Hello and welcome to Cooking Issues. This is Dave Arnold, your host of Cooking Issues coming to you live from the Heart of Manhattan Rockefeller Center, New York City New Stand Studios. Joined as usual with John, how are you doing? Doing great, thanks. Great.
Got Joe Hazen rocking the panels behind me. What's up? Hey, hey, hey. Welcome to the show. Yeah, yeah.
Going uh in the upper left over there, we got Quinn on the island of Vancouver. How you doing? I'm good. Good, good. We got uh Jackie Molecules back uh from uh New Orleans, do we?
Yes, sir. I'm back. Nice, nice. And then uh joining hopefully a little late in the program, we will have Nastasia the Hammer Lopez, uh also from Los Angeles. But today's special guest in the studio is yeah, I don't think you've been here, but you were on the in the old podcast.
I think this is my first time. You weren't in the old podcast when when your taco book came out. Well, anyway, let's let them know who uh maybe I had Jordana on. Maybe. Anyway.
We can talk about tacos if you want to. We will, we will, we will. We have Alex Stupa, owner of the Empeon uh Empire here in New York City, which is uh three restaurants. Uh author, James Beard uh nominated author of the book Tacos, which is by the way, 10 years old now. So we'll you know we'll talk about that because I know there'll something about you know, a little over 10 year old books.
Uh and uh former uh former, but once again on TikTok, acclaims pastry chefs. Um uh how is this substack new? I was reading through your substack today. It's pretty new. New age.
I think I'm like four or five post deep. Yeah, the sweet release, which is death. Right? It could be that. It could be because I'm writing about dessert every now and then, or it could just be like, hey, sweet, I just released a new lot of different things.
Oh, yeah. I was uh I was at um I was at a concert actually. It was uh Deltron 3030s, uh like you know, read comeback tour, and I was I was backstage. Wow. Yeah, yeah.
And and uh someone who is, you know, uh with Dell, I was talking to him, but it's like I was like, Yeah, they're like, you know, yeah, it's all okay, and until it's not. He's like, What do you mean till it's not? You're talking about the sweet, sweet release of death? And and I was like, Okay. Okay.
And then it's okay again. Everything's fine. It is or it isn't, right? Uh all right. So uh this is the portion did I miss anything by the way?
No, I think that's everything I'm doing right now. Yeah. Uh we'll we'll we'll get it we'll get into it later. But this is the portion of the of the show where we talk about anything preferably semi-culinary related that uh, you know, is happened in the past week, or for you since you haven't been on the show past whenever, anything kind of current that's interesting. And for those who are listening live, you can call in your questions to 917-410-1507.
That's 917-410-1507. And John, why don't you tell them how to do that and why they might want to? Go to Patreon.com slash cooking issues. You can see a couple different membership levels that we got there. Each membership has a bunch of different perks.
Uh some of them you get access to the live video feed. You get uh questions prioritized during the show. You get access to awesome discounts from Kitchen Arts and Letters and others great partners that we work with. Um so yeah, check it out. Patreon.com slash cooking issues.
And you never know because you won't know unless you join. Alex might say something crazy that we have to like get rid of later, like might threaten someone. Who knows? Probably will happen. And you can only get that if you're uh on the on the Patreon.
All right, so what what what do we have? Well, let's go do Jack first because he just came back from New Orleans. Anything interesting food-wise? Yeah, I mean, it was a 12-day bender. I ate and drank way too much.
But uh I don't know, maybe we print this for next week or or not. But I had I did have a question for you on this, Dave. I had so much freaking gumbo. Um where do you stand on thickness? Because I feel like anytime I follow an authentic recipe at home, authentic in quotes, right?
Like just as good a recipe as I can find. Um the authenticity for those recipes is in your hands anyway, not in the papers. Exactly. No, exactly. You're still silly silly words use.
But it's always way too thick when I make it. Um and then everything I have in New Orleans, I'm like, this is never like I never get it like that at home. Um, where do you stand on thickness and gumbo? Uh you know, man, like I don't feel like I'm ex expert enough to tell, except for I will tell you this. Here's what you do.
Hold back some stuff, hold back, then thicken, then you can adjust later. No, I mean, yeah. No, I mean always hold back. Or if you've overflavored it, don't be afraid to thin it with something that doesn't have flavor. What's your favorite liquid that doesn't have flavor?
Water. But you know what I mean? It depends on how much uh stuff you put in. What do you think, Alex? Well, I I think gumbo, it's typically thickened with filet powder, right?
So I think philae or okra or both. Right. So I think the viscosity, I I don't have a reference point for it. Right. But I would imagine the the viscosity is a pretty important factor.
Yeah, I mean, the thing about both of those, by like both, but it's also got a flower roux as well, right? Isn't there a rhubase too? So it's got really three thickeners. It's got flour, feet well, a possible of three, almost always flour, as far as I can remember. And then either philae or okra or both.
But the problem is the thickness that comes from things like okra and even to a lesser extent philae. If you've ever chewed on a sassafras leaf, it's like a little bit slimy. Yeah, yeah, right. So and okra, even more so. So I think if you're over thick from a flour perspective, then you gotta dial back your the flour and your roux.
And if you're it's too snotty, then you gotta dial back either your okra or your or your philae. You know, that's that's my feeling. I do you like snotty okra? Not really. No?
What about you, Alex? You like snotty okra? I'll eat anything. Do you like snotty? Do you like snotty nopolis?
I tend to rub them in salt to get a lot of that out. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Um, then you just have sort of that chewy bite aloe vera texture sort of thing. Which I enjoy a lot.
People don't like like I I have a very hard time serving those in a cosmopolitan restaurant. Really? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. It it I think it's a tricky texture for people.
Really? Even if you've even if you've done the salt rub and like put like par cooked it before you slice it, if you fry it, you're fine. If you fry anything, you're fine. Fried okra, fried okra is a maze fried okra. Like, like the way God wants you to make okra is to leave it whole, make sure it's not woody, and then deep fry that somewhere with a crispy coating on the outside.
The mayonnaise-based sauce. Oh, yeah. That's it. Like you've just won. That's it.
You're winning. You know what I mean? Uh I don't mind a little bit of snot. I don't want like mega snot. Right.
That's like if you hack up okra real fine, it just goes snot out on you. It's not, it's not me. I'm not saying it's not you, it's not me. But I don't mind a little bit 'cause you know what the thing is that the uh what's it called? The nopolis have it's a little bit of acid that helps.
They do. You know what I mean? Right. When you blanch them, they lose their color immediately, like sorrel for the same reason. Yeah.
Do you do you have a a technique for scraping the the bullcraps off of them, those little spikies? Yeah, you don't care that much about. So you don't have a magic trick. I always do you cut off the outside rim before or after you scrape it? I scrape then cut the rim.
Yeah, me too. Although then I always like sometimes get hit. Oh, that's not so bad. Getting hit with those things is not that bad unless it gets worked into your skin. It's kind of a pain.
You know what's really good to do with Nepal is juice it. It makes a really yummy green juice. How but okay, so I have a question for you. Sure. So we used to do a drink back at Booker and Dax, so like, you know, 12 years ago or something, right?
That was uh, you know, it was nopolis, like blended with you know, pectanex, the enzyme, into a liquor and it didn't go snotty. And then I tried to recreate it, a similar thing when we opened up uh Contra, and I couldn't get it to work anymore. I couldn't get it to taste good anymore. Do you have recipes like this that like 12 years ago you're like, oh, I we got this, it's dialed in, it's good, and then you try to do it again later and it's like it sucks. Same with pressure cooked mustard seeds.
I can't get it to work anymore. They don't taste good to me anymore. Is it my mouth that's changed? Or is it that I do experience that sometimes I feel like it's the latter thing you said. We we've changed.
You ever like something you thought that was really good? I've done like desserts like just re like being nostalgic and remaking these like modernist desserts that I've made, and I know people enjoyed them back then, but I make it now, I don't like it as much. Huh. So you but you think it's you. Or the zeitgeist, it's something.
Like it's like we've we've moved in a different direction. It's that type of thing. We do have a question on that for later. All right. So uh what else what else you got, Gumble Boy.
Oh, too much. Let's move the show along. This this is one of the Discord uh chief complaints that I I agree with. Sometimes you know. Okay, man.
Hey man. For me. Hey, okay, dude. All right. Anyone else?
John, you got anything? I went to Grano Arso, friend of the show, Joel Gargano. It's a great restaurant. It's always been. Yeah, if you're in that part of Connecticut, definitely worth checking out.
Chester, Connecticut, yeah. Yeah, I love Chester. Yeah, great. Chester, the motto they tried to get so Chester is a small town right along the Connecticut River, right? In between uh Middletown, Connecticut, which you've never heard of if you haven't been to Connecticut, and uh Old Sabre, which you've also, unless you know who Catherine Hepburn is, you never heard of that place either.
But that's where it is. And their motto is Chester, it's a walking town. And you're like, well, but you can't walk to it, and there's only like so much you can do in Chester. I love Chester, by the way. I'm a bootful.
But it's like a block long. There's a there's a uh there's a restaurant there called Simons that makes like a standard y kind of like baguette, not a baguette, but like a standard, like kind of soft, long white bread roll thing. They put this giant salt on the outside of it, and somehow they've added some form of crack or some form of drug to this bread because I can't, whenever I buy it, I can't stop eating. I don't know what the hell's wrong with me. Good to know.
We'll have to check it out. It's not like it's not like I go and I'm like, oh, I'm bowing down at like you know, it's not like when you go to Dominique Ansel's and you're like, okay, you know, oh, you can you can laminate jello. You know what I mean? Like the guy can laminate anything. I'm like, your lamination skills are like, you know, top rank.
You know, but even but it's like, yeah, I don't know what it is. I don't know why I like it. Anyway. Uh Alex, you got anything for this week? Uh I'm the culinary director of a seafood restaurant in a hotel in Soho.
And this is something I cooked, but I can't believe I did it. I made Manhattan clam chowder for the first time. Which is like the red one or the the red one. The red one. The red one, which is evil.
I'm from yeah, I'm from New England. White land, which by the way, that's the only real clam chowder is. In my opinion. Well, in everyone's opinion. Let me ask you this.
Manhattan more real than Rhode Island, which isn't real at all, right? Well, there's some argument. So Rhode Island is for people who don't know, it's New England clam chowder without butter or cream. Right. It's just aka you've messed up.
You've made a mistake. Some people would argue that that one is more traditional because dairy back in the oldie timey days was expensive and rare, and maybe they weren't using it that way. Who cares? I mean, I've been alive for 54 years. But um, but I made yeah, I made the devil's chowder.
Yeah. Um how was it? It was good. It's it's a different thing. It's like olive oil and panchetta and it's got carrots in it and so now we're shifting into a different realm here.
So basically it's like uh it's like a uh a one note, is it for you? Is it like a one note Chopino or like a one note bouillo base or like where where are you but like it not you know, that that's a good way to think about it. Yeah. It's it's a tomato soup fortified with clam. Like it's like yeah, so I'll I'll hate it less if that's the right.
What's the what do you use as the uh as the stock base for it? It does it's just it's just tomato puree white wine and the clam liquor. The clam, yeah. I and again, I thicken with Xanthan gum. Of course.
And I another dirty trick I do is that like if you want I I put gelatin leaves in all my soups. Yeah, for the Yeah. I want the body. So if I don't feel like making a stock, I throw gelatin in it. Yeah.
So uh what is your feeling? So are we this is a fan fancy, so like what kind of clam are you using? They're they're just cherry stones. Yeah. Yeah.
We freeze them. That's a that's a technique that I've learned recently that I love rather than cooking them to open them, freeze them to open them, and then you get a very consistent amount of broth and clam, and you can add it at the very last second. They don't get chewy. Oh, nice. And but so uh so cherry stones, cherry stones, little necks, so like uh so you're not a fan of like the real tough clam hacked up like a cahog.
The cohogs, no. You like there's only one thing to do with it. Stuffies? What about 'em? I love them.
Yeah. You don't like stuffies? What's the other thing? Yeah, like cohort. Like boil it for an hour.
Right. Hack it up, hack it up and bread. It yeah, it's incidentally mixed into this bread mixture. You don't like that stuff? I love it.
Yeah, of course you do. But like I'm the only one in my family that loves those things. Like when those when the giant freaking like clam shells come out of the oven and there's butter and it's blah blah blah blah blah blah. I'm like, yes. Right.
You know? No, I do. It it you love those the same way I think it's the equivalent of like French escargot, where like the point of it is the just all the garlic butter. Yeah, which is true. Right.
You know, yeah, the texture of escargot is not there's nothing like actually amazing about the escargot. Well, same thing with a stuffy though, or clam cake. It's the texture of the stuffing or the dough. Yeah. Yeah.
Do you think that like if escargot were just slugs and didn't have the shell and all the stuff, that they would be a thing? It'd be a branding problem. Here's a pile of slugs swimming in butter. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's like squirrels versus rats.
It's like there's just a branding problem. I hear muskrats delicious. Probably. I hear it's real good. You know what I mean?
I mean, uh all of the rodents that I have eaten are good. You know what I mean? Whereas a lot of the other smaller mammals I've eaten, not as good. I mean, rabbit is a rodent, right? Yeah.
It's rodentia. Yeah. Yeah. Rabbits, good. Uh squirrel, good.
I thought I thought rabbits were closer to horses or something. I thought rabbits were a separate. I don't know. I don't know. I think they're rodentia.
Uh I don't know. Rabbits have uh little little little feedy things, not like hoovy things. You know what I mean? They're not a uh an ungulate. I'm thinking of guinea pigs.
Uh guinea pigs are not closer to rodents. That's what I'm thinking of. Also delicious. I think I had guinea pig in is it Peru or Ecuador? Yeah, they I think they both that's a normal, that's a common protein.
You know what another good rodent is? Cappy bearer. Not have that. It's good. I've only ever had it viciously overcooked, though.
Because it's like uh it's I think it's like a little bit of a tough meat, you know what I mean? Like physically tough meat. And I've only ever had it like uh open air grilled. So I've never I've never had someone I really wanted to work with it one of the times that I went down to um Colombia where they call it Chiguiro. I wanted to work with it, but for whatever reason, the the restaurateur who owned all of the restaurants that the festival was working in did not allow Cappy Bear meat in his restaurant.
It was like a some sort of, I don't know whether it was a phobia, I don't know if there's a real a religious thing. Is it stigmatized there or is it I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what it was because they it was like I asked, was rebuffed, asked twice more, was rebuffed twice more. I was like, can you just get some into the restaurant and then I'll cook it and I won't serve it to any guests.
I just want to cook with the Cappy Barra, and this is the only kitchen that I will have while I'm down here. You know what I mean? And they were like, no, he won't let it in the restaurant. Could be a classist. Maybe.
Maybe. It's like it's like turkey butts in Mexico. You can't get someone, it someone who like is like higher end, right? Or like, you know, like Mexico City. I had someone, I was like, listen, can we do at you know, my last bar, I was like, can we do uh tipavo, right?
And they're like, no, that's low-class food. And I'm like, you know what it is? It's delicious. Turkey butt, delicious. You know what I mean?
But it has stigma wherever turkey butt is popular, it's stigmatized as as uh you know, low low-class food. But it's just so good. Like a like, I like them just to eat them. I've made them at home. And again, I'm just one of those things, I'm the only one that likes it.
Like I'm doing the stuffies and the turkey butts, but like I love them. They're real good. Yeah. Yeah, it may it makes sense. Speaking of uh things that are real good, uh in your book you had correctly, correct me if I'm wrong, in your book that tacos.
If you need to look for it, it's called tacos, hard, hard title to find. But uh you have a cheeseburger taco recipe in that, but it's not the same as your current thing, which is more of an actual cheeseburger on a tortilla, correct? Right. So we we do serve the one that's in the book at Mpeo and Al Pastor in the East Village. Um, and that is a version that we discovered in Mexico.
Uh, which is amazing because it why we were blown away by it is that we're so used to Americans Americanizing Mexican cooking and other cuisines to their liking. And this was a rare example of seeing that inverted, seeing something American Mexicanized. Because when it was done, it didn't taste like an American cheeseburger. No, it doesn't look like it. It looks more akin to like what is now known as a chopped cheese.
Right. Yeah. Right. But we do so we decided to add a different one to a different restaurant, which is why we call it Cheeseburger Taco V2. Oh, V2, yeah.
Yeah. And that's a like flour tortilla folded over with an actual half a patty, lettuce, American cheese, special sauce. So that would trigger an American to say like that's a cheeseburger, just because it that combination of things. Yeah. So uh and so yeah, you do the big patty on a tortilla press.
Uh no, on a uh witch press cheese. Playuta pressure. Yeah, yeah. And then and then you you you you put it on the griddle, flat it out, cut it in half so that it's taco shaped. Right.
Stuff it into two flour tortillas. Yeah. Am cheese. Yes. Whose ham cheese do you use?
I think we use craft. Yeah? Yeah. I forget Wiley's uh, you know, our mutual connection, Wiley Dufrain, uh very particular about his American cheese. He is obsessed with American cheese.
Like it's super particular. I watched that man eat a lot of American cheese when I worked for him. He will pound, yeah, he will pound American cheese. And when he goes into your kitchen, if you have a less favored the messed up thing is I can never remember what his favorite brands are. Yes.
The white one. Anyways, so like you know, I don't know why he lets I don't know why he hasn't partnered with the other chefs who are like like uh making their their bespoke American cheeses, because like the man is legitimately loves American cheese. You know what I mean? He does. He calls it God's cheese.
Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I believe he I think he likes Velveeta, loves American cheese. What is your feeling on Velveeta Vert like do you like Velveeta? Yeah, I like it.
It it's almost like a functional ingredient. Like any queso just to smooth it out instead of if you don't have access to all the salts. Yeah, it's got all the gums in it. It's got you know hydrocolloids and it's got sodium citrate, and it is weirdly neutral enough that if you're uh I don't know, giving something a real cheese identity, you can work that in there and it's not gonna dominate. It'll just play nice with it.
Yeah, I'm a fan. So back to your uh V2 uh cheeseburger taco, flour tortilla. So you now you have half of a griddled, like you a taco-shaped wedge of cheeseburger. A semicircle of beef patty. There you go.
There you go. And like, you know, one slice of am cheese broken in half. Is that what it was? Yeah, one slice cut into two rectangles to span across it. Right.
Melts out when you flip flip it over, right? And then secret sauce, and by the way, you're like, I'm not gonna tell you what the secret sauce is, but is it is it is it McDon McDonald's adjacent? Is it like American cheeseburger special sauce adjacent? It is like we what we again like what we like to do to the point of that inspiration we had in Mexico is like we tell like to take the American recipe and then look at it as if it's wrong, and we're going to make it better with Mexican ingredients. So in that way you can start saying, like, well, I'm gonna take the pickles out and I'm gonna put these pickled jalapenos in, and I'm gonna stain it red with this chili powder and not smoke paprika.
Because it becomes a very easy thing exercise to start switching out and giving it a different flavor. And is it selling like uh like cheese like cheeseburgers? Yeah, they sell a ridiculous amount. I cannot convince. So Jeremiah's so I'm I am a I do the bar stuff at Bar Contra, which is downtown what formerly, you know, formerly restaurant contra.
And Jeremiah Stone, Chef, can't convince him to like I have to convince him somehow that he's invented the cheeseburger, and then we could have a cheeseburger. But people want a cheeseburger when they're drinking, don't they? They do. And I have a I have a couple like theories on how we're it seems like as a society we're getting more and more into basicness and this stuff. I think it's two I think it's twofold.
I think our generation is kind of just scathed. So we want a cheeseburger. I actually think when the younger generation, you look at these influencers and all them. I actually think they're just discovering cheeseburgers. Really?
Yeah, like like yeah, like there's different kinds and there's restaurant burgers and fast food burgers, Smash Burger. They're just learning about Negronies. Like they're just learning about these things. So I like how you're like cheeseburger, Negroni. No, like just things that like we take for granted.
So it's either you need comfort and you can no longer or it's like you're not ready for like to have that twice removed creatively, because we're still you know what I mean? It's all new people. Are you cheeseburger? Are you cheeseburger beer, cheeseburger, wine, cheeseburger, cocktail? Cheeseburger, cocktail.
Yeah. And what's what's your cheeseburger cocktail of note? Um I I'm a dumb drink. I like very simple cocktails because I like when I'm drinking, I'm drinking. I don't like to think.
I just mean I'm well, I like to work very hard to make simple tasting cocktails. It so it's either it's either gin and tonic or mezcal and grapefruit juice. Those are my two defaults. I'm eating anything. Anything.
Yeah. All right. Yeah. I'm still mostly a wine with dinner dude. Unless it really wants to have a beer.
But I usually have my cocktails before and after. I I realize that I am old and flusty in this in this, but whatever. Hey, Quinn, I realize I skipped you. Wait, what do you got for the week? Week in review.
Yeah, uh, not too much. I did uh uh make a little experimental recipe. So in my book, I've got a graham cracker, and I modified that further because the original recipe uses just regular whole wheat flour that hasn't been sifted, but I tried a version to actually use up a bunch of uh bran, as you know. I mean, you and I both uh mil flour and sift flour, so I'm sure you get a lot of bran sometimes uh built up. Yeah, I mix it, I mix it into granola because you can hide it really well in granola with all the oil and stuff.
Yeah, so this is a sort of modified crispy cookie graham cracker thing where the dry mix is 50% of the brand sort of byproduct. You know, you can't make it. Are they good? Compare it to a compare to a honey made. Would you prefer to eat it to a honey made?
That's what I'm asking. Would you prefer a honeymade? What's the brand of note? What do the kids ha eat these days for? It's honeymade, right?
Honeymade. Graham cracker, good device. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I I would I would probably prefer my other homemade graham cracker recipe to to this in theory, but yeah, it's good.
Would you prefer either of them to honeymade, or is this just your doing it to do it thing? I mean, I'm not crazy about honey made. That's why I made my own. Wow. What about do you do cinnamon sugar on top?
No. I like cinnamon sugar on that. I mean, I'll say one more thing before we before we go. Bran is Bran. It's a it's a product that you have to use, otherwise you're throwing it away, right?
Generally. And it'll, you know, light your colon on fire, which is why people want to eat a lot of it. You can't get it from milling your own, but wheat germ is so delicious. Like wheat germ in baked goods, like like wheat germ in pancakes. You buy the Kretschmer's brand, wheat germ, the red can.
I don't know what the blue can is for. I don't know what the blue can is. I buy the red can, uh red jar of Kretschmer's. That stuff's good. Wheat germ tastes good.
You like wheat germ? I do. Yeah. Goes off fast. Does.
That's why you gotta buy the unless you use it a lot, you gotta keep that sucker sealed by the small cans. Yeah. You know what I mean? Have you made s'mores with your graham crackers yet? Quim.
Me uh not not these new ones. No, we just baked those off uh yesterday. But yeah, my uh original recipe, yes, I made uh s'mores or s'more s'more-like object. S'more could be better. Oh, I have I have opinions about s'more.
All right, give me some s'more opinions. Give me some more pinions. I dislike, I mean it it goes into sandwiches. I hate it any time texturally the construct is something crunchy on the outside, leaving something soft to squeeze out the side. Into your into your palm of your hand.
We make um when it's like my backyard, it's fire pit season. You know, kids, we invented this. It's where we'll use a Kit Kat and we'll melt that with a marshmallow, wrap it in white bread. Huh. How is that?
It's amazing because it's soft on the outside, crunchy on the inside with the same melty gooey marshmallow and chocolate. It's like peeking duck. Think about it that way. Yeah. Text textural adaptation.
Do you think you could if you didn't want to have the other starch, do you think you could, without having too much of a moisture migration problem, sheet out marshmallow and then somehow seal the s'more inside of the marshmallow? But or would the marshmallow melt before you could get the chocolate gooey enough? Wait, and have that all encapsulated in graham cracker? Well, no, the graham cracker and the chocolate all the way on the inside. And then you're holding, but you know, you need a skin on the marshmallow, right?
You just need a skin. You need to use a there are pipeable marshmallow recipes that are designed to fill bonbons. And you need to use one of those. They don't set as quick, and they they're decide they're designed to self-level. What do you think?
Wafer paper? Wafer paper marshmallows so that you have something you can pick up even after you've gooed it? Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, that would work.
Yeah. Have you ever used, you know how you can buy, you know, uh, what are they, what are they called? What are those things called? The uh the the styrofoam crackers, the styrofoam sugar cookies. That they they come in bricks and they they look like styrofoam packing, but they're delicious.
And they come in like strawberry chocolate, vanilla, lower, low. I know which ones you're talking about. I don't know that. Like the wafer? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What are those things called? Anyway, do you know? I forget what culture it is, but I I found them at uh Ridgewood Pork Store. They sell, they sell the sheets of that stuff like this big. You could theoretically make you, you know, it's whip some fat and and sugar and flavor together.
You can make a giant wafer cookie. Those things, you like those things? I do. They're good. Yeah.
By the way, the icing's never good. So that to your point. Right. That might be worth it to do it. To do it just at least once.
Right. Like a large format wafer cookie. Sure. Yeah. And then like uh, I don't know that there's a lot.
I think they've figured out the texture of the cookie. You know what I mean? And I don't think you need to be like plywood where you're like moving the laminations back and forth. I think you can just stack it and crunch it. Just need a better icing.
Yeah. What's your feeling on high acid icings? I don't know that I've thought about high acid icings a lot. Wiley likes a high acid ice. Wiley likes a high acid anything for its sweets.
Like for like donuts, he does like a high acid donut glazes. He does like. Yeah, why not? Why not? No.
If it if it makes sense in the flavor profile. Yeah. Yeah. How do we get on this? I have no idea how we get on this.
Oh, s'mores and graham cracks. Right. Yeah. When you just are roasting marshmallows, are you a burn the hell out of it, light it on fire, or like let toast real check? No, total immolation.
Really? Total immolation. I love that. It's the metal in you. Yeah.
I want it black. Well, because the funny thing is that's like so opposite. I'll okay. I'll I'll go ahead and and uh I'll say this now. Do you still do any live cooking demos for people?
Like you used to at the FCI and back when uh, or maybe still do it at ice? I don't know. I don't yeah, I haven't gotten asked. Dummies, listen, anyone that can hear the sound of my voice, first of all, I think it's a thing of the past because of the way YouTube and and and TikTok and all these things have taken off. Um, but seeing a live chef demo, especially if you're learning or you're young, is fantastic.
And you can go up, and most of the chefs that we had come in and do demos at the French Culinary Institute were also very generous. They would talk to students, they would talk to people. People who taking the time to go to the demo, the chef would usually take the time to talk to them afterwards if they wanted to. Because they've already wasted their time coming and doing a demo for you. So they might as well talk to you as well.
And uh, you know, and also like people who work the demos, you can learn a lot from the chefs. I know I learned a lot from the chefs that did demos that I was assist uh excuse me, assisting them. Alex Stupak gives some good demo, a ridiculously good demo. I have seen hundreds of chefs give demos, and like we couldn't have more opposite style of demo in the sense that I never know what's gonna happen and like everything comes unglued and everything is messy. Stuck, so like I also I go like a mile a minute.
Stubak will come in and he can do like he's like, but all of that stuff is completely planned and to purpose and like perfect and like not messy. I haven't done one of those in a long time. Do they do people still are they still done? That's what I'm saying. It's like if they're not done, they should be because um I I yeah I I see like seminars from different culinary institutes uploaded occasionally on YouTube.
But seeing a demo live is different from having somebody point a camera and figure out what they want you to see. Yeah, you know what I mean? And like, and I've said this a million times. Um I I like listening to I like listening to chefs, but the the visual input I get is more important to me, to me. That's how I like I learned like watching the hands and like what they're doing, how they're manipulating things some for me is more important learning experience than what they're saying.
Half the time I think what chefs are saying is not even correct. But it's like doesn't matter because I can see them make it and you can taste it. When you're at a demo like a lot of chefs will taste out the stuff. So like you know that's what I always like. It's not just like some image on a screen you get to actually see and taste the food that they're making.
I think it's a real lost um thing. I just don't think people It's an interesting point because too it's like band some are good live and some aren't and that would be a great exposure of that. Yeah. I think even like the really big I remember you know going to like Identita and Madrid Fusion and all these back in the day and those were demos and I've been out of that circuit for so long but the way I understand it like mad symposium and these things it's everyone's kind of sitting around talking. Yeah that that's what it's become like it they've moved away from what you're what you're speaking about.
Which I don't even understand. I don't even understand. Now there look it it did get crazy so like and you know we're all guilty of this you do stuff crazy stuff for demo right and so like especially like the Madrid fusion model I think they started that where you know some people would come in and just do stuff that they did at the restaurant right but then some people would come in and just do like just crazy loony stuff. You know what I mean? Yeah, and El Boole would always steal the show.
So that was a a rare moment in time where there became all this pressure. So it became a different mode. You weren't even showing what you're doing right it was about how good is your demo. Like how do you win the demo game? Right.
But you were always like you always won demo in the sense that I was always impressed by like the live demo skills. Thanks. Yeah. So like you should do that again. People should.
The thing is, I think there's not necessarily an economic it doesn't make probably time or economic sense to do it anymore. It's not the same world as it once was. I I've been dumping information out on Instagram as of recently. If you care about like gaining followers, it happened by accident for me, but I was like, I tried to do a at least a video a week at Mpeon, and one morning I'm like hung over and I don't know what to do. So I just said like I'm just gonna show them a tweel recipe, like an actual useful ratio.
And I never got a response like that ever. So I don't know if it's because it was pastry focused or because I was actually giving you the data, but I've been kind of continuing on that thread because I was just like, well, I'll just write every technique that I feel is proprietary to me. And I'm just gonna because I'm not I'm not gonna write a book about it at this point. So I'm just gonna put it out there. So you say you just get it for you.
Just get get Chat GPT to write it for you, and then it's done. Done it. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Yeah, you know, it's just things have changed. So about that tweel recipe, I I watched that that video.
Yeah, very informative. So here's a here's some inside baseball. So uh I've I I ate I ate at Alinea when you were pastry there, but I didn't really know you until you came to WD50. And at that time at WD50, like uh, so we're talking about fluid gels. For any for anyone who's keeping notes here, we're talking about fluid gel.
So a fluid gel is fluid gel for those who you know don't know, don't care. You take something that would otherwise be a gel, right? And then you blend it, and then the little particles of the gel stay suspended and kind of touch like grab onto each other a little bit so you can get any any puree texture you want between liquid, totally liquid that suspends stuff a little bit, to hair gel, you know, and beyond. You know what I mean? So this is a fluid gel.
And the two main gelling agents, hydrocolloids that I, you know, know of for fluid gel uh are gel an, uh low acyl gel an, uh, which by the way, I get so pissed off. You know, like someone called me from the bar this morning, and they were like, this is sorry, it's methyl, more hydrocolic. They're like, is this the right methylcel? I'm like, no. Don't ever say, don't ever sell methyl cell without writing exactly which methyl cell it is, and don't ever spec a methyl cell without saying, or or gel an without saying exactly which one you mean, and always be clear.
Please. Yes. A container that says methyl cell on it would be like a container that says medicine on it. It's not enough information. Yes, yeah, I'm gonna steal that, but I'll credit you.
That's fine. Uh yeah. So, anyways, so uh the two main uh gelling agents of note for fluid gels are are are uh gel-in and and agar agar. Did I say that before? Anyway, uh and I always shaded to Agar because it was easier for everyone to get.
Now everyone can get everything. But back when I was doing a lot of demos for chefs and and and normal folk, I I would shade towards Agar because of that. But you guys were always a gel-an house. Were we? Yeah.
I don't know. I you guys lived gel. Because it's a better, it's technically better. You can use it in lower amounts than you use agar. I'm agar.
Sorry, uh, gel and you can use gel-an in lower amounts than agar. But your twil recipe is gel-in. It's WD50 days. Okay, but there's a reason for that. So agar is not a film former.
So you so you do so it won't drill out as much as a. No, if you if you were to make a thicken your your whatever, your your muse with agar and spread it and dry it, the next day there'll be all these little fissure cracks that look like the the floor of a desert. Huh. It doesn't form a film. You would the only way you could use in that application, you'd have to add pectin or some other film-forming agent.
Gel-in gum, you will make a fluid gel, but film forms of film. And if I can always do it with one gum, not two, I will. I never thought about it. I've never because I've never made that recipe, so I never I've never used gel-an for its its filminess. Yeah, you're forming a film.
So that that's why I'll exclusively use gel-in for twels. Huh. And so and so because of the film forming stuff, it also doesn't need to be bulked up a lot. Well, you don't need a lot of other bulking agents in it to like add as like fiber connections, like like a pure, you don't need to use a puree. You see, you could twelve anything.
You correct. You can do it with water. And you need sugar, and you need I like to add an invert sugar or glucose because I tend to manipulate it afterwards, and when it's warmed up, it it makes that easier to do. That's all. Yeah.
But that's why gelin. That's why gel is nice enough. And another thing, I was uh looking at your, I forget which one of the recipes it is. I never really thought of Xanthan as needing acid, but you were like, Xanthan prefers to have acid. I've always thought of Xanthan as being acid tolerant, but not necessarily that it needs it.
Well, it's like in in the um in the industrial food world where all this stuff comes from, Xanthan gum is more expensive. Xanthan and gel and microbiologically produced um hydrocolloids like through fermentation, are more expensive than seed gums. So the only time you would ever use them, a more expensive gum is because a cheaper gum wouldn't do it, which is why you always see xanthan gum in vinaigretes. It's the defloculant in vinaigrette. Because you can handle acid.
And sriracha hot sauce. Because it's the the because carrageenin or guargum can't handle the acid. That's why. Yeah, but you but you but you you well, you at least at least that's what I was getting off of. I forget which video it was.
But you're saying it actually like improves the it does, it likes it. And I learned that from Wiley. You know, he used to do this, you know, uh soy protein foam with and he would use xanthan gum to stabilize it. Uh, but it it needed it actually needed the acid. Yeah, what's interesting about that protein foam is that the only solids you really require, other than the stabilizer stuff is the proteins.
Enough, right? You use like use of what it was water, protein. Yeah, you whip water. Yeah. It's I I always add things that I would add like bulking agents to it, like like uh maltodextrins or things that things that have bulk, but you don't need it if you the verse whip on it.
In other words, I would do like F50, but if if you're F50, if you're foaming with F50 and your puree is too thin, it doesn't whip as well, right? You're talking about methyl cellulose. Yeah, that's what because that's normally what I use. I've never became a verse whip guy. But you're saying VersaWhip's the answer.
It again, it all depends. And this stuff, it's like our work at WD50, we did back into things. Like we would get the substance and then figure out how to do it. So like it's like we knew a lot of different ways to skin a cat. Yeah.
You know what I mean? Like in I've told you that horrible story, haven't I? No. Which one? It's not about actually skinning it.
Yes. No, it's no, it's like uh I I worked at a hospital and uh and uh we they did animal research and yeah, it was horrible because they're the you know, they there's a room where all the animals go after they're done, and there was a the a barrel of skinned cats. It was the whole most horrible thing I've ever seen. I'm sorry. That's bothered.
So like that phrase, whenever anyone says that phrase too. So yeah, whenever anyone says that phrase, I like I can see it. Right. You know what I mean? Sorry.
You know what I mean? Like it's yeah. There's a lot of different ways to whip water. Uh yeah. There you go.
Um I don't know why I never got into VersaWhip. I guess because you know you put one thing on your tool belt and then you walk away. Sure. Yeah. Um Although interesting thing you just said, people probably missed it, but it's super important to how you guys were working back then.
Backed out of mixes and made your own recipes based on the original substances. And one of your TikTok videos is actually about that in an interesting way. So CP Kelko, who it was the manufacturer of gel-in. Gel and cheaper now because they look they're out of patent. So you can get gel and now other people can make it.
Yeah, now other people can make it. But they used to make a a mix, I forget the name of it. Uh it was called Kelko gel, blah blah blah. But it was a mixture of kappa caragine, and you'll know where I'm going as soon as I say this. Locust bean gum and uh guar.
The the the one that Or Xanthan. Yeah, well, it was like it was it was the mix that that Wiley based his egg yolk one on. Oh yeah. But he backed out and did his own. So if you look up uh Alex's video on how to dip cake pieces in a in a glaze and have it set, like that is similar.
That's a modification of Wiley's recipe. Yeah, modification of this recipe that Wiley came up with to coat. So he would take frozen carrot and was it carrot and he took um carrot juice that was barely thickened with Xanthan gum, and he would freeze it in a demisphere mold, and then he would just pierce that with a needle to pick it up, and then he would dip it in this uh film of kappa carrageenin, had locust bean gum and a little bit of potassium citrate, which helps the the kappa gel. And that and well, that recipe, the CP Kelco original, they were selling it as a gelatin substitute, right? Because the locust bean gum softens the because kappa's brittle and weeps a lot, right?
So you do kappa plus LBG, locust bean gum, and it has more of a gelatin consistency, but it snapsets, unlike uh gelatin. Right. So you can do those tricks. Although I was never very good at it. The thing I would always pop them.
He used to make fun of me. He would make me come in and make a couple, and then I would pop up. No, there's a dexterity element. There's a again, there's a sushi chef master skill to that as well. It's not just the mixture.
Or I would get little blebs. Yeah. Suck. Yeah. He was the only one I think that I only remember him doing it.
I remember him trying to show people and getting frustrated. Anyway, fast forward to today, you have given out the actual recipe for how to make it, right? The original CP Kelko product isn't really available anymore. So I was trying to tell uh my friend Jack who makes jello shots for a living. I was like, oh, there's a decent jello replacement that you could use as vegan.
Uh try, you know, to go find a good kappa LBG mix. But apparently no one makes a good kappa LBG mix anymore. You have to just follow that recipe. Yeah. There you go.
Thank you. Thank you. Trying to be useful. Yeah. Um.
So uh what are we what are we missing? I have a question. Let's do questions. Yeah? Questions?
All right. Oh, yeah. We're only 15 minutes left. Jesus. Uh this is dovetailing into what we're saying before.
Kevin says, Kavan says, uh, hey, looking back now, uh, how do you see the and this by the way dovetails into a piece you wrote for your uh the sweet release. So, you know, go to town. Uh, how do you see the modernist slash molecular cooking wave? I know we hate, yeah. Uh cooking wave that exploded in the 2000s.
What excited you about it at the time, what bothers you about it in hindsight, and uh where have your feelings shifted most over the years. But I'll kick it to you. Yeah, that's a lot. Um what I loved about it in the moment was how um rebellious it was. That it it it felt so new and fresh to me.
And at the same time, what weirdly made me love it more is there was a larger audience that's saying this is bullshit, this is pretentious, this is not food, etc. And I just found it incredibly exciting. Um, you know, to eat a dish, but then not know how it was put together and have that extra joy of figuring that out. How do you get a liquid center in that and how do you make that hot? Like I that's what was thrilling about it for me.
Um all these years later, I don't think we have the attention span to care about that which makes me a little bit sad um but so doing it now would feel a lot more I don't know it's like a dated magic trick things have become so spectacular and we're we become so visual because of social media I don't know that we can pay attention to to such nuances um what about some of the bigger moves though like what about the vacuum dice cream I don't even know that one didn't you didn't you used to do that at that point oh that like the the inflated yeah it ends up having the texture of ancient food cake I don't even know how that works why doesn't it melt? What the hell's going on? I don't even know how the hell that works. Yeah I I don't know and the other interesting thing too is like to your point about Wiley hand making those eggs with kapa carrageenan I made everything by hand so I do miss a simpler time in my life where that's what that's all I was worried about. I like how that's the simpler time.
It was it was so much fun I I got to my job was to make awesome desserts and humble other pastry chefs. Like that was the that was the gig and that's really magical now I have like rent and bills and we've been through COVID and I have two kids and like it's like I I don't I have a lot of real problems. At least not so far. No so um and I still all those techniques are important for me but now it's it's less about the act of doing it and it's more about I'm trying to get something done and oh I know how to. Do you get the same joy out of someone else being able to execute an idea in your world that you would executing it yourself?
Is it different? Do you get the same kind of jazz when like the team can do something awesome? Well, that's that's it now, right? It's not about what you can do because you can't do it anymore. It's about how well can you give instruction, how well can you build the machine?
So like at you know at M Payon, we we really try to smash out ambiguity and mysticism. So we we make our guacamole, for example, we don't mash it, we push it through a quarter inch grid. And when we say overmashed or undermashed, what does that mean? What we mean is that if I can't see both colors of the avocado, if I can't see the vivid green exterior and the olive interior, that's what that means. So now we're all on the same page.
You know, we so we just really try to avoid well, that's good, that's not good, that's too much, that's not enough. It just comes down to like measuring everything. Right. So I I find passion in that. Yeah, for sure.
But it is nice to be able, I mean, like I wish I was better at I I try to bulletproof stuff as much as I can, but it's such a pain in the ass. So it's worth your time. It it's worth it being a pain in the butt because if the idea is no one can do it but you and you're going it will you will burn yourself out. You just will. Yeah.
And then also when you're not there, which is gonna happen, you don't trust what's coming out. No, which sucks. No, 100%. Yeah. Yeah.
So that that's not and your team will know that. They'll feel that. And that's not a good feeling either. Yeah. You need to empower them.
So something else you touched on in your sub stack uh that I would like to get to, because you're one of the maybe 10 people who has a really good perspective on this. In the 2000s was kind of a magic time to be a pastry chef. Right? Like pastry chef was getting, they were getting a lot of buzz. The high end, like the the whatever you want to what do you what do you call these things here?
Three stars, four stars. What do you call what do you call a high end restaurant here? Four? Because New York Times using New York. New York Times is four.
Yeah, you but you use New York for well whatever, whatever however rating system you want to be like the the high end fine dining stuff, they were not only spending money on pastry chefs that were personalities, but pushing them to media. And as you said in your in your piece it they're still niche but pastry chefs have net pastry chefs in restaurants. Right now to be a famous pastry chef you are an influencer, you have a bakery, right? You know, uh you're on a TV show, you know, you have a you have a book. But back then you could just be kicking butt at a great restaurant and people knew who you were like an educated diner in New York City in the in like 20 2009 could name probably eight pastry chefs.
You know 100%. You know what I mean? Well so what's changed? And again to to your point so when I came to New York that you know the three hot shots were you know Johnny Uzzini from Jean George. Sam Mason at well left WD to do Taylor.
Will Goldfarb now what's interesting about all three of them they didn't leave to open they didn't all go to open bakeries. You know what I mean? Pichayong like they they opened restaurants. They were pastry chefs opening restaurants. So that was a really cool time for me to come to New York say we were excited about that and Wiley kind of cultivated the best environment for it in my opinion.
He really did um invest in it. Yeah so it's different now I think what we want from restaurants is different now. I think the things that we're like like I told you earlier like the cheeseburger thing I think we want it just seems like it like every the hot new restaurant right now they're all sort of vaguely dark warm and handsome and they all have very like blunt brute force you know and I'm not no effect but like corner store corner bar it's almost like call it restaurant bar or bar restaurant like it like call it it it's like these like and that's where we're flocking to and that's where and if you look at the menu it's you know it's chicken nuggets it just is that that and I'm not saying it as an insult I'm just as a commentary that's where we're at and that's what we want. So I think we're really in this this safety mode right now which is interesting. Have you had an actual chicken nugget in the last 10 years?
I have not I have I make the best chicken nuggets because of this thing. It's like said I'm a culinary director of a hotel and I was like I'm gonna make six piece chicken nuggets really hard to make actually because you have to get the force meat right you have to make tempora wrong that was what I figured out the McDonald's chicken nugget they're making a a tempora wrong and it has turmeric in it for the color it's it's like a whole wild thing. But they're battered not breaded they're not like they're not I mean they're battered. Uh-huh yeah they're battered so because in my mind I always think of it as being like a panko like thing but I because I haven't had one in so long. I work so hard on them but like the the place where I'm you know the manor hotel in Soho I'm in charge of you know every F and B outlet of it like culinarily speaking and it's like the whole house chicken nuggets are the number one seller by far.
Like by by a lot. So this is a bad idea what I'm about to say but do you like an old school like fish sausage like with the with the cream with the mousse and making it like keeping it like all emulsified like a f like an old school like fish sausage? Would that make a good nugget? It would. Right.
But no one wants a fish nugget, I'm saying, but like I don't want a fish ball nugget. By the way, there is a company now that makes fish corn dogs. Have you bought these? I have not. They're not quite right.
They're almost there. It's like mozzarella, like but it's the hard fish. It's the it's like the super saree like fish dicks fish. Right. As the as the dog.
We're a meat paste society. You gotta go to Asia where they're they're fish face. What about when you can have both? What about the Fukinese fish ball that's got the got the meat in the middle? I don't even know what that is.
Dude, it's it's a fish ball with meat in the middle, like winning. Yeah, it used to be. I I think a lot of them have closed down, but it used to be that the same block that the Elder Tree Synagogue was on was the Fukinese fish ball capital of the United States. Got it. I don't know how hard it is to be the Fukinese fish ball capital of the United States.
Sounds pretty niche. Yeah. That's my whole life is nicheness. You know what I mean? Like I'm all about that niche.
So you don't think uh well, you wrote in the thing also, people like you don't make money in dessert at a restaurant. You don't. You do not. Um why did they spend money on it back then? Just because they need it to be all things to all people.
I I I I uh I honestly think you had really passionate chefs that cared about that over maximizing the business model. That's what I think it was. Huh. Yeah. All right.
Uh all right, let me see if we've got any more questions here. Oh, sorry, that we'll have to get uh some of these. Oh yeah, do it. Do it. Uh that what uh again, uh from thank you very much.
Uh I love your videos. What in your opinion is the most sandbaggable free form dessert sure to wild guests? Uh i.e. gluten free, nut free, plant based. Uh multiple inspiration.
Welcome. That's a that's a very broad question. He said sandbaggable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I was talking with Dave Chang about sandbagging.
So what he means is being able to make it well in advance and have it be stable. Yeah. Um, you know, gluten free is super easy, nut free super easy. Um vegan tends to throw me off a little bit. Uh just because dairy products are super important to me in my work.
Um yeah, I don't know. It I mean, that if you you could probably well, I guess that's orbe, right? Sorbet, but that's not sandbaggable. You're scooping at the last moment. Uh sorbet's always a great vegan option.
Um, I mean, hell, even that cake that I dipped, I suppose you could make a sponge cake without any. How long will that last? The gel? On the cake. It'll last a couple days.
Yeah, I apologize. I just um I dislike thinking in vegan limitations. Not that I have a problem with veganism, but just eggs are a highly technical, uh function functionally technical ingredient, and so are dairy products. So it's just not how I love to think about food. You know.
Yeah, I it I I I haven't gotten into those disciplines really, because I've never really had to or uh honestly wanted to. Yeah. Well, like I say, I think it's, you know, we uh we're all we all need to work in a zone that makes us want to continue to work. Yeah. Again, it's like fruit is the best dessert, you know what I mean?
Because it's already great. You know, and a lot of um, I guess where I take, and I'm not trying to upset anyone, but uh where I take issue with a lot of the vegan products out there, um, is they're they're highly processed. You know what I mean? They're that they have more bad stuff in them for the sake of making them not animal based. You know what I mean?
And that's all. Yeah. So it's it's tricky. I bet I could make a custard with soy milk and set it with carrageenin. I think that would be vegan.
I think that would be sandbaggable. Yeah, does carrageenin have the same interactions? I think it has similar interactions. I think you can add a little bit of like it, like here. I'm trying to answer and be like make a malted, make a malted soy milk custard with care with iota carrageen.
And you can add a little bit of calcium to it to help the iota set. Soy milk tastes malty already, so adding like malted powder to it might be interesting. Maybe that. Yeah. There you go.
Uh Nibble wrote in and wants to know about my hood, but I'll tell you about my hood after I've installed it. It's been such a pain getting my old hood out. By the way, if you've had uh a squirrel cage blower mounted in your ceiling for 12 years, wear gloves when you take it out of there. Wear gloves. Wear gloves.
Otherwise, you need a second pair of hands to throw away. Uh Nick W, I'll get more on the uh coffee cocktails later. Do you do any uh do you do any infusion work, Alex? Uh you mean in the cocktail world? Yeah.
Sure. All right, so we can both rein in here. Uh Desert Platypus has been doing nitrous infusions with uh 200 proof ethanol. Uh and I've been curious about the best practice for optimizing top note flavors of various classes of ingredients. Umlypus.
First of all, platypus is they don't live in the desert, right? Don't they live underwater? I don't know. I thought they were aquatic. Yeah, they're aquatic.
Uh, but the issue with uh 200 proof is is that like it gets a totally different extraction pattern because you're getting things that are extractable into pure ethanol. Some things need some water to extract. So this is gonna take too long. Do you have anything to say about this? I can't.
But what you're saying makes sense. There's there's fat soluble, water soluble, and alcohol soluble. So when it's only alcohol, you're actually probably missing some of the volatiles. Right. Well, and also some of the bitterants aren't soluble.
Some are, some aren't, right? So, like certain things like had get totally different infusions in pure ethanol versus like like 40 or even like 151 or one of these things, you know what I mean? So you just need to worry about it. Uh do you have any uh herbamante feelings? I have a uh uh Yerba Mate question.
I don't. Me either, but I will say this. I love that I love that soda. That's it. So L.
Butts writes in Has anyone done any experimenting with your mamma mate? There's a company in Australia that sells a yerba mate soda, but it's really expensive here. But the one we get is cheap, Materva. It's the most delicious stream soda you've ever had. And I hate Yerba Mate as an actual drink, like with the gourd.
I went, I bought the gourd, I bought the mate, I bought the straw, I sat there trying to pretend like I could make myself like it. And then I was in uh I was in uh uh what's it called? Um uh Elmago, El Mago def uh de fritas, you know, the the uh Cuban place in Miami, and I was like, all right, I'm gonna try all the sodas. I don't care whether I hate them or not. And I got them a terravin, I was like, oh, good soda.
Yeah, I don't know what's in that stuff, but it is amazing. Yeah, it's real good, but that's not expensive. So anyway, uh Sherry, I only have 12 seconds left, so I'll get to your live fire cooking uh later. And uh Quinn, let's just put the damn darn uh Shazandra spec on the Patreon because no one wants to see me hear me just list a giant list of freaking infusions to put into a non-alcoholic drink. Am I missing anything, Alex?
There's uh I appreciate you coming on. No, come back, too. Come back anytime. Did I did I adequately mention all the things that you're working on? I never know what I can never remember what I've said.
I think we covered a lot. All right, cool. Thanks, Alex. Thanks for coming on. Come back anytime.
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