Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Larner, host of Cooking News coming to you live from the Heart of Manhattan at Rockefeller Center. Joined uh as usual with Nastasa de Hammer Lopez in Connecticut, where she is recovering from some sort of internal poisoning. How you doing, Stas. I'm okay.
Yeah, yeah. Sucks to be sick. Really sucks to be sick. Yeah. We got uh Joe Hazen in the booth.
How you doing? I'm doing well. Great to see you, man. Yeah, good to see you as well. We got uh we got Quinn holding the fort down in Vancouver Island.
How are you doing, Quinn? I'm good. I'm good. Good, good. Uh Jackie Molecules, where are you right now?
Los Angeles. Los Angeles. And behind me in the studio, we got uh our intrepid Cheffy Chef uh John from Temperance. How you doing? Doing great, thanks.
Yeah, everything good? All right. Yeah. And uh following our normal new route, I'm gonna introduce our special guests so that they can be part of our pre-show or beginning show banter. I have uh we've never actually met before.
Wiley Dufresne in the studio, Chef Wiley Dufre. We've never met, right? This is the first time we're we've never met here before. Yes. In this very tiny room.
Yeah. So we've met in other tiny rooms. Other many, many other tiny rooms. The tiniest room, I think that we ever met was like your old office at WD50. Which is slightly smaller than this room, but not much.
Well, here's the thing. Like, uh, so you know, for those of you that don't know, uh Wiley Dufresne, my brother in law, and uh for a long time. In fact, that's how we know each other is because we shared a mutual interest in the Carpenter sisters. Yeah. That sounds weird when you say it like that.
Yeah, but fact. But it it yeah. Yeah. And uh so, anyways, so you might know he started well he stu well, you started at Il Forno in uh Al Forno. Al Farno, in uh in Rhode Island, right?
Well, I mean, actually, I mean, professionally that might be accurate. I've been cooking since I was eleven. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean like for jobs. I mean, I had several jobs in like summer jobs and restaurants, like between my college years, but my first one was, yes, the the summer before my senior year of college.
Uh I worked at Al Forno's, correct. And then you went to uh, you know, where I used to work and where Miley by the way, I was when I said I never had you on before, people were like, What about Miley? And I'm like, so you're married to Miley, who, you know, is the culinary journalism juggernaut to beat all culinary. You should have her on the show. You uh you should, you should yeah, I mean, I could leave and she could maybe come over now.
She is pretty close, actually. Well, she's on uh she's in Oklahoma. Oh chill chilling with the pioneer lady. Currently in or en route to Oklahoma. Is she the pioneer lady or the pioneer woman?
I I believe she goes by Pioneer Woman. Pioneer Woman, yeah. But she has a big old ranch, right? I I I mean again, that's why you should have Miley on to discuss those matters. That's not true.
So anyway, so then whatever. You went to the French Culinary Institute, then like you're well, your first big I'm just doing the quick thing. Maybe we'll do banter first and then we do quick. You want to do banter first? Uh you have anything good.
You cook anything good this week? Have I cooked anything good this week? Um uh not really. I mean, it's the week is pr it's early in the week. So I had to do that.
Well, I mean, in the last seven days. In the last seven days. My week started at your house, having having a uh sort of silence of the lambs turkey experience, which was uh which was enjoyable. Yeah, yeah. I like that.
That was good. I put the lotion, I literally put the lotion on the skin. You you certainly did. And it got so what I did, people was I made my mom's stuffing recipe because I'm I'm supposed to go on, and you were on Dave Chang's recipe club Chrissy and Chris. Not that long ago.
It was great. Good fun. Yeah. And so like I'm doing something with them, and I'm on their Thanksgiving episode, so I made my mom stuffing. But my gist of how the recipe club's supposed to work is that you're supposed to do something that is maybe that you haven't done before, right?
Correct. So like since I've had this stuffing every year of my life and have made it for at least or been a participant in making it for at least 42 years, right? Or at least since I was 10 or before, right? I was like, well, I gotta do something different. So I I ripped a skin off a turkey, just like the side just like Buffalo Bill, and then uh I meat glued it around the stuffing and just made like a like a just skin and stuffing, like just skin and stuffing.
I mean, the wings were added on for some some authentic for a little visual appeal. It was quite delicious. It was quite delicious. Well, I do love my mom's stuffing recipe. Uh this week I haven't I haven't prepared much.
I mean again, I started Sunday night at your house. Uh last night, uh we we dined al fresco um as a family. Uh and this I'll be cooking later this week. Pizzas on pizza's on the the docket. I make pizza every week.
Yeah. Um probably do uh the girls like the m my my wife, your other your sister in law, will be out of town most of the week. So I'll do be doing a lot of cooking. The girls like uh we do a little mango chicken. We got we found this delicious Indian mango chicken from a place not far from us up in Curry Hill, and I've reverse engineered it pretty well, so we'll do that.
The girls like that. Um, you know, uh it's fun. I like cooking at home a lot, as as do you. I know you do too. But so just like, I don't know, I'm just used to it anyway.
Yeah. Like I said, I make pizza every week because that's uh an important part of what's what's coming. And so Yeah, how much you want to talk about that? Um I mean, we can talk about most of it. Yeah.
Sure. All right. What about uh what about you guys, John? What do you got? What do you got?
Anything good this week? I'm assuming, Stas that you don't have that much good this week because you don't feel well, that you haven't been cooking a lot. I just got this like two days ago, but yeah, no, nothing good. All right. What about what about what about you, John?
No, nothing really, I guess. I don't know. I've been getting good at making the carbonara at the restaurant, but it's satisfying. But yeah. So what kind of carbonara learning curve did you go through?
I mean, I've always made it for myself and for family meal and things like that, but this was Yeah, I don't know. I've just been getting better at it. I found like the right ratio of cooked pasta to egg yolks to cheese. If any of you have been to the restaurant like maybe like three weeks ago and had the carbonara, go again. Have the Cabinet again.
What's the what's the pork product of choice in your carbonara? Guanchale. Yeah. Fair trying to get it. Wait, but who's Guan Charlie?
That uh that Iowa one? Yeah, La Quercia. You're gonna think I'm gonna try and get the salumeria biolese. You're a La Quercha man, huh? I okay.
Oh, all right. It's it's it's uh it's too dry to me, I think the Laquertia. Yeah, I don't know. I haven't had it. No offense.
I love anyone trying to do anything good. I'm not trying to not try to hurt anyone. But like I haven't had their uh guanchale for years and years and years. But like I kind of like the I kind of like the wetter rolled up. I don't know.
Yeah. I'm a huge guan chale fan though. A hundred percent. You know why? It's delicious.
That's correct. That is that's the correct answer of why to be a fan of anything. Yeah. Well, Dave, you know where you could try it, right? It's at my restaurant if you finally can't mind.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. You know what? With with friends like these.
Uh by the way, today is election day. So if you're listening to us live, uh, that means that you're on the Patreon. If you're not listening to us live and you want to, John, what should they do? Patreon.com slash cooking issues. We got three different levels of membership, all with great different perks.
At the base level, you always get to be part of the Discord, which I always forget to mention. It's a great talking space for members from the cooking issues community. You can ask a lot of different questions and I don't know, get recipe feedback and things like that. It's great. And then also great uh guests on for which we get uh discounts for listeners from uh Kitchen Arts and Letters and yeah, just a whole bunch of other things.
So you should join. It's very affordable. Plus also you can call in your questions live to 917 410 1507. That's 917 410 1507. Uh I'm I'm dialing right now.
Oh my god, don't tell you, don't be that guy. Don't be that guy. Like, it's on a loop. Turn down your turn anyway. Um so uh hey Quinn, what do you got going on?
Uh I did that uh that uh Cantonese ketchup spaghetti Chinese cooking demystified. It's pretty good. Uh compared to any other thing you could do, how was it? I I would do it again. Okay.
I'll say that. All right. Yeah. I don't know. Ketchup, I mean, like, I don't know.
Why don't you describe quickly the ingredient base that goes into it, huh? Well, it it's um onions. Uh huh. Fried in copious fat. Okay.
Uh the recipe calls for lard. I had to substitute uh ghee because that's all I had. And then you cook out the ketchup. And then you do address. When you say cook out, what do you mean cook out?
You mean cook it until it's fry the ketchup. Well, until what? Like, in other words, like like like the old school recipe say the fat pops out of it where it demul demulsifies, like almost turning it back to paste. I don't know, I don't know if we went that far, but like, yeah, there's a slight color change. At least.
And then there's an uh other tomato product added again. The recipe called for a little bit of fresh. I just did like half a can, and then you simmer it with uh crushed garlic, bay leaf, uh shoshing wine, uh a little soif. I mean, it's good. Bay, huh?
Uh I went to Jean George's the tin building a little while ago to buy uh, which you guys should go to. Uh I bought his fancy bay leaf, much better than the bay leaf that I was buying from my supermarket. Dried or fresh? Dry. Dried bay.
But like very well, La Wat. La boite piece. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So it was uh, you know, LaBoit makes good stuff.
The spice box. Yeah. Speaking of spice boxes, have you guys heard of spice bags, Irish spice bags? No. Wouldn't be your thing, Wiley.
John, you've never heard of the Irish spice bag? No. Oh my god. Quinn, you heard of the Irish spice bag? Jack or Stas?
Is that Joe? No, no. Oh, so apparently it's I've been called an Irish spice bag. There you go. Well, but you're more of a more of a French Canadian spice bag.
But uh so apparently it started at like Chinese takeouts in Dublin in the in the like 2010s, right around that area. And it's a mixture of like French fries, fried peppers, uh pieces of fried chicken, and then like cur curry, curry powder. Oh yeah. And sauce. And I was like, oh yeah.
Oh yeah. Yeah. That sounds good. Irish spice. And I like the name because it sounds real dirty.
No, no dairy product, no, no cheese of any kind, or anything like that? I know, but curds would be great on that. Yeah, I mean, that would be a very interesting riff on poutine. You know, that would be a chuck some curds into that. I rindia.
You gotta well anyway. I will I want it, I don't know if there's a legitimate spice bag here in New York. And I'm now kicking myself because it existed the last time I was in Dublin, because I was in Dublin only like maybe four years ago or five years ago. So it existed, and I was too stupid to get to have it. I was not in the no.
I mean, that seems like a strong assessment of you, but not in retrospect. I could have had a spice bag, the legitimate spice bag. And it's spreading slowly. I think it's coming to, I think it's maybe spreading through Irish pubs. I think there are some in New York, but I don't know who's got like a good one.
I want I don't want like although how could that combination be uh could be bad if you use bad chicken and bad French fries? And it's a curry blend, it's just like a uh a a dry spice? I think they add a dry spice, and I think they also add a uh they they serve it with a sauce. Like a dipping dipping sauce? I believe so.
Never had a hammer, but can you imagine just getting it like ripping open like a like one of those one, you know, those the grease paper, ripping it open and having that be in your spice sack? Right. I want that real bad. I want that real bad. Done well.
It sounds delicious. Oh yeah. Oh, hell yeah. You think they're in the basket at the same time, the fries and the chicken? Same I mean, that's how I would do it.
Same basket. I mean, you know, you know, unless you need to segregate your oils. You know what I mean? Anyway, that's racist. And uh miss your molecules.
So what what do you what what do you have going on in uh freegan uh what do you have going on in uh Mexico? Oh man, I was all over Mexico. Oh, by the way, I did I did hear the episode last week. I actually indeed did not have service, but I appreciated you poking finally. Um a ton of delicious food.
I was in Mexico City, Oaxaca, uh Morelos, some towns outside of Oaxaca. But at the end of my trip on the very last day, happened to go to this like I guess they call it like a psychedelic music festival called Hypnosis. And one of the headliners was Primus. Ooh, of all bands. And get this a few things.
So, first of all, this crowd is full of like hip young Mexicans. They all know every song, singing every lyric. Of Primus? Like Tommy the Cat. Yes.
I couldn't bel I was beside myself. I did not understand how this was possible. Were they mainly doing fizzle fry sailing the seas of cheese, or were they more when known as Big Brown Beaver era? What were they playing? They did When is Big Brown Beaver, Fizzle Fry, Jerry was a race car driver, my name is Mud, Tommy the Cat.
So they also played a uh the entire farewell to Kings Rush album as a cover, right? So this is but but here's the fun part a guy jumps on the stage and tries to steal less clay pool's bass in the middle of the song. Did he get the crap kicked out of it? Oh yeah, yeah, he sure did. Yeah.
Oh yeah. That's that was it was it was just wild. I just know we talked about Primus on the show a few weeks ago. It's very weird coincidence. Yeah.
I all like every month or two, I think about the concert I saw them play in New Haven with Fishbone, where he just stopped the song to defy the laws of tradition, which if you know that song, it's like, you know, it's like it's anyway, it's a song. So he stops right in the middle of it, just stops and goes, I hope none of you are doing hallucinogenic drugs. They're illegal and they're bad for you. Yep. And then like crazy.
I was like, man, because he was so high on hallucinogenic drugs at that moment. It was awesome. Anyway, uh, like oh that was uh it was either right after Sailing Seas of Cheese came out, or it was I think it was the tour for Sailing the Seas of Cheese is that it was that concert which was nuts. Uh good old days. Good old days.
Yeah, so and then lastly, I will up. I I I it's promising that I'd update the map with all my Mexico City recommendations. I will actually do that today. A lot of new spots that I found. Sounds good.
Uh Primus. All right. So you want some questions first, and then we'll go back into uh the whole uh the history of the Wiley or do you want to do more history? As you asked, sure. I'm happy for questions.
Questions? All right, we got we got questions for you. Right. All right. Oh, by the way, uh speaking of people who are interested in dough-based products.
Next week we have uh Craig from Olmo Kitchen coming on. Yep. So any of you that uh have bagel related questions, new vo bagel related questions. Oh, by the way, Jack, did you see that they're doing a new a new metal tour? Oh my god, I sure did.
Oh my god, so many bands. Like so much corn, so much incubus. Like, but then they're also including people like Skinny Puppy and freaking Mr. Bungle. So I'm like, on what like we're like, like, okay, Mr.
Bungle, I kind of get it, but like, how is Skinny Puppy the similar? I don't know. It's like slipknot playing that thing. I don't know. All I'm saying is probably it's an insane lineup.
It looks like a joke. When I saw it first, I was like, this has to be just a joke, like a meme. But it is real. You're like, I verified it. It's actually happening.
And then I went back and listened. I really did have to go look. Yeah. I mean, like, I like Skinny Puppy, right? But like a lot of this, because I don't consider that new metal, but a lot of that new metal.
Because they're delicious. They are. Yeah. That didn't really when you got it. But you by the way, Wiley, congratulations on on uh you and I joining the uh international Sous vide Hall of Fame together.
Yes, congratulations to us all. By the way, for those of you that don't know, Wiley's the one, I mean, I've said this on the air a million times. Wiley's the one who kind of got me into again, he was macking on my wife's sister, and so the only way he could do that was by getting me to get him immersion circulators off of eBay, and that's how we became friends. I mean, that's probably a modified version of the story, but it's the one that I'm sticking with, though. Okay.
Yeah. Well, why some truth to it? Wiley was the first person I know of other than Thomas Keller and maybe Charlie Trotter to have immersion circulators in the U.S. because no one had them here, and no one could afford them, right? So Wiley had a 250, 250,000 was what the Bonnet costs.
I mean, I I I don't know that it was it was a lot. There's a lot of good that will come of discussing that. Well, I don't know. Uh not the cost, but like it's is expensive and huge and great. Yeah, 11 feet by eight feet.
Except for the fact that they could not replace the flat top pieces properly and I had to go and grind them down. Again, I don't think we're here to uh to to badmouth Bonet. But I'm saying this is like WD50 was a kit like a cook's paradise, right? It had a huge, awesome, amazing, everybody loved kitchen and a really nice downstairs. So like you know how when you go downstairs at a lot of restaurants, it really sucks.
It was nice downstairs. It was really nice downstairs. Like the pastry room was air conditioned. Correct. So that like, you know, that wouldn't mess up like the the ice creams and the bases and the whatever limb, whatever they were people's hair.
We don't want to mess up people's hair. That was mostly what it's like. Sam's hair when you opened was a thing of beauty. Sam Mason's hair was, you know. It still is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, like, you know, I could see installing air conditioned just to keep the cloth perfect. Correct. Yeah. Uh and man, the ice cream he was putting out of that place.
All the stuff. Like all the stuff that the that uh pastry folk I mean, you had kind of a really stupid, stupid list of pastry people come out of WT50. Um they were not stupid people. No, no, no, but like, but like a dumb, like crazily successful. Super talented.
Super talented. Yeah, yeah, no, it was it it it's always made me feel good, you know, the number of people that have gone through there and gone off to do great things. But oddly, the the most notable have been the the pastry department, you know, the the three pastry chefs. Um, as well as I mean, you know, she wasn't an actual she was just a cook, a pastry cook, but Christina Tosi without question is probably the mo of all the people that worked in the pastry department at W 50 the most famous. Yeah and and what has she done with her life?
Just kidding messing with you. Yeah Tozy who's basically ruling the world uh Sanchez who's like ruling your own CEO who's done very well Lucio Sanchez and Malcolm Livingston just released a pretty interesting dessert at sweet gr every sweet green. There's a sweet green here. You should go try it. It's available right now brand new dessert first time ever at Sweet Green.
And Stu Pac. You think I believe and Sam and Sam Mason also all extremely uh good people but all who've gone on to do great things. Well the other thing about all those people is they also all did their own they did their in other words they didn't come and just do exactly what the person who was do you know their predecessor did. They all had their own spins on things which I thought was really kind of fun. They all did their own new kind of things and techniques.
It was a very it was a very it was a kitchen where like you kind of demanded that people think and do kind of innovation work. Like you didn't really enjoy people just kind of like riding on it. You know what I mean? Well we we really encouraged people to be part of our thought process and I think in in that had the effect of giving those people confidence to eventually have their own thought process. And so I think they're all great examples of people who came and added to our body of work but but hopefully took you know something about our process and allowed them to help identify who they were and define who they were and continue to be.
I mean they're we're all obviously in a state of evolution, but they're all doing really great stuff. Yeah, and your bar program was always like one of the most interesting bar programs. At the time, I always I always used to say to uh I always used to say to, you know, whichever the magazines, because people still printed magazines back then, uh, would listen. I mean, they still print them. That's Miley's business.
I'm not bad mouthing the magazine business. But uh, you know, I I used to say that uh it was very hard for um restaurant bars to get the kind of play they deserve, but you had like you had like so many good people at WD. You had Tona, remember Tona, who's now in, you know, he did research and bar and cook and he plays trumpet and he was a nanny and he's a capoera expert. Uh I mean we had a lot of people, you know, start with Evan Freeman. Evan Evan was our original juice.
We had we had unknowns, we had some very well knowns, you know. Um, and we had we had a lot of we had a lot of good people that went through the bar program there. I mean, uh again, we you know, I I I think I uh a great restaurant is got something to offer sort of an all rungs of the ladder. So we wanted to have not just good food, not just good service. We want, you know, we wanted to have food and beverage, but within the food and beverage, we wanted to have, you know, we had an amazing, you know, sherry collection.
We had amazing rums that nobody knew about. We had all sorts of different, we had a lot of different beverages, you know, that we felt just added to the layered experience that was WD50. If, you know, when you when you decide to come and however you wanted to engage, whether it was simply just dinner or sort of go on this journey, there were a number of different ways that you could go on the journey and and you know, between myself and my father and and and the rest of the people, we just believed that the more the more layers we could put, the the richer the experience would be. And so we we tried to have all that stuff. And so that's you know, that was the fun of it.
Except salad. Uh well, because I don't believe that salad is part of the layered experience. Yeah, did you know that, John, that Wiley is a uh you don't hate Sally, you just didn't want to serve it. Correct. Yeah, interesting.
Yeah. I'd like to share a little story about WD50, if I may. Sure. So, Wiley, when I first started cooking back in 2008, you came to the restaurant I was working at, Resto, because Dan Ross Lutweiler had been one of your your interns at one point. And I made you a grilled cheese.
You know, like a fancy grilled cheese. Because that's what we were doing there. But didn't know who you were. And then a couple weeks later, you know, I don't know, Dan made a big deal out of it. So I ended up getting a reservation at WD-50, and I showed up there, and you're one of the I can't remember who the server was, but we started talking to him, and he, you know, and I casually mentioned, you know, that I'd made you grilled cheese, not thinking anything of it, you know, and that's why I was there and just for the fun of it.
But he went and told you, and then the level of hospitality that you showed us was absolutely incredible. You sent out five free appetizers, three free entrees, and then you gave us a personal tour of the kitchen afterwards, and that just like solidified me wanting to be in hospitality. Like that experience that you gave me without even having ever met me was just so kind and generous. And it was, yeah, that's why I'm back to chefing now. So thank you.
Well, I have the invoice, so I'm actually here to collect on those those nine free things that you were issuing. Yeah, well, you know, I'm I'm glad you enjoyed it. It was a it was a good time. Yeah. Well, WD was always extremely generous to cooks.
You always have loved cooks. Yeah, I I mean, sure, absolutely, yes, a hundred percent. I mean, we tried to extend ourselves to any and all customers, but we did like to give um special consideration to to to kitchen, you know, to cooks, kitchen workers that would come and, you know, understandably not necessarily have have the ability to to afford to eat their i i to have the full experience. I mean, yes, we had a la carte, but I I think really WD50 at the height of its powers was a long, slow, fun tasting menu. Um where you could do a lot of different things and have a lot of different flavors and taste experiences.
And so we were always trying to make sure that when cooks came by that we could give them the opportunity to to maybe try it, try it, try something beyond what maybe they could afford because you know, back in those days, I mean still to this day, it it's it's not the most lucrative position in the restaurant. Right, right. And I'm saying extending this hospital hospitality to like line cooks, like, you know, any kind of people. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
It was not, you know, it was it wasn't we were not discriminating. And and I mean, I hope that we made anybody feel good, you know, we're restaurant employees or not. But we we did always um we had a always had a thing for single diners, like that we had a policy that if you someone's dining alone to really go over the above and beyond for them because um, you know, it just seemed like a fun opportunity to to take someone who's dining alone and really give them an even richer richer thing. Uh not that not not not to imply that dining alone is somehow sad or something like that, because dining alone can be great, you know, going to the movies alone. Do have singular experiences can be can be i great.
But uh but we again we just we try to really um you know, I I it's I think that people that get involved in restaurants are uh are it it's it's it's so much fun to dole out that hospitality. It's so satisfying to be able to say, hey, look, we we do this and we want to give you more of what we do. And we're not particularly interested in whether or not you can afford it or want to pay for it. We just, we're excited about this and we want to bestow it upon you. And so I I think that people that are involved in restaurants and hospitality tend to be very generous in nature.
And so it's uh it's just really fun. I mean, it's really fun. I think it would be really hard nowadays to do something like WD50. You know what I mean? First of all, like just the mentality behind it.
I think it would be hard to get, I don't think you could do it again. Not you one. You know what I mean? Like that kitchen, like the the level of so you like for those that never got to go there, you know, it was uh bare wood, right? Not not tablecloth, but you know, it the place settings were put out just so.
So it's like a very specific mix of not overly stodgy, not stodgy, but also like controlled. Is that makes? Yeah, I mean, I think you see a lot of those roots in in modern two and three-star Michelin experiences, mostly in Europe. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know that there's necessarily tablecloths on the table at Noma, to be honest with you.
I think it's more about the beautiful wood. The same way. I mean, our tables were made from the wood reclaimed from the floor when we renovated the building, and and and that's as equally, I think a part of our story as a place like Noma harvesting wood from some local forest or some storied this or that. But I I you know, I think at it at its uh I I I think restaurants like that are in some ways m ultimately more of a European like supported by the by uh European or foreign place, like America's not. There were never, I mean, when you know, a Linia is still a practitioner, and there are maybe a small handful of other places thinking, cooking, giving you experience in that sort of way.
Although I think the the like you said, the dining room, a lot of the service and stuff at WD is not like a Liney at all. It's much um much more informal, uh much more casual. Um but it it it's it I th I think you're right. I think it would be hard to do that. I think it had a time and a place, and you know, well, especially the the mental room that that kitchen allowed.
I don't think anyone I think it'd be hard to to get that built again. You know what I mean? Like it's it's a it's a lot, you know, it there's a lot of pressure too to constantly innovate. I mean, it was a different time. It was a different time in kitchens.
There was almost this kind of crazy space race around the world where it was like, okay, you know, we're gonna be at Madrid Fusion this year, or we're gonna be at Star Shifts this year. What are we gonna do? What are we gonna show? What are I it was, you know, there was a lot of technique. It was a lot of technique driven.
I mean, I think some people the critics used that as an opportunity to say it wasn't good because it wasn't about flavor or deliciousness, it was just about this, you know, how can I make something crazy? And I I I disagree with that. Um, but there was almost this sort of maniacal space race to to come up with this new wild and crazy technique, of which you played, you know, many a vital role in in in in in, you know, whether it was making, you know, coffee and milk drops, keeping the circulators running. Keeping the circulators running. But it it was a wonderful time.
It was a wonderful time, but I think that probably that time has has passed. Um I think that there's still room for for a lot of the belief systems that I have about cooking and approaches to cooking, and you know, we're applying a lot of that thought process to what what what's involved in a pizza. But um I think for, you know, if someone said here's five million dollars, go open another WD 50, I think I might actually uh, you know, say, I I uh thank you, but no, I let's open 15 pizzeria's instead. Yeah. That's a lot of work.
Unless you already opened a WD 50. Yeah, and and like, you know, I feel good. I feel good. We set out to achieve a lot of things. And I think for the most part, we achieved every goal.
You know, we we that we set out. And so it it it it this it was the circle was complete. And don't, you know, Alder was an incomplete thought. It didn't get to go all the way through. Uh and that's too bad.
And dues certainly didn't come close. Um, and that's also unfortunate. But I feel good about you know WD 50's life cycle. WD50 stayed open until they knocked the building down. Yeah, and to this day there's still nothing in the retail space.
So I feel bad. I feel bad for for the sort of myopic vision that the landlords at the time had, because they they could we could have put it back. Anyway, that's that's a story for another day. Yeah, one of the many, many times I ate a WD 50, um, I remember I was having a delicious tasting meal. But but he like Wiley would always keep some of his uh his pork belly around because he knew that I loved his pork belly.
Like Wiley's pork belly is real good. You want to go through the procedure? It was just a long, slow, you know, it was a it was brined for a while and then it was cooked for even longer. Uh you pressed it real flat so you got good skin kind of. And then it was pressed after that.
So it was, you know, it was like a two to three day process. But I mean that it were it not for the pork belly, you and I may not know each other. I mean that pork belly was good. Like I don't I I would just be like, more pork, like this more pork belly. Well that's what you were known as.
You were the guy that wanted the middle course pork belly. Yeah, yeah. That's you know. Well, I appreciated it. Chef, the guy, middle course pork belly wants a kitchen tour.
When you go tell the guy if he wants a kitchen tour, I want to date with his sister. See? I and I wasn't lying. And so th you know, long story short, I married the girl. Yeah, yeah.
And Dave got the pork. So everybody wins. I uh yeah. I went one all the way around. Yeah.
But I remember so like uh so WD-50 uh had like big picture windows in the front and like the bar, and you kind of go in, and uh it's i it was literally I I mean I was living still in the Garmin District at the time, but I was about to move down to the neighborhood, or I just moved down to the neighborhood, and uh you're people are sitting there having this kind of amazing tasting experience, and kids would just come up, pull their pants down and push their butt against the window. Remember that? I mean, who doesn't like little pressed ham? You know, who doesn't like little pressed ham? Different, different time, different time in uh in the in the lower east side.
Different time in the lower east side. Uh Biff Ditright's saying, question what is your this is for you, Wiley. Okay. He's trying to, he's trolling it. This is a troll question.
Oh, okay. Prepare for to be trolled. Okay. Okay. For those of you that don't know, Wiley had a uh uh a donut concept called do, which is short for dufrain duh.
Yeah. Yeah. Coffee, donuts, and you also have a family history of donuts. Donuts and coffee, but that's okay. We later lead with donuts.
Uh fair fair. But but you have a family history of of donuts. Correct. You want to talk about the family history of donuts briefly before I read this troll question so that they my great grandfather was uh a cake donut maker. Okay.
That's it. Yeah, and you you enjoy them. I very much enjoy them. Yeah. All right.
You know why? Because they're delicious. Yeah. Which is the correct answer for anything. Yeah.
I mean, that's delicious. Yeah. Question. What is your best argument for why cake donuts should even be bothered with when there is the clearly superior option of making yeasted nuts? Um well, that person has a medical condition.
I think if their nuts are yeased. Um for that I I'm sorry. I wish them a speedy recovery. Uh I I believe that uh, you know, again, the there's there's enough space in the world for everybody. But I think if you consider the the idea of taking cake batter, which is really what a cake donut is, and trying to fry that in a perfect circle in under three minutes, when not one normally would pour that into a pan and bake it in an oven in 30 to 45 minutes, that there's a real art to it.
Um, and I I find like a warm sugared cake donut about four minutes after it's come out of the oven when all the starches have actually retrograded and it's cooled to be sort of ethereal. But that's not to say that you, one, this lovely person couldn't enjoy a yeasted donut. But I think that a cake donut is better. Well, yeasted donuts are easier to make. I mean, okay, look, I don't want to be a jerk about it, but I mean, in other words, like they're self-sealing, right?
So, like you you you make a yeasted dough, and it's easier to get to a certain level with, I'm not saying to be great is hard with anything, but I'm saying just to a certain level, yeast is easier because they're self-skinning. So you throw them into the oil and they self-skin. Well, just because it's easier doesn't make it better or worse. Right. But I think you enjoy challenges.
And you even the way you just said it, making a cake donut is hard. It making a cake donut is hard. I would say, actually, bigger picture, frying in general is one of the hardest culinary forms, period, hardstop to do properly. It's there are so many more people practicing bad greasy. It's easy.
We have a saying, it's easy to make greasy food. And it's really easy to make greasy food in a fryer. It's very easy. Properly fried food is not greasy. Um, unfortunately, most cake donuts are greasy and they're perceived as moist.
People think that uh a don a grease leaden donut, laden donut is moist. It's actually not, it's greasy. A proper cake donut should have a nice crust, a ring. To be honest, I think an old fashioned is probably a donut at its highest, like the apex of art. Um but properly fried donuts are are really hard to do.
Properly fried anything is really hard to do. It's a lot easier to put a piece of fish or a or a piece of meat in a pan than it is to fry it. Yeah, I mean, I think people should think more about frying. I think they should do it more. It's really hard.
How do you like your Cajun fryer, by the way? Um, I do like that Cajun fryer. It's a lot of work to uh maintain uh a fryer that you don't use regularly. You know what I mean? Like, trust me.
Um I I I I mean, frying, you know, it's safe to fry outside and stuff like that, so it's great. And and I do like it, but it's um you know, having a flip. The lid works, the lid works to keep the oil good or yeah, yeah. I mean, having a fryer in the middle of the woods is not without its challenges. You know, I don't know.
It's in a clearing. To be fair, it's in a clearing. Anyway, but how do you deal with the do you are you okay with the lack of uh thermostat? That's the thing because like when I'm you know, you know, for so long, I I you know had a giant thermostatic fryer. I miss it dearly.
Well, it's in my garage if you want it. I know, but I have no place to put it. Although, you know, I think I figured out the problem. I thought I could probably put it back in, but you know what who wouldn't like that very much? The building.
Oh, my wife. Yeah. And the billionaire, yeah, yeah. Your insurance company. Yeah, oh my god.
Back in the old place when I had the 40 pound fryer. Oof. Yeah, and you didn't have children to be concerned about? I did. I did they knew not to put their get near the fryer.
It's like, come on. It's like, you know, don't stand behind the car when I'm backing out of the garage. Only for me it was don't get near the fryer when it's frying. Moving on. Anyway, uh, I missed a fryer deeply.
But you like the Cajun one for for it's a good uh option for people to have an outdoor fryer. Uh yes, it is a good option if for outdoor. Absolutely. 100%. And is that I forget, is that stainless or painted?
It's painted. Yeah. It's painted. Uh oh, you're lover the stainless, I'm sure. If like if they they'd offered you a stainless option, you well, it was a gift from my most excellent wife.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's good. I fried fish out there. I f I fried a lot of donuts out there. That's good.
A uh chef chef style people, Wiley turned me on to the stainless steel wedding bands. Like uh, yeah, yeah, you turned me on the stainless steel wedding band. Because uh you're a lover of stainless steel. I I I am. I am very much.
It's your favorite metal. Well, what's not to like? What's that to like about stainless? Yeah. I mean, it's stainless and it's hard.
Yeah, shiny. I was just having you know, you know, we're building a pizzeria and uh we just decided to clad the bar in stainless. And and someone said, Won't that won't won't like drinks leave leave rings on it? I said, uh no, because it's stainless. Stainless.
Yeah. But won't like, you know, like the way bars oxidize in the metal. I said it will not. They said it, but I said it's stainless. It will.
It will not leave a mark. It is without stain. Yeah. We had in our house up in Connecticut, we had countertops put in that were that were stainless, and the the contractor was like, I've got them in. They're they're they're they're gonna breathe, they'll be shiny, it's gonna look like chrome.
I was like, no, I want you to brush the whole thing. He's like, but no, no, it'll look, it'll look it'll look like it's been used. Like the second you walk away from polished stainless, it looks terrible. So so brush the whole thing. He's like, I uh uh brush it.
Looks great. Yeah. Yeah, well stainless. You never when you go to uh get like um stainless stuff manufactured on the you know down the district in the street, they're like, is this residential or is this uh commercial? And it and they always try to put a higher finish on the residential, but then it ends up looking like garbage anyway.
Yes, brushed, but just brush it. So you mentioned the pizzeria. Do you want to say anything more about the so you did your stretch pop-up? We did stretch pop-up, yes. Right.
And then now you're can you're what do you want to say about what's going forward? Uh we're try we're we're we're working diligently on um bringing a uh stretch brick and mortar pizzeria uh to a neighborhood near you soon. What kind of oven are you gonna use? We're gonna use a deck of an electric deck oven. You do you want to talk about the brand or you don't have the picked out yet?
Uh I think we're gonna go with the Pizza Master. Yeah. Yeah, we're pretty pretty enthusiastic about that. Nice. And how how tall are those decks?
Uh well we have we'll we'll be using a three-deck oven. Um the the the the bottom of the upper deck, if that makes sense. With the door open, I think is it's six sits at sixty inches. Right, but how b how deep is each like our pizza? What's the height of each deck?
The pizza decks are real short, right? Yeah, they're I think what is that, eight inches, I think. Oh, it's pretty high though. Yeah. I mean it's enough for the phone.
I have the specs in my phone, right? Are they basically like like the way it's about 70 inches wide and 50 deep. And what's what's gonna be your standard uh diameter? Pizza? Yeah.
Um probably a 12-inch. I mean, I think that there's a lot to like. I mean, uh, yeah, 12-inch, 12-inch pizza. There's a lot to like about a 12-inch pie. Um, and we're doing a New York style dough, and I think that uh nobody really makes New York style pizza that small.
You know, typically New York pizzas are 18 to 20s. Right. Um, but I think that uh, you know, those those pies don't deliver well, and I think that a New York style pizza in in a in in a smaller size um will actually be a great pie for delivery. We'll hold up to delivery, won't won't arrive in a box all soupy and steamy and gross. Soupy and steamy.
Um yeah. You're gonna make a pizza soup? Uh I hadn't thought about making pizza soup, although I do have an idea for a French onion soup pizza. That sounds great. So that sounds great.
But you don't you don't want to do a like you know going back to WD days, you'd be making a pizza consume and then you would serve breadsticks with a pizza consomme. Something like, yeah. Well, you know, we tried hot dog consomme at WD. It was terrible. It was disgusting.
Do you know what the best hot dog consomme is? Go out to the go out to the dirty dog folks, pay them for a cup of their water. That's what we did. And then we clarified it. Yeah.
And it was gross. I've tasted it. It tastes like hot dog. It was gross. It's pretty gross.
I've tasted their water. It didn't go on the menu. Uh yeah. The worst thing I've ever liquored is actually worst. One of the worst liquors I've ever made was hot dog liquor.
Yeah, that doesn't sound good either. It was bad. Yeah. Yeah. Uh Brady Vicker wants to have more one donuts.
Brady Vicker uh wants to know more about how you approach developing your cake donuts. It seems like 99 per uh percent of places use a mix. It's more like 100%, right? I mean, he's right. Yeah, anyway.
How hard is it to go your own way? You can go your own way. Go your own way. You you sure can. Yeah.
Um, how hard is it? I mean, if you're well, again, what's your intent? Is your intent to open a donut shop or is your intent to make delicious donuts at home? Because um if you're gonna make donuts at home, I think your the bigger hurdle is what are you gonna fry them in? How are you gonna make sure you don't hurt yourself?
Frying again, frying frying's hard. Uh you need a lot of oil to fry donuts properly. You need a big pot with a relatively deep amount of oil so that you don't lose temperature. You know what I mean? You don't want that thermal drop because that that equals absorption, that equals a greasy donut, that equals a fail in my mind.
So the thing that the thing that you have professionally is a huge thermal mass because you're dealing with like minimum 40, 50 pounds of oil. You know what I mean? But but commercial donut fryers are extremely shallow. Yeah and the the heating element and the donut are very close together, unlike French Fry Fryers, which are massive, like just sort of black holes of oil where there's supposed to be, you know, the fries the the stuff's supposed to drop to the bottom, blah, blah, blah. Right.
You're not you're not poisoning your oil the way though that you are with a French fry fryer. You don't need the cold zone. You poison the oil with chocolate donuts. Chocolate donuts screw the oil up because the cocoa and all that. Anyway, to answer this person's question, how did I go about developing a cake donut?
Well, there's not a lot of literature, unlike pizza where there's a thousand recipes online, a billion recipes online. There's nothing online to make a real cake donut, because a cake donut is made from a batter. A yeast donut is made from a dough. And that's not up for debate. Cake donut, cake, cake, batter, cake donut.
But most online recipes for cake donuts are rolled and punched because they make them too so stiff so that they don't blow out. Correct. Because the idea of because it's hard to deposit batter in a circle at 325 to 350 degrees and not cause your home to become a problem. So uh to again, to answer the question, what I did was I tried as best I could to find recipes of which there are not many. And I just, you know, experimented, experiment, experiment.
And and you know, the recipe that you got the day dues closed was somewhere close to a 60 version 68, something like that. Do you remember when uh way back in the day when I called the Belshaw brothers and I asked them for an actual recipe, and they're like, I don't understand. Yeah. And they went down to the basement and found some like million-year-old person that they just like threw like food scraps to to keep alive and they scraped up some Yeah. I mean, most places use a mix.
I mean, I would say, and there are some good ones out there. There are definitely some good ones. A lot of them are are not great, but um, you know, you can tell a mix on a cake donut, usually when you break it open in the color, because there's a lot of that yellow coloring to make it feel eggy. Um, but but again, I would say I would tell this, what was this person's name? That was Brady Vicker.
Brady, I would say start with uh your favorite pancake batter and and and and go from there because pancake batter and cake donut batter is very similar. But the thing about a mix, right, is is that my impression, you tell me, my impression of mixes is that they work, they deposit over a much wider range of temperature accurately than someone could accomplish without using like heavily stabilized fats and the right hydrocolloids and all that other stuff. I mean, there was not any of that fancy hydrocolorate stuff in our in our in our in our our ultimate mix. We had some things like corn, you know, corn starches and and things like that in there because they helped with uh milk powder and things like that that helped, which is not a hydrocolite, I understand. Um, but that helped with the crisping and and some of the staling because we were we were wholesaling, and so we need to extend the shelf life.
So some of those things that are in there, a lot of those additives are because donuts are made and held for a period of time. But when you're at home, you're making donuts and eating them. I would say take your favorite pancake recipe, sub out 20, 30% AP for cake flour. That'll give your donut a little bit more tenderness. Um, throw a little bit of milk powder in there if you want.
That'll help with with keeping like an uh a barrier on the oil. It'll also make it real cr crispy. Um, but pancakes and donut, pancake batter and cake donut batter are very similar. So another thing you taught me is that the depositors, so if you ever buy a donut depositor, they're awesome. But they are they're expensive though.
And you can get them can are they still expensive used? Because they used to be real cheap use. You can't find them used. No. But you're talking five, six hundred bucks, which for me is the same one I have.
The Belshaw, yeah, yeah. You can get a brand new one tomorrow for 600 bucks. Well, anyways, I have it, so maybe I'll put it on eBay. So if you uh if you if you are using that what was surprising to me is it's like how you have to keep it full. Like it relies on a certain weight of batter above it to work properly.
It's gravity fed. Yeah. It's a great so, but we were you'd also could catch us, like I if you have that one, you just swing it a few times and and you can push the battery down. You drop four or five swinging around in your arm, drop four or five. Um, yeah.
But have fun with it. Cake donuts are great, are fun to make at home. Sugar, cinnamon, go for it. But yeast donuts are easier to make at home. Uh, it's a process.
You gotta you're gonna make that dough, you gotta let it rest, you gotta punch it, you gotta proof it, you gotta fry it. It's not easy. I don't want to make it sound like cake donut a yeast donuts or a walk in the park. It's a process. Yeah, but I mean, like.
I can make you cake donuts in half an hour. I cannot make you yeast donuts in half an hour. Okay. I could probably get the yeast donut batter ready to go before the oil was up to 10. Okay.
I'm just saying. If you've what's the easiest thing to fry? Beignets, obviously. They don't even have to make like think you make like a yeast dough, cut it into squares and throw it in oil. It's never gonna be it's gonna be greasy.
It's gonna 100%. Right, but it's gonna be. You never had a beignet that wasn't greasy. But but if you're not used to a cake donut batter, not only is it gonna be greasy, it's gonna literally go pff. Make it tight.
Just make a little, I'm telling you, try with start with, go buy some bisquick. Biscuick. Yeah, it's good stuff. Works well. I haven't had bisquick in my I haven't had bisquick.
My mom had bisquick in the 70s, and it was that box was there the entire time of my childhood, I think. It's a good product. I can't I can't say that. You know what I used to make? The first thing, one of the first things I used to make, because you know, uh both of us grew up only only children, right?
I mean, like my my parents got divorced and remarried, and so like I started having brothers and sisters when I was like 16. But by that time you're pretty much baked, right? I used to, in the 70s, they used to make these things called pan shakes. Do you remember pan shakes? No.
So a pan shake was pancake batter, so basically a pancake mix, like biscuit, basically, right? In a little milk carton, right? Okay. Right. And we had a plastic sack on the inside.
So what you do is is you would open the pan shake carton, you would dump in the liquid, and then you'd c close it and roll it over. So, you know, and then shake the hell out of the bag. You didn't even have to use a fork and or you know, this food. And then that's how you would make pancakes. And that's how I started.
That was one of the very first things that I would was cooking. I mean, you can buy biscuit does sells at now. You can buy a biscuit that you just unscrew the cap, pour the liquid in and shake it. Yeah. It's good for kids, it's good for kids to start with.
I love pancakes. I made them this morning. Yeah. I make only giant pancakes. I can't be bothered to make a lot of little pancakes.
I like, I like silver dollars and normal size. They're fine. Uh mine are the entire width of my crampus crate makers. So how big is that? That's big.
But that's one. I make one pancake and then I slice it into, think of it as like the pizza of pancakes. I really like taking pancakes and putting them in the toaster. Um where pancakes, the Achilles heel of a pancake is that it doesn't stay crispy for very long. But if you put them in the toaster briefly, it's exceptional.
Because you get some crunch, you get the exterior crunch of a pancake, and then you get the steamy cake of the center. I think it's a under underappreciated scent. Steamy cake. All right. Justin Cheryl writes in question.
What uh what do you what do you think of the donut business now that you've been in and out of it? Not about the delicious product, but what it's like to serve a product with such a short lifespan with chain competition and mostly morning sales compared to pizza or fine dining. Donut business is hard. That's what I would say. It's hard.
It's obviously volume-driven. Uh shelf life is an issue. Donut business is hard. Yeah. Yeah.
Uh Jermaine Dupre Fixet writes, uh, what's your go-to quick meal for a home to make it home? My go-to quick meal. I mean, if if it's six forty-five and I haven't started yet, I keep uh Trader Joe's steam dumplings in the freezer. And um, again, throw in a pot of rice, make some quick pickles, salt, sugar, equal parts, cucumbers, um, and then I'll throw the the Trader Joe's steam dumplings. That's they're they're excellent.
Put 'em in a pan, a little bit of oil, get them brown, throw in four ounces of water, put the lid on. Delicious. I like a Trader Joe's dumpling. They're very solid. You brown first and then steam?
Yes, always. Uh Map from Mystic, uh, what's your current pizza skin formula? Uh sorry, no can do. Yeah, yeah. Is that what is that what you guys call it in the basil?
You call them skins? Well, no, to skin a pizza is is that when you stretch a pizza, you it's called skinning. You you you you shape it into a long flat circle. But um, you know, uh I I I th I I don't think that it we're quite I'd be happy to share a recipe, not the current recipe. Yeah, I see.
I see. I see. Uh well you want to what what hydration are you at right now? How about that? Um I I like uh sixty-three.
Sixty-three is a good number, sixty-three percent hydration. I think how long. Um well, you know, the idea of you mean how long does it ferment for? Yeah. I think there's a lot of work still to be done between uh long-term cold fermentation.
There's not a lot of r science on that subject. And so it's not totally clear if you can't get the same results flavor profiles from a single day RT bulk versus a long cold, like bald bulk. Um and there seems to be two schools of thought on that. Um I think again, sixty-three percent hydration and then but again, th you gotta have some fun with the flour because flour is what is gonna change everything in there. You know what I mean?
It's water, it's flour, it's yeast, it's maybe diastatic malt, maybe not, it's sugar, maybe, maybe not. Um I don't think there's much more to it than that. You say oil, are you oiling yours or no? Oil or not. Uh yeah, I have olive oil in in our dough.
You like Captain Greasy's stuff, right? Nick Coleman, you like his stuff. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Uh Brandon Bird writes uh since uh Dave and Wiley are both uh philosophy majors, I wonder if they might comment on how, if at all, their study of philosophy influenced their approach to food and cooking.
What do you think? Uh John Stuart Mill, greatest good for the greatest number of people. Really? You're you're uh you're a uh utilitarian at heart? Yeah, sure.
The greatest good for the greatest number of people. Uh since I would went to college when I was 18, like a lot of people do, uh, and was a boy, I read a lot of Nietzsche. So I don't really think it affected the way I live now. That's a lot. All those like rich German guys that were angry and lived alone, they didn't they they didn't they that was an unusual.
I don't I don't I don't relate to them. He ended up like he ended up losing his mind and like pooping pooping in his chest of drawers in his sister's attic towards the end of his life. So like it didn't end well for him. Doesn't end well for anyone. I would not like Howard Hughes.
Yeah. Oof, yeah, but not as rich. Uh Chef, why don't you like wood fire? Would you rather sell pizza in high volume or less volume? And what would determine the difference?
Uh would you come is uh would you come this is from Prudencia restaurant? Would you come to our restaurant if we saved enough dough for you? Which of those questions shall I address? Just do them all. Do them all.
Why don't I like wood fire? Well, I presumably four pizza ovens. Um I I didn't say I don't like wood fire for pizza ovens. I said the type of pizza I make does not go into a wood fired oven. Um I make, you know, tip typically lower hydration doughs that that are are better suited to to deck oven.
I mean I I'm I'm chasing a New York style pizza. New York style pizza doesn't go in a uh a wood burning oven. What do you think about the coal like Lombardi's? Uh I think that's del I mean that Lombardi's pizza's delicious, but that's not that's that is okay. That's New York style pizza.
Then we're now we're getting granular, and you're talking about New York style pizza, New York pizza history, uh cultural anthropology, blah, blah, blah. But I I have I the type of pizza I make doesn't really fare well in a coal oven. I have no problem with that uh as a concept. I think it's delicious. A lot of New Haven pizza is also coal-fired and delicious.
Um what do I think about the pizza business? What was uh uh would you rather sell in high volume or low volume? And what would be the difference making you choose? Presumably meaning that you would use different kind of specs or different I mean I I I'd like to have a pizza business that was successful, so there's got to be some sort of volume. Uh you know what I mean?
I think uh I I'm better selling a hundred pizzas than three. So uh I'm not sure that I totally say unless the three are really big and really expensive. Really expensive. Um and would I come to their place if they saved me some dough? Meaning like they typically run out by the time I'm there.
I mean they want you to come make a pizza there. Uh where is it? I don't know. We'll look it up. Uh sure.
Yeah, I'd love to come. By the way. Airfare included? I'm gonna bring uh I'm gonna bring gold leaf and I want I want like fluttering gold leaf on my pizza or no love. Uh yeah, what we'll do is we'll mix it with bonito flakes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And put it on you have like a gilded. I actually like that look. The waving vanito flake. I have a I I've been dying to put bonito flakes on a pizza.
I think it would be super cool. Uh I'm sure it's been done. But I had it in uh where was I? It was Japan, I think I had it. And uh and it was the pizza was not good.
But the effect of the vanito flake super on point. Rachel Karen writes in how can one thicken gravy at Thanksgiving using a hydrocoloid instead of flour for uh celiac guests and where can it be purchased? And I'll add to this that I'm assuming that Rachel doesn't want the gravy to look transparent like a cornstarch thickened gravy. So look like a gravy, but use a different hydrocolloid. Uh I I would say probably your friend is Xanthan gum is your friend.
It is the gateway hydrocoloid as they say. Um it's probably the best way to thicken that. Uh I mean, are you are we using reduction? Like I mean, again, that's you don't want to overreduce it. So let's say you were going to take a standard like stock that you know is maybe self-gelling but not like a glass, right?
So, like, I mean a little bit of Santa, but you never go over like you never go over like two tenths on a gravy, right? Because you don't want it to look jiggly diggly. You're not Spanish. Uh no, but I think that you could get the viscosity that you want in a gravy um from Xanthango. But what would you do to add the opacity?
What would you add that adds opacity to it? Because cornstarch doesn't have the right look. You like I'm assuming we want gravy to look like gravy. Gravy looks, and John and I, we've had this discussion. To me, gravy looks like what about what about some emulsified fat.
I mean, I would add the opacity. Yeah, it might come out as some might like Well, again. If you're making if you're making proper gravy gravery, if you're making proper gravy, there is emulsified fat in the process. It's reducing gelatin is emulsifying the oils that you used in the pan. Um I I would I would say Xanthan gum or a cornstarch.
I disagree with you. I think cornstarch is a good Scoffia was right. Cornstarch is the future. He liked arrowroot though, didn't he? Uh I think he liked cornstarch too, no?
Arrowroots are also good. High amylase though. If you use arrowroot, it's gonna gel a lot harder when it cools. Like a lot harder. Correct.
Um, we have uh one minute 28. Benjamin uh Dweck writes in. I've been fortunate enough to come across some good quality uh Turkish selep powder. Any tips on a reliable way to make selep danderma? Can I adapt any old ice cream recipe, other uses for beyond the traditional hot drink?
Uh you have a lot, do you ever make so uh Benjamin? There's things that are marketed in Turkey as selep powder that aren't selep powder that are made for the drink, and then there's the actual orchid uh root that's made for the ice cream, and they're not the same, they don't act the same. When you're making selep ice cream, it's uh it must be heated, so you treat it like a like a like a hot disperse it and then hydrate it, uh to cool the base down, and you have to physically beat the selep after it's frozen and keep it cold, so you can't just make the ice cream and unless you have a very serious ice cream machine, it it is hard to churn, right? Just do it with guargum. You'll get close enough.
Well, you need like guar plus uh I forget what my old mix was that really gets a selepy snap. But go go go find it on the cooking issues. I I did I have a bunch of recipes for it. And people also used to use um conjac. Uh Little Xanthan.
Uh Little Xanthan. Uh, what's the deal with non-aluminum baking powder? It was mentioned by Rose on the show that it could have a ruinous taste. Is that true? Uh, should I switch to one of the non-aluminum brands?
Uh no, I think she was saying that non aluminum has SAPP, which can have a bitter taste, like some of the double acting that are aluminum free. I think she didn't like the flavor of. I love sap. That was the that's that's the best baking powder for donuts. Cake donuts, sap, sodium acid pyrophosphate.
Donut cake donuts, friend. All right, well, there you have it. Cooking issues. Thanks, Wiley. Thank you.
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