Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arm, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from the Heart of Manhattan and Rockefeller Center, New York City, New Stand Studios, joined as usual with uh Joe Hazen actually, because we don't have John in the studio today. No, how you doing, man? Everything good? Yeah, everything's all right.
How the panels treating you there right? Uh, you know what's funny? I had to change I had to change the whole console out yesterday. The other one took uh beep boop Yeah, a lot of work. Oh, that sucks.
Oh my god. I'm sure you're I'm sure you're catheted to your particular ear sliders, man. Well, this console is particular because it's got a lot of different things that you just can't find on new modern consoles right now. So um I mean it's still a digital console, but it gives me a lot of flexibility. All right.
But we're back. All right, that's good. And uh we're here at a special time. So uh, and I don't have John here because he had to work at the restaurant. John is at Temperance Wine Bar.
Um and like what like Nastasi, I think's on a plane and Jack got himself poisoned. Is that right, Quinn? Are you the only person? Other way around. Uh other way around.
It's all the same thing being on a being on a plane, food poison. It's all the same. How are you doing, Quinn? I'm good. Good.
And uh for today's very special guest, we have Andre Houston Mack, but not spelled Houston like the town Houston. It's a very interesting spelling. You wanna do you want to tell me about that? Yeah, no, I could tell you about that. Um one of my uncles was named Houston.
I like that's how they spelled it. Nice. My mom is my favorite uncle, her favorite uncle, and that was it. I got the name. And you ended up in Texas, but you're not from Texas because you're military brat.
Correct. Military brat, born in Trent, New Jersey, spent the first 15 summers there in uh summarine in Trenton, if you will. And uh You're the only person on earth that's ever said that. Correct. Actually, I have to get credit.
My wife said that. But anyways. Um, yeah, and then we kind of lived all over the world. My first place we ever moved was Texas. My mom fell in love with Texas, and that's kind of been home for a little bit.
You ever go back to Trenton? What's Trenton about? What they have a motto, right? Uh, Trenton makes the world takes. That's it.
That's right. It's the bridge. Yeah, no, totally. I do go back every now and then to visit friends. What is Trenton?
It's the headquarters for uh Taylor Ham. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, we're gonna obviously talk uh more about uh ham in a minute.
Absolutely. Uh and for those that don't know uh your uh your work, uh graphic designer, uh wine maker, uh restaurant owner, uh writer, uh YouTube personality. I mean, I don't know where to start I don't know where to I just try to do be me, you know. The opportunities come, I just do it. So it's been fun.
Try to keep busy. Yeah, yeah. You know. And uh, if anyone happens to be listening, even though it's not our normal time, uh, on your own Patreon, call in your questions to 917-410-1507. That's 917-410-1507.
All right, so now's the time on the show when we just like anything last week that you guys did that was interesting, and you know, food, food or drink-wise, usually, but could be anything, like maybe you got lit on fire. I'm not saying you did. Um, last week I was in Madrid, Spain. Uh and I hadn't been back since I was a child, so it was great. Um I had these sardines on this black bread with butter.
Good. Just a simple thing, it just blew my mind. Like fresh sardines? Yeah, I can't stop. I can't stop thinking about it.
It was pretty amazing. You know, I'm sure I said this on air a million times, but like James Beard, weird, weird dude, if you read the writing, right? Did not like fresh sardines. I mean, but my feeling is that canned sardines are delicious, and fresh sardines are delicious. Fresh sardines one of my favorite fish, though.
Like so, like I think they're completely different. I don't think that you can say one is better than the other, or worse than the other doesn't make sense. It doesn't make, it's not the same. You would never be like, hey, I needed some fresh sardines, and then someone hands you a can, you're like, what? What?
It's not the same thing. You know what I mean? Uh I I don't know. I don't know. Like some people like fried chicken, some people like grilled chicken.
I mean, there, yeah, it was chicken. To me, those are more similar. Like to me, because they're both cooked. Okay, all right. Fair enough.
Fair enough. Okay. I don't know. But I'll tell you one thing. Uh, are you a boca coronas freak?
I am. Yeah. I am. I actually like salt anchovies. Yeah?
Yeah, I mean, I like the I like Boca Ronis. I like them. I like salty, I like tiny fish salt, like salt like hell. Yeah. But I know that I'm a weirdo.
I know that that's not right. Uh oh yeah, Quinn told me you're in Madrid Fusion. I didn't know that Madrid Fusion was still going. What's the so when I last time, the only time I went was in 1900. Sorry.
2000 and uh I think it was four or five. Okay. And um everyone then had food poisoning as well. It was so funny. They all got food poison.
So Harold McGee was food poisoned, Thomas Keller was food poisoned. Really? Everyone food poisoned. And they still showed up on stage. And you ever seen like uh uh cooking demonstrations being given by people with food poison?
It's amazing. You gotta see it. It's great. All right, let's see if there's video on the floor. Because like the look on their faces, you know what I mean?
But like, you know, it was like uh it was a who's who of like, you know, because Spain at that time was on fire fire. You know what I mean? Like Danny Garcia was doing all kinds of he was doing a thing where it was almost like uh, you know, you know, uh pom souffle. He was doing fish souffle where he was like like taking whole fish and then like sewing up all the holes and then frying it and have the skin puff up. He was doing all sorts of loony stuff.
Yeah. The guy, I forget his name, he was doing that thing where he was heating up like a bed of nails and then smacking the meat onto the bed of nails. Like, yeah, I forget whose name it was, like, but like, you know, Charlie Trotter came and was doing like some hardcore Trotter business. Wow, that's insane. And like 0405?
Yeah. It was a crazy time to be involved in all this because uh no one was jaded yet. Correct. You know what I mean? I get you.
Yeah, I had just moved to New York. So we were just opening per se in 04. Yeah, they were telling about this, and I remember what Keller presented now. He did his uh he did compressed fruit in the vacuum machine. Yep.
Because, you know, it's real pretty, you know how he likes pretty stuff. Oh, yeah, we used to do the watermelon, compressed watermelon. It looks great. It does taste better too. I mean, because it's you know, uh texture makes better taste.
It was really tasty. So what's the vibe now? Um I haven't been, so this was my first time there. Um I didn't realize it was a kind of convention kind of thing, and I don't really do those, but it was great. I represented America.
I was basically giving somewhat of a State of the Union of American wine. And were you for it? I was for it. Yeah, I'm gonna vote for it, right? You know what I mean?
I I was I was happy to represent the United States. State of our graves is strong. Yeah, well, you know, to talk about like different issues and was trends and stuff like that, and it was great. And you know, Spain was interesting, you know. And for me, it was just kind of a you know, and and and I wasn't there that long.
It was very short trip. Um I ate, I think I went out one night and that was kind of it, and then I had to leave. But what'd you have? You have the baby pig? No, I didn't.
I only had that that sardine thing. Oh yeah, that was it, and that was kind of it. And um, I didn't realize people in Spain knew who I was, kind of so to speak. So it was great. It was you know, it was you know, it was 40 people in a line to take selfie, so it was you know, it was interesting.
Can you speak Spanish? No, I can't speak Spanish. So stupid. No, I I was you know, it's like, and I was like romanticizing in in high school to take French, but I lived in Texas, which was dumb. Right.
Um, but the guy who introduced me, he introduced me in Spanish. It was pretty amazing. He was hired. I'm gonna hire him. No, it's not I wonder who it was.
There used to be uh so back in 0405, he was he was an amazing dude. He was a his career included being like a cornet player, a nanny, uh uh a a sommelier, a cocktail maker, a line cook. Uh uh, he was a I knew him from WD, but he ended up uh his name is Tona Palomino, and he ended up moving to Chicago, but he used to be the translator extraordinaire because he was hyper fluent, hyper fluent in kitchen, like high-end kitchen talk in both Spanish and in uh English, and he's just really good at it. So, like back then, like any time someone came to New York, they're like, I want Tona. Got it.
Yeah, to do my different this year. I think it was some of the things were more like assignment disco. So you'd put on the headphones and there would be two translators in a glass case in the back, and they would speak to they would translate. So there was lots of translation going on, yeah, and vice versa. I think, you know, because I spoke in English.
So I actually get this. Uh it was the first job I had at the French Culinary Institute was to go to Madrid Fusion. So it must have been oh four. Anyway, it was the very first job I had, it was the first trip I was supposed to take for the company because I was their director of culinary technology. I was supposed to do all their learn all their you know tech crap, right?
And I'm going to the airport, and it's uh MLK Day is on the Monday, right? So there's nothing's open. I go and uh my passport expired because I hadn't left the country in so long. My passport expired, and I was like, Oh my god. And so I missed that plane, but it was like still possible.
So I call up and uh I called up like everyone I can call. So finally, like someone at the State Department picks up. Okay. And they're like, is it a matter of life or death? Now these are one of these moments where you have to make the right decision.
You know what I mean? I was like, yes, this is a matter of life and death, because if I don't get on that plane, I'm gonna lose my job. If I lose my job, my kids are gonna be homeless. You know what I mean? Like life or death.
And so I had to get on an airplane, fly to DC to the only state office that uh uh uh State Department office that was open on the holiday. Flew into Reagan Airport, got on the subway, ran, ran, got my picture taken, hot and sweaty. So that passport, I was like like like totally messed up. Got back on the plane and like directly ran to the airplane to take me to uh you know, out of New York back to Madrid's crazy. I was unbelievable that I made it, but I kept the job, which was good.
Imagine you imagine like that's why you didn't pay attention now. I get it. I get it. I totally get it. People check your passports a month before you fly, at least.
That's right, because sometimes they won't even let you in if they expire six months or something like that. Well, it depends where you're going to. Like it's some places it takes forever, and like it's a racket anyway. Like, if you want your passport in a reasonable amount of time in this country, you have to pay a lot of extra money, which seems weird. It seems once you're a citizen of this country, like we shouldn't be better or worse than each other based on our ability to pay for our documents, you know what I mean?
It should be a lot easier, too. Yeah, considering I think there's some weird number, like Amer only 40% of American, you know, 60% of Americans have their passport or something like that, or vice versa. It's like weird. Well, I don't know, like uh whether you ever hung out, but like the last time I was in like Detroit, I was talking about oh, you know, the kids going across the bridge to Canada so they could drink when they're 18, right? Don't say D.
Yeah. And they're like, well, they but now they have to use this enhanced ID to do it, and it turns out that even just that level of enhanced ID chops out like a whole chunk of folks who don't have because it's an I think it's an extra 60 bucks or something. Yeah, so let's just let people have the ID. You know, if you get it, I should get it. If that idiot gets it, we should get it.
You know what I mean? It's like this is American. Yeah. It's built on that. You already know that.
I yeah, yeah. We could talk about that forever. Yeah. So it's whatever it is, pay to play. Uh all right.
So how how do the uh how do the Spanish folk uh uh take to uh the American wants to do it? Yeah, I think they were it was great. Lots of clapping, lots of people waiting afterwards to talk to me, so it was great. I had a great time. It's really fun.
It was good. You know, uh my biggest regret uh because I missed the day. I I always try to build in like at least five hours where I can do non-food related crap. I like to go to markets, that's my but I like to like see like a museum or cultural blah blah blah. Yeah, yeah.
Uh and I didn't get to go to the Prado. Yeah, I didn't get to go either this time. It's got my one of my favorite paintings in it. Like I like Goya's like black paintings, his like crazy ones, like Saturn eating his son is like the most like visceral, Fd up, like dude afraid he's gonna be murdered by his children, so he's eating his own children, and it's like a decapitated man in his hands. I think I know that one.
Yeah, it's just super dark. In the in the in the early 90s, I tried to get uh you know, early, early, like 1990, I tried to get a poster version of it uh from my dorm room, like in 1990, and they're like, we don't make a poster of this, nobody wants this on their wall. I'm like, this guy. Me. Yeah, I wanted.
Um hey, Quinn, you always have something uh going on. What do you have going on? Oh, I got something going on. I made some delicious uh herb oil in the spinzel 2.0. Oh, the spinz all culinary centrifuge, Quinn?
Yeah. Oh, nice. Nice. Sell it, sell it. Uh, and by the way, I think there are still are some that people can buy if they uh I think we're gonna have what, like a hundred left over some crap?
Yeah, if you go to the the Booker and Dex Instagram right now, the link in the bio is a wait list, but then we might have a official uh pre-order window coming soon. All right, Quinn. Now let's hear all the crap you put into your herb oil, and then we'll see what we think. Like what was it? What was the base?
Okay. Why peanut? I had peanut oil. Well, you're cutting in and out, man. You've turned into a robot on me.
Uh yeah. I had peanut oil. That's the secret. Okay. All right.
But then what else do you put into it? Oh cooked uh scallions, law onion, and some ginger until almost all the moisture is gone. So reduced 250 grams of aromatics to about 90 after cooking. And then you said two nine you said 290 to 90, right? So like roughly a little over three times.
Oh, okay. Yeah. So alright, go ahead. And then and then another 220 of flowering chives. Okay.
All right. And what do you think the uh so obviously the flowering chives then you kept like in their raw state to give some freshness to it? Is that the the gist I'm getting out of you? Yeah. Yeah.
And so we've got you know, two screen elements, and then like first. Yeah. All right. So uh I'm gonna give your internet a chance, recover, get some bits back, uh lower time. But like uh the so what do you think the difference was making it uh other than the high yield you can get using a centrifuge, or uh, you know, the like uh the fact that there's no water in it, do you think there's any advantages to doing it in the fusion just because you happen to have one because you work with us?
I mean I think the advantage one at the time because then it takes maybe uh random time very slow, just to be safe. Oh man. But you know, it's probably a third or 40 minute process all in. Which was again still mostly passive. Whereas, you know, if you're filtering, you know, eight eight hundred grams of oil and aromatics, it's gonna be overnight.
Who has that kind of time? Hey, listen, Quinn, why don't you reboot your internet and then we'll get you uh we'll get you back on once. I think I'm back now, actually. I don't know, man. You sound ch you know, clippity clappity.
Sound we'll we'll we'll reboot that crap and get back to it. So you get ready to hop on the waiting list here. That's what I'm about to do. Yeah, so I uh nice. So I I made something so like, you know, uh I uh uh still still working on even though it was actually due back in October, and pretty soon my editor's gonna call me up and just like be like, You missed it, it's over.
But like I'm supposed to do the redo of my uh liquid intelligence, which is my cocktail book. And so, like, you know, uh I in the first edition of the book, I uh I I put all syrups kind of some syrups are in with the recipes, right? But I put like most of them together, like orjaws and stuff at the beginning. But I've done so much work with like uh acids and syrups over the past 10 years, I'm giving it a whole new chapter. So I'm doing something on Oleo.
So I was like, oh, what's something that'd be fun to make an oleo? Something that's only uh only um rind, right? So I I went uh you know, I went and I I passed by a Buddhist hand. Whenever you pass a Buddhist hand, you're like, oh, Buddhist hand, you know what I mean? And so the cool thing about Buddhist hand, right, is that the pith isn't bitter at all.
So you can just slice the whole Buddhist hand. Right. You can make an oleo, but there's still so much flavor. Because I think a lot of times when you infuse a Buddhist hand, you actually end up throwing away a lot of flavor because like you don't end up eating the fruit, right? Okay.
So I made an oleo, then after the oleo, I use the peel again to make a lemon Buddha's hand cordial, right? As instead of lemon peel, I used it, right? And then uh the nice thing about that is is that now also the Buddhist hand has some acidity, which is the one thing the Buddha's hand lacks. And then when you strain all of that, it still has flavor and can be used as a candy or garnish. Taste that crap.
But here's the problem, here's why I brought it today. I cannot figure out how to describe the smell, and I need someone who's good at describing smells because to me it smells like Buddha's hand and like nothing else. And I can't think of what it smells like other than Buddhist hand. You know, like obviously citrus and like but you know what I mean? It's like smells like Buddhist hand.
Well, it smells like Ricola. Oh, yeah. Do you want to taste a piece or delicious? Uh that's what it smells smells like Ricola. Now I have that song going through my head.
Ricola. Yeah. And I made this lat like made it just at the beginning, like almost a week ago. I still taste fresh. I love Buddhist hand.
You want some, Joe? No. So you pass your deadline. I got a deadline too. Oh, yeah, what do you want?
Don't hurt me. Yeah, I just I just signed a I'm working on the second book. Oh, yeah. Well, I wait. You already have two books.
You're not ca which one are you not counting? The coloring book? Yeah, so that's funny. The coloring book is is the first book. Yeah.
Uh so like I did a coloring book, I self-published it. Um that was a really fun project. Um and then um I took on another project of writing another book called 99 bottles, which was somewhat of a memoir slash um slash wine book. Uh so the idea was to tell my wine life story through 99 bottles. Yeah, and it starts, it's like almost cron I mean not all chronological.
Correct. Yeah, so it's like I think the first entry is uh old English 800. Uh I was gonna ask you about, you know, uh eight ball, you can't start start out with Tiger Yeah, no, that was it, man. And and it was so funny. So that you know, that to uh the to think of that, that's where I came from, and all the way to like French laundry and then moving to New York to work at per se.
Uh and I think in that chapter I talk a lot about how the night before inventory I would drink a 40 ounce. Uh which is unpleasant. Yeah, it totally is. And hard to find, apparently in Manhattan. You can't buy 40s in Manhattan?
It was really hard to find. They used to sell this crap when I was in grad school, uh, up near my studio that was much cheaper than old English. Yeah. It was it was called laser, laser uh malt liquor, and it was like fifty cents for the super talls. So they weren't forties, but they were like like 20 ounce cans or something, or twenty and th it was I don't it was not potable.
You know what I mean? Like Yeah, most of it isn't, you know, then it was kind of that thing of like, oh it's acquired taste, but like it was that thing of like, you know, I I'm a product of hip hop. You know, I grew up on it. You know, hip hop turned 50, I'm 50, right? And so, you know, it was aspirational music music, right?
So it told you what to drink. Yeah. So this is what what you drank, but it was like, wow, it tasted like, you know, ice cube pissed on charcoal. You know, that was that's what you said. Well, I mean, like the thing is is that like uh, you know, uh that that drink wasn't on my radar until NWA came out.
Correct. You know what I mean? Like uh, cause like uh, you know, I knew like Colt 45 and all that stuff because it's loaded with dynamite taste. Yeah. Grab one, down one, get yourself around one.
You know what I mean? Malt liquor and like the. It's a dynamite taste. You know, that that old song where like the Colt 45 is exploding out of the mountains like a big weird sex explosion. It was right before the Billy D.
Williams ads came up. Yeah. You ever looked at the history of Colt 45 ads? I haven't. I haven't.
The very original Colt 45 ads were uh like uh a white dude actually on a beach, and uh he's on a beach and there's like a table, like a nice like a bistro table with like a with like a and like all this crazy crap is happening around him, like just crazy, like insanity. Okay, and he's just like he's just like nothing, right? Just like dead face dead. And like all of a sudden, like a person like like surfs up with a Colt 45 on like a waiter's tray, and it and like the person pours in the Colt 45 like it's like some good drink. And he's like savoring the drink.
So it's all about that. Then it went to the you know, the you know, dynamite taste, and then you know, Billy D. Of course, everyone knows Billy D William, yeah. I mean, you gotta love those ads growing up if you're it's if you're like I'm similar, I'm a little bit older, but like you know what I mean. It's no, no, I love those ads.
And and actually most of my Instagram feed are those nostalgia ads, like you know, so McDonald's, like all that the McNugget buddies and like that kind of stuff, you know. So it's it's always interesting to look at the past, especially from a graphic design perspective too, right? So like looking at like old stuff and stuff like that is always fascinating. Yeah. And uh I noticed that you went like immediately went high-end after the old English and you went to Boone's W uh Boone's Farms.
That that was it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Boone's Farms, yeah, man. Um, yeah, those are the days of like in you when you were moving away from malt liquor, and then also like dating, like you know, that was a certain type of woman who drank malt liquor, and then a certain type who drunk it out of a bottle, right? So that was a certain type, and then so if you're mingling and having a party, then you had to have this other stuff, and that was different.
But you know, I mean, you went through all those stages. Thunderbird, oh my god, right. Thunderbird wasn't great, but so what you did is you grabbed your whatever flavor of Kool-Aid you had, put in it, right? So it was like all of those things. Do you remember Cisco?
I remember Cisco. Oh my god. Cisco would mess you up, though. That's but you know, that stuff tastes like poison. Like even at the time, you know, like it's like I'm dying, and as you drink it.
I was like, this is bad. They're like, it's bad, but it's quick. You know what I mean? Yeah, it was just knock you out. But yeah, Cisco was popular then.
So it was like all of those things, and those are kind of like my drinking culture. And then I later talk about how it was all from popular culture, sort of like watching movies, right? And so you're like, oh wow, like uh I think to keep the sunrise was a movie, but I think that's a drink. Bartender, I'll have one of those. That that was kind of my history.
Well, you said you were calling your first Scotch call was Cuddy Sark, and you would call it Cuddy Shark. Yeah, someone's like Yeah, it was a part, it was the it was someone I had worked with, and he he fell out of his chair laughing. He goes, Did you say shark? I said, Yeah, and he's like, It's Sark, like the ship. I was like, Okay, sorry.
Ship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had no idea. And you know, he's like, It's the ship on the bottle here. You're like, okay.
But it was from watching Goodfellas, and uh, maybe actually I think in the closed caption it says shark, not shark. I gotta check that. Like the I'm gonna put my assistance on that. There's only so much money. There's only so much money in captioning.
So, like they often they get that stuff wrong, especially when it's like, you know, when it's probably better as shark anyway. Wouldn't you rather have Cuddy Shark? I do, I would. I I found it so cool. I felt really great ordering it, and then just was deflated, you know.
Yeah. A lot of sad things in the book too. You were you were pouring some uh nice cabernet when you found out that you're uh the the dad who raised you as way output it since you uh died, and uh and like really deep, like you would had a riff with your mom. It's like not usual stuff to be like that open about it. Yeah, but but to me it was you know, it was those things that like is like you let it out, and and every now and then when I go back and read it, or when people bring it up, you're like, wow, I did like leave a lot, right?
And um, for me it was it was just it. It was really like these bottles of wine, and what I think about when I see these bottles of wine, it takes me right back to those moments. And was that silver oak, right? Yeah, so it was silver oak, and it was an empty bottle of silver oak, and I was through refilled it with water because I was just I was a waiter trying to be a somewhere. So I would refill it with water, and then I set up my dining room table, like a table, and I would be pouring, and I was practicing pouring wine.
So it was like, you know, pouring over here, pouring left-handed, pouring my backhand around the corner, like all of those things, and then like my door, there's a knock at my door, and I look through the peephole, and it's my mother standing there, and I'm like, how did you even know where I lived at? And it was just that was it, you know. And so I I wanted the book to be personal. Like I f I felt at the time that all the definitive wine books have already been written. And what was that at the time?
Israeli? No, but I mean like all of them, like Jances Robinson, Hughes. Oh, like the bigger the big big big big things in there, just like on how to wines. And I just felt like, how can I like the reason why people people buy anything is the story. And for me, it's like, hey, you could read about how I got to this place and along the way learn a lot about wine just natively, right?
Just by reading the articles, and we put the sideboards on just for it to make it look like a fake wine guide, but like still informational. And so, but I just thought by like just sharing these were like real stories that were raw. And you know, I didn't mind I didn't mind sharing those. Yeah, it comes as like a series, like it's like uh it presented as a series of playing cards. You ever actually make the playing cards?
No, we hadn't yet. We hadn't. And so it so the book came out in October 2019. And then, you know, and so that was like right around the holidays, though something weird about it, and then COVID. Yeah, fing COVID, man.
And then that was it. And so we never really got a chance to do it at you should do it like at your one of your places now, not maybe the same ones, but just like whatever. What were we gonna do? We we were gonna make them NFTs, right? Oh god.
Which is which is so funny to me. But but the idea of making them will will happen at some point. And we're coming up on the fifth year anniversary, if I did the math right, right? So the fifth, yeah, the fifth year anniversary of the book. Yeah, and uh they're not all wines, like uh you uh went to a Senegalese place and had uh the uh the Bisap, and you're like, I want some sorrel.
Uh yeah, this is like you know. Yeah, no, yeah. So there, you know, it's beverages, it's not all wine. You know, there's some spirits. Um actually there's San Pellegrino, which is on this table, uh, and that's in the chapter where I where I realized that I wanted to quit.
I I quit working at Per se because of sparkling water. That was the straw. I didn't read that one, Doug. You gotta tell me because like I was gonna ask you. So, like for those of you that I don't know, don't know anything about whatever.
So, like at the time, Thomas Keller was like the best known chef in the country, like by a long in terms of like high-end cooking, correct by a long, long margin. Uh and you know, famously, if you read the old old stuff, had kind of been run out of New York on a rail this first time around. Uh opens up uh French laundry where you were the you were the you were the I was one of no, I was one of the Samoy. Yeah, which by the way, what a crazy job to have. It's insane.
It's what a nutty job. It was it was it was it was kind of like being in a cult and like you were like in like sleepaway camp. Yeah. Well, that's what I was gonna ask, because it's one of the famous Kool-Aid kitchens in terms of like you have to drink that Kool-Aid. Correct.
You know? Correct. And and and the crazy part is like you didn't, it was self-policing, right? It wasn't the manager that came around and said, Hey, we don't do that. It was the the guy next to you, your peer, who checked you.
And most people didn't get fired, they quit. Like it was just too much. They would, you know, a new person would come in and within two weeks, they would know whether or not they could handle it. Yeah, like uh we had some like one of our favorite like interns at the French culinary interns, people who were you know, students, and then they work with us, but he was already like an amazing cook. And after he left, we're like, you know, where are you going?
He's like, We're going to per se. I'm like, why? What's wrong with you? You know what I mean? Like, the dude, his name is Long.
I don't know if you know him, but anyway, he's he's uh well-known chef in Taiwan now. Oh, okay. And uh he uh I was like, you already punish yourself so much. You you don't need external punishment to be better because you already do it to yourself. You know what I mean?
Well, I mean, I think I think for me, I remember having the interview with Thomas Keller uh to work at the French laundry. So we're sitting uh in this courtyard on a picnic table, and he was like, Hey, you know, it's like I've been hearing great things about San Antonio, and I started laughing. I'm thinking to myself, stop blowing smoke up my ass. You know what I mean? Like what what happened?
The man loves puffy tacos, maybe. Yeah, that could be true. And so um he said, So why do you want to work here? And I just remember my answer. It's like, because I need discipline.
And I think for a lot of people, maybe before your friend Long, it's like you have to you have to know, right? It's like I was the only person, you know, a handful of people that cared about where I worked at in my previous job. And I wanted to be better. And I felt like I needed to go there. And I was like, I need discipline.
I need, I I need somebody to push me on those days that I can't push myself. And I I want to know what that's like, and I want to know if I have that drive. And he, you know, he just looked at me, he's like, discipline, we can give you that. And I was like, okay. And um, and so that was it.
I moved from San Antonio, Texas to um to the French laundry. And uh, you know, I was hired to work at the French laundry, and so we're kind of going along, and 10-year anniversary is coming up. Um, but the buzz in the news is, you know, he's coming back to New York. And I was like, whatever. Like, and and more and more as we got closer and closer, the hype started to build, and I was just like, I was like, Andre, you can't sit on the sidelines on this one.
This seems like it's too big of a deal. It's a homecoming of sorts for him. You know, it was touted as one of the most anticipated restaurant openings for New York City, uh, Time Warner Center. And I was just like, and I remember I decided on my birthday, which is Christmas on 2003, right? That I I wanted to go.
I remember, you know, at the holiday party with my boss and Dean, like, I think I want to go to New York. And he's like, Okay, all right, we can make that happen. And so I moved to New York City on sight unseen to give it a shot. I mean, like uh that opening was crazy. No one knew no one knew how that was gonna go because it was the it was the I think the first thing it was they were just building the Time Warner Center, so it's not like there was a track record there.
Um, you know, obviously, you know, he's super famous at the time, and everyone loved, you know, everyone wanted that, everyone wanted that reservation. Uh again, I don't think people who weren't seriously in in the eating world at the time can you can't you can't overstate kind of what a phenomenon it was. Even like book wise, when the French laundry cookbook came out, oh yeah, uh I had to write uh some stuff on it for uh food arts back you know way back in the day. It was one it was one of the very early and very early American chef books where you weren't intended to cook out of it. Where it was like we're gonna tell you the real stuff going back to anchovies soaking the anchovies and milk all that all that stuff.
It was kind of the first of its kind that sold well even though no one could cook at no normal folk no normal people could. Yeah. No, it was you know it was a moment in time and I just felt like this is the opportunity. I was like, you know what like I should go and I just I just left and came and and I guess the rest is kind of history. It was a it was an interesting time in New York you know as I've you know I'm coming up on my 20 oh I am my 20 year anniversary this is the longest place I've lived anywhere is New York City.
And just now just reflecting and looking back on like how the landscape has changed a lot um you know from them like losing two stars like you know from all of that kind of thing that happening there and then like um I touched the button there. No no it's not that it's like I I the star system the way it works now I think it's ridiculous. The whole thing just it just it irks me on even thinking about it makes me upset. No I get it I get it. You know and it's and and at the time I think it probably meant more then than it does now.
Yeah. But it was it was just a a an interesting time and place and it you know gave you know gave me the platform and the I guess the energy and the and the confidence to say that, you know, I and I left that job, right? Most people don't give up a job like that at the time. Yeah so what caused it with the Pellegrino? Hook me up.
Well, so we we um, you know, uh Thomas Keller used it, uh Tanat uh water and uh Hilden water. So they were two English waters that he liked to use, and so they're not really available. So we had to have somebody here in New York, some like weird company give him. And then we had like a a third water, which we used to call it was called Vottviller, and it was from Alsace, and it was in a squat little bottle, and we used to call it H3O. It was really, it was really hard water.
But it was it was great and had the consistent, you know, the contrast of the three waters, but it was hard to keep in stock. And so we would ordering 25 case drops per water, but then we would run out and then we'd be stuck, and so we couldn't run out. And so then we would have 75 cases of 50 cases of each water as a reserve and then keep ordering and then Where'd you keep it in Jersey? No, so we had we kept it like in, you know, on the like second floor of something other time, wonder building, but it was just um it was just a pain in the ass. And like finally, you know, I got the program, you know, after like three years in a place that I felt comfortable that I could just like take a weekend off.
And so I go off on the weekend trip, and I just remember it's Sunday and I'm in the security line, and one of the Samoyers calls me, and you know, he went and bought San Pellegrino because that's what we had done in the past when we ran out, and then the director of operations ran him in and to him, and it was a whole argument. It was a whole bunch of shit. And I was just like, you know what? I think I think I think I'm done. I think I I I really think I'm done.
And I had reached that point, and I remember saying, Hey, you know, I had always this agreement with my boss. He's like, You give me 90 days, the restaurant requires 30. You give me 90. So I gave him my 90, but apparently I guess he told them and it was turned into 30. And it was a weird position for me because at the time my girlfriend, who's now my wife, was writing a book about working there.
So we met there, and she was writing a book that was unauthorized. Yeah, so to speak. And um, and it was, you know, and it didn't help that Harper Collins was marketing that sex in the city meets kitchen confidential. And, you know, as a business owner now, I would totally be weirded out or freaked out if one of my employees wanted to write a book, but it was a love letter and it aged pretty well. But that aside, it was a little strange.
And you know, I just said, you know what, it's like I'm ready to move on and do something else. And, you know, it it was like I want to continue to learn about wine, and I felt like the best way to do that was to make my own. If I could make my own, then I could scratch several other itches. I wanted to be an entrepreneur, I wanted to have creativity in my life, you know, that kind of stuff. So, question.
So, like, you know, like when I'm reading, you know, or you know, you know, reading the book or you know, looking at the videos, like you're very kind of uh like opening, uh open, welcoming, like you want to bring people in, like um kind of anti pretension. But then on the other hand, freaking French laundry. I don't think any I'm gonna be hard to over again state how buttoned up like French laundry. Oh, I used to get in trouble all the time, brother. All the time, all the time.
It was like just you know, it's all of it just and so I came from a mom and pop place, which is the French laundry. Like even at the time it was it was it was the top restaurant, best restaurant in the world, but it was still mom and whatever that means. Yeah, yeah, totally. Um yeah. I was gonna say something to be an S, but I'm not.
But anyways, uh, and so it was just that thing. And then you moved to New York, and I felt New York, New Yorkers, you know, our colleagues, our New York colleagues, they were the ones that were putting the pretense on. And I was just like, it's like, hold on. So like I couldn't, you know, I used to wear these Prada's, you know, Chelsea boots, and they were like, you have to wear lace ups. And I was like, pfft, whatever.
And I was just always ignoring. I was like, what's the difference? This is so dumb. Like we never had that rule or whatever. And then finally they cornered me, and it was like this whole thing.
And then they made me go down to Kohan in the mall. Ah, geez Louise. And um and buy a different pair of shoes. I mean, it was great. I bought these beautiful split toe lace up shoes.
Yeah. And I just took the shoestrings out of them and showed up at the for the media, and they were like so. I got in trouble a lot. You know, I pushed the boundaries, and but it was like it was supposed to, to me, it was fun. You know, and it's like, you know, I was banging up against all four walls, trying to figure, you know, like a child, like pushing the boundaries of where we could go.
Um, but you know, granted, they had their way of doing it, and you know, it was really stern. And I think, you know, I think I learned a lot. It took sh three months, three and a half months to decompress from working there. I I don't doubt it. You know what I mean?
They just wound up. You know, it was like a year or two afterwards, not not your place, but like I think one of the there was like uh, you know how like everything in life in any industry, but this is the one I know, right? Seems to be like waves. They come in, they roll out, they come in, they roll out. And like kind of the high mark of kind of lunacy was when Ducasse opened Essex House.
Oh, I remember. And there was the pen service, and finally someone was like, No. Which is funny because we had Mount Vaughn pens, and the that's so they didn't guests didn't get to choose, but we had them, and the servers were responsible, captains responsible. And if you lost them, you know, they were expensive 200 bucks. But I do remember that it was that and the little stool for your bag or purse.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right at the cost, right? So I remember that. And um, and so all of this is going on, and it and it's interesting for me as like my development, and then and then this place, Mama Fuko noodle bar pops up, and you know, it's the hot thing, and I start going over there, and it was just it it changed my perception of everything in a way that like I worked at this fine dining high-end place, but it was like, but those people there came from the same, felt like they came from the same place. They worked in the same place as me, but they were doing something that was fun, and they were cooking the the food with the techniques that they've learned from high-end places or from school, but they were wearing jeans and wearing rock band t-shirts and blasting Pink Floyd and wearing shell top sedidas, and and it just what I realized is like the that it was changing.
Right. Similar level of internal pressure though. Yeah. I mean, like Chang's kitchens were hardcore in terms of, you know, again, if you know, I had numerous people, you know, I ended up being partners with him, but like uh in numerous people I sent there, yeah. It's just like, you know, it was not a place you could go just No, absolutely.
So what I so yeah, it still had the structure and the nucleus of the kitchen and the way those things work from how he was taught, but it it it displayed something differently on the dining room in the and that in that place of like just the atmosphere was just different. It wasn't uptight, you know. Maybe the kitchen was, but the dining experience wasn't. And it was coming to that restaurant multiple times that made me realize I was like, there's 30 chefs in the kitchen at per se, all leaned over plates. Um, you know, most of them aspire to be restaurateurs and owners of their own place.
Only a handful of them would be crazy enough to think they could do something like the restaurant we currently work in. But I thought a lot of those guys were gonna go off on their own, go back to where they came from and do exactly what what we were all witnessing on 12th Street or wherever that was, right? Where it was like, oh, I worked for these great places, but I'm gonna apply those techniques to like really cool stuff. And I was like, and I want to make wine for those restaurants. And that was kind of the impetus of just saying, okay, and taking the playfulness of all of that.
And you know, and like Thomas Keller, when I say the chef had a s has a sense of humor, it wasn't like he was back there on the past, like slapping his knee and cracking jokes, but it played out in his menu, as you know, the quotations, you know, there was stuff tongue in cheek, which are tongue-in-jeek. So there was humor in in all of it, and I and for me, I felt humor always kind of took out the pretense, you know. And so I that's why I I chose humor in a lot of ways and the things that you know that we came up with names, stuff like that, to be playful. My whole attitude is to be playful, right? It's like that thing, you know.
It's like I used to wear this Dr. Seuss watch on the floor, which I got in trouble for. But it was kind of like my Patch Adams kind of thing, right? Instead of putting on a red nose. You know, I I think one of the first times I I I approached the table at the French laundry, and I walked up to it was a couple, I walked up to the gentleman, I said, Hey, are you ready to talk wine?
And he said, We're gonna let you choose, but he's handing the wine list back to me, and he is shaking, not a little bit, a lot. He just doesn't want to look bad in front of this crew, yeah. But he's just so nervous. He doesn't know and he, you know, and he thinks I'm gonna like reach in his pocketbook and take all his money. And and that was, and that was kind of what I got.
It was like they were happy to see the server, but when the sommelier came for some people, they're like, This is a guy's trying to take my money. And I was like, it's like, I can't talk anybody who wants a $300 bottle of wine into a three thousand dollar bottle of wine or something like that. You know, so it was like this interesting thing. And for me, it was always like it felt like we were the bad guys, and so that's why I wore the this Dr. Zeus watch.
It's like, hey, I'm I'm human here. We're good. Well, a couple of things. One is a question. So when people are going out and they're asking for there's always that, there's always you that thing where you feel nervous that someone is gonna suggest a crazy bottle, and then you're gonna feel embarrassed because you're gonna be like, I don't have the money and buy that.
So how do you like as a consumer guard against that? Correct. So you just beat him to the punch. So he comes over in the wine list, and you say, even if you don't know a selection, you say, Hey, we would love for you to pick these are some of the things that we normally drink, and then you just slide your hand over to where a price point that feels comfortable to you and say, We'd like to stay around here. Yeah, and nobody has to see it at your table, nothing like that, and you give them the menu back and let them do their job.
I'm too stupid. I'm just like, please don't go crazy. Yeah, that's that's another way to that's another way to do it, right? And and when you work at a person like place like per se, there's levels to craziness, right? Right, right.
So that was it. But I think you know, people, you know, if you just say what your budget is without saying it, giving some type of you know, clues by pointing, then you could somewhat be safe. Yeah, yeah. No more than double my bill, which could be crazy, you know, when we had people spend thirty thousand dollars online at one table, two people, yeah. And so, you know, it was money, people need to spend it.
Yeah, it was it was an interesting thing, and I think you hit the wall where you talk about for me, it was like, how did something that became something that's a necessity, like eating, become so circus-like and ceremonial in a way, and then some you know, sometimes it would make me sick to my stomach. And you know, it's just like my love-hate relationship with New York, you know. You know, it's like I gotta leave when I start yelling at an old lady because she won't let me off the train first. Right. Then I go to Colorado, I'm in Colorado, I come down, I'm like, I was like, hey, I'm I want a flat white.
And so you know, the barista says, How's your day? I said, How about you make my coffee first before you ask me how my day is? Now I'm the New York asshole. Now I've moved back to New York, I'm ready to go back. But uh speaking of like $30,000 bottle of wine, it's crazy.
Like I remember I was uh at Jean George once. I was, you know, helping someone out, I wasn't eating. And um, although I do like eating there. Uh I just ran into him, yeah. Oh, yeah.
So uh he someone had bought some obscene bottle of wine and then they didn't even finish it. And so like they were pouring it out just for the crew. I was like, man, so it's weird, right? Because yeah, well, you can't drink it all. So it's like the the whole idea of like, so for two people who spent $30,000 in wine, or yeah, 30,000, yeah.
It was, you know, it was multiple bottles. And so they don't drink them all. They haven't with this course. And it's like, great, okay, all right, we'll move on to something else. Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. Must be nice to be the king. Must be nice, as they say. Uh yeah.
So uh going back to what you're saying about being uh playful though and being funny, yeah. There's playful, funny, mean, and there's playful, funny, not mean. And what I gather is is that you like the not mean. So like I'll give you an example that I thought was hilarious. Someone you you did a thing, I saw a clip, it was called like wine, wine, uh like not IT, but like wine, tea, wine, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And uh someone was like, Why does Rose exist? And you didn't you didn't even answer that because he he was being a dick, right? You know what I mean? And you're and you just said how it was made. So you just like ignored the douche and like answered it and there's too much savagery in the world.
Like, you know, it's like like the the comments are are swamp land, swamp pools of like cesspools of just people, you know, and it's just like, why waste your breath on something negative? And and that's kind of been my approach. It's like, I don't want to talk crap about this, let's not even drink it. Right. And so let's focus on that.
Like, I don't, I like it's just something I didn't want to do. And I was really adamant when I spoke to the BA people when they approached me. It was just like, I don't want to do that. And and I get like, you know, what makes great television, you know, you want me to drink box, you know, crappy box wine or whatever to get a rise out of me. And it's just like, let's just not even give that.
Like, let's talk about real people who are doing real things and give them the spotlight instead of no Francia doesn't need any help. And I and I get that, like, and what and what the audience is, it seems like you know, it's like the Roman gladiator days where it's like, you know, the audience is so bloodthirsty that they they're all for the takedown. Or I'm just here for the comments, and I'm just like, I don't have time for that. Like, meanwhile, meanwhile, you look in the camera, you're like, my like Chardonnay. Yeah, totally.
Well, you know, and then like it's like, and obviously, I have my own personal opinions and strong stances on a lot of things, but like I don't want to be mean about it, and I don't have to air that to everybody else. And ultimately, it's one of those companies that I sh on is probably gonna buy my company, right? You know what I mean? So the idea of all of that is just like let's be inviting, let's be fun, and like let's just be a little bit kinder. There's a lot of other in the world that's like, you know, that's negative.
And for me, it's just like I want I want I just want to be positive and and talk, talk, drink the stuff I want to drink and talk about the stuff that's nice and the shit that's crap that like let's not give it any air time. All right, let's uh before I talk more about stuff I want to talk to you about. Let's get to the questions that other people have asked. Otherwise, I'll get in, I'll get in some trouble. Oh, by the way, what's with those crazy spirits tasting glasses with the hollow stem?
Should I get one of those? So if you can find them. So this, when I first got it into tasting wine, drinking wine is like uh 1999. And it's a Rito. It's a little readles, yeah.
Yeah, and so they discontinued the glass. So that glass used to be like 1999. Like I know I sound like a boomer, like an old person. It was used to be 1999, and then they discontinued it. And and so I've been trying to corner the market on these glasses.
So anytime I see them on eBay, I buy them. But yeah, they can be upwards of $89. I mean, I'm I'm a really bad friend. A friend of mine texts me, he goes, Hey, are these he sent me a link? He goes, Are these the glasses you're talking about?
Nope. I was like, I was like, yeah, but it looks like somebody bought them. I bought those. I bought them. So I'm gonna give them to him as a gift, but I bought them, right?
So with the idea of it, and so there's some other people that make them, but I'm I'm I'm I'm in the process of of working on something very similar. Yeah, but it's it's cool though. Yeah, I thought it was really awesome. And so I only use them for spirits now, but we used to, they were intended for wine, but they like like perfect for portioning, and the way you roll them, it's just like uh it's really cool. Yeah.
I've met two generations of Riedel. Yeah, yeah. Uh Jason Lynn writes in uh absolutely loved your book, 99 bottles, was super fun reading a wine book where I had actually tasted several of the bottles discussed. Maybe the old English, I don't know. Maybe.
Uh is it oldie or is it old? I always got because I always got the eight ball. What do you think? Old or oldie. Well, it's oh so it's we call it old.
The people we called it OE, but it's old English, it's old, right? They put the E on it from reading like Shakespeare, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But brief in the hood, we just called it OE. It was like an old ear.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. All right, yeah. All right, okay. Uh tasted several of those bottles discussed, and where the writing was down to earth and relatable.
My question is: what current trends in wine have you most excited right now? I'm particularly interested to hear about trends that are or will be soon available to the average wine consumer. Um there's lots of things. I think like you're starting to like we're starting to finally see a lot of that, like sparkling domestic sparkling wine was was the a big thing. I especially out of Oregon, like maybe four or five years.
So you're starting to see a lot of that stuff come in. Um oddly enough, high-end wine in the box. You're starting to see a lot of that kind of stuff. I worked on a couple of projects for that, which is kind of fun. I think it's a good market for that for like the $50 box, the $60 box, you know.
No, absolutely. Like you you always want to go-to that you can do. I mean, most recently we had some friends come over, and we quite were quite we weren't quite wet yet ready. And I had like one of the prototype boxes in the refrigerator, and I just put it in the craft and bought it out. And they were like, This is so good.
What is this? Yeah. And so I had to bring it out. It was good. Because like a $50 box is like a $20 bottle, but you get more, you get four for $20, right?
Yeah. Yeah, no, it's makes sense. And so you start to see that. Um, uh just up and coming regions. Uh like uh I'm excited about uh Virginia, even though like you know, even though you like Norton or no?
No, I mean, so this is it. Like some Nortons I do, some I don't, and I'm trying to figure out like what they're doing that's different. Hybrid grapes take take a minute, right, to wear on me. But like some of the other stuff that, like the Cabernet Franc and some of the stuff that they're making, um, is great. And even though they do have a long history of wine making, but it's not considered like the top three that we all know.
And I think they're really starting to make a resurgence um on the you know, on all facets, like on some of the higher end, but you know, some of the young cool kids are down there now. Um was Dave Matthews in your celebrity wine tasting. I didn't get to watch that. Uh he was. He wasn't, he was he was in one of them.
It was okay. It was okay. I think it turned out all right. Virginia. Yeah.
And then you're starting to see a little bit um what's interesting, you're starting to see like the evening out of of natural wine. Right. So within anything, you know, you had the good stuff, you had the bad stuff, but like you're starting to see everybody call BS on other people, and you're starting to see like better wines and better quality wines being made on that front. Well, let me uh let me uh tie into that with a question from not their real name, I'm guessing Fira Banks. Okay.
Any thoughts on animosity from ultra traditional songs with regard to the recent interest in natty wine, not recent anymore, it's like recent if you're my age. Anyway, hold on. Specifically, that real vinegary sour stuff. It's not my cup of tea, but the condensation I've uh con condescension I've heard seems unreasonable. I was stressed into the wine program at a one star uh from being a pr uh line cook and completed the master psalm uh level.
Do you have any other recommendations on formal deep dives into that world besides the obvious equation of time plus experience? Uh all right, so we'll start with the latter. They're recommendations for uh you know, like like into n and it was their master psalm, but like they want to know more about not bad ways to go into natty wine. Got it. Um, I think for me it's it's so it's so funny.
So I last night we were out and we were drinking Nicholas Jolie, and it was like that was the as is as extremes that extreme as it got really in like two thousand in the early two thousands. And now you have all these other producers and a a a new crop of people coming to wine that are in the natty scene that don't even know who Nicholas Jolie is, who is considered the godfather, right? And so it's just an interesting thing, and I think for me is starting with the starting with the more traditional wines and then kind of moving your way to to natural wine, uh I think is a way to do it. But like if he's there, go to festivals. I mean, I mean, there's always like raw and all those kind of things.
And I think it's like any other tasting. You have to taste a lot in order to figure out what you like and to get away from some of the stuff. And if you don't like that, you know, then you know, there's other stuff with it on the spectrum that are in that that are considered natty. Um and it's funny because I think we all group them under to one thing, and then talking to one producer, he's like, Well, you know, within this group you that we're all putting us in, you know, there's people who make crap and people who make good stuff, right? Like with in everything, and I think you're starting to see it kind of flush out, just kind of the cream rises to the top, like early days of YouTube, cat videos.
Yeah, and now, you know, now there's some serious. Yeah, there's also still some really bad crap on YouTube. I mean, like, no, it is it it totally is everything. You know, I cringe, I come downstairs and my I was like, my kid is watching some other person play a video game, and it's like it. So, but you know you know, is anything ever gonna get better than grape stomp and and uh Afro Ninja?
I don't think so. I mean, like that's like pink internet, you know? I mean, like no, no, totally, or peanut butter or jelly type. Oh my god. The buckwheat boys, I sing that constantly.
Like, I just do that, I like go run around the house and like this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's when we make it. Um, and and so, you know, so I think for there it's just like, you know, going to the festivals and tasting some of the things, it's like I can't, you have to be able to weed them out. Um, yeah, you know, it does come with some dogma, and I think they're trying to figure it out, and I think it's a lot better than what it used to be.
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I think there was a time, not to be an old jerk jerk about it, but there was a time when I think there was a a little bit of just and anything went, and like people would pour you crap that was overtly flawed and be like, I like this because it tastes like poison, and you're like, okay. Yeah, but it seems like it's a lot of money. The hard part about all of it is is that is it really, is it a flaw if somebody likes it? And I I I'm what I come in the camp that it is, but to other people it's not.
And and I would have to say that over the last 20 years, I've witnessed America, Americans' taste change, which is really a sweet palate, but somehow has does like a little bit of sour. So think about like the rise of kombucha. Yeah. Sour beer, all is gateway to natural. I like sour beer, right?
Yeah. But like I just don't want too much of an acetic note in my wine. No, no, I'm I'm I'm in the same place, right? It's like some of it, some of it I can drink, some of it I can't. Um, you know, some wines that somebody pour me, they're still going through fermentation.
So, you know, so we so you know, we work through that. And I, you know, if it's bringing more people to the part wine party, I'm into it. What I don't like is the dogma that comes with it. But like, you know, in the other wine world, pretense came with it. So you have to figure it out.
Speaking of still fermenting, can Beaujolais Nouveau ever taste good? I don't I don't think so. I don't think so. It's so funny because I try to, how do I explain rose? I explain explain rose as the bourgeolet nouveau of summer for some makers.
Yeah, right? You know, it's the stuff that would hit the ground floor, and it's only you know, it's only good for you know a couple of months and and then you move on. But uh yeah, no, I've I've never had any that I've liked. I really want to like it. I want it to be something, and then I'm like giving up on it.
Yeah, it agives. Who cares? You know what I mean? Like uh Vengroff writes in uh how is climate change affecting the wine industry? Uh bear in mind, I got a couple more questions, so we're gotta do the short version.
Uh how's climate change affecting the wine industry? Are there things changing in terms of what varietals do well in what areas? Are terroirs known for their microclimates now experiencing something different that's bigger than the normal vintage to vintage variation? Correct. Yeah, so uh the short answer to that question is yes.
Um climate change is definitely affecting the wine industry. Um my first harvest in 2007, we were picking grapes in Oregon around October 15th, 10th, 15th, late 20s, and now we're picking in early September, right? So, you know, a whole month earlier, but like it is it is it is happening. Same sugar level? Um yeah, so same sugar level.
And what and what people are doing now, what I would say is like some people pick early 2015. I think Oregon was going through an identity crisis because it was so warm. And what made us unique, a lot of people, you know, like those kind of more voluptuous wines are making that style. Um, but what you've seen is California wineries move to other regions to hedge their bets. So California wineries come into Oregon, coming to Washington, going to Vancouver, right?
Uh people planting different grapes. Um, but within those pockets of different microclimates, some people are changing grapes, some people are changing the their vinification practices or you know, maybe picking earlier. Yeah, yeah. Uh speaking of uh, you want to tell me what a garage wine is? Because uh may you're you would plug your plug your plug your winery.
Yeah, so I make a wine, uh name of my company is called Meson Noir Wines. Uh you might know us as Muton Noir wines. I was in a long seven-year battle with Muton Rothschild. Um I'll leave it at that, I'll leave it at that. Oh, yeah, I've gotten I've gotten I've been in legal battles with a whole bunch of people.
Um, but um, and so there was a thing in Bordeaux called garage, they we call them garage wines, and it's because they didn't come from these picturesque chateaus, and you know, and normally, you know, there's not a real definition is like, oh, they made wine in the garage, or it was only they made enough wine they can only fit in the garage. But the the idea is is that you know, kind of like uh garage ban, it was you know, somewhat a novice turn professional kind of thing, and but it doesn't imply that you're technically an idiot, it just means you're doing it in small amounts, right? Correct. So yeah, totally. Not an not a not an idiot at all.
Sure, not the garage bands are idiots. I'm not trying to say anything. I'm hey, don't get it. Well, a lot of them started in garage. So it was the whole idea of like, you know, this kind of playful thing on on wine, and it was just like, hey, we're like these bands of negotiant, we get fruit where we can, and blah, blah, blah, and we make our product and sell them.
All right, L Butts writes in uh first he wants to say, I hope you're doing better because you're supposed to be on the show before and you uh got uh sick there. But uh two questions. Big fan of the fun energy you put towards the industry. In your opinion, what is the most underrated uh region or variety in the new world versus the old world? And uh was recently talking to a colleague at work who's interested in getting into wine, and whilst it's easy enough to explain varietals, regional styles, and even the idea of terroir to a wine noob is the hardest thing to explain.
Uh and uh well, the price the price point along with the terroir and the is the hardest thing to explain to them. I have similar issues with other friends. How to talk to them about it. Um it's funny because I think like it's any anything that you consume or drink, it's it's a personal taste. And so um, you know, I try to explain it like it's like okay, well, you know, you some people drive a Honda, some people drive a Ferrari, right?
So both of those cars get you from point A to point B, but the experiences could be the different. You could like the experience of the Honda better than you could could a Ferrari, right? So kind of the same thing. It's like I think that you have to continue to taste what you like and in your budget point. Do you think it's funny when you see a Ferrari in city traffic?
I'd laugh because because you're not getting out of first gear. Yeah. Right. And you ground in the gears down. Like I so I met this guy.
Uh he was uh I used to work at uh Palm Steakhouse, and we used to have um in the two minutes. Got it. In the front, we had uh we had valley parking, and they parked his car up front. He had Tiptonic shirt uh shift box on it, right? Uh 355.
Parking in front. He would come in, and I think he went to the bathroom. The cop was gonna give him a ticket from the car. The the people couldn't move it, and I moved the car, which is a total no-no, right? And he said, Who moved my car?
And he totally freaked out. And I said, I'm so sorry. I did, I just didn't want you to get a ticket. And he's like, How do you know how to drive this thing? And I was like, Oh, I I learned how to on a simulator, and blah blah blah.
We started cracking up. But no, but anyways, we it was a great time and we became lifelong friends, and I got to drive the car a lot. But that but that being said, yeah, there's but and first gear, it's like you know what I mean? So it's a different experience from driving. That's what I try to explain to people.
Um, cool things and uh great varietals and region, old uh, I think new world. Um, you know, I still I'm still digging Virginia. I would I you know stuff that's coming out of Virginia is really great. Old world, um Portugal wines. I think we've been talking about that all for a very long time, and I think now that a lot of Americans are moving there in expat, I think you're gonna start to see a lot of people come and request and start drinking wines from Portugal.
I've never been to Portugal. Like, I know you're not talking about this, but port, but their cheese is just out of this world. Uh what do you think about large oysters? Do you have any large oyster thoughts? Because I have a question about large oysters.
Uh large oysters, they're scary when they're raw. So I would always, you know, fry those suckers up and make a sandwich. Yeah, Ashkash Bagash uh ordered some large ones, they're colossal. He they thought they were super tasty, but too served to uh too big to serve to a guest in good conscience because they're not gonna go all the way down. Any suggestions on alternative ways to serve them?
Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, like you can't you can't serve a north of that. You can't.
No, but do they have some of these ones that are like freaking like old school, like you seen these? Like the size of your head, the crazy. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, how could you serve that? I think you have to cut it up.
All right, listen. I have not been uh you have a like we haven't even talked about half the stuff, but uh you and sons. I've not been to your ham bar and I I I love American ham more. Yeah, yeah, man. You gotta go.
Steve, I gotta come. And uh why don't you give a plug for where that is? So yeah, that's on uh in uh prospect Leverett's Garden at uh uh 447 Rogers Avenue. We have several little businesses there, but this is my little uh o to American ham, American American country ham, American cheese, old American wine back to the 50s, 22 seats, 400 square feet. Uh, and just really a love letter to American uh and you know what I you know what I loved on it is that you have a lot of new producers along with the old producers, like uh a lot of new stuff coming out of the Carolinas that you wouldn't have found like 15 years ago that I was like super excited about.
If I had another hour, I would talk to you about all of these hams. But uh, you know, please come back anytime. We'd love to have you back on the show. Andre Mack, cooking issues. All right.
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