Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Own, your host of Cookie Issues coming to you live from the heart of Manhattan, New York City, Rockefeller Center, New Stand Studios, joined as usual with John here in the studio. How you doing? Doing better, thank you. Oh, great, great.
Got uh Joe Hazen rocking the panels behind me. What's up, Joe? Hey, hey, hey. Yeah. Yeah, we're on a Monday today.
So if you're listening live on the Patreon, it's not our normal day. It's uh it's a Monday. Uh in uh we do not have Nastasi the Hammer Lopez due to COVID, and we don't have Jackie Molecules due to being on an airplane. However, we do have in the upper upper, upper left-hand corner, Quinn in Vancouver Island. How you doing, Quinn?
Yeah, I made it. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Well, you know, we gotta have somebody from that coaster.
It's just not a show, maybe. Maybe we maybe we're no longer uh a show that can only be on on one coast. I think if Quinn can't do it, then you gotta get Dax to call in finally, you know. Oh my god, from from Juno selling vapes. I never thought that like my son was like, what do you what are you selling?
Vapes. I'm like, really? Anyway. Uh I mean, look, kids gotta make money. Kids gotta make money, gotta make money.
That's what the kids do. They they do vapes now. I don't know. Whatever. I'm old, I don't get it.
Uh and today we have two very special guests uh in the studio uh from the new but not yet released, right? It's gone to some screenings, but it's not yet released. They're looking for wider um distribution documentary, Coldwater Kitchen. We have co-director Mark Kurlianchik and star and head chef of the program in it, uh Chef Jimmy Lee Hill. How you guys doing?
We're great. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Yeah, excited to be here. All right, so I should I mention a little something about what you do first, and then normally at the beginning of the show, what we do is we just talk about anything that's happened over the past week.
All right. But so fundamentally, uh, just to give you guys if you, you know, you you know, just tuning in, um, Mark was the uh food food critic for Detroit Free Press. And where the people there they call it Freep, right? They don't call it the Detroit Free Press. Yeah, or the free press, but free it's freep.com.
Freep.com the Freep. All right. Free. The Freep. Anyway, uh, and you get uh a letter, I guess, right?
Or an email saying, Hey, do you want to come to this uh dinner at the Lakeland Correctional Facility in Coldwater, Michigan, which is I guess I don't know what, like an hour outside? No, it's like two, two and a half hours almost outside of Detroit. Two and a half hours outside of Detroit. All right. Uh and why don't you talk about that that letter?
What happened? Yeah, so actually the the letter wasn't even an invite. It was from um, you know, uh uh an incarcerated man that said, Hey, I'm I'm at Lakeland Correctional Facility in this culinary program. I've been the Sioux chef for 20 years, and uh I think what we do here is pretty special, and you should come check it out. And it was kind of open-ended, and then that letter went in my you know, my messy desk and just kind of got lost for a little while.
And this is Ernest Davis who wrote your exactly this is Ernest Davis who's who's in the film. Um and you know, eventually I did get an email from Jimmy saying, Hey, I have this symposium every year where we invite outside chefs to come see what we do. You know, would you come too? And I I said, sure. I've actually heard heard from some other chefs in the community that like his program was legitimate.
You know, being two and a half hours outside of Detroit is a little hard to justify, you know, spending an entire day going out to prison. I'm the I was the restaurant critic, so you know, what am I doing at a prison? Um but when I got there, you know, I walked in and it was kind of um it wasn't the easiest situation because I didn't have any of my clearance forms submitted. I had uh you know a spiral bound notebook that the guard immediately looked at me and said, You can't bring that in. Um and I almost didn't get in.
And I had driven two and a half hours, woke up really early that morning to be there. Why? And because of the wire? Because of the because of the wire, exactly. If you have a pen, you have to have it has to be a clear pen, you know, so you're not smuggling anything in.
And so um eventually they let me in um with just my camera. And it was one of those things where, you know, like when you go to a great restaurant after having a a bad day, and um, you know, even just walking in, the smells, the energy, there's jazz music playing, and I'm like, where am I right now? Immediately all that all those negative emotions that I felt, you know, getting in kind of washed away. And then they had prepared a wild game feast. And I'm telling you, it was like roasted pheasant breasts with calvados cream sauce and avocado puree, duck confit salad, um seared bison with purple potato mash.
I mean, it was it was like out of a Jim Harrison essay, you know what I mean? It was it was almost like debaucherous. Somebody's pouring wine. I mean, it's not real wine, it's uh sparkling grape juice, but he's talking about the terroir. I'm like, what, you know, and outside of Right because he was sommelier training.
I read the read the article and like interested in local Michigan wines, like well at that point from a theoretical basis, but yeah. And then just outside of the classroom, there's this huge garden, it's the size of a football field where they're growing every I mean, asparagus, strawberries, uh squash, tomatoes. From the looks of it, some good stuff. Amazing stuff, amazing stuff. Um, and so yeah, I mean, so that was kind of the the beginning.
That was um that was more than six years ago now. But that's it, it's it's not it's not in the fruit belt of Michigan, though, right? It's in normal Michigan. It's in Southeast, yeah, exactly, Southeast Michigan. But you know, I mean, Michigan is the second most uh biodiverse agricultural state after California.
So things grow everywhere. You know, you don't have to be in the fruit belt necessarily. Um but yeah, so that was the beginning of it. I got in, I wrote a story about it for the free press. Um, you know, even there, so I have a background in documentary film as well.
I have a I went to Berkeley uh grad school for documentary, and I was kind of casting about for my next big project. And while sitting and having that lunch, I was like, this is you know, this story is only gonna scratch the surface. I need to spend some time here. We need to tell this deeper story and tell it widely because what's going on inside these prison walls is amazing. And uh, you know, and then learning a little bit more about Chef and kind of his his perspective.
Um I immediately started asking for for access and said, Hey, can I come back and bring video cameras? And uh one of the administrators basically immediately shut me down. He said, No, the the Michigan Department of Corrections does not allow video cameras, it's against our policy. So good luck. You know, you can talk to the PIO, but I doubt you'll get in here.
What's P A O Well? Public Information Officer. So the you know, the kind of the the person who interfaces with the press. Um and I did, and they like the story, I guess, enough to say, hey, come on back. We negotiated access and we shot for 18 months inside and then followed some of the guys outside of the as they kind of left the program and re-entered.
But is that the reason why all of the footage is inside the program? Because like there is zero access outside. Correct. I mean, we'll get back to it after we do our weekly chit chat, but I think one of the interesting things is uh uh about the the documentary, which I hope everyone hearing this gets to see eventually, um, is there's like multiple layers of inside outside, right? There's inside outside the the correctional facility itself, and then there's inside outside the program.
And it's really you get one version of inside in the program and one version of outside with uh you know two of the two of the people, and of course, you know, chef gets to go home every night. But um anyway, super super interesting. We'll get into it. But in the meantime, while people are digesting that, uh, if you happen to be listening live, I know a lot of you aren't because it's not our normal time. Call in your questions to 917 410 1507.
That's 917 410 1507. And uh, John, if they want to become a member of the Patreon, I want to tell them what they what they get. I wish I could get them an invite to this dinner, Chef. It sounds like a pretty hard invite to get. It's a little bit.
Yeah, yeah. Uh, but go check out patreon.com/slash cooking issues. There's a bunch of different membership levels. At each membership level, you got a bunch of awesome perks. Um access to our Discord, access to interesting 3D files that Dave puts out.
Um, just a whole bunch of great things. So yeah, patreon.com slash cooking issues. If you happen to want or need 3D files of giant jaggers and anyway, uh all right, anyone got anything uh good over the week? I know you guys uh have been kind of not on your home turf, so but maybe you've eaten at some good restaurants. You can talk about anything.
Anything? Well, we had a brunch yesterday at the platform by JBF. Yeah. So that was that was pretty cool. We, you know, we screened some some clips from the film, had a nice conversation.
Then it was in partnership with Down North Pizza out of Philly. I don't know if you guys are familiar with them, but they um they it's uh they only uh their entire staff is formerly incarcerated folks. And so it's a it's kind of a social enterprise, but it's a for-profit entity, and they they train folks who've who've you know come out of prison and uh yeah, and they make some pretty amazing Detroit inspired pizza, is how they gotta couch it. I mean, I only was I only ever went to Detroit one time and I had actual Detroit pizza. I I'd say like right before it exploded nationwide.
Nationwide now, like Detroit pizza is the the thing. It is. I have the legit pans if that's helpful. It it helps. The funny thing is like we never called it Detroit style pizza.
That's a that's a that's that's a function of its exportation. You know, at home, we just called it square. You got square around, and square is the Detroit style that that kind of everyone knows now. But if you go to like a different place that also makes a square style pizza that's totally different, are you like, what? Uh what?
You know what I mean? Because it's like not the same. I mean, like, I think functionally it has some very interesting properties, like the fact that you know the sauce goes on. Right. And so like for me, like that's great because my leftovers I think are better.
You know what I mean? Because I can I can not saw I can leave some if I know I'm not gonna cook it all, I can leave some sauce off of it and then do the boom reheat sauce and par anyway, whatever. I like it. That's good. Yeah, I don't have the official cheese though.
You guys use uh brick on that, right? Wisconsin brick, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's okay. You can, you know, you uh i we don't have to be dogmatic about it.
You can expand a little bit and interpret and reinvent. But you get to be dogmatic. That's the thing. If you're from an area where something is made, you're the ones who get to be dogmatic. We have you know I'll say this.
In Detroit, there's a there's an amazing um pizza place called Amar, and they're uh Bangladeshi. So it's a Bengali-owned pizzeria that does Detroit style, but they'll put like this uh fermented fish paste on top. It's really spicy or ghost pepper. It's it's you know, so it uses like Bengali ingredients on Detroit style. And to me, that's almost like that's almost the epitome of Detroit style now, because you're taking, you know, that that style that we've known since 1946, and now you're adding on this layer of of immigration and culture and really kind of mixing it up and turning it into something even better than the originals.
Yeah, wow. Dare I say. I'll try that. Uh, you know, but people are ho real pizza aficionados, which I know many are horrified whenever they eat pizza with me, because I always put salad on top. For the past like you know, 10, 15 years, I'm like, I just want to sell it on my on my pizza, you know?
That's a good move. Yeah, yeah. We approve. Yeah, all right. You know, it's fine.
Uh all right, so you were at the James Beard Foundation. You was is uh Kate still there from uh formerly MoFed? No. All right. But uh sorry's there, Sari.
Yes, but she does the platform 57. I think most of the time. That's where we were elsewhere. Oh, right, right here. Yeah, sorry, yes, yes.
Yeah, she's good people. She's great people, yeah. Yeah, so that's good. And you are gonna do a screening at uh Mofed, right? At IFC tonight.
IFC with MoFed. Oh man, I wish I could go. I'm opening a bar now. And so like every yeah, every square second, every whatever, is uh either that or like a you know, I'm being torn every every which way. Well, you've seen the film too, so I mean you can let somebody else take your place.
Ding ding. But uh, I think any anyone should go should go to see it, and we'll we'll talk about it uh in a minute. What about you, John? Oh, I served your fantastic mustard. You guys ever been to Ghent, Belgium?
No, no. Oh my god. So, like every everyone who listens to the show knows that the best mustard in the world comes from Ghent. So John brings me like some of this like fancy mustard that no mint metal is allowed to touch ever. I'm Belgian, too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. So uh the guys I'm opening the bar with, uh, fabulous and Jeremiah. So Jeremiah, I'm like talking about you.
He's like, who are you talking about? Who's John? And he's like, Oh, you mean Jean? I'm like, I'm like, yo, he goes by John when he's in Belgium, then he's Jean. But here he's he calls himself John, dude.
Like, pronounce shame me. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I work with the guy. You know what I mean?
Anyways, so like I got to serve someone that mustard for the first time in their lives yesterday, and that's always a treat. It is. It is. What do they think? Oh, they loved it.
First of all, I told him this. You know how when you serve something for the first time, you tell people the story because you gotta you gotta build it up. I'm like, I'm like, lady doesn't let you go downstairs. Lady doesn't let any metal touch her mustard. Lady has a special wooden grinder, wooden and stone grinder, and a special wooden tub and a wooden ladle that's a hundred years old.
She ladles it in. Metal never touches. She gets mad at you if you don't use refrigeration. She will not ship all this like stuff. Like, oh my God.
And then I cut him a giant slice of liverwurst, put it on some bread I've just made, and then whoosh the mustard. They're sold. They want to go to Ghent now. Good. They should.
Yeah. Awesome. Is it spicy? Very sharp. Yeah.
Good. Yeah. It's uh no, no inclusion. So, like, you know, much like uh like you know, John here, he likes things that are like so. It's like, you know, a lot of the mustards that we get, they're like, well, I have to add this, or I have to add that, or this is like vinegar, salt, mustard seed, water.
Period. Yeah. It looks like looks like a thin, like looks like tahini. Oh, interesting. Okay.
So it's thin. Uh it's like runny. No, no, no, but the color. In other words, it like it has a it has a peanut buttery tahini look to it. You know what I mean?
It no big seeds, no nothing. Anyway, on point. Uh all right, so what do you got? What do you got for this weekend? Uh, I've been doing a bunch of recipe testing still, which is going really well.
The carbonade in a stuffed pasta is working really well, though. I'm realizing my Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I forgot. You're doing like you're doing like a like a like a raviolo with within the colour. Well, I was trying to be a melody, but my fingers are too fat and my skills are too unpracticed to the same thing.
And also, also, man, you're you're in a real this is not like cooking dinner for like your family. This is real life restaurant. Go big so you don't have to make as many, dude. Exactly. Come on.
So it's gonna be like a ravioli kind of situation. Hey, you know, I learned some pasta stuff from watching the documentary. How you know how many years I've been making fresh pasta? 30, maybe, right? And uh, you know, more.
I never thought to Ouroboros, you know, to have the snake eat its own tail. I never thought about it. And then I'm watching uh, you know, one of the stars of the show, Ern Ernest Davis, who was your sous chef for like, I don't know, gotta be 20 years, right? Yeah, 20 years. He's sitting there and he's got the, he's got the snake eating its tail with the I was like, that dude's sheets are perfect.
You know what I mean? I was like, oh, so stupid. All you have to do is go to prison. Yeah. Yeah.
That's all it takes. You know, because like I was like, oh my so dumb. And then you can see how long it's getting. You don't need that extra hand feeding it this way because you got one hand on the on the on the paper towel roll thing as it goes bigger and bigger. And then you just one click boop boa boop, and you can keep running it through at a particular, what's it called, until it it looks right.
You know how, like, am I gonna run it through again or not? Doesn't matter because you didn't take it off the reel. And it's not like slipping and sliding. He doesn't have chewed up edges on it. The end of it's not some stupid thing that doesn't get cut right.
And then just one cut, boop, and he brings a perfect sheet over to the place where the guy's like, damn it. Damn it. Anyway. Clever. Yeah.
That's good. Do you think that needs the electric one? Or do you think you can get away with manual? It did it at the Lakeland Correctional Facility, they were using manual, I believe. I don't know.
Oh, they had it on the kitchen aid? Yeah, it was electric. Yeah, it was electric. You could do it manually because it only takes one hand. If you have two hands, you could do it one handed that way.
The I can never do it one handed because I'm always have one hand on the crank, and then I I can either guide in or I can guide out, but I can't do both. On here, you can do I bet you could do it uh. I mean, uh, it's nice to have the electric. I'm not gonna lie. But anyway, I built a I built an electric version once.
And yet still, after all that time, didn't think about no, I I built a KitchenAid wants too much money for their electric attachments. Too much money. Uh, you know, like for from Atlas, you can buy a pasta maker for like almost nothing on Facebook, they're free. People are like throwing them on the sidewalk, and then uh, you know, KitchenAid wants like, I don't know, like 150 or something like that. It's ridiculous.
So I have 3D printed an attachment for it. But now I'm not kitchen aid anymore. And I fear some big company, some big like food conglomerate also just came out and said we can't recommend KitchenAid anymore. Because they lost their way. You know what I mean?
Like they they the bowls don't fit up anymore. You have to lift the bowls up into the into the dang thing. They make a met they shoot stuff everywhere because the soft start isn't as soft start as it needs to be. There's like they're just like they need to, they need to go back and use their products more. You know what I mean?
We've all been using them for our whole lives. Our parents have been using them for their whole lives. And so they're like, we have America on lock. We don't need to do anything. You know what I mean?
We'll just make it bigger. So they make giant ones. They'll make they make a Kitchen Aid now. It's like halfway to a Hobart, but like, you know, it's the fit and fit. Oh, whatever, man.
That's why like I moved to I moved, I moved Swedish. First I moved German, then I moved Swedish. Now I'm Swedish. But I have to say, I love the Ankar Some. I'm still trying to figure out how to make brioche in that thing.
You know what I mean? KitchenAid still does a better job on brioche. So no one's perfect. No one and nothing is perfect. I'll tell you what I did this week.
Uh so I make I've been making a lot of flour tortillas, but I ran out of my favorite wheat, which is uh uh white Sonoran, Sonora White, which is like the wheat that like flour tortillas, like you know, Sonoran wheat that it came out of. And it's got very high protein, so it's got good bite. Uh and when you grind it, whole wheat, it has very, very, very high water absorption. So you can put a lot of water into the dough and still roll it out and not have it stick. And so that means that when you roll it out, it can puff a lot because you can make a very high hydration dough and boom, you can puff it.
And so I was doing it not comal style. I was doing it more chapati style. So griddle, griddle, fire, boom, pillows, right? And like beautiful pillows. And when you make a pillow, when when you're when your tortillas or whatever, your flatbreads, whatever you want to call them, when they puff up like a pillow on the flame, you're just like you like love it.
You know what I mean? Because it means it's gonna be delicious, delicious. And Sonoran White is the best tasting wheat anyway, for that. But Durham has the same stuff. I have a bunch of Durham around.
I ain't grinding wheat for pasta because no thanks. Anyway, so like I had all this durum. I was like, Durham's extraordinarily high protein, hard wheat, but doesn't have a lot of um, it's not as snapback when you when you're rolling it. And it made fantastic uh got up to 80% hydration, could still roll it out whole wheat. That's what I do this week.
What do you what are you filling those tortillas with? I like whatever people have. So like I have a combination of like yesterday I had like 20 people over, and uh we had a combination vegetarian, not vegetarian. So I I make like a standard like kind of pork chili like pasilla, ancho guajillo mix, you know, uh pressure cook that down with uh my trick is I blend the skin in. So I I pressure cook the skin along with the stuff.
Then when I I pull the pork out to sh to shred it up, I take the leftovers and boom, blend the skin in so that when it gets cold, it's like a ping pong ball. Boom, boom, but it's like, you know, very and then uh I also do a bean, a chili bean thing, and then like you know, that that's what people like. That's what they want at my house. Yeah, yeah. I want it right now.
Yeah. Um, all right, Quinn, you got anything before we go on to the documentary? Uh I got not I didn't do too much this week. We did some um deep frilling over the weekend. Oh, yeah.
I did like a uh sort of Scottish style chip shop dinner. So we did uh beer battered haggis and then halibut, and I did play around with that um stabilized vinegar idea that we talked about. But you want you want it soupy. You want it you don't want it like spreadable, you want it soupy. I like I want syrupy.
Okay, how'd it work out? Good. Again, I I overdid it at first, and it was actually probably what you would have wanted, and then I just eyeballed a little bit of vinegar. I posted Hold up. It's not what I want.
I don't want it to be made spreadable with the stuff you were using, man. I want it to be made spreadable as a fluid gel, not spread. I'm talking about okay. I think it was the texture you would have gone for. Okay, like hair gel slash snot.
Yeah. That's not what I'm going for. I'm not going for hair gel snot. But you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, all right.
All right. And then I had a little vinegar, got it to where I liked it, and it worked out pretty good. So I I need to do a second pass to see if I can like nail down the ratios first thing. You didn't fry Mars bars, no fried Mars bars. Not really Scottish then.
We did fr we actually did fried Kit Kat yesterday. We were gonna do the dinner and dessert all at once, but you know, we we sort of ran out of steam. Yeah, you what you need to do is buy that Belgian fryer like I told you to, that is 3,000 watts. And then take the two to 220, get someone to run 220 from the laundry room into where you are, so you can fry the way that you're intended to fry. That's what I'm doing.
By the way, people, just so you know, I haven't had time because I got the book, I got the bar, I got all this, but I got the two heating elements in, and I'm gonna convert my countertop fryer to be three thousand watts so I can fry like just like any basic idiot European person can fry with more power. Uh anyway. Uh how uh okay briefly tell me about your haggis. Oats, did you get lungs? Can you buy lungs there?
We we we bought the haggis. Oh come on, man. So I don't I don't know. They came in the can. It was decent.
All right, listen. Can you buy lungs in uh in uh what's it called in Canada? Is it legal over there? Uh I forget. I feel like maybe they are.
I don't remember if we have the same well, if I ever chu like you took the cave. I think it lists all the all the different pieces. In your family, do you make uh what my family calls uh sofrito, which is lungs and heart chopped up? No. I don't think we've ever made that.
So maybe you're not allowed to have lung, because I feel that's one of the things that like a lot of cause your family's southern Italian, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like one of the things that like I know cause my my father my stepfather's father and you know, before him, eight billion generations butchers, and uh that's one of the things that they only could sneak growing up because he still slaughtered his own like animals back in the day. Uh, but it was totally illegal to sell lungs. So that's one of the kind of culinary traditions that uh in the US has died out among that kind of subset of Italians just because it's not legal to buy, you know.
I really have a few memories of my grandparents breaking down full animals. Maybe they did that when my dad was growing up, but I'll have to ask him. Hmm. All right. Now, let's get to cold water kitchen.
So actually, going to uh Italian foods, one of the stars of the of the movie, and the one that I still don't know what happened to, because as of the time that you had written the or you know, produced the the movie, uh, he's still incarcerated and he had left the program. I don't know whether we should talk about this first or later, because it's kind of like a lot of complicated issues within his story that I think point to a lot of things that I found uh interesting. But uh you did a full-on Italian uh dinner with uh Bradley Leonard, who is you know at least part uh Sicilian American and an ex uh line cook, you know, uh, you know, in New York, in Detroit, all over dude uh gets um, you know, goes to goes to prison, uh, you know, did bad stuff, goes to prison. And then what's interesting is Chef, you have to normally be in for at least five years to apply to your program, right? Yeah, so it depends on on the crime that you have committed.
Uh if it's a violent crime, you know, that they kind of make you walk it down until you're assumed safe or but uh yes about five. Yeah, and so you know, I think uh he was only his his minimum was like seven, and he he didn't feel like he had the the the time, but because he had the uh skills, you let him come in as uh instructor, as a tutor, I guess is the term. Yeah, he couldn't get into the uh the class portion, but I thought, you know, uh I can make him a tutor because I watched him and you know, he was nice on the line. You know, he had great skills and and you know, he knew a way around the kitchen. So I thought I'm gonna I'm gonna make him a tutor because I was always telling my other guys about how much speed you need when you're on that line.
You just can't stand one one spot. You need to be mobile. And so I brought Brad in to show them. And uh it just it just worked. Yeah, I mean, it looked like he was I mean, it looked like he was thriving there.
Um I mean that I guess, you know, like as usual, I'm all over the place and backwards and forwards at the same time. So we'll start here. Like uh, so he, you know, he had, or you know, I guess you don't kick having the the issue, right? He he's uh was an as an addict, and then that caused him to, you know, he has an addictive personality. And in his opinion, so he says in the in the film, the cooking itself became part of the addiction.
Going to the class, uh or teaching the class, like being on that line, was feeding himself in that same way. And he was using it almost as a drug, the ability to to do that. And uh is that something that was a can unique unique to him, or is that something that you have to deal with all the time? You're providing something that's kind of so much outside the general like daily life of the other uh people who are incarcerated there. Um what's that?
What what did you feel when you saw it when you saw that when you saw his response to what was going on inside? Well, I thought that, you know, he needed uh to be in that that comfort zone because that's what he was used to in terms of of the working in the kitchen. And so we tried to keep him uh really motivated, try to keep him in terms of teaching uh the students about the the use of the herbs, because we have an herb garden outside and we have all these different herbs, and so we would go out and have tastings. And so he would take out four or five guys in a group and pick a piece of uh maybe chive and explain about the chive and the family that is is a part of, and then also the blossom. And a lot of a lot of the guys didn't know that you could eat that blossom.
And so once they taste it, it it was, you know, so had that onion flavor. And uh they they really did look up at Brad because he knew a lot about uh, you know, just various items in in the food world. So he he needed to be there because that kept him his level of of comfort was was better there. Yeah, and for those of you that haven't seen it, which is mostly you got you gotta go see it, like they're not cooking trash food, like you know, like they're cooking like good food. You know what I mean?
Like I'm talking not just good food, like food that like a lot of Americans haven't cooked, period. Like they're doing rabbits, they're doing whole rabbits, you know, uh like stewing them down, they're like showing them how to uh cook shock, break down lobsters. They're showing like, you know, all sorts of like because the goal, right, isn't to just teach someone how to cook, it's that they can have a job in like a good restaurant. So that you need, in other words, like and and it intimates, doesn't go too deep into it on this, but it intimates that some people are like, well, why do you need to spend this kind of money on these on these folks with all this good food? And you know, a lot of people can't afford this kind of good food.
And I think, you know, you make a very, I think, clear point that like, you know, w what are we what are we supposed to do? You can't I can't teach them how to I can't teach them how to be a restaurant cook with trash. You know what I mean? It's not uh I always thought that they would need they need to know more than hamburgers and french fries. So that's why I chose the high end items, you know, so we would they'd have uh access to it and be able to feel it and and work with it and and it changed their mindset about you know different uh say wild game items.
A lot of them had never had rabbit before. Uh and they had this picture in their mind of eating bugs bunny, and it was nothing like that. Because rabbit is is really it's it's really good. And so once we start, you know, using it and preparing it, it just everything clicked. And so they want to do more.
And they always want to do more because now they're into the food. And you know, they're they're becoming a foodie right in front of us. And so they just want to just know more, no more. And it's it's really like a sponge. They they absorb so much on purpose because they they're trying to make a point that you know, society said, I'm I'm supposed to be here, but I'm telling you, when I get up out of here, I I'm gonna show them what it was that that I you know learned.
Well, and speaking of, so I mean, I guess then you've been this is your I don't know where they said on error beforehand, but this is your 39th year running the running this program. This November will be. Right. So you're not uh this isn't something that you just tested out yesterday and you don't know whether it whether it works or not. Yes, sir.
Yeah. And uh I looked at the the numbers, and the uh the recidivism rate in your program is not only uh three and a half times lower than the recidivism rate for the pre that correctional facility in general, but like even much, much lower than Michigan in general. You're at like six percent, which is crazy. Crazy. Uh I mean, crazy good numbers.
So that's gotta be gratifying. And like what like other than just you being able to run that program, what is it about cooking you think that helps that? Or is it by the way, I'll load this as a front so you feel free to talk a long time with the answer because one of the other issues, I felt like I was like uh my mom had this same problem. No one wants you to retire. And all of anything it says, oh, he's gonna retire soon.
He's been doing it for 39 years. No one wants you to retire because no one thinks that someone can fill that hole. My mom is the same way, right? She had a you know, it's we're all replaceable because we all die, the world goes on, right? But some people fill a niche that's harder to to immediately fill it, fill than others.
So you gotta you gotta feel that. So how much of it's cooking, how much do you think you can pass on to the next person and go for it? I'm not I won't be able to pass on to the next person because it's a civil service job. And so it is a it's an interview process. And so I won't be on that interview panel because I will be gone.
And uh so it's up to someone else. That's so dumb. Look at it and go, okay, I think this guy could could fill that slot. Uh so I don't know. So that's so rough.
That's so anti-cooking. You know what I mean? It's like it's anti, because you're clearly very cooking, hospitality-minded, you know, family-minded, uh, which is I think all like a I think most really good cooks are in some way or another. You know what I mean? And uh it just seems a bizarre way to come up with the person who's gonna fill the shoes, right?
No, it's very bureaucratic. I mean, it is the Michigan Department of Corrections at the end of the day. I mean, Chef, I know that you're employed by the by them, so you can't say anything one way or the other. But here's another one that maybe you can comment on, Chef. Maybe you can't.
One of the main things I learned in this film, and they mention it m several times. John, I I know you watched the film yet? Yeah. I I think most people will be shocked by this. So I'll give you an example.
Ernest Davis, the person who was uh Chef Hill's uh sous chef for 20 years, and you know, like you see him, he's like working. He's the guy that taught me that I could uh, you know, snake eating its own tail, the uh the uh pasta sheet, uh, you know. He gets out, he gets sent to he gets sent in when he's seven, well I guess he's 18. He's the crime was when he was 17 years old. He's a minor.
He's sentenced to prison to for life without parole. It finally gets overturned because of course that's crazy to send a minor to life without parole. It's uh felony murder rap that his uncle did, but he was with it when it happened, blah, blah, blah. Whatever. Uh, but you know, looks like not only a great cook, right?
Looks like a really good kitchen presence. Now, from an outside perspective, I'm watching, you know, I'm watching him helping other people in the kitchen. Just looks like a genuine delight to have in the kitchen. Is that true, Chef, or no? Yeah, he's uh he's full of character.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, needling needling you on the side, but not in a disrespectful way. You know, yeah. Right. Yeah.
And uh so he um, you know, they he he gets paroled finally, right? They overturn the life without without without parole. And then but he's now he's on probation. And here's what I had no idea. I had no idea of the I mean, I know the barriers in general that you have to check off that you've been in prison before, all the all those stupid barriers.
But get this. You so Chef Hill is not allowed to have contact with any of the people once they get out until they're quote unquote off paper, until they're not on probation anymore. He is not allowed by the state of Michigan to have any contact with these folks whatsoever. So he goes from being their lifeline to like he has to drop off the face of the earth. And to me, that's bonkers.
But but but but bonkers, bonkers. And then you have it like uh it's other things that you might not think about, right? When someone's on, if you want to work in a restaurant, you're around liquor pretty much, period. Unless you're at one of these, like, you know, there's you know, some restaurants that have no liquor and they have no liquor license, whatever, but like the majority of fine dining places, there's there's liquor involved. So you see um, you know, the one of the other stars in in the show, uh um uh Dink Dawson, right?
When when he gets out, it's probation officers like, well, you can't go to bars and you can't be around. He's like, uh I'm a chef. And like, it's like well come on, you know what I mean? And uh I just I guess didn't have a sense. I'm too sheltered from it.
I didn't have a sense of all of the barriers that are thrown in the way of people just trying to get out and uh oh, get this. This is not for nothing, but so uh Ernest, when he leaves, somehow the state has decided he has a three thousand dollar debt or two thousand. It's the cost of the tether, essentially. So he has a he has to wear a tether when he's on parole and he has to pay for the cost of the tether, which costs two thousand dollars. Like he asked for it.
Right. Um, so you know, and chef, I know maybe you can't comment on this kind of stuff, but is there any move to change some of these? Well, that's that's certainly part of our impact campaign. It's what it's one of the reasons that we sort of highlighted it in the film so much because it is one of those things that seems like a simple, you know, you can make some there there can be a gray area for people like Chef where, you know, if he's been a mentor to somebody, he should be able to mentor them once they're out, you know. And part of this is it's the rule is called overfamiliarity.
And it's written very broadly, basically to prevent um, you know, people who are outside or are not incarcerated, but are interfacing with with the prisoner population um to prevent them from developing a deeper relationship that then could turn into something nefarious, or they could, you know, that's kind of how they how they couch it. Um so even when we were filming, um Brian Kaufman and I, my co-director and I, we were, you know, we we kind of went through casting, we interviewed everybody in the program, we got our four guys, and then we became um, you know, we we were communicating with them uh through JPEG, which is kind of like a text message sort of email um that that the incarcerated have access to. And but because we were going into the prison monthly on a regular basis, we were considered vendors, and so we couldn't have contact, you know, we we basically got our hands slapped for that because we were, you know, keeping contact with the folks that we were gonna see next month anyway, and we're just trying to get more of their story from, but that was that was against their overfamiliarity rule. So, you know, that's what we're really trying to make. I'm glad that you brought it up and that it resonated so much because I think that we can put a little bit of pressure on the MDOC to at least, you know, put a little asterisk next to that for cases like Jimmy's where where contact could be very helpful to these folks as they reenter society.
I mean, I'm sure it's the same for everything. I'm sure it's the same for everything everywhere, but I know mainly cooks and bar people. And we're it's we're a mentor-driven profession. You know what I mean? Um, so you know, it's gotta hurt.
I mean, and they know it's not your fault, Chef, obviously. They know that you can't do anything about it, but still it's gotta freaking hurt on both sides. You know what I mean? Um Yeah. Yeah.
That um Ernest had a four-year tail. That means he had four years once he got out before he could, you know, have access. And uh, so it was a long time. Um, but you know, we do what we're supposed to do uh to make sure that nobody gets violated, him and or me. Yeah.
So uh it just you you know, you wait you wait the time out and then you pick up. Right. I mean, it seems like n some people are somewhat compassionate. Like uh Dink Dawson said that like a friend of his called who was inside and you know, really needed some support. And so he's like, I gave the guy support because he needed some help that day, and somehow my probation officer didn't find out about it, but thank goodness they didn't violate me.
Yeah, you know what I mean? But well, this is a common rule. This isn't just in Michigan. Yesterday on the on the panel, um, the founder of Down North was talking about how a lot of his guys are are on probation when they're working. And technically they're all in violation of this overfamiliarity rule because you're not supposed to have any contact with anybody else that is, you know, in the system.
Which is just bananas. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's nuts. You know, and first of all, like I mean, it just seems strange that somehow I mean, uh, whatever.
Again, just naivete, not not knowing a lot about the way that the system works, but the fact that you're held somehow to an incredibly higher standard than the average person for, you know, while you're trying to get a job and get back on your feet just seems counter counterproductive. The whole recidivism thing, um, you know, and again, I I I hate to keep quoting him, but but the founder of Down North yesterday was talking about how recidivism actually benefits the state. You know, there are these these prisons that operate and they make revenue based on bodies, and there's there are cells to fill. And so, you know, even though they can talk about lowering recidivism rates and rehabilitation, at the end of the day, they need bodies in these facilities. And so, you know, those barriers are erected um to ensure that those bodies do come back.
Brutal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, it is. It's a brutal system. That's that's all I can say about that. So uh talking about some of these uh people. Where's Ernest cooking today?
He just got a job. He's in Benton Harbor. So actually Ernest is with us here. He's in he's somewhere roaming Manhattan right now. Yeah, nice.
Um he got a job. He's he's kind of bounced around restaurant jobs in Benton Harbor, but he's working at uh at like a bar and grill in his hometown of of Benton Harbor, and he's been there for about a month now. He didn't he didn't get that place that he was uh looking at that was for rent? Not that one. He did try to open one, you know, a few months back, and but you the cost of that is not exorbitant.
So believe me. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, I think especially in the program too, you know, somebody in his state where he's been locked up for 35 years, you know, you make a lot of uh plans and and some of them maybe, you know, once you get out, the reality sets in, and then you realize, oh, there's th this is gonna take a lot more work than than I had anticipated. It's not like you you're gonna get out on Monday and open a restaurant on Friday.
Right. Well, interesting though, what like was I I mean, hopefully it's still got I checked that it's still still going is uh the uh Green Mile uh grill. Oh yeah. Uh started as what was started as tr trap kitchen and he got sued by someone in uh in uh threatened threatened with a lawsuit out of California. Well he had a really good attitude about it.
He's like, I don't care, I'll use a different name anyway. Anyways, but uh so he gets a job at uh a good place, and he's actually pretty politically nice, right? In in the in the in the dock. Uh feels like he's uh accused of stealing something at the restaurant and feels like they could go to his probate officer and use it as a lever against him. Exactly.
And so then has to quit. I'm sure this happens a lot. Well, that's the vulnerability, right? It's like if if somebody, if you get out and then you know, you're working with somebody that you don't get along with, all it takes for them is to accuse you of something for the parole officer to get involved, and then all of a sudden you're on trial again. You know, and so that that ev even just that status makes you so vulnerable in these in these spaces where you're interacting with all kinds of different people who may have, you know, different uh different motives of their own.
Yeah, but then so he was then able to open his own place with his daughter. His daughter is his uh his Sioux chef, or I guess they're partners now, I don't know. But uh if I ever get to go back to Detroit, I'll check it out. Yeah, you'll have to. Yeah.
Uh all right. So what's up for you guys? Uh what's up, you guys next in terms of trying to get how hard is it to get distribution for some for something like this? Well, it's tough, you know, unless you're, you know, you're uh making a film about a celebrity. Um right now the distribution the document it's one of the hardest times right now to get that distribution for documentary.
Um I think the year that that our film uh debuted at Doc NYC here in uh 2022, that year, Sundance, there are only like four films that were bought out of Sundance. You know, there's a lot of uh CNN closed down their documentary department. So there's just a lot l fewer avenues despite this whole streaming boom that which is kind of coming to an end. The gold rush is over. And so um on the one hand, it's been a struggle to find distribution.
We are still actively working for distribution. On the other hand, it's forced us to sort of pivot and take matters into our own hands. And so we're really focusing on this impact campaign. So this is really the first stop of our of our impact campaign. We've got some funding from uh the Michigan Justice Fund, uh always looking for more funds.
But essentially we're gonna be taking the film um and doing these kind of dinner and a movie events in 12 different cities all around the country. Um the next one is in Lansing because there's a big a big political convening and we want to get this in front of legislators as well, so that you know they can understand these issues in a way that that maybe they didn't before because it, you know, hopefully it humanizes them and makes you aware of things that, you know, as you said, you didn't even know because you weren't thinking about them. Right, but who but who makes these policies? Like in other words, is is this just administrative policy or is this a legislative policy? That's a good question.
Legislator? Yeah, okay. So it is legislative. Uh so then it's gonna be like molasses. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, you know, the wheels of justice crack slow and all that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so anyway, so we're taking the film on the road across America.
And uh, we also got word that the film was selected by the American Film Showcase. And what that means is that next year it's actually uh it's part of the US State Department's one-on-one diplomacy efforts. So next year we will be taking the film all over the world to embassies all around the world that want to basically have discussions around the themes that that the film brings up. So, you know, e even though it's not widely available yet, you know, to stream on on Hulu or whatever, we we hope it that's where it's gonna end up, but we have a very long tail. Specifically there, is that why you mentioned it?
No, no, no, no. I mean, any any streamer is fine. Hey, PBS, HPO, hi. Yeah. Well, I I it's I guess it's like you're right, it's so weird.
Like uh, I don't really understand the economics of it. Like you you've already made the film. You know what I mean? Yeah. The world is a weird place.
Well, and uh, you know, the thing that we've been able to see though is the way that the audience responds to this. So, you know, uh on the flip side, it's nice that that it wasn't just picked up by Netflix and then streamed and then forgotten the next week. We've actually been able to take this um and and take it to places all around the country, you know, in front of audiences who respond in person, um, oftentimes by folks who've been affected by the by the carceral system or people who have the power to change it, you know, and uh and that's been kind of more heartening. As a filmmaker, one of my favorite things is sitting in a theater full of people who've never seen the film before and just experience their emotional response to the film through osmosis. You know, that's like that's that's the whole that's the whole gig right there is is seeing it on the big screen with an audience.
And so we've been able to do that over and over and over again. And if this if this tour lasts, you know, longer at the expense of wider distribution, I'm perfectly happy with that. Hey Chef, who's mining the kitchen while you're here in New York? Uh no one. Yeah, they uh you know it it's a class that uh is run by me.
And so when I'm not there, you know, they there's no class that day, or in this case, you know, two or three days. Uh but uh, you know, they, you know, they look forward to uh to class time because I mean not only does it bring them back to class to where it's more of a comfort, you know, it's like being in prison away from prison. That's how I set it up. So you could come in and you know have a clear thought pattern, you know, and and things are going on outside on the on the on the yard. Uh but it's hard to really think clearly out there.
So when you come to class, you know, the the setting is like, you know, warm colors and you know, in the morning we play like, you know, worship music and in the afternoon it's jazz. So you get a chance to clear their head, do what they're supposed to do bookwork wise, but also try to think about those problems that that are going on outside of the fence at home that they can't put their hands on, but they can have a clear path to think, you know, some things out and then call home and say, hey, well, you know, we you should probably do this or make sure that you know she doesn't do this. And so that's how it's set up. So they look forward to to those class days. Can you talk a little bit because I know like I say before, like uh there's kind of multiple insides and outsides in the in the in the documentary it's alluded to a lot that uh sometimes people in the program take flack once they get, you know, outside of the of the program into the kind of the, you know, wherever their their cell is or whether the general population is w like what is the what are the main pressures that they're feeling when they leave the classroom and go back at the end of the day.
Food. Everybody wants to be in that class and or get something out of the class. And food is a it's a moneymaker. You know, so there's always some type of pressure on somebody that's in the class to say, hey, you know, why don't you bring me uh some of those eggs? Or, you know, I heard y'all having chicken next week.
So, you know, let me get, you know, two or three pieces of chicken, and you know, they'll try to flip that two or three pieces of chicken into four or five bags of instant coffee or whatever the going rate is out there on on the yard. So that's the pressure part for the for the students. Some cave in, a lot of them don't, because they know that they could mess it up for the rest of the class. I mean, uh, it's it seems like it's like a higher stakes version of what happens in a regular restaurant. People skim, people steal, people, you know, eat, they take stuff that they shouldn't get fired or whatever.
But uh, I don't know, it's just I mean the stakes seem so much like there's I mean, uh are spoilers okay a little bit. It's not a spoiler, but uh, you know, somebody steals somebody steals one of the pieces of silverware, you know, not silverware, they're plastic or whatever. But like, you know, steals one, and you know, they end up doing something bad with it. Not terrible, but like, you know, they you know, turn it into a weapon fundamentally. And uh, you know, you have this convert you have this like several conversations about it.
Uh, you know, I think the sec I don't know whether the second conversation about someone stealing from you is the same conversation or not, but it's um yeah, I just felt higher stakes then because I've had these conversations with people at the bar, people at the restaurant, but it just seems so much more hardcore because I feel like at any minute someone could be like, No, we can't do this anymore. You know what I mean? It is high. I mean, that's prison for you, though. It's like it's it's life or death sometimes, you know.
And and as Brad so pointedly says at the beginning of the film, food is money in prison. And so, you know, when you have money, you're walking around the yard, or access to that money, you become a target. Yeah, he's an interesting character, right? He's like uh I have he's like, I have no gang affiliations. Which hurts him.
Yeah. He's uh, you know, he's compelling. Sometimes he's honest, but he tells you he's a liar. You know what I mean? It's uh He's also a quote machine.
I mean, we had to unfortunately leave a lot of his best not not best, I think we we we kept some of the best quotes, but you know, he's just so cogent in in his sort of thinking and the way that he can kind of be incisive and and sum things up in metaphor. I mean, he's he's kind of poetic in a way. Um and that's why, you know, when when we sat the process of the film, we sat everybody in the classroom. So it was 50 students at the time when we got in there, everybody in the classroom down one by one and did it, you know, one on one interviews with them to sort of cast for our main characters. And with Brad, it was instant.
It was just, you know, he kind of started talking, and then I I think most of those most of what he said in that first interview actually made it into the film because he was just so so pointed and and honest, but then you also knew that he wasn't being fully honest, but also that could be because of his situation, obviously. You know, when you're dealing with incarcerated folks, there's a lot of things that they can't say because it you know, and he's still incarcerated. And so he's eligible this year though, right? Well, Brad's journey has been a little rough since he's left Coldwater. Um he's been bounced around from from facility to facility.
He's been attacked pretty brutally a number of times. He's survived those attacks, thankfully. Um and he was eligible for parole in February, this past February. And uh the parole board hearing went great. Um, but unfortunately he was tossed from so you have to take a class.
Um if you have if you're if your crime or your offense has something to do with drugs or alcohol, you have to take this class. Um, and it's basically like a uh an alcohol and substance abuse and trauma treatment class. Um and uh Brad was tossed from that class twice now. And so I you know ideally you would take that class early because if you're struggling with addiction, you need to learn these things while you're in prison. Right.
But the way that plus you need to take the class, you need to take a class, get it out of the way. But they only allow you to take the class within your last six months of incarceration. And so he struggled with that class. I mean, part of it too is that it's a group trauma class where you have to be very open and candid about your traumas. And uh unfortunately for Brad, a lot of his um harassers are a part of that group.
And so, you know, so then he can't fully participate, and that that causes all kinds of issues for him. And so no safe spot. Exactly. And so um, you know, we actually just went and visited him and saw him uh at the last facility he was at, and this was just a month ago. Uh, and he, you know, he had a light at the end of the tunnel, he had that February date, and now he feels like there is no light.
What do they what is it once a year? What is it? Yeah, the parole board is once a year, but it's not even the the parole board isn't the issue, it's he has to finish this class. Right. Um but his sentence could be quite long, right?
Wasn't it like seven to thirty or something crazy? Yeah, the maximum is thirty. So he's past his minimum now. February would have been his minimum. Um and you know, the the sad thing is he just he just really needs help not punishment.
You know he's he's not he's not a danger to society. He's not a dangerous individual. He just struggles very deeply with addiction and uh and he wants not you know all he wants to do is overcome it. But as he says in the film like throwing an addict into a a a a system like prison is like throwing a a rabbit into a wolves den, you know, expecting him to be able to to run faster and uh it just doesn't work. And so he's really he's really struggled and um yeah we're we're hoping that that things turn around for him.
Yeah. I won't uh his his scenes there's a big big dramatic arc in this I won't go into those. You have to watch the movie to see but but um one of the funny scenes I will say though is uh so they're doing you have two main big uh out meals that outsiders are allowed to go to right the yeah so the one you decide to allow uh Brad to Bradley to do uh Italian yeah and he's testing out the the dishes and so you know he does this like you know they totally clean clean squid body stuffed like you know the toothpick pan and he's coming out and he's doing the plate and he has this sauce that he like brushes around the the plate and chef's like I don't like it and you know what Chef I totally agree with you. You're like I look at this this looks like dirt. I was like dirty it looked dirty looked like dirt that I I did not like that plating either he ended up with like a a variation on it with just one line like one line, but not like if the other one looked like you rimmed the plate in filth.
Yeah. And that was the that was the give and take. You know, I was like, you know what, man, I just, you know, this plate looks dirty to me. And he said, Well, I like it. I said, Well, you know what?
That's that's that's your child. And you know, hard head fred. He just he just he had to have it his way. So we we came to a happy medium to where, okay, I'll let you do one brush stroke uh from one side of the plate to the other. And so that's what we came up with.
So funny. Yeah, because like the other thing I think is uh is interesting, and I don't know, maybe you can talk about it. Everyone knows, you know, who's worked in a in a in a kitchen that they only work because there's a hierarchy, right? But the question is like, how do you how do you run that that hierarchy? And you know, you're dealing with uh, you know, you're dealing with all these people, have all these other pressures on them when they when they lead your class, but you seem to be able to do it, you seem to get a lot of respect out of the people without having to go ballistic on them.
I mean, there's always the threat that we could all be shut down at any minute and like you know, all of those things, but how hard is it to ride the line with like a bunch of people that are in such a rough like emotional place, you know like at any minute, like violent, they they could be a victim of violence, there all these things could happen to them, and yet you're treating them in a way that they have to respect you, but clearly there's respect back, which I don't know if they're getting outside of your class. It it is uh, you know, respect uh plays a big part on on all of us, you know, because they have to respect their classmates and and everybody, you know, they want to make sure that you know that you've got six numbers on your back, just like I do, so you don't tell me what to do if it's a student against another student. Uh but I try to push the fact that, you know, hey, everybody in here needs to get along. I'm not saying that you gotta go outside of class when it's over and break bread with each other, but in here, we're gonna be about the business of food service, and we're gonna get along because this is the spot where you can come and be able to do that to get along without no pressures. And so a lot of them, you know, they accept that.
Yes, a few. Every now and then you get some bone heads, you know, but but that's that's in every job code. Uh so they for the most part, they all get along uh between that. I've got them for three and a half hours uh per day. The the tutors are there all day, so they're there, you know, from from eight to to four thirty.
That's a really good job to get. Yeah, yeah. So and the tutors, they make sure that, you know, these guys follow, you know, protocol and and everything. And uh because no one wants to get it messed up for everybody else. Yeah, Jimmy's created a sanctuary in a in a chaotic and violent place, and and uh and I think that people the folks that are in the program respect that and and know that you know if if they messed it up, then that sanctuary is gone and then they have no no sanctuary to go to.
Yeah, uh that means we have that means we have we have two minutes left. Um man, yeah, so uh in case I forget to say it again, the documentary is Coldwater Kitchen and hopefully soon streaming at a place near you. Uh where are you le where are you gonna have uh street s uh screenings after New York City? Uh so Lansing comes, Lansing, Michigan comes next. We're gonna be in LA in the fall.
I think there's some other things happening that we're still kind of figuring out the details, but I know we'll be in LA in October for sure. And where should they go? Uh where should they go to find more? I know your curly handshake on the uh on the Instagram. What about you, Chef?
What's your Instagram? You have you do that? At Jimmy Lee Tebow Hill. No, at Jimmy Lee T Bowl. At Jimmy Lee Tebow on Instagram?
Coldwater Kitchen Documentary is the uh Instagram handle, and then the website is Coldwater Kitchen.film. You can go there, sign up for the newsletter and stay updated on all the latest. And by the way, we have another connection. Uh one of your uh producers is uh Desiree uh Vincent Levy, who's uh the board of Mofad. You know, uh Museum of Food and Drink, where you guys are doing your thing uh or with whom you're doing your thing tonight.
So we're super excited to uh have you on. One thing, how much time do I have left? 51 seconds? So another thing I thought was interesting, and I I usually end on something stupid, so I don't know why I'm ending on something emotional, but like I thought one of the roughest moments is when Chef, you're like, I have to come here and kind of be this mentor to all of you when in reality a lot of times I am miserable. I am beat down.
And so like like that moment when like it's like this like weight, you know, and like I just think like anyone who runs a kitchen, there's a lot of weight on them. But for you, I mean it's like three, four times that weight. It's gotta be bananas to do it for 39 years. So what are you what are you thinking? How how much more how much more can you take?
You know, I I think I got uh I think I got a couple more in me. Yeah. Yeah, but it's just uh anyway, I was thinking of that uh what's that song? Anyway, the the the idea to have to go to do that, and there's like uh there's a bunch of them, there's a bunch of moments like that. I think everyone should go see the film.
I'm not gonna give you all of the not gonna give you everything because if if I gave you everything, you wouldn't have to go see it. But anyway, folks, thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for having us. Uh it's been a pleasure. Uh I someday I want to get an invite to come out to that one of those dinners.
Yeah. All right, cooking issues.
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