Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from the heart of Manhattan. Rockefeller Center, New York City joined as usual with John behind me. How are you doing, John? Doing great, thanks.
Yeah? How's the restaurant world treating you? Great. Got an A on the DOH review the other night, Friday night. Oh wow.
That was exciting, yeah. Happy. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah.
Hey, hey. You know, it's like uh, you know, well, anyway. It's like no one's ever happy with anything but an A, though. It's not like Yeah. You know.
Well, didn't get a single, literally nothing wrong with the kitchen or any of the food. No, nanny, nanny, nanny. Oh, wait, so you're blaming the FOH. Typical Chef Weasel blaming the front of house. It's they got one of the three things was on them.
Oh man. It's so typical. I didn't think you'd become one of those guys, John. All those comps you got at the bar and you're still ragging on the FOH. All the snacks they get.
Oh, okay. It's totally geez Louise. Oh man. Uh got Joe Hazen rocking the panels. How are you doing?
I'm doing great, man. I'm so glad everyone's here in the studio. Yeah. Majority of us. Oh, calling out the calling out the three people who aren't.
I wish we could merge the West to the East one day. It would be amazing. It would be nice if we had uh transporter beams. You ever read uh Reasons and Per uh Persons by Derek Parfitt, the uh the the thought experiment uh philosophy book? No, I haven't.
Yeah, it's about a lot of it is about transporter beams, and they talk about transporter beams like Star Trek. And you're like, oh, that sounds great. And he's like, yeah, but what happens if they forget to dematerialize you on the one side and then they rematerialize you on the other side, and then there's two of you, and then you go up and kill the one that didn't get me dematerialized. Are you doing anything wrong? I love that idea.
I I I I I I'm always perplexed about like how they're actually decoding the correct way. Like, why isn't your arm like coming out of your hip or something like that? Well, if you've watched Willy Wonka, you know Mike TV gets uh host. You know, that's right. I forgot about that.
Yeah, yeah. And you know, back in the day they they broke people into like bigger chunks. It was only a million pieces. He flew over your head in only a million pieces. Which is, you know, ridiculous.
Uh all right. I don't know what coast you're on, uh Mr. Molecules. Where are you, Jack? I'm still in DC.
Actually, two more weeks here, this week and next week, DC. All right. All right. And we got Nastasi Lopez in the great state of Connecticut. How's how's you doing?
Good. Uh Jack's gonna see me this weekend. Oh yeah? He's coming up to coming up to the uh up the coast. Nice.
All right. Uh we got in Vancouver Island in the upper, upper, upper, upper, upper, left, left. Uh Quinn, how you doing? Hey, I'm good. Yeah.
And today's special guest here to talk about her relatively new book. Relatively new, relatively new. Yeah, this year. Yeah. Mayumo, uh, Filipino American uh desserts remixed.
We have uh Abby Balingett. How are you doing? Hello, I'm good. I'm happy to be here. I'm happy that you are here.
You came at their at the recommendation of uh McNally Jackson, which is you know uh one of our two favorite bookstores. Yes, yes, you know. I'm so grateful for them. I did my like book launch and I had a signing there, and it was like the first time I'd ever signed books, and I was like, I'm trying to make sure signatures, right? And I was like stressing out, and like they were so lovely and so sweet.
So, Malin, thank you so much for having me. So, what would uh what'd you go for signature wise? I went with, you know what? Now people can forge my signature because this is what it's on my legal documents. Um with uh Abigail with a B at the end and a big A loop and I mean, I don't know how people do their full like first last name.
Some people do like full-on cursive, and I think cursive is a lost art. Yeah. I think we've forgotten how to do it in the past. Uh they didn't teach my son that. He's 18 and he just didn't even learn it.
They didn't teach it. Yeah, they didn't teach it. I mean, he's like, what do you need to know that for? You know what I mean? Yeah, seriously.
How do they make signatures? They just have print. I don't know, but when was the last time? Like all official documents are signed on a computer anyhow. A docusign.
Yeah. It's ridiculous. And you know, uh, I I just do the big old D. Do you carry a Sharpie with you? That's like the author trick.
Yeah, it's in my bag. I think well, actually, I I just do uh I just do this one, that's it. Big D. A big D. Big D.
Yeah, big D. Although that was actually not my nickname. There was another guy I worked with for years whose nickname was Big D. Uh what was his signature? I never I don't know his signature.
His signature is probably neat. He was from Long Island. Oh, yeah, probably. Yeah, his signature is probably neat. But then I also draw a little elf character, which is kind of like my thing.
Oh if I have the time. I don't always have the time, but that's that's my like logo character. People need to see this. Well, hopefully you'll sign something of theirs. Yeah.
That's really good. If you come get me. Also, like uh I have a so you know if if I mean I mispronounce everything and I also uh I forget people's names and I misspell everything. So like um signing things makes me extraordinarily nervous. You can't just cross out names.
No, no, especially especially with like a fat old Sharpie, you know what I mean? So like uh uh I always uh I always ask people like to have me write I carry a separate piece of paper and I write their name on the piece of paper first and I'm like like this and then like yeah. Oh, because they how how do they how do they oh they they they j-o-h n you? Or J H Owen. J.
Jo. John. I kind of like that. That's kind of a good name. Wow.
First for everything. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, is that a name anywhere that I'm not? I don't think I've ever seen a J H O N.
No, I don't think I have either. It sounds like it could be real. Yeah. I've seen it spell that way more than once. Like Nordic or something?
I don't know. Something. I don't know. I can't place it. I just, if I saw it, I'd be like, okay.
Yeah. You know, okay. All right. So what are we doing? Speaking, John, uh, what what are we what are we doing?
First of all, why don't you talk if you're listening live, you can call in your questions to uh 917-4101507. That's 917-410-1507 here in the studio. If you are a Patreon uh person and a live listener and why don't you tell them how to sign up and what they get? Patreon.com slash cooking issues. You get access to a bunch of cool things.
Discounts with people we like to work with, including an upcoming discount with Edward's Aged Meats, which we're super excited about. Uh the usual, you know, discount with author's books at being sold at Kitchen Arts and Letters. Um, you know, a bunch of other great things. Dave has been posting a bunch of little private projects. He's been working on Patreon.
So yeah, a lot of great reasons to join. Um yeah, Patreon.com slash cooking issues. Yeah, if you want to make an overly expensive aluminum cold press juicer, join the Patreon and you can get my shopping list. Yeah. Yeah.
It's that thing's almost done. But I have to say this. So uh sorry, sorry, Abby, I have to mention this because like this is a huge news week for uh Booker and Dax. We have finally launched the freaking spinzall pre-sale. So it's our culinary centrifuge.
You know, it's mainly for bars. Yeah. Not me, like chefs using two. You know, John uses it. Oh.
Yeah, you know, but of course, John's a forward-looking chef. John's not working. You know, he's not a jamoke. You know what I mean? Uh so you know.
Anyway. So yeah, it went on, it went on pre-sale and uh we're doing pretty well, right, Quinn. Yeah, we're doing really well. Yeah, yeah. All right.
Well, uh, remember folks. We only have like 130 left, right? Yeah, yeah, of the uh original, uh, yeah, of that 500. Listen, get your order in. You gotta get people.
I'll say this. Get your order in because like we will not probably have units left over after we tell the factory what to make. So even after we make so we're supposed to we need so Abby, here's how it works. I need we need to sell 500 to make any at all. Right.
499, the factory's like, no, thank you. Go by. You know what I mean? So 500 is the number, like to to open the door. But then after that 500, they'll let us make more in the initial production run.
Right. So we can st we need 500, but then we still need still need, you know, you could put more in up until the last day that we have to put the order in. And we don't know yet what the last day we have to put the order in. But once you put the order in, after that, it's like um, you know, a month and a half, two months of production, and then another month to throw it across the water. So it's like once that date hits, that's your last day to pre-order and get one of this uh batch.
And we don't know when the next one's gonna be, John. Do we know when the next one's gonna be? No. No. It's could be your only opportunity forever.
Could be your only opportunity forever if you want to spend things, which is why they're like lay's potato chips. You gotta buy like two of those suckers, right, Stas? Yeah. Yes. Yeah, they still come with great customer service.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the the patrons already know about this. Yeah. So by the time this episode goes out on Friday, the people listening should pre-order right away.
Yeah, did that uh did that episode where I showed it on the Dave Chang show ever get aired? I'm stupid at looking stuff up. I don't know, whatever. Uh it did, but there's no video. There's no video there, then why did I do video?
What the hell is this? Wow. Wow. You know. Life is like getting hit with a bag of oranges.
The bruisings on the inside. Um so uh is next week a no tangent Tuesday, or or what do we got? What do we got next week? Who do we got next week? I believe so, yeah.
No, I believe it's no tangent. All right, so for people that have uh, you know, non non uh related Patreon questions, we'll get you next week. And we'll do more spins while talking and we'll save that for later. So uh Abby, the uh I'm supposed to I've been told I'm supposed to abbreviate this section, but this is the section where we all talk about any interesting kind of food thing of the jigs from the past week. Do you have anything interesting last week?
Ooh, yeah. So I went to pop up at Edie's Grocer in Greenpoint, and they had a collab with Waldi Reyes, uh, who's this great Filipino chef. So it's like a Filipino Lebanese combo like shared communal uh meal, and there was like a falafelumpia. Uh-oh, it's like whole branzino with like amazing rice just made with like coconut water and like nuts and like herbs and bok choy. It was so so good.
I like still think about that dinner. It happened like literally last week, and I'm like, I still miss it. It's a good that's a that's a good story. Wait, uh Jack, do you have anything? You always go to a restaurant and you're like, I had something, but then I didn't like it and won't.
I mean, I don't know. I I had a a burger on a pretzel bun last night, and uh in years. So that's not very interesting, but uh listen, pretzel buns. The pretzel buns they're messy, but they're delicious. Next time, so you did this at home.
No, no, no, I didn't have it at home. Pretzel buns, in my opinion, that the commercially available ones, the pretzilla ones, are good. A little bit doughy, a little bit doughy. Just a little bit doughy. A little bit dough.
I like uh, but and you have to put your own salt on it. So I usually I uh I like the gildalily, like I'm you know, big at gilding lilies, so I uh I like to put salt and caraway on that so that it's kind of like a pretzel halfway to cumul a cumul roll. Oh see, that's that's a smart idea. Yeah, well, that's what I'm here for, man. I'm here for you for like little little smart or dumb hacks.
Yeah, yeah. Uh what about you, uh Quinn or Stas, you guys got anything? Uh I I made four versions of my chocolate gelato and did a taste comparison. Yeah, and was there a big difference? So uh well, my goal is to actually take different parameters of in gr of ingredients and end up with very similar flannel gelatos.
So that was sort of the test. Okay, that's an odd, that's an odd, but you know, I'm there for you, Quinn. I'm there. Let us know how it works out. Well the idea is that uh that no matter what chocolate you use, yeah, you still end up with a similar result.
Yeah, as long as it's Valrona. No. I didn't use Valrona. Yeah, yeah. You're not gonna I'm sorry, dude.
I mean, maybe in a gelato, I don't know. It depends on a gelato, but you're like, guess what? I melted down Hershey bars, and it was just as good as the one I made with Manjari. Not gonna happen. You know what I mean?
I'm using a local chocolate. Uh all right, whatever. Well, who's the local uh Vancouver Island chocolate? Uh I'm gonna be the island. I think it's BC.
It's called uh Wild Mountain. Good. Really good. All right. Okay.
I have not had it, so I cannot make any any judgments. Huh? All right. Um so uh Abby, let's talk about this book. Yeah.
So uh on the cover of it, you have this uh like uh like a like a hollow hollow baked Alaska thing, which does look it looks pretty looks pretty good. Thank you very much. Thank you. Uh but a lot of what you're doing here, you you do a lot of uh desserts with it's not the whole thing, but you do a lot of desserts with some savory stuff chucked in, which is kind of interesting. Uh so I'm trying to figure out where I want to start because I I don't know whether I should go down I I'll ask the user questions, users.
Patreon, Patreon. Sorry, Patreon people. You're our you're our people. Users. What a jerk.
You know why? It's because I've been uh dealing with uh the factory a lot with making the spinz all and I have to talk about issues that users are gonna have of the equipment. Yeah. And so and that's kind of the only language that I can deal with. And so like the people that I'm trying to serve then become users instead of experience and all that.
Yeah, right. Right. So no offense, Patreon people. Um so yeah, before I go down uh before I go down this cute huge rabbit hole, I'll ask their questions first. All right.
Okay. Can you discuss the uh various uh um I guess the flavors of the different uh vinegars from uh the the Datu Puti Corporation and uh and and what dishes you would use ones uh best I only have the the dark one the uh the uh there's a little bit of soy in that one? Uh the sou uh what is it, the uh the molasses one, the sukang uh Iloca one. That's the only one I have in my house. But it's great too.
By the way, my my dad asks this question. Oh, okay. Your dad has okay, this is very deep cut question. I mean, I feel like there are certain ones when I was growing up, like the ones that have like the peppers in the bottom and like onion and like everything preserved in there that kind of adds more of like spiciness. I love like the spiced uh dati putti vinegars.
Um but honestly, like when you use either coconut or sugar palm, I think there's like totally different like flavor profiles there. And so, you know, the the Filipino vinegar cabinet is kind of diverse, and I would say the only way to know is to try. And so if your dad can go to the Filipino supermarket and try it, I highly recommend that. But it's just that like sasawan, which is like condiment in Tagalog, is just like such a big part of just the everyday eating ritual where you don't want to like oversalt your food or you don't want to like you just like have things where people can customize to their palate and what they like. And so that's why I have like we have fermented shrimp paste and we have the vinegar, the suka and stuff, so like we can add to our you know personal uh taste.
But is there any reason to buy their like kind of their bog standard vinegar is pretty neutral, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. But I do say, like, I I know like this is kind of just like snobbish, but like I would say if you don't use Filipino vinegar, you don't use Filipino slice sauce in adobo, you can kind of taste the difference. There's something harsh about just like regular Heinz white distilled vinegar that you I don't want to recommend to anybody, right?
You know, uh, you know what I have in my pantry that you have to be super duper careful for is the with is the kind of like northern European like 25 and 30 percent vinegar. You ever use that stuff? Oh it's great. Like how in what way? Like super super acidic?
Yeah, it's it's uh so like you know, your standard vinegar is like somewhere like around five, six percent, right? Oh, you know, uh four between four and six, I would guess, right? Vinegar. You know, they usually write on the bottle what the acidity is, right? And so that's how I do my math, right?
What because I, you know, whatever. That's kind of that's my shtick. Anyway, so uh, but a lot of times I want to add vinegar, but the w I need the water base to stay low so that I can I have more leeway. So I started buying this crap. Nils, my like Nils Norin, who I used to cook with at the French Culinary Institute, this he's like the Swedes, we only use this super high grade vinegar, right?
Because it's distilled. So once it's distilled, who the hell cares? So like why am I paying for water when I want vinegar? But you have to be very careful. This 30% stuff is like five times as powerful as vinegar.
So it's very easy just to go bloop it a bloop and then you're toast, like toast, you know what I mean? At that percentage, you could use a like acetone or like nail polish removers. I mean, it's it's getting rough. It's getting like, yeah, so I don't keep it like with my normal vinegar, I keep it like high shelf, and it's like in a weird shaped bottle. So yeah.
And I have you want a real nasty glacial acetic, which is like, you know, lab grade, is like corrosive, and you want to stay the hell away from it. Like if you drip it on like your concrete floor to like etch into the concrete, it's hardcore. Right. Yeah. But you know, things have its uses.
Like maybe sometimes you don't want to have water. You just want to add vinegar. And more you know. But uh I think distilled vinegar has its place. Yeah.
It's just, you know, right. It's not as smooth and round, whatever. I'm uh okay. It's all right. I mean, I use a lot of pure acids too in like bar and stuff to like uh when it's not an ingredient when it's an adjustment.
You know what I'm saying? Anyway, so that's that's all I'm gonna say about that. All right. Uh and from how you think so it's wolf greag. What do you think?
Wolf Greg. What do you think? Wolf Greg. Wolf Greg. Greg.
I'm not look, I'm I'm not in an age where I can like just read letters as numbers. Like, I don't do my passwords that way. I'm like, you know, you know, whatever. All the all the A's or eights, whatever it is, that's not the way I operate, people. Okay.
Uh any suggestions, uh, and describe it for people that don't know. Uh any suggestions for making uh Otop? Is that how you pronounce it? The cookie? Oh, yeah, that is one of the recipes I I did not make for the book.
But I do think that's one of those like biscuits that are like Filipino, um, and they're they're just like, I you know what? This is one of the things I feel stumped because I've never made it for myself before. Um, but I feel like so bad. I feel like, oh no, I feel I failed this person. But isn't it basically like a puff pastry that you roll up, slice, and smash and cook?
Yeah, yeah. It's basically, it feels like so much like yeah, a palmiere kind of situation. And so I would say, like, in that way, you could just like literally get puff pastry and kind of knock it out. But the biggest fear I feel like with that kind of uh dessert is that you need to have like a glass of milk and a glass of water to wash that down, because like it's like similarly, like you could just like uh choke on some crumbs and die, like not to be like very morbid here on the show, but like, so just be careful and try. I would experiment with like at least if you want to go down the like pre-made puff pastry route and see.
But yeah. For years I resisted pre-made puff pastry, and then I was like, why? Nobody cares. Nobody cares. Uh no, who's gonna who's gonna be like lamination police?
Like, okay, my bad, I didn't laminate that. Well, like I think everyone in their life, not everyone, people who there's a category of people that I am one of where you go through this period where you have to like do it. You know what I mean? And then you're like, which one of the methods am I gonna use? How am I gonna make the detromp?
And you know what I mean? And you're like, and then you're like, you know what? Machines do this really well. Yeah, you know, people do this really well. And then, you know, whatever.
And then, you know, I used to do puff pastry because all of my onion tarts are uh all my old onion tarts were not pie based, they were puff paste based, right? You know, like kind of like freeform puff paste based onion tarts. That used to be like my standard like I have a party, it's onion tart time, giant pan, onions forever, caramelize them down, you know, cheese, cream, egg, maybe bacon, depending on who's there. Done. Puff paste, done, right?
Done. Good warm, good cold, good the next day. Doesn't matter. Anyway, uh, and then I was like, yeah, I just stopped making it. I was like, F this, no.
Yeah. Yeah. You know? Uh although I think the in the Instagram era, people are like, they want to see how high they can puff it. So they do all this stuff.
Yeah, yeah. I even notice that with biscuits. Like, people are going like mile high biscuits, it has to be like this big, bigger than your face. Well, what are your thoughts? What are your thoughts on a biscuit?
First of all, you have very, very clear brownies. I have to say, I'm the only person I know that I like a fudgy brownie. I like a fudge. I like, don't anyone say I don't like a fudgy brownie, but I also like a cakey brownie. And you hate a cakey brownie.
I know I'm a hater. I'm sorry. I do like the brownies. You hate it so much that you jack your temperature down to 325 and bake your brownies for a long, long time, and then like, you know, you throw throw throw candies with rice paper on them. But it's like, we'll talk about your brownies.
Yeah. But like, why why the h why the hatred of the cake? I don't know. I just think if I want cake, I'll get cake. I don't want a cakey, like I feel like I associate it with dryness, and I like hate a dry brownie.
And I think it's just something about that like box makes brownie that really like is naturally fudgy, where I'm like, that's what I want. I think it's a nostalgia, but also like I don't know. I've had a I've had a couple bad brownies in my life, and so usually they're cakey. I don't remember. Are you uh are you a a cocoa, a chocolate, or a mixed person?
I'm a cocoa and the chocolate added at the end to fold in. So coco, yeah. Are you a chocolate person? And it's we're we're gonna have these arguments. I don't know, but like I'm I'm usually in the minority, but brownies was the first recipe I memorized in the 70s.
And no one um taught me how to make them. And so like sometimes I would melt the butter, sometimes I would cream the butter in, sometimes it was always butter because even though the recipe said shortening, I didn't know what shortening was. And my mom said it's like butter. I was like, Mom, what's shortening? She's like, it's like butter.
And so I was like, I'll use butter. You know what I mean? How old were you at the sun? Eight. Eight?
I was uh an only child, and um both my parents worked, right? And so like I had a lot of time to myself. Yeah, I had a lot of time to myself and ate by a Pyrex glass pan. And so it was like, you know, uh that's that's my life. Anyway, so like I made them and they never I would alter it so they came out differently all the time, but I developed a like for all the styles.
But the early 70s recipe that I had was a uh two ounces of baker's brand unsweetened chocolate. You ever seen that one? It's got that old grandma on the cover. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's way more expensive than it deserves to be for its quality.
Yeah. Like so much more like the expensive than it deserves to be for its quality. But that is the the little one ounce squares of my childhood. Aw. Yeah.
I don't buy it anymore though, because now I do the math. Now I'm like, how much sugar is in this chocolate that I'm buying? Okay. And then I like through the math and I figure it out. You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah. Anyway. Well, you want to talk about your brownies now? Might as well. We've already talked about them.
That's uh I don't know how we talk from like, I guess, biscuits to brownies, but well, because you were saying that everyone like makes a mile high biscuit. I asked you how you liked your biscuits, and then all I could think about was that we're gonna have an argument about brownies. I mean, I do like I I like a high biscuit, but I think and whenever whatever gets it done that's like flaky layers, it doesn't necessarily have to be that tall. Like if we get the gist of it, it's like you just want a bite that's like satisfying. Nastasia hates this conversation because she doesn't like biscuits, but do you like brownies, Nastasia?
Are you a brownie fan? Yeah, I like brownies. Oh good. But you're a no everyone on the show, I believe because we've had this conversation. Everyone is a no-inclusion person, right?
You don't like nuts. No nuts. Well, that's not true. You like nuts? I don't mind walnuts.
Walnuts? That grew up with I don't know why my mom used to do that, but yeah. Walnuts. Yeah. Okay.
Fine. You ever had Harold McGee's magic walnuts? You ever had Harold McGee's magic walnuts? Oh my God. No.
Oh my God. He has a zero tannin walnut that gets shipped to him by some sort of like walnut magician. And Nastasi and I, one of the times we stayed there at his house, he just put those nuts out and didn't say anything. And we're like, what the hell? Like he's nuts.
They're so good. Right? Remember that, Sus? Uh-huh. Yeah.
Oh my God. And he just walks around. Harold McGee just walks around his house with like magic nuts on the table. Yeah. Magic nuts out all the time.
It's crazy. By the way, I called him about some of your recipes. We'll get into that in a minute. But where were we? We were in bit uh biscuits and brownies.
So with biscuits, I've the first question is are you you're you already said you like flaky? I feel like there's a it goes back and forth between people who like like a more of a drop style, like fluffy, and people who like a flaky, and then people are trying to like kind of combine those two things, but really they're separate products. We're like, what the hell, man? Yeah. So people like, well, you could do it, and then you can put layers of flour in between the droppy stuff and make no listen.
Do a flaky, do a drop. Right, right. I'm thinking red lobster, like the drop biscuit we're talking about. Red lobster, man. That's like, well, you're bringing it back.
Those those people know how to overcook some fish. Oh. We can't hate them for their biscuits, though. People go back. I never like I I never like I don't even remember that.
I just remember like, even as a kid, when it was the fancy place you would go out, the red lobster, they're like, they take a hammer to this fish or what? You know what I mean? Like, you never listen. If you own a red lobster franchise, I'm sure you don't do it this way. Whoever is hearing my voice who owns a red lobster franchise.
But like when you go red lobster, don't get the brook. This is why I always say, like, when you're ordering a mixed seafood platter at most places, unless you know the chef, get the fried version. Right? Yeah. Back me up on this.
Fry it. You don't want some, you don't want someone's like, make sure the fish isn't undercooked. Keep broiling it. Keep broiling it. Comes out like, you know, you pick it up.
Oh, speaking of fish, can I tell one quick story from this weekend? Because so I had to uh I had uh my my son is gonna be a camp, my younger son's gonna be a camp counselor this year at Connecticut, this camp that he's been going to for a long time back when I used to have a place in Connecticut. And there's a small place called River Provisions. It's right on the Connecticut River, about 15 miles up from the mouth. And every year, Shad runs up uh the Connecticut, right?
Which is it's like a it's like a it's like a fish that runs back, you know, from the salt water back up and you catch it, even though it doesn't eat using these spoons, it still strikes, even though it's not eating because it's going up to do its kind of spawning thing. And they're big, and everyone eats the row, but no one eats the meat because it's impossible to fillet because it's got an extra set of bones in it. But it is the most delicious, it's like a super oily, but like a like a like a super oily fish. It's like a giant almost mackerel. Nice, right?
And they're like this. And so, and when you get it, like there's like a couple old ladies who still know how to fillet these things, and once these people die, it's gone. So you what you do is you buy the fillets and you can grill them and they don't go dry, which would make me think of it. You gr you you can grill them, but when you pick up the fillets and you go, you hold under you push your hands underneath it, and they flop apart because these these they take these fillet knives and they run it the long way down the fish like like five times and like flap it out like this and remove all the bones, leaving the skin on intact, and the skin is beautiful. I'll show you guys a picture after the skin's beautiful.
And then uh it's just a great fish, but everyone only thinks about the row. Shad roe. Oh, shad row, yeah, shadow with butter and bacon and parsley, lemon, you know what I mean? It's good though. I mean, shadow's good, but I prefer shad the fish.
And I'm buying it, and it's the last because it's that it's been a short season this year. And the guy at the front of the store, and I literally called them, I was driving by, I was like, You got any shad? He's like, Yes, we just got some shadows. Like, yes, and so I'm gonna I bought it all. I was like, How much do you have?
I'll take it all. And then so like I bought it and I ate it. It was delicious. And the guy at the checkout was like, I don't know, you can eat a bait fish. I was like, shut your mouth.
Shut your mouth, it's not a bait fish. Just because you don't have the skill to bone it, does not make it a bait fish, my friend. Check me out. Wow, you know what I mean? Roasted.
Yeah, anyway, they're delicious. Uh okay, so uh back to uh so that's how we got from biscuits to brownies. There's a fish detour, and we got here. We're here. Yeah, we're here now.
We're we're here. Uh what are you flaky? Well, you wait, you didn't say are you flaky or you or are you fluffy? Flaky. Flaky, huh?
Huh. Because you you're going anti-cakey on most of these. Yeah. Uh okay. Yeah, you got to do it.
I can s I can see the uh, I can see the honor in both styles. Uh although recently I have to say that like uh I have a habit of reading recipes and being like, that's garbage, that doesn't make any difference. And then I try it and I'm like, No, yeah, I'm now a butter grater. I'm now a frozen butter grater. Oh, nice.
Yeah, frozen butter grating is the answer for biscuits. Wow, you can't just like go in with like the little masher anymore. You gotta do it. No, that's what I used to do. I was like, none of this matters.
And I would just like, you know, do it until it looked right, until it looked biscuity. You know what I mean? I would do the same thing, uh, yeah, for for but anyway, yeah. The frozen, I uh now, you know, my son Booker, who uses unconscionable amounts of butter, is like, uh, Dad, why do you keep this in the freezer? Shut up, it's in case I need to make biscuits.
Your reserve. Yeah. Gotta have that biscuit reserve. Uh so let's get back to brownies for a second. Um, because I had written my questions on it.
Well, you described the brownies. Yeah, you described the brown, oh yes, MSG. MSG. Um, there's a five-spice uh tarona steca soy. So tarona steca soy or like uh specifically from my parents' province, like Pampanga, it's like a specialty where it's like nougat, um Spanish influence there.
Um, and it's like cashew, nougat, and usually wrapped in this edible wafer. And that was like the fun thing to be like to fake smoke as a kid and use it like a cigar, but like really it's like nice and like kind of uh crispy, a little chewy. And I make mine to a little bit of five spice, just have a little bit of a kick and a little bit more salt, and then I chop that up on top of the brownie and I stud the brownie surface with that. And it's really beautiful because like the layer on top, you know, like I love brownies. I have that nice shiny layer.
I was gonna ask you about that. Are you like uh do you need that like that glassy layer on top? I need it. I know I did so much, I I researched a lot to figure out how to like achieve that every single time. And I use a combination of like uh brown sugar and also powdered sugar, and I think the powdered sugar dissolves a lot better than I would say like any like regular straight up granulated sugar.
And then another like theory of this is like, oh, if you mix it up with the eggs, it kind of creates like a meringue. Um so that it does create some type of like beautiful, like glossy, crispy top layer, which I really like. Do not serve Abby a dull surface. No, full chocolate, cakey, brownie. You're gonna make her sad.
I feel like this podcast is making sound really picky, but I'm like, no, but like I think there's certain things you have to like stick to your guns and be like, this is what I like and this is what I like. This podcast is about uh is about people achieving the goals that they want. So like discussing like your you know personal predilection, that's what it's all about. Yeah, achieving a it's actually I never really basically. Yeah, being overly picky about things that are inconsequential to most people.
Yeah. But that we care, exactly. Yeah, but that we care about a lot. Yeah, yeah. Uh so yeah, Nastassi and I used to have a motto for our company.
I forget the exact motto, but basically we were trailing edge technology, so we're that thing that's nice to have, but if it falls off the plane, you're still safe. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like those little wingtip things. Yeah.
And you're like, oh, if that fell off the plane, no, we'd be fine. Oh, that's nice to have, right? That's us, Daz, right? Yep, that's our motto. Yeah.
Or whatever. And like everything else we do, it takes a little long to sit. It's not condensed into a motto. Um, but the MSG is in the batter. It's in the batter, yeah.
Yeah, it's interesting. I never really thought about uh powdered sugar having more sugar dissolved in it, right? Because brownies are fairly low moisture, so if you use granulated sugar, it probably doesn't fully dissolve before the bakeout happens, and so it probably won't glass out the same way. I wonder whether the cornstarch in the in the powdered sugar has any probably not because there's already a bunch of starch in it anyway. Yeah, huh?
All right. Uh but the MSG, how much MSG is in it? I think it's about half a teaspoon. Um teaspoon of salt. For a how many stick butter recipe?
Uh there's no butter. No, uh, there's only olive oil and buttons. Olive oil, sorry, I didn't I didn't memorize it. My bad. But how much olive oil?
Um I want to say uh okay, I did this so recently. Maybe it's two-third cup, but I have to double check. Two-third cup, yeah. I have to double check on that. But two-third cup.
Fact check me there. So it's over the it's it's more than so a stick of butter is 113 grams. So it's more than that. Mm-hmm. I think so.
To how much flour? To oh my god. So what's with the olive oil? How do you what what's the what's the olive oil in it? What is that doing for it?
Okay, so olive oil and just regular oil usually in like a brownie recipe allows for more of that chewy, fudgy texture that you don't care that much about, but I do. And that's like, you know, whenever you do box mixed brownies, again, it's like an oil that you use, and that kind of creates the same texture. I never thought about it. Yeah, and olive oil for this, I was this is more of like the savory-toned brownie that we were kind of discussing before. It's just like I want to like really hit the umami.
And so MSG, it's not necessarily like you can taste it at a lot. It's more just like the sensation, like when you bite in the brownie and then it kind of lingers where it's like this mouth watering feel. And literally just like I need it to like I don't know, it's like a nice little hint and it plays well with the five spice and the salt. So what other like uh like what other baked goods? I mean, uh everyone at this point hopefully knows that like every baked good should have salt in it and every ice cream mix should have salt in it.
Speaking of which, how about the salted uh duck egg creme anglaise? Oh, yes, yes. I that was a fun one to come up with. But I think it just so yeah, it edges out the sweetness where it's not like you don't get sick of it, which I think. I don't know.
You don't get any textural issues getting the uh the cooked eggs in uh the not you know the salted duck eggs in with the thing or no? It's it's like it's a yeah, nice. No, it's kind of like you it emulsifies in pretty well, and it's not like you only use the salted duck eggs. Right, so it's like it's like half and half, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's really it's really easy. Yeah. Uh so what else what else do you think MSG works in for baked goods? You know, I think like I've never used it to bump up caramel, but like I feel like if I were to, I I always kind of lean into caramel as like a vehicle for more savory things. So, like in the book, I use the fermented chimp paste called buggowong.
But like I've seen like soy caramel, miso caramel, every kind of caramel is something. Yeah, well, salted caramel was such a huge thing, so why not why not a little lemon? A little bit, a little bit. Uh I bet you chalk chip cookies would be good. Oh, how do you like your chocolate?
How do you like it? Yeah, well, yeah. Well, so you can see so describe for people who can't uh well, okay. Well, we'll do the we'll do the tasting, we'll do the tasting uh in uh in a minute. Another uh thing I had a question about is uh hey, going back to the the going back to the uh uh Jack's uh love of his pretzel buns.
Just talk to me about dusting the tops of rolls with breadcrumbs. Because that seems like a cool that seems cool. Yeah, I mean, I think that's like just for uh a like a traditional Filipino pond de sal, like it's always kind of like a dusting of that and a coating where it's just like I'm maybe for like textural purposes, I think it's like you bite into it and then it's like just like a nice little even the slightest of crunches, but it still adds something to it. But I don't think I've ever had pondesol without the breadcrumbs on top. I think it's just like a very signature part of it.
And so, and so for those that don't know, I read the recipe, it's like medium, it's a medium fortified milk-based bread with like a medium amount of butter. It's not like brioche heavy, it's like light, it's like well, it's like closer to like the recipe looks like maybe a little more butter than a standard American hamburger roll, and there's some sugar in it, right? So you say it's you said it's kind of close to the Hawaiian, right? Yeah, yeah. There's a little bit.
There's like a like there's a Hawaiian King's Hawaiian vibe to it, but honestly, it's just like such a yeah, it's a staple breakfast thing where it's not super super sweet and as like king's hawaiian would be, but like there's a little bit of sweetness in there. And that one you do like a dull finish. You don't want that one glossy, at least not in your picture. I know, like not pro glossy pan de salt. But you know.
So what texture of bread crumb is that? Is that like like the like a standard like Italian progresso size bread crumb or standard? And the funny thing with like the I guess like logistics of like when you're grocery shopping for a cookbook, it's like I was running into a problem where I don't know why the plain breadcrumbs were out of stock at like Seatown or whatever, but they only had the Italian seasoning. I was like, I want the Italian seasoning breadcrumbs, but not panko, just like regular progressive. Yeah.
I mean, there is a period where everyone used panko panko is a miracle, but it's not for everything. No, yeah. It's not for everything. No. I mean, like, uh you ever gone down the internet rabbit hole of watching panko videos?
No. Wait, what's that? What do you mean? So panko. Panko is a technological marvel because it's panko is a crustless bread that's made only for for the crumbs, and it's baked between electric plates that cause it to rise straight up into this like thing.
It's then par dried and shredded. And so it's like very specific. This like weird bread, like cooked between these plates with no crust. I think I believe it's resistive heating, right? Don?
Yeah. And so like you go online, you're gonna do it, you're gonna go down a panko hole, and you're gonna be like, whoa. So cool. That's why it's that's why they're texturally so different. That's why you can't mimic panko just by having larger like Western bread crumbs.
It's not it's not just coarse breadcrumbs, right? And there are different sizes of panko, but the texture and the orientation of the of the bubbles in the crumb, totally different. So it's brown completely the same, like there's since there's no crust, like is it just like the same tone or uh yeah, so it's high yield in that way, right? But also like because it's cooked resistively between like the whole bread, like if you look at the panko breads, they're like tall. Like you think that they're baked this way, but they're not.
They're baked tall, and the bubbles go up like this. Like almost, yeah. And then um, yeah, they they can shred the whole the whole thing. But that structure in the way it's baked is why it can't be easily mimicked, and why you should not attempt. There are people who like try to make their own panko, but it's like, you know what?
It's like it's just one of those things that even I am like, no thanks. No, no, it's like pop rocks. Yeah, I tried that. You bought wait, you set up a resistance heater and you try to do it, or you try to do it in another. I just try I try to do it in the open.
It won't work. Yeah, apparently. Yeah. Quinn, man. There's some things, just you know, you know, there's some things.
Like, you know, Nastasia believes pasta's one of those things. You know, that uh that is true. Uh all right. Um now. So when I was reading your book, uh, you know, people who know me know that uh I like to I like pH shifts.
Okay. And um, so anytime there's alkaline cooking techniques that like that I don't understand, I'm like, wait, what? And that's what happened in the book, right? So, you know, lye water, uh, Filipino lye water, which is I guess similar to because it it it's not coming as a powder, comes as a liquid similar to consue, right? Uh, and then you know, down my little rabbit hole of uh looking for it, like they they have various different bases in them.
I haven't been able to determine exactly what the concentration is to make your own. I haven't figured it out yet. Yeah. The one that I ended up buying is sodium carbonate based, and you can make your own sodium carbonate, as Harold McGee said, uh, you know, in one of his New York Times things, by baking baking soda, right? But I don't know the I don't know the percentages.
So then you have these two starch-based uh Filipino uh desserts. Uh and I don't have your version because and I will discuss this. Uh we have uh the um cuchinta. That's how you pronounce that? Yeah, yeah.
The S uh T S is sh. Well, I'm so glad I did not try to pronounce it. I knew I I heard you struggle a little bit. I was like, I'm gonna save you right now. Yeah, say it again.
Cuchinta. All right. But for those of you who are pronunciation jerks like me and have no knowledge or culture, it looks like it says cut center. Yes, yes. You're not wrong.
Yeah, but Cachenta sounds the cooler. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. There's something about it. Yes.
Wait, why don't you so and then the other one, this is pronounced like it's written right, Pichi Peachy. Yeah, perfect. Uh Falkland. Uh and they they gave me this. So I bought this at uh uh a local place local to me.
I don't know whether it's any good, but the idea is that these starches are cooked with uh in an alkaline with alkaline water, and it uh affects the texture. I can tell you it affects the taste. I mean, like I keep my taste mind open for alkaline stuff all the time. So I love pretzels because they're you know alkaline. I love you know, uh, so I like to think about it.
So you want to describe these two things and the lye water and what it's for, and then we can discuss that no one has written good science papers on it. That's very true. Honestly, a lot of like even Filipino cooking is so oral that's like it just works because it works. And I was like, I have to describe this now. Um but like cuchinta and pitchy pitchy are under the umbrella of cacanin, which are the rice cake desserts slash snacks.
Um, and for cochinta, it's kind of like the the main flavor there is brown sugar, and then you're just mixing that with like different variations of sometimes tapioca, rice flour, tapioca flour, tapioca, rice flour, etc. And it has like this mochi-like texture after being steamed, and that's what we usually use like coconut as a toppings for. And they're like little discs. Oh, thank you. Uh little brown discs.
Uh, and then yeah, you add like a bunch of fresh coconut on top. Right. They these ones that we have here look like they were made in like uh in like a little uh like an egg tart ramekin or something. Yeah, yeah. And that's what I usually use, like little tart molds to steam them in.
Um and I'm gonna go ahead and you know, let's let's use this. Let's use a fork. We're doing some grated coconut on top. So these are like uh I mean they look like the color of brown sugar. Yeah, yeah.
Right. And they look like vaguely vaguely jelly-like, right? And the the texture is. Well, you got you need to try too, because you need to tell me whether this is a good one. Okay.
Okay, I'm just gonna pick up mine, but you can use your fork. Okay. And they're the color sometimes for traditional cuchinta, they get like a little bit of anatom to make it more different. Oh, that's right. You said they cheat.
They cheat. I mean, yeah, they're not using, yeah, it's not brown sugar solely that gets this color. Although you you you got me on that too, because she has these amazing looking shortbreads that are flavored with uh freeze-dried fruit, which is a great idea. And now I was like, your colors are so amazing. You're like, I cheated.
I know I can't, I can't live with myself. I'm Catholic. I'll be like going to confession for like, I'm so sorry to lie today. All right, so now the reason I brought these in, even though they're I didn't get a chance to make the recipe, right? But your recipe, because there's a recipes by the way, for both of the things we're talking about in the book, so you should pick up the book.
The reason I bought this is because I have no mental referent for this food. Yeah. And I don't like and we could talk about this because it's an interesting problem, right? So sometimes if there's no referent, I'll make something anyway, but then I'm making it the way I think it tastes good, which is different, and it ends up just tasting like the food that I always make. Whereas if it's possible, I like to have someone who knows be with me and taste it and say, this is an accurate representation so that I can recalibrate how my mind thinks for when I make it, and then when I make it, I can be like, oh, I'm good at this, I'm bad at this, or I want it this way or this way.
You know what I'm saying? So that's why I brought this here so we could see whether or not this is an accurate representation of this product. And I'm not saying where I bought it. Just in case. Just in case it's not an accurate representation of the product.
Um I don't know. This is a great I have like this is one of my favorite things at a Filipino party, honestly. And it's accurate to like my childhood any English now. It just a good bounce with like the lye water, just make sure it like solidifies enough to get to this texture. And is that the accurate amount of alkaline taste of lye water taste?
Because for me, like whenever I taste it, like I know it's there because I look for it. You know what I mean? But like I think if you didn't know a blind taste. Yeah, if you didn't know it was there, like you know, if you didn't even know what alkaline tasted like, maybe you wouldn't know that it was there. But like what would the texture be like if I cooked that without the lye water?
Would it be textually different or didn't just wouldn't have the lye water? I think it's something where I feel like lye water is also used for like ramen noodles sometimes, right? And so that also adds to the springiness and the bounciness there. Right, but that's a protein interaction. I mean, that's an interaction.
Yeah. I mean, with this too, I feel like there's a a similar thing where I think trying it without lye water, I remember in my tests, there's just not that um bounce back. Like I I there's no other way to say except that it's like there's no resistance when you chew through it. Right. Like, I mean, obviously there's like still like rice flour or tapioca flour, whatever combination of you know, uh, you know, starch there.
But you would think the tapioca would give you more more bounce, right? There is some of that. There is some of that, but like it's just yeah, there it it adds an extra oomph to that. Yeah. I know that's not like scientific term.
Well, what's what's interesting to me is that this is well, you know, you you say that like the there's like a lot of the the uh Filipino cooking is uh is oral, but there's also an amazing history of Filipino food scientists. You know what I mean? Especially women food scientists and botanists, and we'll talk about coconut sport in a little bit if we have yeah, we'll have time. And uh so I was just shocked that there was no information on this. And so I called, I like I did like a full-on trying to research in English, in English.
There's not a lot of uh stuff. And I call Harold McGee, I was like, yo, Harold, you know anything about you know anything about Filipino starch-based desserts with alkaline cooking. He's like, no, there's not much on it. And he sent me like the only thing he could find was um, and by the way, we could talk about this too. Like uh, I'm I'm not very good at things that are trendy because I'm a butt head and we could talk about that that later.
But uh uh because I never got on the grass jelly train. Did you ever get on the grass jelly train? I mean, that's like just like a Southeast Asian. We need grass, we love grass. Yeah, but it got huge it got huge in New York, like maybe like six, seven years ago.
We're talking about when there was like that trend where it's like the ice, like the the it's just clear and it's like, oh, it's jelly. Yeah, like rain, water, jelly. Well, no, but then there was no, there was like the the black, the black jelly, the grass jelly, like it's got hu huge here from my everyone's talking about it, so I was like, you know what? No, I'm not gonna. I don't know why.
Cause I'm like that. Same thing with Ube, like it got huge. I'm like, nope, you know what? No. And it's uh it's a sickness that I have.
It's the same way that like in when I was a kid, I didn't want to listen to the same music other people listen to. It's the hipster. Yeah, I was like, no. I was like, hell with this. No, I'll wait until people stop caring about it, and then I'll care about it deeply.
Anyway, it's a mental problem, and I shouldn't be that way, but I've always been that way. Um so anyway, uh apparently uh there is a starch interaction uh from because you know, there's that member of the mint family whose name I forget that they make the grass jelly out of, and you have to boil it for a long time in alkaline water. But that's the only paper that he was able to find on it. There's not a lot of yeah, not a lot of work. I'm sorry, I know, I'm sorry I can't add as much to that either.
But yeah, so I was like, oh, what's going on here? So what do you think, John? I have no idea. No, the taste. Oh, the taste, I like it.
Yeah, yeah. Do you taste the alkaline? Not I don't really know if I know what alkaline tastes like now that I'm trying to do it. It's more, it's it's more uh you can tell tell more in the here. Talk about talk about this product now.
So that you you describe the I get it right, kachinta, cachinta? Cachenta, yeah. And in my book, I change it slightly with like Thai tea. And that also adds the flavor and also color that's traditional with cochinta, but the pitchy pitchy is like cassava and also like sugar and water. And it seems like this is rolled in like some more coconut.
Yeah, yours look easier to eat than this one. Yeah, this this one is like okay, this and to describe it's like in blocks. And for mine, I like to do like little like uh discs, and they're coated in coconut um as well. But mine are like flavored with chamoy and raspberry, and so it's like a fruitier flavor, and definitely not traditional at all. But this, we're gonna see.
Sometimes also I've noticed people love, you know, if you like salty sweet, we've had cheese on top of this in the past with my family. But so this, for those of you who can't see, it looks this one's like looks like uh lemon or pineapple curd. Yeah, it this is kind of like a yeah, it's like a butter yellow yeah, very interesting and like semi-translucent. It's when I say the reason I say uh like a like a lemon curd is it looks like a citrus product that has that's being clouded by butter, but it's not. It's none of those things.
So what what goes in this? Literally just like cassava, uh grated cassava. And use the frozen grated, yeah. Usually. There's not, I definitely don't like to put in the effort most of the time to like grate that cassava by hand.
And so it's like usually my mom would always have this with just regular frozen cassava. Is there an is the frozen cassava just as good as the uh as the grating it fresh? Like honestly, between you and me and everyone who's listening? Yeah, uh frozen grated is fine. Like is this accurate?
Mm-hmm. All right. But it's like you'll see. Are you getting more of the uh of the lye water on that? Yeah.
That's really delicious. It's interesting. So this texture is so much softer and the flavor comes in leaves faster. I think you can get that, you know where that lie not's not lie, it's sodium carbonate, probably, probably. It could be a different thing, but you could get where it is.
But so this is an accurate representation of what's of what's going on? Yeah. Of the texture? This texture is right to me. So how do you describe how so how would you describe this texture as well?
It's definitely a lot less bouncy than the cochinto, right? Yeah. And uh is yours bouncier than this? Like, will it get bouncier? No, this is this is pretty similar to mine.
And I feel like this when you put it in the fridge and everything, and it just stays like this texture. Um I I it just kind of sucks. Okay, this is like the thing that I I don't love about this dessert, is that it gets very like all over your hands. And um, I think like I use like no oh thank you. I usually use actually like uh what's it called?
Just like desiccated coconut as the coating because it does like allow less of like the tackiness and it just like kind of absorbs not absorbs, I guess maybe absorbs, but less like protects your hands, and that's not like an important thing of the flavor or anything, but it was just like something I noticed about this variation. So while you're talking about coconut, why don't you talk about the crazy variety of awesome different Filipino coconut products? Mm-hmm. There's um Nata de Coco, which is like a coconut gel. And if you've ever had like lychee jelly and like a boba drink or something, that's exactly what that is kind of made from.
And they just flavor it with like lychee extract, probably. But it's like this like nice, satisfying, chewy, like juicy chew. Um, and I love that in like buco pundan salad and fruit salad. It's like a very much a staple of like our cold desserts and like halahalo as well. It uses notta de coco.
It's also a crazy product because it's it's uh bacterial cellulose. Oh, that's the scientific. Well, it's like you know, you ferment it and the and the bacteria grows as cellulose. I think it's very similar to the hard stuff in kombucha. Oh, I think it's fascinating.
I think so. I don't know, I don't never I mean, I don't taste the stuff on top of kombucha, so I don't know. You know what I mean? But I think it's structurally similar, like a like a cellulose thing. And I've never I've had it, but I've never had a I was reading that they also make it from pineapple juice.
Is that good? There's like yeah, the pineapple flavored ones. That's pretty um, I feel like I would just like maybe stray away from every try to like have a specific uh, you know, like buco pandan is like very delicate coconut flavors. We don't want pineapple in that mix in case you're a little adventurous, who knows? But um usually it's funny like ill in the Filipino grocery stores, you'll see it in like different colors sometimes.
Like they just like dye it with like red or with green, but like it's usually preserved in syrup and that what allows it to like stay shelf stable for a while. Yeah, talk to me about the uh talk to me about the uh the coconut sport. Oh, coconuts where macapuno. Okay, so macapuno is like one of the like it's like it literally when you look it up on Wikipedia, it's like a genetic mutation of coconut. So when you open up like a young coconut and it's just like pretty much like jelly-like inside, that is literally what that is.
And I don't even know, like, and then because people are like this is yummy and tasty, they start to like genetically like reproduce these things and like um actually I guess like harvest this type of coconut for for intentionally, not on accidentally. Oh well, I went down a rabbit hole on that too. Crazy story. Tell tell me more. Well, I mean, I know little about it, uh you know, from a culinary standpoint, other than it's real interesting, it's like softer, it's good.
You mean you obviously like hey, you use it a lot in the thing. You know, I mean it how does it taste different by the way when you get it in the can and syrup versus if you were able to get it like fresh? I've never had it fresh. I don't know who has it fresh, but I really want to try it one day. All right, so here's the story that I read.
So yeah, it was it's a mutation that naturally occurs in uh in coconut palms from time to time that's recessive because the embryo of the nut can't grow. So there's there wasn't a way to propagate. So if you had a tree that was had the recessive gene in it and then it was fertilized by another one that was recessive, you would occasionally get these makapuno like, and so the entire inside, like you say, is filled with this like very and so it was a huge delicacy because it was super rare, and you couldn't know until you cracked open the nut whether you were gonna get it or not. So even on a tree that was recessive, that was, and so people would plant a bunch of these recessive ones near each other, hoping to get like one, but still it was only like like somewhere like between two and like seven or eight percent of the of the nuts would have this thing. So the price was through the roof, and it's still more expensive than regular coconut meat.
Oh, yeah, you would just and that you buy it in jars here, and it's like also imported, so it's always so expensive to get, but uh, usually uh traditionally it's like used in tandem a lot with ube, so it's like ube macapuno cake is like very, very common of like a flavor. Um, and I don't know, there's something that's just like it's it's softer to me whenever I eat like that versus just like a fresh, like even like coconut meat. Um, and I don't know, like there's it's just like really nice and sweet, and I I have it on top of like this ube macapuno lava cake in my rep in my book. And so I don't know, it's like it is. I would recommend anyone who hasn't had it to try it just to like again have a sense of what it is.
Well, so this food scientist who as of 2020, she was still alive. Her name was uh Amerita de Guzman in the Philippines, figured out a way to break open the coconut, like determine that it was makapuno, cut out that just the embryo, and raise the embryo, like it's called it's called embryo rescue. And they rate she raised the embryos on their on their own, so she was able to take ones that were double recessive and grow them as plants, and she was able to get the yield of makapuno nuts from like seven percent up to like eighty percent. And so, like all of a sudden it became viable to grow the makapuno uh coconuts. That's amazing.
Yeah, I had no idea. Yeah, cool, right? Cool story. No, it's really cool. Um science right there.
Oh my god. Science. That's what this one we're here for. Science. Uh all right.
So let's talk about this cookie before we run out of time. So what what cookie did you bring? Um, I brought the adobo chocolate chip cookies um that were featured recently in the New York Times. Oh, nice. So congratulations.
Yeah, thank you. It's been great to like see this, the reception of this cookie. It's like nice example again of sweet, salty umami. Um I use soy sauce in there instead of salt in the dough. And then I also use bay leaf to brown the butter.
Um we got two minutes. Oh, bay leaf in the butter? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so like there's pink peppercorn on top, so if you have a cashew allergy, maybe stay away, but it's a great mix of a little bit of henna spice and floral. So this is like so you're saying like this is the kind of sinequan non of your fusion of savory with with uh sweet.
Yeah. Oh nice. Yeah, you know me. You eat and discuss, I'm gonna have to ask more questions. We're gonna run out of time.
Okay. Saba banana Saba banana. Can't get it here. Maduro plantains a direct swap, it's good. Mm-hmm.
It's good. All right. So that that was a good hack. I like that. You're like, just use the plantains.
I swapped out for plantains. And you said you can. You said uh what is it? You said your whose recipe was that? Was that your mom's or your aunt's or something like that?
That residue? There's like one that's like mommy's uh guinnetang wheel be loan and we use that for sure. And and she was cool with it? She's cool with it. A plus from her.
Yeah. Uh what about this? Uh I I'm not gonna make it because I don't like melons, but what about the the uh the chicharron crunch crumbly chip roll on top of it? I like a I like a sweet uh a sweet uh pork rind situation. So I think I was really inspired by prosciutto and like melon rind, and I wanted something that had the same flavor profile, and like that's a crumble to me, I guess.
Alright, so okay, we're gonna run out of time. Talk to me quickly about uh roast rice coffee. Roast rice coffee. So in the Philippines, but you don't like regular coffee though. I am a hater, I don't love coffee.
And so like uh roast rice has no caffeine and also has like the dark, dark uh notes of like a roasted coffee, but I use it in terama soup, so it's a great swap. And you show how to make it yourself, you just toast it and then grind it. And is it good to drink? Well, uh, you can drink it. I mean, it's more so just like it it's just like a roasted flat kind of flavor, but it's good for a termas sou.
Alright, talk to me about uh Frito Crunch and corn milk pudding. Ooh, okay, that's the malted milk mahablanca. And so I love the sweet and salty again of the Fritos, so I put a toffee um with that on top of a malted milk, corn and uh coconut milk pudding, and it's like my mom's recipe, but I tweaked it again. All right. Well, all right, well, we run out of time.
I could ask you more because I wanted to talk to you about your carrot fritters and whether there's a problem with them. Because there's no binder, just cornstarch, right? Do they hold together really well? They hold together, but you have to kind of like tamp it down and like make sure to use some pressure to keep it together. Alright, and you know, I was gonna talk to you for a long time about pork floss, but because I love it so much.
Um I was gonna ask you about this water buffalo milk. Can you get that in the US? You can get it in Queens. Is it good? It's pretty good.
Worth worth searching for? Worth it. Mario's Bulacan Suites. I'll shout them out because I've tried them before. All right, all right, all right.
And uh um, since you said it was good, uh the uh the pastries we got today, uh other than the one you baked for us, thank you so much, were from Johnny's Air Mart in Avenue A. Or Johnny Air Martin in uh on Avenue A. Anyway, uh Abby, thank you so much for coming on, coming on uh uh anytime. And the book is Mayumu, Filipino American Desserts Remixed Cooking Issues. Thank you.
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