and you I could probably do it without a tapered pin at this point because I practice a lot, but a tapered pin helps you get this down more. I don't need to touch it to get it to rotate anymore.
I can just go bit, bit, bit, bit, bit, bit, bit, and it spins underneath me while I'm rolling because I push on one side as I go up and the other side as I go back. And the thing just I I can choose. Mine are usually, I'm a counterclockwise spinner, right? I haven't tested it on pie doughs yet. That's the next move.
But I've been I've been I've been doing, you know, reliably, you know, what is that, eight or ten inches or so? Yeah. Eight to ten inch discs, real thin, real even, because you're not rolling in one spot, without ever touching the dough. And it feels fantastic. I'll I'll grant you for for a smaller piece.
Yeah, yeah. That those those tapered pins, they're super nimble. Yeah, yeah. So I'll grant you that. But if you're doing like lamination, uh you want that battle axe of a of a pin, I think.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh when you see a student uh mistreat a pin and dent it because they're a butthead, does it make you angry or no? I mean.
I mean, we could we could sit here for an hour and just list those things that we see that just make us cringe. Yeah for sure. Well, here's the other thing about a pin, right? There's two modes of thought on it. Not to go too deep on pins, but we already have, so I might as well just go all the way, right?
You could either have a very smooth pin, which is not gonna have a lot of traction on certain items, but I think that's actually fine, or you can have a tacky, like a like a like a less like not a wax. Do you know how they have the wax surface pins? Yeah, and they have the ones that are more like bowling pins, right? Feeling, and then they have the ones that are like kind of like a little bit rougher wood. And I was always a little bit rougher, but I'm more of a smooth guy now.
I'm more of a smooth, shiny guy now. What do you think? Yeah, I would agree. Yeah. I would agree.
I think people need to think more about their pins. I you've got me thinking more about it now. Yeah, there you go. Uh how the hell did I get into that? Why why are we even talking about that?
Why are we talking about pins? We were talking about Dominican Republic. Um, how did that get there? You're trying to find out. Malords.
Thank you, Jack. Oh, I use the Malord as a rolling pin. There you go. Not a good rolling pin, by the way. Bottles don't make good rolling pins, people, because uh they're just not they I mean, it it's an in-a-pinch kind of a situation.
Right. You know what I mean? In a pinch. You do a lot of lamination these days, Michael? Um, I have actually.
I'm I'm one of the many projects I'm working on. I'm I'm helping to open a bakery out in Dallas, Texas. Oh, yeah? So you've never been to Dallas. I will be going soon.
Do you own a uh Western hat yet? I don't, nor nor do I have cowboy boots. I would get the hat first. Yeah. Although, I don't know, it's me.
I don't uh wear sunscreen, so I wear hats when I go out. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Uh you get yourself a resist all when you're down there. Get yourself, you know. Styles, what do you like more? Like uh uh you like more of a uh uh what's what's it called? Um like a straw, like a s like a like a stiff straw hat, or you like more like the the the felt hat, the the fur felt hat, or neither uh neither.
No, come on. Yeah, I'm not a hat guy. But I don't know. I I was very thankful at the age where I could be like, don't care, I'm wearing this hat. Suck it.
You know what I mean? I mean, I I think I'm getting to that age in general. Yeah, it's nice. Nice, nice to not care. Uh all right.
Now, uh we do have some questions. Let me see. Uh from Dale Van Groff. Uh thrilled to hear you're on the show, Michael. I loved your bean to bar class, by the way.
So one of the things that you teach is bean to bar chocolate, right? Yeah, so that's been since about 2015, when when the school moved from 23rd Street down to Battery Park City. Um we had about 500 square feet of extra space, and we said, hey, let's do a bean to bar chocolate lab. Um so it's I'm not gonna say we're the only facility doing bean to bar education, but we're one of the very few in the country. Um so yeah, if you had asked me 10 years ago, you're gonna make chocolate or focus on chocolate from a manufacturing perspective, I would have said why.
Um but now that's at least half my life. Well, who was the first kind of like pastry chef gone chocolate maker? Jacques Terrez, way back in the day. Yeah, and you know, he never made a ton of his own. Right.
Um but he never claimed to, though. He never claimed to. No, no, no. But but you know, I I've also become a student of uh um New York City chocolate history, like specific to New York City. And I kind of think he may have been the first one to start making chocolate um in Manhattan at King Street, I believe.
Well, he started him first in Brooklyn across the river in Dumbo. Right, but I don't think I don't think that that had the heavy equipment. It wasn't as big, yeah. Right when you moved into King Street, didn't he have like a little concha and all that stuff? Wasn't he doing stuff in the city?
But I but I want to say that he would have been really one of the first people to manufacture chocolate in the confines of New York City in about 40 years. Yeah. But the the last big holdout was in the 1960s. Who was it? Uh it was a company called Rockwood.
At their height, they were second to Hershey. Like in the 1920s and 1930s, and they were there are actually there's a few buildings still standing. Um if you're cruising down the BQE, say from Williamsburg into Dumbo, and just as you're kind of in the area of the Navy Yard, if you look to your right, you'll see um the the former Rockwood factory, it's apartments now. I take exception to the idea that anyone can cruise down the BQE. Okay.
Well, I mean when you stopped in traffic on the VQE, yeah. Yeah. I hate the BQE so much. There's one you what there's one really nice thing about the BQ. Do you travel on the BKW a lot?
You know, I live in Sunnyside now. So a lot of times to get to Lower Manhattan, that's how I'll get there. You ever go to Calluccio's, which is near Sunnyside, Calluccio Brothers? I haven't actually. You need to go to Calduccio Brothers.
Uh do you ever do you ever you is your family are you a uh salt cod family at all? You would think with my uh like Baltic, Eastern European. Um, but no, that was not something I discovered until I started cooking professionally. Yeah. That they have the best salt cod selection really I have ever seen in the United States.
I mean, other places you can go, they have great salt cod selections, but. But around Christmas time, you go to Calluccio's and they have like full sides of like various different kinds of codes salted down. They'll sell you a little piece, but they really want to sell you the whole freaking oh my god, so awesome. And then you do everything. You do the baccala, you do the brand, you do the you know, you do like salt fish dishes from the Caribbean, you do them all because you have so much salt cod.
You know what I mean? And it doesn't go bad. Doesn't go bad. And then you know, you know what the my my thing with the salt cod is is that like um so the family that my my stepfather's family is Italian, I grew up with that, right? Um and we grew up Christmas, Christmas Eve, you had the the fishes, right?
And the bacala was one of them. But that dish requires really thick, nice hardcore quality cod because you're you're eating it as big chunks. Right, right. And then it's like, don't let it boil, don't ruin the baccalaura. You have soak it for days.
You know what I mean? But I really, as a when I cook at home, I like to buy the cheaper, thinner stuff, because you can use it the same day that you try to do it, and like it's just much easier for a lot of like, you know, like you know, salt fish mashed into like you know, yams and like name or whatever, or like, you know, in dishes or like fritters. Did you have any bacalitos when you were down there, John? Nope. It's disappointing on the local food front.
Yeah. Yeah. I know. Good fruit? Yes, very good fruit.
Good papaya, good pineapple, great mango, things like that. Wait, wait. Good, good, great. Uh papaya was great. Mango is great, pineapple is okay.
I mean, good, but like I've had better, but it was still very good compared to what we get here. Well, I mean, like papayas in the United States are the worst fruits. Like, I don't understand why anyone uses papaya here. I don't understand why people sell it. I don't I like, you know, I've had kids, I know what diapers are like.
Like I don't need an American papaya in my life. Yeah. I just don't. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Uh you know in Colombia, obviously, they have that phrase, you know, no dark papaya, right? Don't don't give papaya. 'Cause their papaya, I'm like, why would you say that? Like, I'll give every papaya away. I'll give them all away.
And then you have their papaya, and it's like, oh, this is good. This is a good fruit. It is a good fruit, yeah. Do you like papaya, Michael? But I I I do feel the same way.
I even uh guavas that you get here typically are very disappointing as well. The other thing about a guava that's it's this is one of those fruits that it should have more than one name. It's like it's like if you called an apple and a pear the same freaking thing. Sure. They're both, you know, papals.
No, like yeah, like guavas, there's such a range in guavas. And yes, they're all mostly crappy here. Yeah. Same with sour sop. Don't you wish sour sap was better here?
Flavor I love. I love that. Sarsop so good. The puree isn't. Oh, okay then.
I have not had so one of the things that Michael does, I forgot, is he is a brand ambassador. Is that true? It's true. Brand ambassador for a boiron. Now that John can say with some serious French accent.
Give me some. Boiron. Oh. Very good. Yeah.
So uh what's it like working for Big Pure? Um it it's it's fun actually. Um because i I think what's most interesting for me, especially in the context of all the time I'm spending in chocolate world, where the future is a big topic, sustainability, all that stuff. Um is seeing where where Boiron as a company is is taking that, you know, because if you think about it, it's kind of a messed up idea. We're buying fruit from the best place where it grows.
We're buying mangoes from India, we're shipping it to France to process, and then we're shipping it again somewhere else. But it's on a boat, right? It's not that inefficient because it's on a boat. Sure. But they're thinking about how do we fix that?
How do we make that you know more sustainable for the future? And I think do you get to go to the harvest place? Did you get to go to Kerala or wherever in India they are? I I I'm hoping that as I spend more time with them, um, that's in the cards. Certainly next time I go to France, because they a lot of their stone fruits come from locally in the southern Rhone Valley.
Is that how they started? That's how they started. They sold produce at the Ranji market outside of Paris. Oh man. I've been there.
Yeah. Yeah. I bought uh some bad truffles there. Not bad, but like, you know, cut rate truffles. Sure.
Yeah. Anyway. Good times. Yeah, great times. Yeah.
You ever you like that market? You gone there? I've been there once. And it was, you know, it's one of those things that's like so huge. Yeah.
At least you've been to uh Tikigi, yeah, yeah, whatever it was in the day. It seems more manageable. I don't know. It's Nastasi and I almost got killed there several times. Like the guys driving the little Remember that, Sas?
Yeah. It was awesome though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you have to have situational awareness when you're there.
Yeah, everyone's like, I need to see the tuna auction. We're like, I don't care. Let's let me see the whole damn thing. Yeah. You know what I mean?
Never seen so much styrofoam in my life. True. Yeah. So much. Oh, did you go there when you were working at Bernie's house?
I actually went there. It was a project that they were, they ran it for a few years. They would take a group of New York pastry chefs. Right. And just basically do a pop-up in Japan for a week.
Uh so who did I go with? I went with Bill Yossis. Oh, nice. Mark Almond from uh then at the Modern, now at Gabrielle Kreuter, uh, Deb Rassicot, who at the time was she's still at Aquavit, maybe. Um, yeah, cool group of like four or five of us.
And we we basically did a pop-up in a department store in Osaka for a week. Oh my god, how was that? It was a blast. Yeah. Were they when when Nastasi and I did our pop-up at the Park Hyatt, they were let's just say price insensitive to the ingredients.
It was amazing. Oh, yeah, and we know we didn't have to touch anything. I mean, they they we assembled some things in front of people for show, but oh, they made us crank the drinks out, all right, Stas. Oh, yeah. No, they had I mean, it was like kind of nestled between the Cartier counter and the product counter.
They had full cases. Um, you know, it was a uh a company that that runs like 20 pastry shops and all the various depachica throughout the country. Um they did all the prep, we sent them recipes, everything was perfect, beautiful. Nice. I need to go back.
Stas, we need to go back. Anyway. Uh all right, so let me finish this question from Dale. It's about bean to bar chocolate. Yes.
All right. Now, first of all, your bean to bar program. Do you okay? Maybe you should just talk about the the short history of being to bar. Like is chocolate alchemy still a good place to go for people, the website, or is there have they been surpassed?
Like what's going on? Like, why don't you describe the the movement of bean to bar among sm smaller producers and individuals at home? Sure. Um the way I usually like to explain it is if you were to go back 15 years ago, uh, there were maybe half a dozen small-scale chocolate makers in North America. Um, you had your Amano, um, I would even say guitar is still kind of like artisan industrial, right?
So they're like the pol they're like the polar beverage of chocolate. Sure, sure. So you had half a dozen small scale chocolate makers really inspired by what Scharfenberger started in the nineties, even though by that time they were already acquired by Hershey. Um I'm kin to Hershey. I did not know that.
Yeah. Milton's Neely Hershey. Great, great, great uncle. Died in 1945, already sold a business, don't have the money. Yeah, go ahead.
Um so yeah, around 2006, seven, eight is when you started to have this real explosion in craft, being the bar, artisan, specialty chocolate, whatever you want to call it. Um, and depending on who you ask today, in North America, there's probably five or six hundred small chocolate makers. Um what's small to you? I mean, that that's actually an interesting question because the the industry itself is trying to define what that means. Um I mean, off the top of my head, I start to think of you know, three, four or five tons is still small a year.
Um, but even some of the bigger ones are exceeding that. Um, they're probably 10, 10 tons and over. Um I mean, that that's really the sort of existential crisis of of what craft chocolate is defining itself. Um, is it the approach? Does it have to be done by hand?
Does it have to be ground in stone? Because a lot of these, a lot of these smaller companies are scaling up and they're moving to ball mills and rolling refiners and things like that. So it's it's it there are interesting conversations happening, and I think a lot of people have their own opinions of what the what what craft or artisan means. Um whereas, you know, we look at specialty coffee, we looked at craft brewing, they kind of have things defined. Um and chocolate doesn't quite have that yet.
Um yeah, it's an exciting time, it's still very exciting. I mean, do you think that stuff should be defined? I mean, do you care do you care more about the product or do you care about whether or not the you know it's two stones rolling on a third stone? I mean, I personally don't. Um, but it's helpful for consumers because a lot of consumers still don't really understand that that segment.
They don't understand why that chocolate bar costs ten dollars or fifteen dollars. So on that educational side, I think it helps to define you know what what this all means. Um because not all of it is great either. So if somebody, you know, shells out 10 bucks for a chocolate bar and they have a bad time, they're not gonna they're not gonna go back. Ren.
So I know that Jacques Therese back in the day when he opened not the original one in Dumbo, but the the larger factory in um down, what was that, Tribeca or like house like King Street, yeah, whatever around there, yeah. Um he said that one of the issues was it was very hard for anyone at his scale, right? And he was one of the few people doing it at the time to get a hold of good raw material. Is that changed? That has totally changed.
So how's it work now? So um, I mean, the the basic unit of measurement for cacao is still the 60 kilo bag. Um so for your home enthusiasts, that's not super convenient. Um it's just like hydrocolloids, right? Remember back in the day, the only way you could get your hands on that stuff is you had to, you know, request free samples.
Yeah, yeah. And you would use a free sample for years. And and then, but then they got wise to it, right? And they stopped. So it took, you know, the the distributors and the suppliers to okay, we're gonna buy that 50 gallon drum and break it down into one pound bags for you.
That's starting to happen with cacao. Um so you know, I say with a few hundred dollars investment, you can get a tabletop melanger, right? And you have access to the same cocoa beans that all these other craft chocolate makers are using. Um what about the access of those makers versus like a Valrona? I mean, Valrona is is in country typically, and they're working, you know, a lot of their their growers are exclusive to them.
You know, so that's that's just decades of relationships. But you know, if you if you were to go to a specialty chocolate shore store, um, and you see, you know, all the all the the origins they're using. Tanzania, Uganda, um, you name it, chances are you can get those beans, either through chocolate alchemy, as you mentioned, or another um that's they're who I learned this stuff from, but I mean French culinary. He's the godfather of this movement, really, John John Nancy. And how much did that because they were like, buy this, buy this wet grinder from India that's not meant to do chocolate because it looks like a chocolate grinder, and then do it, use it as your conch as well, do the whole thing.
This was like in 2010, something like this, 28, something like that. Two and when we at the French culinary bought like three of them because we started doing, you know, like just messing around with it. And to me, that site was a revelation. I don't know. Have they has have they helped even the larger scale people get access to these beans because brought more attention to it?
Is it kind of like homebrewing, like you're saying, where actual homebrewers helped the craft brewing industry or no I yeah I think so I I think he helped open it up you know there's another um another source that I use based in Portland Oregon Meridian cacao so they're importers you know so you can buy full bags you can buy a pallet from them but you can also buy five ten pound bags um from them as well so so that's starting to open up and for for home people is uh is a uh is the wet grinder still the way to go it's a great start and I'm actually my one of my missions is to get them into more like restaurant kitchens. Wet grinders. Yeah I mean you're not gonna make all of your own chocolate although I think you should play around with it even if you're using nibs from your dry storage um play around with it so you get an appreciation for it but you can make something special for one dish. You can make your own gendu you can make your own nut pastes. I yeah no I love the wet grinder I love it so and the mustard and the right John they're cheaper than a variable speed blender right so you can get them for like 300 bucks yeah yeah if you wait around you can get them for even do you care whether it's a straight sewn or an angled stone does it but do you care at all?
I haven't really worked with the angled stones yet. I only have straight stone. Yeah. That's what I'm used to. Yeah.
But they work they just keep working they're very simple belt driven machines they just go. I've never had one uh okay I've I've worn through maybe one in the last six years but I've got half a dozen of them I leave them running for three days yeah I sleep fine at night. They're great. Yeah. The one thing we used to have to do when we did chocolate was uh off on, off on, off on to get the moisture to leave in the right amount.
But like, you know, and keep the temperature right, you know what I mean? I mean, as a as a as a conch, it's not very efficient. Right. So so you need heat and you need airflow. So people will set up rigs.
You know, I set up a little desk fan, uh, which cools it down, unfortunately. But you know, you hit the hit it with a heat gun periodically. Um, I've also started to use a thermo mix. No my god, you're so fancy. So European.
As as sort of like uh a conch when I've got, you know, a kilo or two. Do you like it as a conch? Is that a reason to own one if you're gonna I mean I mean you can use it for so many things. Europeans love them so much. Yeah.
And you know what's what what was surprising to me is when they finally brought them to North America, they targeted home cooks and that pros. Because that's what uh it is in Europe. It's like all the chefs use it, but people have it at home. True. You know what I mean?
Um and they're expensive there, but vitapreps are also expensive over there. Like vitaprep costs like what thermal mix costs. I mean, in my experience, all the chefs in Europe pined for Vitamix, and everyone here was, you know, trying to get their European thermomix to work on our one ten. Yeah. Anytime in Europe back when I was at the FCI, any time a European chef would come through, do you have the thermal mix?
We're like, no, no, it got stolen a year ago, and we didn't buy another one. Come on, man. Right? I mean, come on. But yeah, I mean, those those stone grinders are great.
Um, and and what we're what we've seen in the last few years is all the people who started on those, you know, and they graduate up to the you know, 50, 60 kilo, is okay, scaling up, it's very inefficient. So a lot of those early craft chocolate makers have now started to grow into you know, what some people feel is more industrial, because it's metal. Right. Yeah, there is a there's there is there's this romance about stone. Well, I don't know.
So the next level up of stone one, the like the old like style melangeurs aren't in efficient, they're not very good. I mean, compared to roller refiners and ball mills and things like that, or or universals, Macintyre. Um and and and certainly um do you like that Duchamp work, grinding my own grinding my chocolate? Is that still a slang word in in French, John? I don't know.
You know that piece on glass with a chocolate grinder? Oh yes. Yeah, and it's a uh it's a uh it's a self-pleasuring reference in in uh French. Yeah. I guess I never never caught on to that.
Well he, you know, he was like that, Duchamp. Yeah, you know. Yeah. It was. Yeah.
Uh all right. So now that we've discussed by the way, do you still use for grinding the uh nibs? Do you still use like a I we use like a champion? Is that still what people use or what what do they use? Anything?
I I I personally I thought that was like a completely unnecessary step. Just you throw it in and just let it go cook. Yeah, I mean you you you add them, you know, slowly. Um I I mean I also have larger scale equipment. So I do have a uh like a hammer mill that I can produce liquor with.
Um but even just whizzing it up in a in a Roboku will save you an hour and you can add it faster. Or quisna for those of us that can't afford Robocus. Okay. But I I also use like uh dehydrators as warmers. So warm bowl, warm stones, warm nibs, warm sugar, it makes everything go faster.
What's the uh do you do you bother pre-dusting your sugar in a blender or no? Uh I typically don't. I typically don't. Where are you on less than? Uh I'm I'm pro less of thin if it's needed.
Right. Um, fluidity in chocolate, I think is really important. We're gonna apparently we're gonna talk about that in a minute. What where are you on uh you know for a while there's that whole thing of like I'm not gonna add I'm not gonna add cocoa butter to it. I won't.
What do you think? Again, my my preference is for that, I guess I guess I would call it a French style, a little bit of extra cocoa butter, uh less of thin when it's needed. To me, it's it's like uh I'm not the spirits guy that you are, but you know, uh an ice cube and and a glass of whiskey is gonna make it open up, right? Yeah, because it's too hot anyway. Yeah.
And in the same sense, you know, some people feel like if I'm adding cocoa butter, I'm diluting the intensity of the flavor. My opinion is if it makes it more fluid, it coats your palate and and the evolution, the length of the flavor is is increased. You get more flavor release over time. So you actually taste more of it rather than just this kind of muddy chocolate sitting on your tongue. And most cocoa butter is pretty bad.
Do you use deodorized? Uh sometimes I use deodorized. I have a cocoa butter press too. Um, so that you're right. I saw it.
It's awesome. So then you can use your own cocoa butter and then use it. And and that's also an argument against adding cocoa butter, because then for most people that means it's no longer single origin. Right. Um, but if you can press the beans that you're making chocolate from.
Do the hand oil presses, the little ones that for a couple hundred bucks for nuts, do they work for pressing? I mean, people say they work. I've never used them. You know, I always want to. I can't imagine what kind of yield you get.
You know, because my cocoa butter press, it's you know, it takes 90 minutes at 75 tons of pressure to get, you know, 90% of the cocoa butter out of that liquor. So I I I'm I'm a firm believer in you you don't get what you don't pay for. You don't give a way you don't. Yeah, all right. So so I I I'm skeptical, but I've never used them.
What about roasting? What's the what's the way to roast now? Um I mean, when I've had a chance to play on like uh adapted coffee roasters, love it. Love it. Which uh that was also something I picked up during the pandemic was rot roasting coffee at home in little bmors.
Um but I have a a drum roaster uh in the lab. So, you know, uh dynamic roasting is always the way to go. So you can make it work in an oven if you have to. But uh is there is it similar to coffee? Is there an air versus drum debate?
Um I I don't think you see as many people using um the the fluid, are you talking about like fluid beds? Yeah, like civets though. I I think I think it's still early days. But why wouldn't you? Is there a reason not to?
I I haven't personally worked with one. Um but I but I think most people are still using drum roasters. Yeah. All right. Now to the question finally, after we've uh laid the groundwork.
Sure. Yeah. Um thrilled to hear you're on the show. This is Dale Van Groth again. Right.
Loved your bean to bar class, and I'm glad to hear it's back on. My question is on culinary education more broadly. Uh so much has changed in the industry as a uh a result of the pandemic, and there were tons of changes happening even before uh that with technology, social media, and app based delivery, just name a few. What do you do differently than you used to in order to prepare your students for this brave new world of education? I guess both as an educator and as uh I'll uh as an educator and sending them into a different industry.
It's a whole different industry. Uh and how have you and uh ICE more broadly uh evolved your professional development curriculum to help these those currently in the industry keep up? It's a lot to unpack. Um I'll I'll take the last part first. Okay.
Um unfortunately, due to the pandemic, a lot of public facing stuff um was slow to come back. So that would include our our professional development work. And that's really where my passion has been. Uh I've never been faculty, I've never been in administration. I was just this weird guy working in his corner.
You can relate, right? Well, at least you had a corner. Stas and I were in what, Stas? A closet. Yeah, trash room, trash closet.
Um so that was always my my passion. And that started to come back. And that's really where the the classes that we do in the chocolate lab. Um, you know, it's for people who either are just curious or aspire to get into chocolate making. Um, so I'm happy to see that slowly starting to come back.
Um, you know, it's interesting. Um just to try to be succinct, I I think I what I was already observing um is that the average age of the student was getting younger. It almost feels like we're seeing them right out of high school. Um, which when I started at ICE with you know no experience and education whatsoever, um, it seemed like it was a lot of career changers. And I and I was led to believe that that had a lot to do with you know, financial stuff happening in 2008, nine, 10.
Um, you know, people would get their degree and spend a couple years working in a law firm and realize, no, I want to cook. Yeah. Um, so I I I started to see that age skew younger. I also think what's interesting, and I I don't know if this is good or bad, um, but I think, you know, if you were to pull an average class of students, fewer are probably having their sights set on working in, say, a fine dining restaurant, and a lot of them have this idea of what they they already have an idea of what they want to do, kind of on an entrepreneurial side. I don't know if that's good or bad.
Um, you know, they want to start a cake business or a cookie business, or they want to make barbecue sauces or whatever, and they kind of feel they need to go through this program to, you know, to get a good base. Well, building on that on the pastry side, like back when you were at La Berna Dan was I I see if you agree with me. This is my opinion that I have, but maybe it's just because I'm not plugged into that part of the world anymore. But like that was kind of the golden age of the pastry chef. Like I, you know, the average well-informed diner in New York could name probably five pastry chefs at least, right?
Not just people in the industry, like anywhere, like they were getting the press, you know, you you know, you were getting press, a bunch of people getting press. And then so that was like kind of a goal, and then all of a sudden the goal became more again, traditional kind of pastry things, like you know, what Dominique Ansel is doing is bakery, or like you say, starting bakeries or going doing things, and I don't hear as much press about people doing fine dining pastry anymore. Do you agree with that? I what do you think about it? I kind of do.
I mean, I I also kind of get get into my bubble um where I realize I'm not really down with the scene as much as I used to be. I think, and I and I've talked to this with people recently. One of the things I think that is a factor is social media. Um and and also if you if you went back 10, 15, 20 years, um it was it was fine dining, was sort of what you looked at. Right.
So you looked at who are the pastry chefs working in all these these restaurants. And they were, you know, I wouldn't say they're household names, but yeah, whatever. They they were known known entities. You were as likely to know the pastry chef as the chef in a lot of places. Sure.
Now I think, you know, I'm like, oh, okay, who who who is important and influential uh today? Uh I'm sure we could both scroll through Instagram and just randomly see people with hundred plus thousand followers that are they they just cater to their little bubble. You can be really into a certain style of cake or a certain, you could be really into laminated pastries, and there are superstars in that those little bubbles. Um I I I think that's part of it, if that makes sense. Um yeah, I mean, there are people out there working.
You know, some sometimes I people say, there haven't been any pastry chefs since you and Sam and Alex and whoever. No. There have been people working, they just we're not hearing about them through the the I think the the food media has also changed. Right. They're not getting the same light from the food media, I don't think.
I think that's true though, right? They're not getting the same light from the food media. I think so. But does that then also change kind of who wants the job? Hmm.
To someone who doesn't want that kind of a situation? Because for a while it was kind of you needed to be a certain kind of because you were getting a lot of not you not you in particular, but yes, you also you in particular, but there was a certain like need to be out there in the same way that the savory side chef is often out there. Sure. Yeah, I mean, I I mean I pretty much had my own PR rep for for the most part for for a few years. Can I ask you something about La Bernardin?
Yeah. So there's a famous kind of plate in La Bernardine that we used to call at the FCI. Remember Stas, the Lady Parts plate? Yeah. Yeah.
So I know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, like, and I was there pretty recently, like pandemic, and they still have the Lady Parts plate. It's for one dish. Okay, okay.
But if you if you I mean, if you just rotate it 90 degrees, it's it's a football. Sure. Now, did anyone and I remember the first time that that thing got put on the uh on the social media? The plate is a lady parts plate, and then what was plated on it was more lady parts. And uh Stas and I were like, what the hell is this?
I was like, did is this some sort of like is like repair being punked, or does repair no? Like with someone like uh Chef, uh Lady Parts, right, Stas? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so so Dave is re referring to a a uh pounded tuna. So essentially like a tuna carpaccio that's then draped over a foie gras and all this stuff.
I mean, yeah, that dish existed long before I I stepped foot in the place and and still to this day. Yeah, yeah, it's it's something. Yeah. But do they know? I mean, I guess I never thought of it that way.
Because I always I always saw it presented as a football. So you're saying that all of these years they don't know, still to this day. All right. We never had that conversation in any meetings. Okay.
Brady Vickers wants to know I followed your blog for years and would be interested to know if you uh have ever considered writing again. Uh I know I would be very interested in anything you wanted to share, and I wish all of those recipes were still available online. Your blog was quite nice. Did you do all the little drawings and everything? Because you're an artist as well.
You that's what you did. I did everything. Um that was kind of early, I mean early-ish days. You know, so it was like, you know, who are who are the who are the go-tos? I mean, stuff that you were doing, and and Alex and Aki, of course.
Um, and this was like, let's try to document what we do in the kitchen almost every day. Um, you know, and it's funny because people will still approach me with like a printed out bound, you know, copy of all that stuff. I'm like, uh, these are these are now like 14 years old. Like match back when we would print the internet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um yeah, I don't know. I mean, I've I've I've every few years I talk to a book agent, you know, and it's like to sell a book, especially now. I mean, it was even different 10 years ago when I first started having these conversations. Um I don't know. I I always refer back to the was it Churchill who said, you know, there's there's enough bad books on the shelf, I don't need to add mine to them.
Um you don't nobody need my version of a chocolate chip cookie recipe. So how do you make it different? So yeah, as a chef, you you want the coffee table book? I mean, I would like your version of it. What's your favorite chocolate what style of chocolate chip cookie?
Don't give me the recipe, but like how do you like it? What is an ideal chocolate chip cookie to you? I mean, a lot of it is on timing. Right. So I still want it warm from the oven, slightly crispy, but soft.
But I mean only on the edges. How thin? How thin is this thing? I mean, I don't want it super thin, but I don't want like the lump of undercooked dough. But you don't like it when like the the the it's so thin that the chips stay I'm proud of the of of the thing.
No. No, I want some I want some some bite to it, some body. So not like those kind of almost molasses y thinks. You know what I'm talking about that style? Not not for me.
Yeah. But not hyper puffy either. Not and yeah. What texture does it have when it's cold? Not crispy.
Like that's why I like it right out of the oven because you get a little bit of a crispiness but it's still soft. Yeah what about like a completely like a like a you know like what what you'd buy the grocery store the soft bake like I hate those. Like so it's gotta have a little bit more the money move for any first of all show me with your hands so that only the Patreon people can see what's the ideal size of of a chocolate chip. Are you one of these people are you like a like a more traditional home yeah yeah traditional. Yeah.
Uh the money move always people and come on. If you don't know this, what the heck's wrong with you. Just toast cookies for a cup for like a little bit just a light toast on a cookie before you eat it. Yeah. And that brings its life back.
Comes back to life. I used to do that in even though we weren't allowed to use the conveyor toasters on cookies in college like the kind of like low end dining room cookies that we would get I'd be like I don't care what I'm allowed to do. This sucker's going in the conveyor toaster right now and it comes out and then it just breaks in your hand. But you know that the outside is still a little bit firm as you want to that's the way to do a cookie. Right?
Yeah. Yeah. But I mean with the with the book thing like um yeah I guess I I I have yet to to find the the the concept or the topic that I could do exactly the way I wanted to do it. Um I've I've toyed with this idea because I've I've gone so deep into chocolate manufacturing history in New York City, uh, which you can imagine like seven people are probably interested in. But I could give that the if I if I could give that the full academic treatment, like that could be cool.
Um, and I would love to do a project like that. Um yeah, I mean, there, but there's so much great content out there. You know, if I did uh the science and pastry approach, I I don't know that I would have anything to add to what you know people have already already put up. Yeah, but that's not even true. That's not even true, though.
I mean, like like you might not want to do it, but I mean the fact of the matter is is you have a voice that's different from other people's voices, so there's always something to add. And people are always making new stuff. Uh Johnny Shakes right in, and uh, Quinn, are you back yet? Yep, I'm surviving. All right, question for uh Michael and me and Quinn.
I own an ice cream shop, and although I have personally have no problems with them, we generally steer clear of gumslash emulsifiers, as our customers prefer not to see those things on the ingredient list. We use tapioca starch as a thickener, which is an interesting one to use if you're gonna use one. Yeah. Um we use tapioca starch as a thickener, but that's pretty much it. Although I've had great success with pistachio.
I love I love the way Italians say pistachio, pistaccio. Uh, and black sesame ice cream, peanut butter ice cream never turns out properly. I actually remember a video where Nick Morganstern says P uh PB is one of the harder flavors to make because they also don't use uh stabilizers or emulsifiers. It's hard to describe, but it almost looks like wet sand when it comes out of the batch freezer. You know, nut pastes are hard with that kind of stuff because the oil can seize up when it gets that cold, right?
But not in peanut butter though. Anyway, hold on, let me finish the question. If I add uh 0.1% guar, guar it comes out, I love gore. Comes out beautifully. Uh mostly just curious what's going on here and if you have any possible quote unquote clean labeled solutions for the problem.
Thanks. Hmm. Um, I don't know that I've ever really encountered that problem. Um you have a frozen peanut butter into an ice cream, it does get I may have. It gets weird, right?
It's really good. I mean it depends on on your dosage. Um, you know, I find if you're adding it 10 to 20%, which is usually sufficient, I don't really have a issue. But are you also balancing your your your milk fat? I don't know.
Because that's important. Um Yeah, they're doing um eight percent peanut butter roughly, and I think it's fourteen percent overall fat. So it's gonna be about ten percent from milk, and then like probably four from the peanut butter. Like so you have this information, you didn't give it to Michael. Nice.
I mean that shouldn't be a problem. That shouldn't be a problem, but certainly once you get, you know, so that that's like what the industry calls like super premium uh in terms of fat content. I mean, yeah, an emulsifier is always a little helpful. But it's also you know, I wonder if sorry, I wonder if it would work to start just from roasted peanuts. I don't know.
I don't know. I mean it's also you know, just basic technique. Are you homogenizing and you know you don't need a homogenizer? I mean, an immersion blender will work in a pinch, but if is it properly homogenized going into the to the freezer? Um but it shouldn't shouldn't cause a problem.
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, you know, one thing that I I I I thought this was gonna be a flavor question, actually. Uh, but but definitely when working with nut nut paste, don't be afraid of salt. Um don't be afraid of salt generally.
But I mean in an ice cream, some people just don't think of it. They should though. Yeah, they should. All right, Quinn, you got some questions, and John's got a question. We only got four minutes left.
Get get get your questions in there. Get your questions in there, Quinn. What do you got? All right. Um John, we have all right, I'll go, I'll go first.
You know, I do a lot of yeah, frozen dessert pastry work. I really liked your recent post about those fruit gummies. Those looked really interesting. But I'm wondering, you know, my preference is always to concentrate and manipulate fruit or other sort of whole spices, whole botanicals. But do you ever lean to um either like uh essential oil or something like that?
Because I'm starting to get curious about those ingredients for certain flavors. I mean, you know, there's there's always I I'm I'm I never shun anything. Um so if if if something can be improved and you know, punched up with you know an essential oil or uh an extract or something, I'm I'm not opposed to it. You know, the the the gummy bears that you you referenced, that was actually kind of the culmination of working with with poor one fruit puree's and you know, most of that stuff is just out of the gate. It's color and flavor to make it taste like anything, you know.
And and when you're trying to adapt fruit pureees, for example, to confectionery, you know, you have to ask yourself, well, what can be water? So instead of using water as my syrup for my base, I'm using fruit puree, and I can start to then rely a little less on those uh those punch-ups, you know, extracts and flavorings and what have you colors. Yeah, yeah. Um, but you know, if if it's gonna make it taste better, yeah, I'll I'll add a drop of bergamot oil. You know, with with no guilt.
If you're trying to make it better, there's no guilt. Exactly. Yeah. If you're trying to be cheap, trying to rip people off, there you go. Guilt.
Yes. If you're trying to make it better, no guilt. Uh John, what's your question? All right, so relatively basic, but I'm trying to make uh chocolamous at the restaurant. So egg whites, uh, whipped cream, egg yolks, and I'm using 64% bittersweet dark chocolate uh from Valrona, the Manjari from Madagascar.
Yeah. Yeah, it's really delicious. Um basically the problem I'm having, so whip the egg whites to stiff peaks, whipped cream to stiff peaks, melt the chocolate, and then uh add the egg yolks. And basically when I do that, so I'll also temper the egg yolks by adding the chocolate a little bit of chocolate to the egg yolks, mix it up and then start adding it back to the overall chocolate. But as soon as I do that, the chocolate completely seizes up, and then I'm unable to kind of mix it throughout the egg whites and whipped cream, and as it sets, I get like little chocolatey chunks of the making chocolate chip mousse.
Yes, exactly. Um temperature of the eggs, room temp, had them sitting up for about an hour. Um that's the first thing I would look at. I mean, there is water in egg yolk. Okay, you know, but I would think there's enough fat that you should be able to incorporate that to the chocolate.
Um work faster. Okay. Wow. All right, fair. Wow.
Okay. All right, John, who's on next week again? Uh possibly Taraja Morel. If not, it is a no tangent Tuesday. And then the following week we have Rose Levy Burnbaum to talk about her new cookie book.
Oh, amazing. I didn't uh I did not know that. Yeah, amazing. Uh you know, last time I saw her was on the street. Uh yeah, I don't read documents.
Come on, man. Uh yeah, no, but Taraj is coming on next week, right, Stas? Yes, you're right. Alright, so that's it. So but I'm gonna try to get to some of these uh questions that we have, including I spent this morning measuring my induction burner uh because someone asked whether or not the induction burner can lift up.
On the way out, because we're we're I got one minute left. Let's talk about you're a Detroit area. You're a Detroit area boy. Give me some Detroit. Give me your favorite Detroit.
You still have family there? Actually, I don't. I haven't been back to Detroit in at least five years. Um wow. I didn't prep for that.
Um, you know, it's uh I'll I'll say this about Detroit. It's a weird place to visit, but it's a great place to be from. So if you're gonna go, um, you need a car. There's no public transportation to speak of. And yeah, just hook up with a local because there's there's a lot of great sort of like hidden gems.
You have beef heart chili men. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Beef heart chili, cooking issues.
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