Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you alive from the heart of Manhattan Rockefeller Center, New York City, New State of Studios, joined as usual with John Bahani. How you doing, John? Doing great, thanks. You're back.
You missed last week, I think. But it was because it was on the wrong day, yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, couldn't be there. Yeah, how's it?
How's it going? It's going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Still still sucking in wind, as they say. Yeah, yeah. Somehow. Yeah, I know, right? Why?
Uh got uh Joe Hazenrock in the panels. How you doing? I'm doing very well. Welcome everybody. You got a full house.
Yeah, almost. We do almost. We do not yet in the upper left-hand corner have Quinn, but we hope to get him later on in the program. He's feeling a little bit under the weather, but we do have Jackie Molecules. How you doing?
Yeah. Yeah, well, we'll talk about that in a minute. And of course not least, back from uh just got back in LA last night, Nastasia the Hammer Lopez. How you doing? I'm good.
Yeah. Uh all right. And today's and uh today's special guest, first time on the show, is uh sorry, Endolyn, the uh well let me see. What how do you like to describe yourself? You like first came to my attention because you wrote the quotes for the uh legacy quilt for the Museum of Foods uh exhibition.
Uh but you also uh wrote a book called Rise with uh Marcus Samuelson and Black Power Kitchen with uh the ghetto gastro crew and you have uh another book coming up. You're you're all over the all over the place doing everything all the time. I like to call myself a storyteller, but oftentimes that just probes more questions. So I, you know, writer still works, but I think also cultural strategist has been a term that I kind of made up. Right.
Uh that encompasses a lot of the work I do that isn't always public facing, but is public impacting. In my life, storyteller is a liar. I'm kidding, I'm just yeah, but I mean I tell the stories. That there is some some truth to that, even you know, on the spectrum of storyteller to Grio, you know, but also someone who can pull together threads from different places and and keep a common narrative going, you know. All right.
Well, this the beginning of the show is the portion where we kind of shoot the breeze over whatever happened in the past week or so, ever since the last time we spoke to each other, which for us would be almost infinity. I did see you at uh John's uh friends and family uh a while back. Did you have a good time? I love putting you on the spot. I love uh you know if fun this is also something we can talk about in regards to having criticality around food, but uh you can't pay me to like something, right?
So like I but I I love Jean's food and the the interpretation that he's bringing to um to the wine bar. I think uh my favorite are the the veal croquettes. Yeah, a little bit of a ballm, thank you. Yeah, that's it. That's great having you both over.
So I appreciate you coming in every time you're well. Uh all right, so uh what do you what do you I know Jack's got something just happened, fresh in, not food related, but go. Yeah, car broken into in my own driveway. Um it's it's like it's obviously not funny. It's uh it's just a weird feel I hate the feeling of just somebody going through things.
We need to we need the details. Smash window, not smash whe window, pop trunk, not pop trunk. Popped trunk. Trunk is popped, things uh are on the floor outside of the trunk, so like some of my camping stuff's been taken apart. I and at a quick glance, and I don't know, I've done a full inventory, right?
But here's the sort of funny thing. Uh I don't see anything major that's been taken, except I had a box in the trunk that was the Apple studio monitor box. No monitor in the box. That's gone. So did they just need a box?
Ran off with an empty. No, I think they didn't look in the box and they probably thought, oh wow, a brand new monitor, and ran off with it. But it doesn't weigh as much. I mean, unless they're completely stunned on the box doesn't weigh as much as a box with a monitor. People who steal things, no matter like what, they steal the things usually for a purpose.
Nobody steals things for no reason. I mean, kids do. Kids do that. But you know what I mean? But like adults typically steal things for a reason.
It seems weird that they would not know. I mean, the funny thing is that box was just taking up space in my trunk. It was kind of annoying. I I had meant to throw it out. You're gonna fix the trunk lock, or you're gonna use a screwdriver for the rest of your life.
No, I mean I'm wondering if it was uh me that left it unlocked because I can't imagine how else they would have gotten in. Yeah. Very confusing. But that's how my that happened about one minute before uh Joe called me for the show. Nice.
That's funny well, you know, uh it's weird. I wouldn't even know how to break into a modern car. You know what I mean? Like back back when I used to worry about that stuff, you could literally just break into a car with like you know, a screwdriver, a piece of metal, you know what I mean? Pop the lock out of the trunk.
Yeah, totally. Any night, so I just stopped replacing the locks because I had out of state, I was stupid enough to move into the city in the early 90s with out of state plates, without doing the street parking. And every single night, trunk lock pop. I'm like, nope, dumb done. I just left it open.
I'm like, hey, look at look at take take it. You know, hell, I'll put my garbage in there. Take it. You know what I mean? Take it, it.
It's yours. Uh and anyway, sorry about that. Hopefully they didn't damage this the car too much. That's the same. When someone breaks the window, that's stuff, but then now you're now you're a cardboard and duct tape man.
You don't want to be cardboard and duct tape man. You know what I mean? No one does. No, no. No one does.
I've been there too. Uh you don't want to be that. Very quick, another quick announcement, Dave, that I want to make. Um just for our listeners, our our Patreon listeners. Um the Discord has been reset up.
There's there's now a what does that mean? Is there a problem? Did we did we get to the there was a backdoor? Nope, nope. There was a backdoor way in which non-patreon subscribers could be on the Discord.
So we'll tighten that up. And uh so now, you know, instructions have been posted on Patreon. And um if you cannot get access to the Discord, feel free to message us. And uh there is a channel on the Discord that you can sort of post uh for troubleshooting and how to get the connection working. But just in case anybody missed that memo, um be sure to reconnect to your Discord access through Patreon.
Nice. You know what? You sound sad like your car was broken into you and you feel violated. I'm sorry for that. You do sound a little bit sad.
You don't sound your usual Jackie molecule self, you know what I mean? It's a bummer, man. Yeah. I hate it. Yeah, it's uh Stas.
Do you have any stories from you were away for you know better part of a week in another country? Do you have any food stories to share with us, or did you eat nothing but Pablum the entire time you were gone? Uh I can't share any of the food stories. But I went to Night on Earth last night and the cocktails were still good. Nice.
Like the food is secret? What what'd you eat? Human? Is this like when Jack went to like is this when Jack went to uh Japan, came back and ate whale and we never let him forget it? No, no.
All right. Okay. What about you, Osai? You got anything over the past week or so food-wise? The past week.
Can be two weeks, can be infinity. Recent. Oh man. You know, I have trouble thinking about yesterday. I mean, just yesterday I went to a kind of a cool event that was featuring Wagyu.
Oh yeah? Like in what way featuring? So this brand out of Australia called West Home. I'd just been introduced to it. And uh yeah, they had this event where they had uh the chefs from Kasama, from Servos and Eelbar, and um saga uh cooking with this meat.
So was it stand-up or was it like real property? It was all standing. Was it was still good, even though it's standing. You know, standing is never the same. I never look I never judge someone based on what they can cook stay.
I mean, we all cook standing up, you know what I mean, though, serving in that way. But for these chefs, you know, I mean, that was the real draw for me. I was like, say less. And I was in there. How's the meat?
It was delicious. I mean, if you're gonna be eating meat, you know, I love, yeah, it was it was amazing. I have no, I have no notes. That was that was just last night. Nice.
Um, I also had some beautiful tamales from um a small kind of uh I don't know if it's permanent, but it's up in Bushwick and these various vendors come and they they've got tacos, they've got pesquite, they've got all all kinds of stuff. Atole and tamales. And the first time I went, they were they'd sold out of tamales. So I was very sad. This time I was early enough.
And what's your feeling? And you know, Nastasia can weigh in here. She has very strong feelings. But what is your feeling on the masa to feeling ratio in a tomato? Or are you agnostic and it depends on the person making it?
I think it yeah, I think it's very practitioner-based. You know, I feel like I'm not in charge of dictating people's tamales. So uh, but these were I mean, these were hefty, as I think most tamales should be. Um there was one that was mole chicken, there was like uh a verde, and then there was one that had no palace, and it was just I was just so happy to be having tamales. The last three times I've cooked no palas, I haven't been happy.
I've cooked for years, always been happy. And in the last three times, I've like lost the touch. It happened with mustard seeds too. I used to pressure cook mustard seeds all the time, and then I lost a touch. I gotta get the touch back.
I don't know what it is. I just I get very moved when I see tamales because even down to just tying the corn husk around, you know, the the preparation to me is just such an act of waiver and intentionality, like someone did this for me. So so so the so no one's left hanging, if in case they haven't heard her talk say as many times. Stas, what's your ideal, what's your ideal tamale? A lot of filling, like not much masa.
Like I want it to be like the the masa is like or the yeah, the masa is almost like transparent where you can see all the shit you're gonna get inside of it. So yeah. That's Nastasia has a very good yeah. I mean, she's always been this way. This is not like uh Nastasia come lately opinion.
Yeah, you know what I mean. Thes tamales were not that, but I do I do understand that tamales. Yeah. Nobody's are. Nobody's are because they're cheap with the meat, and everyone's used to a lot of masa, and everyone accepts it, and they're like, oh wow, these are good, but no, they're not.
Stas, give me, give me, give me some cheapest meat. Give me some cheapest meat. No, you do it. I cannot. We're making fun of uh our old our old partner who uh at a museum of food event got bent at a chef.
I've said this story many times. He got bent at a chef because he thought he ordered every lamb rack on the Eastern Seaboard. When in fact, the chef had ordered a reasonable amount of lamb racks for the number of people who were coming to the event. Okay. And he got mad because he's like, he wants these fantastic lamb, but he always buys the cheapest meat, the cheapest meat for his restaurant.
And that's what so whenever Anastasius says that they're being cheap with the mate, in my head, I got the cheapest meat going on in my head. You know what I mean? Stas, was that accurate or inaccurate? Oh yeah. Yeah.
Very accurate. That's a deep cut joke for you. Well, but it's like it's like a well, here's something about restaurants. The rat restaurants. You can meet everyone weigh in on this.
This is something that I've meant to talk about for the past infinity on this show, and we never get around to it. When you go, with very few exceptions of restaurants, when you go into a restaurant, like the guest side of the restaurant, I'm talking fine dining, even not fine dining. The guest side of the restaurant's about kind of hospitality, right? Trying to make you feel good when you come in. And you really see how we feel about people when you go to the back of house.
Oh, how we treat ourselves. For sure. It's like we put up with stuff no human should put up with in the back of house. You know what I mean? It's the it's revolting.
No, I mean, especially when you think about the care and investment that comes into these spaces and just the awe that can um overwhelm you sometimes walking into these rooms, and you know, the downstairs or the back is literally like your your seventh grade locker room was was better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Squalor. Like intense heat. By the way, for no reason, right?
Terrible, terrible air circulation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Terrible lighting. Yeah. Just terrible lighting.
Low ceilings. Low ceilings. Like it's awful. It's like a cave. It's the worst.
This is why there is nothing. I was not true. I'm sure there are many, many things. You know, many, many things. But in my work experience, there's nothing worse than the standard restaurant office.
It is the saddest place on earth. And even like stepping into one, I can get no work done. It looks to me, they they look like uh um what a control tower in a prison looks like. Yeah. Like literally.
It's like sometimes with the screens and everything. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like kill that person in the back. It's a weird mentality.
It's uh yeah, it puts so little effort. But I think that dictates, I think that reflects a lot of issues that are persistent in hospitality. Yeah, I mean, when Nastasi and I worked at the French Culinary Institute, we literally worked in a trash closet, like quite literally in a trash closet. And that was still somehow I think better because I could open the door and there was light. I could open the door and see a room in which sun hit the room.
Whereas most restaurant offices, you have to open like three doors and go down a hallway to see like even like the tiniest shaft of any sort of like light. It's the craziest thing in the world. It is. You know what I mean? It is.
And it's like makes me sad. And you and the other thing is like, especially like on the prep side, it's usually, you know, because they're they're not even off enough. We we need to use every square inch of a restaurant. Duh. Right.
Yeah, because they charge so much, right? So if the if there is a basement, guess what? It's getting used. And even though we're not allowed to do prep down there, John, what's gonna happen? Prep.
Yeah. And so, like, some poor sorry sad sack has to be down in that basement for hours and hours. I know their whole day. Five days away. Oh, man.
It takes a special dedication to make beautiful things in a hole. You know? It really does. Yeah. But like every once in a while, like we know when you're out of it for a while, and then you go back in and you're gonna be like, oh, I forgot.
You know what I mean? Yeah. Uh it literally coming up for air has a new meaning. Yeah, yeah, it's nasty. Anyway, I just thought I'd brand up that.
I'm sure it's gonna ring. We got a lot. We have a lot of people who you know work in the in the business listen. So, you know, I don't mean to offend any of you with your back of houses. I'm sure your back of house, whoever you are, is great.
I have been to places where the back of house is great. I've been to places where it's so nice, it's also kind of oppressive in a way. Because it's like a control situation. You know what I mean? But I can see I prefer that.
Yeah. Like like nice light. I literally can't work in the dark anymore. I like for the past 10 years, I can't wait. Yeah, we're in the baseball, literally.
Well, here, no, but I mean like I can't physically see. I need like lights with me at all times and stuff like that. Any any hoo-huh. Uh I got some food stuff. You want to hear some food stuff?
Lay it on a few. Okay, first of all, uh uh sorry, what are your feelings on popcorn? Are you like most people and that you enjoy popcorn? I love popcorn. I make my own popcorn.
Oh, nice. Stas, what about you? Popcorn or not popcorn? I never asked you this question. Yeah, I like popcorn.
All right. So I have a whirly pop. I've had a whirly pop for a long time. I originally bought a whirly pop for a coffee, strangely. But I now have I then I had to buy a one for popcorn because my kids want a popcorn.
Some worthy pop. Get this. I'm not gonna call out my sister Miley, Carpenter, who you know, now runs all of her's like food and lifestyle magazines, but like started the food network magazine and is a James Beard award-winning author. I'm not gonna call Miley out. But Miley, when she makes popcorn, puts it into like, you know, like a like a like an all-clad like a like a stock pot, right?
Yeah. No stirring, no shaking. Just turns it on, gives it one shack at a shack at a shackada, and then leaves it and it pops up to the top and pops the lid off. And she's like, I told you I didn't need to shake it. I'm like, Miley, I can't go there with you.
I can't go there with you. I need to agitate that I can't go there with you. You know what I mean? I'm a Dutch oven person. Oh, shake shake.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I think I just like the ritual. It makes me feel like I'm doing something. Right.
Well, also with a Dutch oven, especially are you gas or your gas, right? Gas or yeah, yeah. So like uh, you know, they're until they're hot, they're relatively uneven. You need to shake that thing because it's cast iron. But I do I do try to let it, but this is the thing, like this is the discipline because a lot of times when you want popcorn, you want it right then.
You don't want to wait 20, 30 minutes for popcorn. So but I do try to pre-anticipate my popcorn cravings by heating the Dutch oven so it's fully you know, it's fully evenly heated before I add the oil. Ah, go ahead. Well, wait, but again, like you know, popcorn is a right now situation. However, I will say this New York City, we don't have the best weather really for anything, really.
But uh in the wintertime, it's dry, which is why my entire my entire skin is one big scratch mark at this point because it's dry as well. We're all like borderline some of the things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause it's just like, because you know, at night you're not paying attention, you're like a scratch my my ankle until it's like we have blood of like, oh but my blood ain't got oil. Too much information.
I I don't use my wife gets on me constantly. I've don't use any lotions of any kind, and it shows. Anyway, uh point being uh that one benefit, I'll give this one benefit to the incredibly dry weather, is that you can pop popcorn and the next morning it's still good. Oh yeah, I stand by that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know what I mean? Yes. Anyway, so back to where I was. So I was in Lake Placid like a week and a half ago, and they have like some sort of, I don't know what the hell it's called, popcorn RS or whatever. It's popcorn store, right?
So they sell, you know, popcorn, mainly caramel styles butter, but then they also sell popcorn that you can pop at home. And I bought something that I actually think is fun. Most things I don't think are fun, right? But uh, and I'm not pushing them because I don't know them at all, but uh it was the uh where I wrote it down somewhere. Oh yeah.
It's the have you heard of these people? Amish, Amish country popcorn. You heard of these? No, but I'm I'm already uh excited. Yeah, so here's what you're good.
Well, here's what they sell, which is I think interesting. They sell a like so whirly pop is four ounces, right? Popcorn. That's what you're supposed to put in four ounces, roughly, uh, which is 120, 120 grams-ish, right? So they sell like a uh a sampler pack of ten different kinds.
And I'm like, I'm in. I've only popped half of them, but like right now, the winner, uh, because my sis my other sister-in-law, uh Ridge, she loves tiny things. I mean, everyone loves tiny things, right? Everyone likes tiny things a little bit, right? No?
They have this tiny popcorn called, I'm gonna get this right, Lady Finger Holless Popcorn that is tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny. Like they're tiny kernels? It's like it's like you took popcorn and miniaturized it. They also, in this sampler pack, which is reasonably priced, in the sampler pack, they give you a sample of like mushroom, you like mushroom popcorn. Yeah, like there's mushroom popcorn, which are the balls, which are good for caramel popcorn.
Okay. I forget what the standard one that we have is called. And then they have a bunch of different hulless kinds, a bunch of different kinds with different color on the outside, which of course you don't get in the kernel, but they say the flavors are different. So I'm I'm grooving, kind of going through all like every, you know, other night, I'm popping a different popcorn and it's kind of fun. But I pop with, I don't pop with regular oil on public butter, I pop with the butter flavored coconut oil, movie theater style.
Okay. Yeah. Interesting. And you use a little under half of the weight of the popcorn in that, in that I use uh what a golden barrel because it was the cheapest one. And uh so I put that in and I add everyone's favorite popcorn salt, flavor call.
Flavor call. Flavor call. And like most of our listeners don't need, you know, they know flavor call. It's the one that comes in a milk carton, but it's like it's like diacetyl, yellow, and and and salt, like fine salt. Yeah.
But you add flavor call to the popcorn when you're popping it. Don't add it afterwards. That is a nightmare. That is a situation where it that's gonna be too salty because it's so fine, it's gonna stick in some places and not in others. So you add the flavor call with it.
But did you know, John? Did you know that the and I can't read it because it's in some crazy ass colo crazy color rather, gold metal who makes flavor call. They make this stuff called glaze pop. Any of you ever heard of glaze pop? No.
No. Or popping glaze is the neutral one. Pop in glaze, get this. It is a mixture of sugar and lecithin that you can add directly to the popper before you pop it, and the popcorn comes out sugared and so it's like is it kettle adjacent? Yes.
Okay. And they make it with flavors, they make a caramel flavor, but they make the neutral one. I recommend going with the popping glaze, and you add the same amount as you add oil, so about half of it. They say not to add any salt, but of course I also add a little salt. Because please.
You know what I mean? I was trying to make kettle corn in my Dutch oven, which, you know. Did scorch a little bit? Uh it wasn't, it wasn't no, it wasn't too bad. But it just wasn't it wasn't that flavor.
You know, it wasn't close enough. Here's something I will say also. I think people don't like you know how when you dig everyone like for some reason, like everyone like thinks about rice, right? Who thinks about rice? They think about it.
They're like, ooh, you need to open it and you need to let some of the steam come off. You need to fluff it up and like let it do its thing for a minute. Yes. Let it settle. Popcorn the same way.
When it pops, you gotta let some of that steam out. If you don't let the steam out, it's gonna get, you know. So you're a wait till it's done to release the steam as opposed to allowing the steam to release while it's popping. Sometimes I'll do it, but then it jumps out of the jump jumps out at me. I don't want it to jump at it.
But only if you do like a little portion. A little bit? Just a little? I don't know. But in other words, it's something to think about.
It's something you need to think about is getting that steam off the popcorn so it's not soggy. You don't want that. Yeah. No one wants that. You want Chris.
Although there is a part of me who from childhood doesn't mind a little bit soggy if that sogginess is butter. But yeah, yes. Anyway. And the other the other thing I will say is is that while I was in Lake Placid, for some reason, did you grow up with TV dinners? No.
But you've heard of them? Wow, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. So like I usually would get them not at my house, but like at my grandparents' house, because like people my age, like um 50 change, right?
Like our grandparents' generation, at least like the people in our family, right? It's like grandparents, they had the his and hers recliners. And then next to the his and hers recliners, which by the way, there was one and then the other. They did not switch it, and you were not allowed to use that chair. And then right next to that was the four the the four pack in a thing of TV dinner trays that you could and they had like floral patterns on them, and then you could set those up next to the recliner, and that's where the TV dinner was served.
And this is a real thing. Joe, you you're you know, yeah, John. All right, so it's like the TV dinner of note, right? Was Swanson's hungry man. Okay.
And seamless. Yeah. And within Swanson's Hungry Man, the one that everyone remembers the name of, because there was a chicken, terrible, right? Like, but Salisbury steak. Yes.
Also terrible. Salisbury steak. Turns out Salisbury was a guy from New York, not from Salisbury, Connecticut, from New York. Died in like 1909. Was a crazy fad diet, weirdo doctor.
And I and so I was like, I'm gonna make stuff. I'm gonna make salisbry steak. So I made Salisbury steak, and but this guy was a nut. He believed that almost all the problems we have in life are caused because we eat too many vegetables. Oh, interesting.
Yeah. He's like, human beings are not designed to eat only vegetables. We are designed to eat one-third vegetables only. So he would do stuff like he hired a bunch of dudes, dudes, all dudes, all men. He hired a bunch of dudes in like 1858 to hang with him for a month and just eat beans and coffee.
Only beans and coffee. And he was like, they got messed up. And I'm like, yeah, because they're eating only beans and coffee. Then he hired another bunch of dudes to live with him. He paid them $30 a month in case you wonder what the going way uh, you know, wage in nine in 1850.
Probably experimentation to live with him, too. But I mean, they got free beans. Anyway, he also hired another group of people, all they had oatmeal and coffee with a little bit of butter in it. And he's like, guess what? They got messed up.
Yeah, like humans. It turns out like he didn't understand this whole variety thing. He's like, but when you like serve them only, and I will quote how exactly how he puts it because it isn't incredibly unappetizing. Eat the muscle pulp of lean beef made into cakes and broiled. That's a literal quote.
Muscle pulp of beef. Now, if you saw that on menu, John, what would happen? Leave. Yeah. Okay.
But this pulp should be as free from possible, uh, free as possible from connective tissue or glue tissue, fat, and cartilage. The he even gives a brand of beaten meat chopper. You should get it's the American chopper, FYI. Uh answered, this was written in 1918, this book. Uh answers very well for separating the connective tissue, thus being driven, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But here he gives an actual recipe. Previous to the chopping, blah, blah, blah. You know, he doesn't want fat because he's a freaking weirdo. You know what I mean? Uh, doesn't really want it to taste uh very good.
Uh he also wants you to use very old cows, which is interesting. So it was probably a flavorful meat. He wants your cows to be four to six years old. And by the way, cow better than lamb. Cow, then lamb, then chicken, turkey last, in the ones he checked.
Uh the uh pulp should not be pressed uh together too firmly or it will taste livery. I don't think that's true. Do you think that's true? I don't think that's true. I think I don't think anything that this person thinks.
Yeah. But, and here's what's interesting. He wants you to broil it, and then when cooked, put it on a hot plate and season it with butter, pepper, salt, and Worcestershire sauce. So today, to this day, so unlike graham crackers, which have all this sugar and everything in it, which you know, Sylvester Graham would have been like, no, right. Uh, he actually put Worcestershire sauce in it, and Worcestershire sauce is in Salisbury steak to this day, and is one of the things that makes it different from meatloaf.
He wouldn't necessarily although he even says I think that you can serve it with a gravy. Uh yeah, and you know, of course, I had to read it. There's also, of course, like a lot of uh a lot of good old fashioned otherism and racism in it. For instance, he uh he's like um during the colonial era colonial era era of uh of uh Britain and India, he's like, Yeah, the Indian soldiers are vegetarians, so they're just not as fast. So, you know, you have to give them a head start when they're walking out, like, yeah, I'm sure that's it.
I'm sure it's a vegetarianism, you know, Dr. Dr. Salisbury. I'm sure that that's what it is. It's not that you've never met one of these people in your life, you don't know what the hell's going on.
Does this person fit at all? Like uh I don't know. Like he hesitate to ask more questions. So he then did a study during uh the Civil War of uh human soldiers living on biscuits. So he I don't know whether he personally was healthy, but there were people who then picked up his crap and wrote, like, I was cured by a Salisbury diet, blah, blah, blah.
Especially in like England, it's really weird. You wanna hear one more weird thing about Salisbury? Why not? Okay, okay. So he literally he realized at a certain point that maybe, even in the 1860s at this point, he realized maybe I I shouldn't study people until they're messed up with like this one food diet.
So he bought himself a thousand pigs, and the entire back half of the book is how all the pigs get like, you know, and then he autopsies them. He's like, their guts are messed up when I fed them only, and then like pick your only thing that he fed them. Because he's like, you know, pigs are the close, he's right about this, I guess. He's like, pigs are very close to people in terms of how their bowels work. I'm like, okay.
All I can say is this has just all the makings of most of what is awful about uh, you know, American diet culture and so many other things. Yeah, well, I mean, one of my whole things, and like even with the museum, food and drink, like one of my whole things is that we think we're we think current people, we think we are smart. We are no smarter than anyone in the past. And the people in the future, unless they're augmented with artificial intelligence ships, aren't going to be smarter than we are now. So when you read someone in the past, you're like, everything they believed is crazy, right?
But I'm like, everything I believe, probably in 30 years, 40 years, 100 years, people are gonna think I'm crazy. We never look, we never look at ourselves with the same critical eye, we look at other people. So from the past. So I love reading things from the past that are patently absurd, but that have this veneer of, you know, we know the truth. We know the science.
I really disagree with you on that. Well, you think people are smarter? I think that wisdom from indigenous cultures has always stood the test of time. And most of what you're referencing is the result of ideology that comes from domination and capitalism. That's what I would say.
Well, I mean, I don't know. I think if you read Braiding Sweetgrass, that wisdom stands. If you read South. I started, I've not finished it, yeah. Because it's so deep and it's it's so multi-layered and it and it challenges so many core ideas that we are brought up believing are as true as air.
So I I think that you know, that guy's trying to make a a living. I think there's danger in assuming that any group of people is pure. Or good. I wouldn't say I didn't say those things. No, no, but I mean, or they have a wisdom that we don't have.
In other words, I'm sure they have, I'm sure every group of people has a wisdom that we lack. And I'm sure we have something that they lack. I don't think any of us is perfect. You know what I mean? But I'm not talking about perfection.
I'm talking about people who thrived in living in um in deep community and caretaking of the earth, stewards of land, not not titans of industry, right? Their goals are completely different. So when you go to Mexico City and you go to the Anthropological Museum, or if you go to uh, you know, um Pueblo in in New Mexico near Santa Fe, you know, you're you're going to have a completely different idea of technology and what community and social caretaking looks like compared to somebody who is literally just pulling things out of nowhere and then being supported and celebrated for that because he lived in a society that was designed to oppress people. That is the culture from which he's coming from. Talking about, you know, yeah, no, yeah, uh I yeah, no, I agree.
But I'm just saying that I think everybody plays to the society that they have. Always. Yeah. Throughout time. I I just think you're being a little too generous to some folks.
Oh, you mean, oh, I'm not saying there aren't people who are evil. I'm not necessarily saying that guy is evil. No, no, right. He's mistaken, clearly. Yeah, but you're saying that no matter what period of time you look at, those people were doing the best they could.
And I'm saying I think there are plenty of people that he could have spoken to, or plenty of cultures that could have been observed that had uh a very clear understanding that where he was going was the wrong direction. Like it didn't take a thousand pigs to figure that out. Right. But a lot of people could have told him that. But like what's interesting, and I don't think it's a function just of capitalism, because it happens in happen many times in pre-industrial societies.
I mean, even within it happens all the time that crazy ideas take root and spread like wildfire, and every generation, somebody is like, I'm gonna come up with the current idea. Everyone else has been wrong, but I'm gonna be right. Usually in pursuit of overpowering someone else. That to me is the common thread. I was trying to think, like, how many places on earth haven't been taken violently?
I very few. Iceland. Like the whole world is a history of violence, and it's a question of how you come to terms with the violence that you are currently benefiting from. Not right. I mean, it's like, you know what I mean?
Like, what places haven't been taken violently? It's it's hard. But not from a place of we can't do anything about it, from a place of interrogating what the driving core beliefs are that sustain that violence, right? Yeah. Well, especially if, especially if people are still benefiting or have detriment because of it, right?
If it's if it's totally in the past and everybody's dead, then it's like okay. You know what I mean? Like the Celts. I don't know anything about the Celts. I don't even know why I brought them up.
You know what I mean? But like can't speak to Celtic culture. Yeah. Yeah. Because they can't get hard taken over.
You know what I mean? They got hard, they got, or like, you know, anyway, whatever. Uh let's get to food. We started so existentially. Yeah.
Let's get to it. Let's go. Let's get it. Well, here's what I want to ask you uh before I I I forget and don't get into it, uh, because half the show is already gone and we've been talking about uh Dr. Salisbury and whether, you know, whatever.
Anyway, it wasn't on my bingo card, but here we are. Uh so what's it like writing books with other people? How like because I've had other people before who are on who uh have written books like both for themselves and for other people like Katie Parla or like you know Joshua David Stein. And it's always interesting to me, especially when you're working, you know, as you are with people with very big personalities, right? Um they're coming to you because of your point of view, but then you have to kind of drop back a little bit.
What's it, what's it like? How do you subsume yourself into what they're what they want to portray, and then how do you get yourself into the work as well? Yeah, that's a rich question. I um so first of all, I I entered the space as a writer in food culture because I had things I wanted to say. And so I've always prioritized and felt very clear that anything with my name on it is an absolute reflection of uh what I am interested in or questions that I'm asking.
Um I've done a few of these collabs. Um some stuff has my name on it, some stuff doesn't. Um there's been projects that I've been part of that kind of disappeared, went away. So it's always a miracle to me when you know it's like TV development when something actually airs, when something actually hits the shelf, it's like, you know, you you think of all the things that didn't get to that point, right? Especially TV.
Yeah, so there's a lot more experience and exploration that happens behind the scenes than what is reflected, you know, in terms of what's available to purchase today. Um, and I am someone who is always working on my own work as well as collaborating because I believe that one of the gifts I have is not just telling my own stories, but helping other people tell theirs. And that is an editorial lens that I bring to these projects. So, you know, my early conversations with collaborators, and every project is different, is that I try to, you know, be very clear that, you know, you're not hiring a ghostwriter. You're not hiring somebody who is not visible, who's not outspoken.
I have a public-facing uh presence. I'm I'm actively doing my own thing. So if you're wanting to, if you're calling me, right? I I'm not pitching you. You you came to my inbox, you called me up, you you inquired with me, that means that you want what I'm already doing.
So you should not have an expectation that I'm going to, you know, be like the wizard of oz behind a screen. You don't have to be Daniel Day Lewis on it, they're coming to you for a specific. You don't have to, you know, become some other person. No, no. So if you if you want to work with me, that's because you want to work with me.
It's not because you want me to become something else. Um, so that doesn't mean that I necessarily agree or that I'm a staunch advocate for everything that that individual or that group is doing, but it does mean that for the purposes of that project, we have enough alignment uh whereby we can have this cross exchange, right? Because they're someone who has a story to tell, they have ideas about how they want to get there, maybe. Um they have certainly a brand that they're looking to, you know, expand. And uh they're asking me to come in and help them do that as an expert in storytelling.
So uh my approach is to first just understand like, can we vibe, right? Can can we I've made the mistake of signing on to work with people where because I saw what the potential was, I was attracted to that, and then got into it and realized, oh, like this person has they have no ideas, they have no interest, they have nothing to say. Seriously, like just the page is blank. Like and you don't want to fill it all in if it's supposed to be a collaboration. Yeah.
I mean, I've gotten in trouble on projects in the past because I'm like, where's the concept? Like, where's the meat? And I've also sometimes given too much of myself, you know, based on what the actual deliverables were, because I wanted so badly to have these greater narratives spoken. I mean, we're talking about things that the, you know, the books I've worked on, I know from my personal conversations with readers and the feedback that I've gotten directly and indirectly, that these are life-changing projects. And they are adding to, you know, I feel like my responsibility as someone who makes books is to add to the conversation.
Some of these books are sitting on the same shelf as Zora Neil Hurston, as W.E.B. Du Bois, as a wide range of storytellers and historians and holders of culture, right? So I don't treat that space, it's a physical slot that you don't have to be. Someone else can be there. So if you're there, what are you saying?
I take that very seriously. So I do, you know, have sometimes had challenges and problems with, you know, bookmaking is a very long, arduous process. You have to tell me about it. You have to invest a lot before you see a return. And, you know, frustratingly, you know, with an effort to kind of get people under contract and get things moving and you know, just put stuff out there, there's sometimes this approach that, you know, people miss some of the detailed nuances of agreeing to this work.
You're going to have to add it to whatever it is you're already doing. And a lot of these folks are already very busy. So if you are coming to this idea thinking you're gonna outsource these things to me and I'm gonna do it by myself, you know, you've got another thing coming. And this is always sometimes, you know, a shocking conversation, depending on where we are in the project. So I approach it as, you know, you are, you know, you've got this idea, you've got this story, and now I have to do like three things.
I have to project manage it, I have to act as the editor before the editor, and I also have to act as the writer, which means that I'm also in some ways becoming an advocate for that person I'm collaborating with with the publisher. So I have to trust them, you have to feel for them and trust. You have to, if you're gonna advocate for them, you have to feel something for them. I have to feel something for what this what this project is trying to do. I also need their trust.
Um, and that is hard to establish if you have, say, already sold a book and you're already under deadline and now you gotta scramble to find a co-writer. Like you're trying to truncate a lot of emotional work in a very short period of time. Because then it's too late, you said you're gonna do it, you have to do it. Or they do. Like if they're bringing me on after the fact, I try not to do projects like that anymore where you know, we're gonna spend some time.
It's like dating, you know, like because what what used to happen is like you'd have a coffee, you'd have a meeting, and then it's like, let's get married. Yeah, sure, let's be in business together for the next three years. Like it's insane, you know. So, of course, a lot of these collaborations fall apart. So I feel like it is an honor to be someone who can help convey this story to the world.
I also take seriously acknowledging my credit and contribution um to these projects because they are absolutely reflective of my um my arsenal of skills. So uh going on that, because I think it's also kind of like from the writing side, but also especially we, you know, we get a lot of listeners who are culinary and beverage consultants, right? And I think it's not the same, it's not the same, but there's a similar situation where at the outset, there's a person with money, whether it's their own or a publisher's or whatever, but they have money and they're hiring you to do something, and there's this weird vacant period at the beginning where you're like, I don't really know if they understand what the deliverables are. I don't really know if they understand what I'm gonna put into this, and I don't have the ability to do a bad job and still look at myself in the mirror and go to sleep at night. This I feel a lot of people captured it.
Yeah. So, like, you know, uh, without obviously naming names, it's like it's gotta be hard to like it's really kind of like I don't think soul crushing is a weird way to put it, but you feel I feel like a literal pressure sometimes with trying to figure out whether you want to take on these projects. It sounds like you have the same sort of thing. Yeah, and it's taken years. I mean, one of the reasons, so now I'm like really good at it, but I had, you know, I had some very tough learnings, you know.
Really, it's hard to it's hard to gauge timing, it's hard to schedule, you know, you don't know how long it's gonna take for something to gel and come together, especially if you're dealing with folks who have very sporadic availability or they have come to the project because they're agents or their editors have kind of sold them this idea that the writer's gonna do everything, which happens a lot. Um, so you know, um it can it can be challenging to figure out like, well, these projects are in meeting stages, these projects are in negotiation stages, these projects are in proposal development, these projects are in actively under contract. Now this is going off to production, it's not my problem for a while. Okay, now the book the book's coming out. Now I have to market it.
Every time I'm marketing a book, someone I'm working with behind the scenes thinks I'm ignoring their project. Like it's a it's a crazy thing. And then, you know, you're not, you're not, you know, these payments are also, you know, getting into the nitty-gritty, but like these payments are assigned by what you deliver, not by how you work. So you know, shout out to the people who have full-time jobs, you know, like you get paid every week or two weeks, regardless of whether you turn something in. I get paid on delivery, but that only means that someone has to accept it and review it.
So I have a project right now that I turned in last summer. I don't know when I'm gonna get edits back. I don't know when that check is coming, right? Right. So it's an interesting hodgepodge because you can kind of wonder, you know, you can kind of just be wondering how how do I make this tapestry so that I can give projects the time that they deserve and know that they're gonna be ebbs and flows.
And this is in addition to, like you said, you know, I work as a consultant to organizations, to brands. I I've I'm working with institutions that are in arts and music and hospitality. So there are a lot of things that I'm doing on this on the strategy side, separate but related to my work as someone who's actually sitting in front of a pad of paper or a screen and putting copy together. So I I continue to feel that it is a privilege, but I have I have struggled with that pressure. Um, and I've sometimes failed.
And it's been, it's been really, really, I mean, I'm a I'm a growth edge person, so I'm always reframing or exploring, trying to unpack like being accountable for, you know, what what terms or what can I set up? What questions can I ask? What signals can I take from the first time so that I don't have to find myself in repetitive situations that are difficult to get out of or unpleasant. The one thing I would say is that you really have to be in it for the process. Neither will they let you, even if you want to.
You know, so like all these things that a lot of times people will say, the book is beautiful. Well, I had nothing to do with that, right? Like I mean, take it. No, I take it, but it's also like, you know, yes, and and also it's also an it's an expression of the work that was done, right? All those 60,000 words.
The other one thing I wanted to note is that the books that I'm that we're talking about, the books that I do in collaboration with chefs, at least so far, the ones that are out, are um they're narrative food culture books. They are also cookbooks, but they are very different than what preceded my work, which is that, you know, mostly there were, you know, you had maybe an introduction, you had some head, you had some head notes. This is the obviously the text that precedes the recipe. Usually those were very technique focused. Um, and then you had the actual, you know, here's how you make this thing.
What my book started to do was say, we're gonna tell a story and we're gonna allow the food to exist within the umbrella of the story. That means that you're not gonna just open up to a chapter on salads, you're not just gonna open up to a chapter on soups or desserts. These recipes are going to fit in the place where this narrative is taking you. And and this was a hard thing now for some editors to really conceptualize because they're like, you know, they want to treat these books as how, you know, they are, they are references. But it was important to me, especially in dealing with food of um the black American um conversation or the diaspora more broadly, and even other cultures of books that I've you know worked on or plan to work on.
Um, these things have often been extracted from and kind of kind of delivered piecemeal to the public over time. So we need to reframe things and give context to things and put things in a in an environment where you can understand the the culture from which this recipe emerges. That to me was more important than deciding if this was gonna be one or two or two teaspoons, right? So um well, thinking in the in the in the Black Power Kitchen, the Ghetto Gastro cookbook, it's all about beginning is like, what does this even mean? What are we talking about?
You know, what like the word ghetto coming, like the whole intro is like describing this, and then you go into as you say, it's like there's interviews, it's like a it's a it's a point of point of view, but I wonder what it's like for you to write something like that that is from a culinary standpoint, the point of view, and yeah, it goes, you know, all over the world in Harlem and whatever, but it's like it's the point of view of a particular culinary uh collective, culinary fashion, you know, yeah, music. But as opposed to like the you know book you did before that uh rise with Marcus Samuelson, where it's like so many people, it's about it's about just kind of like the depth and density of um people that you know he you both want to kind of celebrate and bring bring to the fore. Is that different? The experience of writing books like that? Yeah, um, in some ways, I mean, um, you know, m Marcus is a big visionary, he's a big vision person, and he he doesn't miss anything, but you know, he's one to sometimes like have this big vision and not really think too much about what is that gonna take to fulfill that, right?
Like, you go do that, right? And in some ways that felt freeing. Um, but in some ways it required me to take on a different level of leadership to that project. So when I first signed on, it was like, hey, you're just gonna write these chapter openers and you know, to do some essays, and it was kind of like a low lift. By the end of the project, it was very clear, like I had brought in a big kind of overhaul of the editorial lens and really worked closely with our editor um Mike Zervan, who's over at um Hichette.
Um, shout out to Mike, you know, about you know, re retooling this project so that it could be something that Marcus could could own in terms of his own experience and what he was an expert in, and to also allow for us to bring visibility to people. Every single person we talk about in this book, either in that book, either has or should have their own projects, right? And dozens of people. And yeah, and so like, especially the people who I wrote about, you know, there are lots of fake people he's calling out to um in in the head notes. But in terms of those those profiles, um, there's a lot of, you know, each one of those people I spent time with, I knew personally, or you know, you know, we I kind of I kind of curated that initial list.
So that that was a different style versus you know, with with GG, it was more about taking um this group of very distinct individuals who have been doing a lot of things in many different ways, and you know, were pretty well known in their sphere, but had not had a cohesive brand story that they could because they were consistently coming across people who like couldn't understand what they what they were doing or what they were up to. So I took on the task of trying to articulate what that means. And that meant you know, spent spending a lot of time with them, observing them in action, getting to know them as individuals, getting to understand them as a as a business entity. Um and you know, my contribution also is you know on these projects is usually people come in with a particular view, and then I say, okay, yes, and what about you know, trying to stretch, right? Trying to push people a little further in in furtherance of their vision.
So this is you know some of that editorial lens coming through. Like when you turn in something as a writer, you if you're working with an editor who is, I think worthy, you they should hopefully see what you're doing and then try to push you a bit further to get further at the truth. So I feel that that was a big contribution that I brought to that project, not just in terms of outlining it and um giving that they had the idea of Black Power Kitchen, but you know, you need a lot of meat to add to those bones. So you know, it's it's to me, I feel like I can, I'm a writer, I can write anything. When I started, I was very interested in uh if you look closely, like I'm really interested in systems.
Um I'm interested in cultural discourse. Food just happened to be one channel that kept giving like I kept getting more access, and then I started to see there was a lot of depth here that wasn't necessarily visible to me when I first started out as a writer. So I had written about like the military, I'd written, you know, I'd I'd had a lot of interest. And uh I I worked for. Did I grow did you grow up military?
Are you military military? No, no, no, but I had a dear friend that joined the Marines and it really shifted a lot of things at that time for me. So I was interested in kind of understanding that more. And as a writer, I feel like I'm always trying to write about things I'm trying to understand. Um, you know, I worked for IBM for seven years.
I was a marketing writer for them. You wouldn't, you wouldn't necessarily know that from my from my bio, right? So I think that sometimes it's like playing an instrument. Like there may be styles that you feel more um, you know, um like there may be more of a heartfelt connection, but if you can play, you can play. So I'm a writer, I can write anything.
And I and there will be projects coming, you know, in future years that I hope will, you know, further articulate that that um you know, we don't have to we don't have to stay siloed just because we've had success in certain areas. And that it's that cross genre skill that actually contributes to having such a clear voice. You know when you're reading a book that I contributed to, you know. Well, speaking of books, you contributed to, even though like I feel like I now I'm going into standard Plugville, but I want you to I want you before I forget to plug uh the new book that's coming out in less than a month. Yeah, uh Quail Creole, um with Nina Compton.
She is You know, I've never had her food. I've met her, I've never had her food. I I hope that that is something that you put on your to-do list this year. Um I met Nina, man, maybe eight years ago, seven years ago or so. Um she is, you know, obviously the award-winning New Orleans-based St.
Lucian chef of Compare Le Pen and by Water American Bistro. Um, I love her food. Um, I love her. We've become dear friends over the years, and this book is a narrative cookbook that is going to take the reader through her development as a as a chef, starting in the incredibly beautiful, rich culture and country of St. Lucia.
And we follow her through her time in Miami, excuse me, Jamaica first, and then Miami, and then finally New Orleans, where she's been for over a decade, which she was introduced to as a participant on Top Chef. And that's really when she kind of crystallized all these experiences that she'd had and funneled them into what became her first restaurant. So she's bedazzled with awards and always at uh festivals and special dinners and events and you know wonderful things. But you know, I think in her um in her story, you really get to see, so you know, something that I said after The Rise came out, because it was such, like you said, it was such a dense book, it was so far-reaching. Um, is and again, the culture needed that, in my opinion.
Also, like the publishing industry needed that. Uh, you kind of had to prove that these stories were viable and that they that they had a rightful place and not necessarily just by someone who was Uber famous, right? Um what I wanted to see was that you were now going to have more regional and uh more like you know, individually specific narratives emerge from this broad section. I'm kind of over throwing black on something as a way to dictate or project a particular point of view, right? I mean, I think it's an it's an important identity marker, but it can mean a lot of different things.
And um I'm a little bit you know fatigued of the trope of just throwing it in there to say that it means something. If you just look at book lists, you'll see like black this, black that. And it's like, okay, that's wonderful. We needed that, but also like where else can we go because there are so many cultural and regional and ethnic nuances here. So what you're really seeing is, you know, a lot of people have heard about St.
Lucia, but they couldn't find it. If you if you were to give them a map of the Caribbean, they wouldn't be able to point it out. They didn't know. I saw it on the map and they cover the book down there. Yeah.
And you wouldn't necessarily know unless you know you were from there, what makes something St. Lucian versus Jamaican, right? Um, one of the things that Nina talks about in this book is how for her, her first, her big city experience as a young cook was going to Montigo Bay. The island was big, the sounds were big, the traffic was crazy, like you know, the experience a lot of people have coming right here to where we are at Rock Center. That that was her experience in Montego Bay.
That was her big city adventure. And, you know, she's learning about things, uh, she's learning about ingredients and techniques that they're not doing where she's from in Gros Elay. So, you know, she calls to her mother and says, hey, stop giving the ackey away. We can cook it. Like, you know, like she's like, I'm learning all these things.
So I think there's uh something to be said for her articulating what her canon was, right? She did go to culinary school and she did study those things, but what you really see in this book are these moments that shaped her um understanding how diverse the Caribbean was, even as someone who is from there and connecting to the diaspora in the South United States that is also mirroring that that island culture and how that exchange has been happening for centuries. And so we do that in a really vibrant and beautiful uh way. Her sister Fiona Compton, who also goes by No York Caribbean on Instagram, did the illustrations for each chapter, and our friend uh Casimu Harris, who's a beautiful photographer in New Orleans. Um, he has some work coming to moment um soon.
You know, he did the lifestyle photography. It's like it's it's a beautiful, it's a truly beautiful book. Um I it was one of the easiest and most seamless projects I've worked on. Um, and I think it just came together very naturally, and and it will be a beautiful uh collection. And it's coming out March 1st, right?
April first. April first, it's already March 1st, isn't it? My mind is fried. But something you said, put a thing in my head, I have serious FOMO. Now, I don't ever go, I've the only Caribbean I've ever been to is Cartagena is not really Caribbean.
You know what I'm saying? But I've never been to like Caribbean conversation. Cartagena is so different from the rest of Colombia. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I know it's like uh I hate things that are nice.
Kind of tropical paradise is not my thing. Like I burn really easy, although I do like food a lot. But I don't think I'm ever gonna have fresh Aki in my life. I've only ever had it from a can. I've never had fresh Akira.
Yeah, I mean, like it's gotta be it's gotta be different when it's not in a can, right? Yeah. I think I mean any of these things, tamarind, sour sap, vanilla. How about a bay leaf? I mean, did you see that viral video where uh the subway takes where the the woman was like, bay leaves are useless, they don't taste like anything.
I heard about it because people ask me, are bay leaves useless? I'm like, no, you're useless. Well, when I said in my commented, I think like a thousand people have liked this comment. Literally, that you know, the industrialization of our food here in the United States has really convinced people that things just taste bad or don't have meaning because we are so indoctrinated with this idea that like this is how it is. It's not like this in other parts of the world.
So, you know, bay leaves are actually incredibly fragrant and they make a huge difference in anything that they're part of. And in the islands you I mean I think island living is tough living but you know I mean even if people look people love being tourists in those places and I just can't I don't know someday. Yeah we talk about that we talk about you know tourism too in this book as an expression of kind of an ongoing colonization project. You know, first it was bananas now you know you gotta stay in these you know fancy hotels that locals don't have access to but yeah yeah there's a lot of that in there. Do you have any good recent history books to read on like American style food colonialism down there?
Because I only read like the old classics on like you know on United Fruit and stuff like that. I don't know if there's any any any good recent scholarship because you know I love that kind of focused in the Caribbean Caribbean South America yeah. Hmm I have not I I can I don't have like a hist as history focused title right now but I would say that you know my friend Von Diaz has a book called Islas that is celebrating the cuisines of island cultures all over the world. And uh is that the one that uh Matt told us we should buy John I believe so yes. That she does a wonderful I mean Vaughn is a documentarian and you know she's she's done all kinds of um storytelling rooted in collecting people's stories and histories and while it is a recipe focused book it also is something that encompasses a bigger conversation of what these islands have been subjected to, particularly by large countries like ours that you know make choices that impact them every day.
And so uh there's a lot. There's a lot there, I think. Alright hold on one second. I'm gonna answer this question from Nick because it's been a couple of weeks real quickly, and then we'll do our we'll do our goodbyes. Nick wants the recipe for the tomato BS from Contra, the non-alcoholic drink.
I will give it to you. It is uh this isn't a random way, but eight milliliters or four milliliters of uh grapefruit oleo. That's grapefruit oleo sacrum that we jack uh we jack, I think the acid in it, but it's made with grapefruit and grapefruit peel. Uh saline solution, 22.5, which is three quarters of an ounce of polydextrose 5050 syrup. Get the one from Modernist Pantry, 37.5 mils of clarified tomato juice, a half a milliliter, so that's 10 drops of warmwood tincture, three grams and 200.
So you boil the water 200, 300, uh three grams of wormwood in that, let it steep until it's dry. We call that at the bar, Theo and I do. Uh 7.5 grams of marigold flour tincture, also 3200. Uh 15 mils of reduced cranberry cordial, which is my new magic ingredient. I'll give you that in a second, and 22.5 of rhubarb root tincture at uh three per 200.
And so the way you make the cranberry cordial is you take 960 grams, which is almost a 32-ounce jar of unsweetened cranberry juice, which is a great ingredient from the past, like 10 years. They didn't have that when I was growing up. Unsweetened cranberry juice. And then you boil that down until there's only 307 grams of that cranberry juice left, and then you add 197 uh grams of sugar. And when you do that, you have a magic cordial that has exactly as much lime uh acidity as lime juice, but it's all cranberry uh acid, and it's 50 bricks.
So you do that together, and boom, you get the magic cranberry cordial, and that's the magic ingredient in the tomato BS. Uh Osai, thanks so much for coming in. I hope that we got. I never feel like I get to everything I need to get to with guests. Hopefully you've got what hopefully you got what you wanted out of coming over here onto our channel.
I'm just trying to make this happen for a long time. I know. Also, um when my newsletter comes out. Yeah, so we didn't even talk about that. And uh Black Futures is your uh Instagram Black Futures, is that what it's called?
That's the title of a great book though. What's the what's the what's the on your uh what's what are those called? Those uh the the short the short pieces on your website. Oh you're talking about my series. Yes.
I have a four-part web series. Um it's it's uh Black Futures with Osai Endolyn. Yeah. Um yes. And we didn't get to talk about this because I wanted to talk about on the last one on number four, just for the next time you come back, about prof about the professionalization of hospitality and how we're not all we're not all the same.
Not all hospitality folk are the same folk. And so they think. Well, but there's there's the view from inside and the view from outside, and they're both different. Anyway, uh we'll talk about it, I guess, next time. That's too much to unpack in the zero seconds we have left.
Thank you. Anyway, thank you for coming on.
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